Guild Wars 2

Thief burst: Steal into backstab.
Steal ~1500 damage.
Backstab: (2255*2.4*952.5/1924)x(1.10*1.15) = 3389.3
Crit: 3344.2*1.873 = 6348.2
Total burst damage: ~7848

If taking executioner and below 50% health: 7617.8+~1500 = ~9118

Mesmer Burst:
Mirror Blade: First hit, 2225*0.7*1047.5/1924 = 848, 2nd hit 886.1.
Crit 1st = 1588.2 2nd = 1659.7

Mind Wrack: (2225*1.15*1047.5/1924)x(1.045*1.3) = 1892.5 per clone (1 clone shatter)
Crit = 3544.7

However IP doubles that to 7089.3
Total mesmer burst: 10337.2

Now there’s a few things to mention.

1. I have no skill coefficient for mug so I chose 1500 as it’s what I was doing on the light golem at 2180 armour, it should do a couple of hundred more.
2. This is done against a 1924 armour target (so zerker/marauder light armour class) so numbers will vary.
3. This doesn’t take into account follow up damage nor other procs like fire/air, panic strike, daze on steal etc.
4. The thief meta build doesn’t pick up it’s burst damage bonus while mesmer does.
5. We’re assuming thief engages with all initiative for max lead attack bonus.
6. We’re assuming mesmer is in melee range and no other target for GS to bounce to but mesmer and target.
7. Mesmer gets not activating skills bonus.

So what’s the point in this? It’s just to show how close they are in burst really. If thief actually picks up executioner they do on average 2.3k more damage on crit on targets below 50% health and hit almost as hard as a mesmer if all mesmer hits crit. This is if all the stars align but what if they don’t?

Thief:
Steal ~1500 damage.
Backstab: (2225*2.4*952.5/1924)x(1.10*1.05) = 3053.4
Total damage = ~4553
Total damage with executioner = 5513

Mesmer:
Mirror Blade: First hit, 2225*0.7*1047.5/1924 = 848, No 2nd hit, wanders off onto something else.
Mind Wrack: (2225*1.15*1047.5/1924)(1.0451.15) = 1674.1 per clone (1 clone shatter)
Damage + mesmer wrack = 3348.3

Total damage = 4196.3

So what went wrong?

Well thief lost about 11% from initiative and backstab didn’t crit. Mug can’t crit so not missing much there.

Mesmer though, well target was attacking so bye bye 15% modifier on mind wrack. Non of it crit either so goodbye lots of damage and there was a 2nd target nearby so the mirror blade hit them instead.

Generally though whether thief burst is successful lies mainly on if backstab crits.

Mesmer it requires a lot of things to crit, both mirror blades and both mind wracks to out burst a thief. If any one of them fails to crit it’s on par with thief burst with executioner. If only half the attacks crit it’s just above thief non executioner damage but well below a crit backstab with executioner. If it all fails to crit it’s the worst of both.

TLDR: Thieves should start using their executioner trait then they really will burst as hard as mesmers.

Edit: Typos and missed the 1 might to thief, ty Shockwave.

Where is the vulnerability and might calculations for mesmers?

It’s also worth then saying about follow up damage.

Thief has heart seeker and the auto attack which inflicts poison and 4s weakness. The enemy also is usually immobilised due to panic strike proc.

Mesmer has mind stab and then a very very poor melee auto on GS. Switching to sword then blurred frenzy is a decent follow up but by that point the game has been given away too so people will walk out of it. Additionally mesmer auto attacks are generally very weak, usually about half what other classes do.

If the maths is a little off and I missed a modifier please let me know and I’ll try to fix it, kinda late here.

Shockwave.1230:

Where is the vulnerability and might calculations for mesmers?

I assumed no might as mesmers generally shatter as soon as the clone is made to land the MW which is with 3 vuln and 0 might. I could add that on too. I also just remembered I missed a stack off thief too.

I might run the numbers again adding 3 might to mesmer and 1 to thief.

apharma.3741:

Shockwave.1230:

Where is the vulnerability and might calculations for mesmers?

I assumed no might as mesmers generally shatter as soon as the clone is made to land the MW which is with 3 vuln and 0 might. I could add that on too. I also just remembered I missed a stack off thief too.

I might run the numbers again adding 3 might to mesmer and 1 to thief.

I’m curious about the whole difference. There’s potentially 6 vuln from mirror blade and potentially 6 might from mirror blade.

You should also have noted that mesmer gets to burst twice as often as thief and can land it from any angle, but has less consistent mobility to land it.

OK so ran the numbers again accounting for might on the mesmer if they shatter after the 3rd bounce and it looks like:

Mirror Blade: First hit, 2225*0.7*1047.5/1924 = 848, 2nd hit 882.3
Crit 1st = 1588.2 2nd = 1652.5

Mind Wrack: (2405*1.15*1047.5/1924)x(1.06*1.3) = 2075 per clone (1 clone shatter)
Crit = 3886.5
However IP doubles that to 7773
Total mesmer burst: 11013.7

Note the mirror blade damage doesn’t really change but the mind wrack does (obviously) however another thing not shown is, if you wait for mirror blade to finish faffing around you may miss the wrack as it gives your opponent time to dodge.

Thing is shockwave, if we start accounting for every little difference we could actually be here all night.

Example, what if mesmer had an extra clone around? That’s a whole new modifier to use and we have to figure out where it’s coming from. What about factoring in time to travel to the target if clone isn’t in melee?

What about dazing first for 5 more vuln and 8 more on interrupt? What about the cast times too? Mirror blade has a long 3/4s cast time, the thieves stuff can be done almost in 1/2s.

There’s a lot of factors in mesmer burst which makes it 1. A pain to calculate and 2. A pain to actually get the most of.

I would also always assume a thief is practised enough to get the backstab just as the mesmer is practised enough to get the mirror blade in melee.

apharma.3741:

Thing is shockwave, if we start accounting for every little difference we could actually be here all night.

Example, what if mesmer had an extra clone around? That’s a whole new modifier to use and we have to figure out where it’s coming from. What about factoring in time to travel to the target if clone isn’t in melee?

What about dazing first for 5 more vuln and 8 more on interrupt? What about the cast times too? Mirror blade has a long 3/4s cast time, the thieves stuff can be done almost in 1/2s.

There’s a lot of factors in mesmer burst which makes it 1. A pain to calculate and 2. A pain to actually get the most of.

I would also always assume a thief is practised enough to get the backstab just as the mesmer is practised enough to get the mirror blade in melee.

Yes this is what I’m driving at, simply posting numbers has little meaning by itself. Though I am grateful for being able to see the calculations, so thank you.

True that there are way too many intricacies to get a definitive number for pretty much anything but single hit skills, but it does show just how close these bursts should be on average. Obviously player skill and teammate contributions add to it for even more complexity, but the fact that the numbers are fairly close to each other in even simplified scenarios shows can really highlight over-exaggerations. People claiming they got oneshot by mesmers from stealth with one mirror blade burst would have trouble getting that to happen even in full glass.

You assume 0 starting clones from the mesmer at the start. The mesmer isn’t always going to burst without any clones to start with. The thief on the other hand doesn’t have any way to boost their burst apart from what you’ve already said.

Belial.9350:

You assume 0 starting clones from the mesmer at the start. The mesmer isn’t always going to burst without any clones to start with. The thief on the other hand doesn’t have any way to boost their burst apart from what you’ve already said.

Duh? The clones shatter on who they’re cast on.

If we assume an advantage of existing clones, we also assume an advantage for the thief in that he can switch targets and burst much better than the mesmer who needs to shatter the first set, bring up clones on another target to get that mindwrack on them.

In any scenario where the mesmer has additional existing clones before the burst, there’s been a delay in the burst where the opponent has had the opportunity to simply swing his sword. Clones die to a single autoattack worth of damage.

Who knew, pvp full of people with a campaign for their own class supremacy faking concern for “balance”.

Warriors hits 100b and beats them all, with 0 skill and double health… This makes no sense, seriously

Something else that might have been taken into account is that the thief requires one or two lands. Clones seldom survive/hit for a full burst.

All in all I’d say that thief is a bit weaker on burst, but the poison and dark fields probably make up the difference.

Ithilwen.1529:

Something else that might have been taken into account is that the thief requires one or two lands. Clones seldom survive/hit for a full burst.

All in all I’d say that thief is a bit weaker on burst, but the poison and dark fields probably make up the difference.

And the mobility/escape. And the stealth rezzing. And the stealth group openers.

There’s a problem with trying to compare much after what’s above which would be a stealth burst for both classes.

Mesmer can only follow it up with mind stab and maybe iZerker then they’re pretty much kiting for 12s till the burst is ready. The iZerker is alright but can be cleaved out very easily and both have cool downs.

Thief has initiative and can follow it up with varying amounts of things such as shadowshot if target is running or heartseeker if target is low. Additionally the thief only has to wait out revealed then stealth to be able to backstab again so while it isn’t the full combo of mug into backstab it is 75% of the damage.

That’s also without mentioning the condition of the opponent afterwards. A Mesmer will generally put on vulnerability and that’s it. A thief will put on poison, weakness and the target is dazed, this means follow up heals need to have a cleanse or wait out the poison, follow up damage from the target has a chance to be halved with weakness etc. Thieves will also usually have procd panic strikes too which is a decent immob too so allows for follow up damage nicely.

Additionally I’ve tweaked the numbers again as I forgot about fragility. It makes very little difference at low levels of vulnerability (was about 50 damage to most hits and maybe 200 or so on total damage) but makes a big difference if the target was interrupted with a daze first and had 6vuln from mirror blade before mind wrack. Once again waiting for mirror blade to finish faffing around give the opponent more time to dodge the wrack.

This is why Mesmer burst is annoying to work out, lots of variables and small mods that only get applied to parts of the burst and it all depends on what order the hits all land in.

A Mesmer has ramp up time, delayed skills and have to attack while visible (or at least, the clones are visible). Worst case scenario, clones may even die as they are being set up.

A Thief attack from stealth with instant skills, vanish and repeat the attack half a second later (or be 50m away).

TL;DR Thief wins with no contest.

Weaker burst…maybe that’s the whole point of this thread. Thief burst is no where near what it used to be.

The thief is suppose to be the MASTER of single target burst and it has lost that title to other classes..

Gabriell.4856:

Weaker burst…maybe that’s the whole point of this thread. Thief burst is no where near what it used to be.

The thief is suppose to be the MASTER of single target burst and it has lost that title to other classes..

Yes and no. A thief has the biggest single hit, no ifs, no buts. A Mesmer with a full 4 hit 3 clone mind wrack with mirror blade first will hit way harder but then you need 2 clones in me ee range to begin with and for them not to die.

Even a 2 hit 1 clone mirror blade shatter will hit harder (only about 1k more if thief picks up executioner and gets the executioner bonus) however most of that damage is on the mind wrack and so are most of the damage mods. In fact if you are using a skill when mind wrack hits the burst ends up the same as an executioner thief.

The thread is here to highlight how close they actually are and what a difference executioner makes to backstab (1.3k damage). I don’t have much info on how much damage mug does, the wiki has no coefficient so can only run it off what I get on a light target golem. Additionally thief damage mods affect all attacks, Mesmer only has a MW modifier and fragility which has its own problems.

apharma.3741:

Gabriell.4856:

Weaker burst…maybe that’s the whole point of this thread. Thief burst is no where near what it used to be.

The thief is suppose to be the MASTER of single target burst and it has lost that title to other classes..

Yes and no. A thief has the biggest single hit, no ifs, no buts. A Mesmer with a full 4 hit 3 clone mind wrack with mirror blade first will hit way harder but then you need 2 clones in me ee range to begin with and for them not to die.

Even a 2 hit 1 clone mirror blade shatter will hit harder (only about 1k more if thief picks up executioner and gets the executioner bonus) however most of that damage is on the mind wrack and so are most of the damage mods. In fact if you are using a skill when mind wrack hits the burst ends up the same as an executioner thief.

The thread is here to highlight how close they actually are and what a difference executioner makes to backstab (1.3k damage). I don’t have much info on how much damage mug does, the wiki has no coefficient so can only run it off what I get on a light target golem. Additionally thief damage mods affect all attacks, Mesmer only has a MW modifier and fragility which has its own problems.

I stopped reading at thief has the highest single hit no if or but.

Kill shot damage coef is 3.25 vs thief bs of 2.4.

Maybe you forgot about Churning Earth or Fire Grab?

/shrug

I was meaning of the two classes in the thread. Which is what the thread is about.

If you wanna compare all burst across all classes please do so in another thread, I look forward to seeing the math.

I like how none of mesmers ever mentiones following things when they talk about thief and mesmer dmg:
- bs is single target, shatter is AOE!!!!!!!!… in fact, most of mesmer burst affects multiple targets….the realistic dmg is way higher given that pvp in this game is hardly ever 1v1
- bs requires you to be in melee range, eat all cleave and also get behind the target; shatter doesn’t necessary
- shatter can be activated at any given point as long as it is off CD(you have plenty of time to set it up); bs is gated by stealth (ini, CDs), meaning if you don’t have ini/Cds or gain stealth you can’t execute BS, also you have very limited timeframe to do so as stealth doesn’t last long (w/o commiting long CDs)…. BS will ALWAYS punish thief with revealed debuff; mes burst doesn’t unless mes executed it from stealth.
- there is not a single trait for bs that removes boons, shatter does… traited steal does remove boons however while mes can activate 2 shatters consequentially, thief can’t steal 2-3 times in a row
- why does no mesmer ever take might stacks and vulnerability stacks in consideration? If mes is any good he will have 20 stacks on invul on you. Please show me how thief can do it in such short period of time.
- most of mes burst is done from range; thieves are forced to spent most of the time in melee if they want to do any meaningful dmg; i think risk/reward got completely ignored in the calculation which brings us to exectioner

- good joke, thieves should run it. Yes it is good, problem is, improvisation is kind of must have given how low thief survival. Thieves don’t have luxury like mesmers of having instant invuls, protection (PU), long stun locks that also deal dmg on top of it, extended stealth w/o sacrificing dmg/CC (ini vs separated CDs) and high HP. And please don’t tell me HP doesn’t matter: try to run zerker amulet on mes and on thief in current meta. On mes if you get spiked you still have bit HP left to react; on thief you just get instagibbed.

This comparison is invalid. No Izerker. That Itself will give you 5-6k damage additional.

Also, You are forgetting that we can weapon swap to a blurred frenzy combo.

Another thing you are forgetting is that you can chain f2 to the burst without clones since IP is baseline.

Thieves cannot do that due to the Initiative system.

Mesmers can easily do ~18k damage in one rotation.

Cynz.9437:

I like how none of mesmers ever mentiones following things when they talk about thief and mesmer dmg:
- bs is single target, shatter is AOE!!!!!!!!… in fact, most of mesmer burst affects multiple targets….the realistic dmg is way higher given that pvp in this game is hardly ever 1v1
- bs requires you to be in melee range, eat all cleave and also get behind the target; shatter doesn’t necessary
- shatter can be activated at any given point as long as it is off CD(you have plenty of time to set it up); bs is gated by stealth (ini, CDs), meaning if you don’t have ini/Cds or gain stealth you can’t execute BS, also you have very limited timeframe to do so as stealth doesn’t last long (w/o commiting long CDs)…. BS will ALWAYS punish thief with revealed debuff; mes burst doesn’t unless mes executed it from stealth.
- there is not a single trait for bs that removes boons, shatter does… traited steal does remove boons however while mes can activate 2 shatters consequentially, thief can’t steal 2-3 times in a row
- why does no mesmer ever take might stacks and vulnerability stacks in consideration? If mes is any good he will have 20 stacks on invul on you. Please show me how thief can do it in such short period of time.
- most of mes burst is done from range; thieves are forced to spent most of the time in melee if they want to do any meaningful dmg; i think risk/reward got completely ignored in the calculation which brings us to exectioner

- good joke, thieves should run it. Yes it is good, problem is, improvisation is kind of must have given how low thief survival. Thieves don’t have luxury like mesmers of having instant invuls, protection (PU), long stun locks that also deal dmg on top of it, extended stealth w/o sacrificing dmg/CC (ini vs separated CDs) and high HP. And please don’t tell me HP doesn’t matter: try to run zerker amulet on mes and on thief in current meta. On mes if you get spiked you still have bit HP left to react; on thief you just get instagibbed.

Well PU need a nerf, thats for sure, however you exagerated in a number of things:

As you stated backstab need stealth for using it that its a survival in fact, meaning you cant compare a none stealth shatter with a backstab, since one gives survivility and the other not, thats the trade off and its big. The only logical proper comparation its a stealth shatter vs a backstab, with automaticly sent you to nerfing PU.

You are only given the mesmer strong points but forget to point that thief has more mobility and dodges than mesmer.

If you go to survive a mesmer burst or a backstab we are talking of interpreting the flow of batle, meaning the ability to understand when you are in a perfect spot for been bursted (in other worst you are thinking as the thief/ mesmer at the same time you play):

When you do this, most of the time just one dodge, invuln, etc. will finish the mesmer burst.

With a backstab its way more difficult, the thief have a second chance: fails, evades, invuln doesnt reveal you, and it doesnt depend on getting a good batle moment, a not so short stealth can give you time to create different moments of backstab, meaning its more difficult to make a good thief fail a backstab, that to make a good mesmer fail his burst.

Generally if you dont want to get bursted you have it tougher against thief, even if you can read the enemy.

Shatter its an aoe of only 240 radius and depends of more than one hit, the mesmer burst can hit partially against a slow opponent and he can be saved. That means the bursts are balanced.

The problem its that after the june patch, mesmer got PU and Confunding Sugestions, none shatter or damage multiplicators, base damage ,etc were changed.

Confunding suggestions has now (after nerf) a more limited time for been a problem, however its pretty dangerous the 3 charges the mesmer have.

At the other part the only down side of PU its conquest mode, but as trait in fact its broken.

While numbers and math are thing, I can’t 1 shot some one with thief burst, I can with mesmer.

Hahahha the teef in this thread is unreal.