Guild Wars 2

We all know that AI in GW2 should be reworked, at least in PvP, the way we could do some PvP and not PvE in the mists.

I have few sugestions that could help to tone down the strenght of some powerfull AI Builds.

1) You should be able to ress if you manage to get down a AI pet / Phantasm / spirit weapon / turrets. The reason behind this is the AI makes to much damage / control to a player that sometimes the player that “control” the AI almost dont have to do almost nothing to win the fight. If the AI kills you, you should be able to ress if you kill the AI.

2) AI only should attack a target if their “master” can see the target (line of sight). If the player that controls the AI dont go to the spot were the other player is the AI also shouldn’t go.

3) All hard CC that AI provides should only be used by the player command. Its too easy to let the flesh gollems/ranger pets knock/fear the other player without the player do something to order that. And this is mostly anoying because the AI would try to interrupt your attacks/heals without the player command. This would bring some skill to AI builds.

This should put some pressure and some skill on AI builds.

silentnight warrior.2714:

1) You should be able to ress if you manage to get down a AI pet / Phantasm / spirit weapon / turrets. The reason behind this is the AI makes to much damage / control to a player that sometimes the player that “control” the AI almost dont have to do almost nothing to win the fight. If the AI kills you, you should be able to ress if you kill the AI.

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

1) You should be able to ress if you manage to get down a AI pet / Phantasm / spirit weapon / turrets. The reason behind this is the AI makes to much damage / control to a player that sometimes the player that “control” the AI almost dont have to do almost nothing to win the fight. If the AI kills you, you should be able to ress if you kill the AI.

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol

You got a point there. A work around could be phantasms not being able to attack you if you are in downstate.

I think mesmers, spirit rangers and MM necros should simply be removed from the game .

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

Boy this is misguided, I main MM, so I know what I’m talking about. But honestly, I think you should stop taking enemies’ “advantages” as concrete and realize for that player, AI is a drawback too. Couple facts to set you straight (From an MM’s perspective! Not Ranger.)

1. AI damage for MM is strictly single target. So is our weapons. In group fights we’re near useless.

2. Flesh Golem charge is a 3/4 cast. Not only is it not automatic from the AI, it has a longer cast time than most regular attacks… Rigor Mortis (immob from the bone fiend) is instant, but has to be triggered, and doesn’t go off until the pets next attack ranging anywhere between .001 to 3 seconds, you just don’t know for sure.

3. Pets don’t dodge when the master dodges. In Khilo I can play perfectly and 1 catapult, my entire build is wiped out. Engie wants to throw grenades from up top in the forest keep? I lost.

4. We have no direct control over them. Unless we run away, or attack another target our minions will chase anyone leaving us defenseless (very defenseless btw.)

5. We have 1 CC breaker that has a pre-cast time and doesn’t move with us, and a long cooldown AND sacrifices the minion… On a build that is dead without them…

6. Pets like to take the scenic route when chasing enemies.

7. Pets have normal run speeds and no gap closer abilities (hint, very easily kited)

8. Most people don’t know this, or refuse to listen, but you can turn off enemy nameplates, while keeping Player nameplates checked and minion names will no longer clutter your screen, but you can still see the enemy’s name!

9. No (good) “AI” build for any class has stability, and other than mesmers most have 1 or 0 stun break.

10. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t belong in the game.

11. People still don’t realize this but tab targeting now prioritizes players BEFORE pets. If YOU mess up and target a minion, deselect and tab again, problem fixed.

12. All builds have niches, take away MM’s ability to 1v1 you have a completely dead build that was a symbolic piece of what a necromancer was.

13. Spirits for rangers do not make it an “ai build”… They’re active KILLABLE support signets… They don’t attack. They spawn entities, but they don’t do anything for the spirit except buff. Remove might, stability, protection etc if that’s an issue. And while you’re at it delete 90% of the traits.

14. It’s best if you just stop complaining. Burst is op, conditions are OP, bunkers are OP, stealth is op, evading is op, cc is op, support is OP. What the hell do you want us to do in this game? Sip some tea?

15. The joy of MM isn’t that I have all the AI do the work for me. It isn’t because I have to struggle with all the crap I posted above (Aka, I can lose for stuff out of my hands too) but the joy is from controlling your enemy in order to let a rather dumb army of zombies eat the enemy. Its fun for me, the niche is cool and the feel behind it even cooler. I’ve been MM for about 9 months, at least in its ups and downs I take it for what it is and I’m not a FOTM roller, like a lot of people are.

16. This game isn’t even hard. Usually if you die to AI, you’re just not moving enough, just a little bit will typically do. Pets miss a lot just from basic combat flow, and they die in the same manner. If you’re not trying to control an enemy so an army can get some hits in you’re spamming a few hard hitting burst or aoe condition spells and randomly pressing your evade buttons. Stop pretending AI players have to works so much less than the typical spam-pro.

17. I’m done raging at this.

Oh; but I do agree. Ranger Dog pets need to not have an auto-rotation knock down. I’ll grant you that. It’s really not good for the game. The Wolf fear however is active and the wolf casts it for something like 2 seconds. :/

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I have no idea why quoted me since you didn’t say anything related to what i said.
I’m gonna assume you’re talking about shatter mesmer since that is the best tpvp build.
Spam illusion generating skills? You realize illusion skills are just like every other ability in the game right? I click phantasmal berserker and it can be dodge (two times, unlike other skills), blinded, interrupted, obstructed. You can’t just spam them blindly and run away. Not to mention that most of the damage doesnt come from illusions but from shattering, so tell me how mesmers can just spam illusions and auto attack and run away to win? If you loose to a mesmer doing that I have bad news for you…

Mesmer is not an AI class, when you first encounter the mesmer he has 0 clones. You can tell the different skill animations to look for phantasm summons and interrupt/blind/dodge that. Then, even if you don’t dodge the summon, there is still time to see the illusion show up and react in time to dodge the animation and there you go, the illusion does nothing for the following seconds.

ahuba.6430:

some stuff

I never said anything about illusions doing radonkulous damage whether from shatter or the phantasms themselves nor about them being countered by dodge blinds and whatnots. However I am complaining about how AI system works and how AI clutter makes a mess out of a PVP scenario where a 5v5 matchup becomes 5v30 or 5v20 because of the ridiculous number of AI certain classes can produce, a.k.a. Pet Wars 2.

ronpierce.2760:

Boy this is misguided, I main MM, so I know what I’m talking about. But honestly, I think you should stop taking enemies’ “advantages” as concrete and realize for that player, AI is a drawback too. Couple facts to set you straight (From an MM’s perspective! Not Ranger.)

1. AI damage for MM is strictly single target. So is our weapons. In group fights we’re near useless.

2. Flesh Golem charge is a 3/4 cast. Not only is it not automatic from the AI, it has a longer cast time than most regular attacks… Rigor Mortis (immob from the bone fiend) is instant, but has to be triggered, and doesn’t go off until the pets next attack ranging anywhere between .001 to 3 seconds, you just don’t know for sure.

3. Pets don’t dodge when the master dodges. In Khilo I can play perfectly and 1 catapult, my entire build is wiped out. Engie wants to throw grenades from up top in the forest keep? I lost.

4. We have no direct control over them. Unless we run away, or attack another target our minions will chase anyone leaving us defenseless (very defenseless btw.)

5. We have 1 CC breaker that has a pre-cast time and doesn’t move with us, and a long cooldown AND sacrifices the minion… On a build that is dead without them…

6. Pets like to take the scenic route when chasing enemies.

7. Pets have normal run speeds and no gap closer abilities (hint, very easily kited)

8. Most people don’t know this, or refuse to listen, but you can turn off enemy nameplates, while keeping Player nameplates checked and minion names will no longer clutter your screen, but you can still see the enemy’s name!

9. No (good) “AI” build for any class has stability, and other than mesmers most have 1 or 0 stun break.

10. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t belong in the game.

11. People still don’t realize this but tab targeting now prioritizes players BEFORE pets. If YOU mess up and target a minion, deselect and tab again, problem fixed.

12. All builds have niches, take away MM’s ability to 1v1 you have a completely dead build that was a symbolic piece of what a necromancer was.

13. Spirits for rangers do not make it an “ai build”… They’re active KILLABLE support signets… They don’t attack. They spawn entities, but they don’t do anything for the spirit except buff. Remove might, stability, protection etc if that’s an issue. And while you’re at it delete 90% of the traits.

14. It’s best if you just stop complaining. Burst is op, conditions are OP, bunkers are OP, stealth is op, evading is op, cc is op, support is OP. What the hell do you want us to do in this game? Sip some tea?

15. The joy of MM isn’t that I have all the AI do the work for me. It isn’t because I have to struggle with all the crap I posted above (Aka, I can lose for stuff out of my hands too) but the joy is from controlling your enemy in order to let a rather dumb army of zombies eat the enemy. Its fun for me, the niche is cool and the feel behind it even cooler. I’ve been MM for about 9 months, at least in its ups and downs I take it for what it is and I’m not a FOTM roller, like a lot of people are.

16. This game isn’t even hard. Usually if you die to AI, you’re just not moving enough, just a little bit will typically do. Pets miss a lot just from basic combat flow, and they die in the same manner. If you’re not trying to control an enemy so an army can get some hits in you’re spamming a few hard hitting burst or aoe condition spells and randomly pressing your evade buttons. Stop pretending AI players have to works so much less than the typical spam-pro.

17. I’m done raging at this.

In my sugestions combat with AI stays the same but it gives more skill to the player and less dependency on how the AI does the work for the players.
Its a good change and it could bring other builds to the game, less cluster and more PvP.

Edit: The target system still sucks and is even worst than before imo.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing (mesmer here). But you/OP are asking for a complete overhaul. I just don’t see that happening. I prefer the “old” mesmer, but this is what we’ve got. Phantasms are an integral part; as are rangers pets … with everything that follows. If you want to tone that down, you have to re-design the classes entirely.

Poxxia.1547:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing (mesmer here). But you/OP are asking for a complete overhaul. I just don’t see that happening. I prefer the “old” mesmer, but this is what we’ve got. Phantasms are an integral part; as are rangers pets … with everything that follows. If you want to tone that down, you have to re-design the classes entirely.

It is only needed some modifications: they only should attack when the owner have LoS to the target (the owner must move and not stay still, no more cast and forget).

They should not attack downed players because they interrupt the healing DS skill without the player hit the downed player (the owner should go there to stomp). Or if they still hit you you should ress if you kill one AI.

All hard CC should change place with the skill that the player commands so AI dont CC you without user interference. It promotes skill play.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Poxxia.1547:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing (mesmer here). But you/OP are asking for a complete overhaul. I just don’t see that happening. I prefer the “old” mesmer, but this is what we’ve got. Phantasms are an integral part; as are rangers pets … with everything that follows. If you want to tone that down, you have to re-design the classes entirely.

It is only needed some modifications: they only should attack when the owner have LoS to the target (the owner must move and not stay still, no more cast and forget).

They should not attack downed players because they interrupt the healing DS skill without the player hit the downed player (the owner should go there to stomp). Or if they still hit you you should ress if you kill one AI.

All hard CC should change place with the skill that the player commands so AI dont CC you without user interference. It promotes skill play.

Nope.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Poxxia.1547:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing (mesmer here). But you/OP are asking for a complete overhaul. I just don’t see that happening. I prefer the “old” mesmer, but this is what we’ve got. Phantasms are an integral part; as are rangers pets … with everything that follows. If you want to tone that down, you have to re-design the classes entirely.

It is only needed some modifications: they only should attack when the owner have LoS to the target (the owner must move and not stay still, no more cast and forget).

They should not attack downed players because they interrupt the healing DS skill without the player hit the downed player (the owner should go there to stomp). Or if they still hit you you should ress if you kill one AI.

All hard CC should change place with the skill that the player commands so AI dont CC you without user interference. It promotes skill play.

I don’t think you fully understand the implications of your suggestions (nor do I, but I understand some of them, at least).
For all mesmers/rangers pets do a large portion of their damage. Traits and even trait-lines evolve around that. Damage on DS is a big part of the game, and if suddenly phantasms and pets can’t do damage on DS it has a major impact.
But you want to touch this and don’t by a word mention various classes access to “safe-stomps”. Nor various classes pressure on DS. AoE on a downed player is not really a mesmers biggest feature (think engineers here), nor is wading through pools of AoE/spammed condis. Ideally we all stomps, but mesmers are for the most part quite fragile.

The suggestion of making killing an AI resulting in a res is horribly unbalanced considering how fragile some of the AI is. It makes no sense … sorry, but I can’t put it any other way. It would require phantasms/clones to be much sturdier, would completely alter the way mesmer works and would if anything promote building around AI.

I guess the second part is aimed at rangers. And as a former ranger, I would have welcomed that change, but it would most likely make rangers stronger.

In short: I have to agree with Alissah.

Poxxia.1547:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Poxxia.1547:

Gallrvaghn.4921:

ahuba.6430:

phantasms die in like 2 hits lol
this would just make teamfights alot more random than they already are with all the rallys popping around without people knowing exactly why. Phantasms dont last more than 2 seconds in team fights, it would completely break the game.

Phantasms and clones are so easily spat out by mesmers, there’s not much of a risk or loss in trying to spam illusion generating skills whenever they’re up. They’re part of the AI clutter that infests PVP and now even the minimap but that’s a whole different topic.

Summons in this game are too much AI dependent and players abuse this system. I’m not saying they’re OP but the advantages of having so many AI running around knowing that their owners do not do much of the work other than kite them here and there because they can just auto-follow and auto attack a target to death plus the clutter and chaos and mess they cause when these AI pile up are just ridiculous.

I am not disagreeing (mesmer here). But you/OP are asking for a complete overhaul. I just don’t see that happening. I prefer the “old” mesmer, but this is what we’ve got. Phantasms are an integral part; as are rangers pets … with everything that follows. If you want to tone that down, you have to re-design the classes entirely.

It is only needed some modifications: they only should attack when the owner have LoS to the target (the owner must move and not stay still, no more cast and forget).

They should not attack downed players because they interrupt the healing DS skill without the player hit the downed player (the owner should go there to stomp). Or if they still hit you you should ress if you kill one AI.

All hard CC should change place with the skill that the player commands so AI dont CC you without user interference. It promotes skill play.

I don’t think you fully understand the implications of your suggestions (nor do I, but I understand some of them, at least).
For all mesmers/rangers pets do a large portion of their damage. Traits and even trait-lines evolve around that. Damage on DS is a big part of the game, and if suddenly phantasms and pets can’t do damage on DS it has a major impact.
But you want to touch this and don’t by a word mention various classes access to “safe-stomps”. Nor various classes pressure on DS. AoE on a downed player is not really a mesmers biggest feature (think engineers here), nor is wading through pools of AoE/spammed condis. Ideally we all stomps, but mesmers are for the most part quite fragile.

The suggestion of making killing an AI resulting in a res is horribly unbalanced considering how fragile some of the AI is. It makes no sense … sorry, but I can’t put it any other way. It would require phantasms/clones to be much sturdier, would completely alter the way mesmer works and would if anything promote building around AI.

I guess the second part is aimed at rangers. And as a former ranger, I would have welcomed that change, but it would most likely make rangers stronger.

In short: I have to agree with Alissah.

Yes i understand but you need to have drawbacks when you use AI. If AI hits you, you should be able to ress if you kill them. On the mesmer case it should not work that way because phantasms are not that sturdy, but they deal a lot of damage and there should be some drawback to use them too. Thats why i sugested they wont hit you in DS mode making the mesmer going there to stomp, and dont forget mesmers have ways to stomp safely (f4).
There is no need of such rework of classes with that sugestions. Combat stays the same, AI stays the same. What change is the player positioning and the need to press keys in the right time.
As i said it will bring more skill, more counters, less AI spam and more PvP.

Most AI builds already lack in competitive PVP. Hands down, they’re already crippled. Your suggestions would wipe them from the game. Also you didn’t read what I said obviously because you’d realize your points and information was wrong. All of the minion’s specials (CC or otherwise) is already triggered by the master, not automatic. Rezzing off minions would be broken as all HELL and anyone who brought MM to WvW would literally get flamed to death. It would be a literal NIGHTMARE. I listed a TON of drawbacks to running AI.
- AI mechanics are hard to handle
- lack of stability in all AI builds.
- Lack of CC breakers
- Lack of on demand removal.
- Weakness to AI.
- Crippled without them.
- Lack of control.
- They don’t dodge with the master. (One shot aoes wipe entire builds.)
- Terrain issues. (Did you know the 50 second cd 3/4 cast time Golem charge (you keep saying is automatic) can get stuck on a pebble and do nothing?)
- They have huge-mid combat cast times to resummon. (1.5 sec cast times for 5 minions is 7.5 seconds of nothing but trying to get out your minions, after being moa’d or heavily AoEd, there’s no recovering from that. Also A thief can kill a necro with no stability, no mass evades, no CC breaks etc in that time… kitten can almost anyone else…)
- MM have to worry about more buttons than most other builds. 5 summons, each have its own additional ability (10 buttons), 2 swaps, and DS (3 weapon sets) which is about 26 buttons (Cause DS f1), AND life force gauging compared to say a warrior that has 16, one of which is a heal that no one presses…

But you ignore all of this and keep saying the same incorrect points…

silentnight warrior.2714:

Yes i understand but you need to have drawbacks when you use AI. If AI hits you, you should be able to ress if you kill them. On the mesmer case it should not work that way because phantasms are not that sturdy, but they deal a lot of damage and there should be some drawback to use them too. Thats why i sugested they wont hit you in DS mode making the mesmer going there to stomp, and dont forget mesmers have ways to stomp safely (f4).
There is no need of such rework of classes with that sugestions. Combat stays the same, AI stays the same. What change is the player positioning and the need to press keys in the right time.
As i said it will bring more skill, more counters, less AI spam and more PvP.

AI has no place in competitive pvp (imo). But now it IS here, so we work with what we have. Understand this: Even if we agree on the issue (one of many issues imho), we don’t agree on the solution.

Mesmers have distortion .. with 3 clones up it can make you safe-stomp most of the time (as do most other classes btw). True. But you make it the only option for mesmers … and that is just plain wrong imo. Mesmers pressure on downed state is not what I regard anything stellar already. Even more: Mesmers are quite vulnerable to going in and stomping amid AoE and condis flying around. I can’t even see the issue here.

I have bolded your claim … but I can’t find any justification for it. It is “just” your opinion. As I said: We disagree on the solution to the issue.
It won’t mean less AI for sure, it will just be a nerf, making mesmers incredible bad when someone goes down, and even being borderline a burden (understatement imo).

As I perceive this, you want to punish the use of AI, making it less favorable and hence promote less use of AI.
Imho all you obtain is punish classes who have AI no matter what they do. Overall it becomes “just a nerf”, nothing else. Nothing interesting, just a nerf. If you had suggested giving more dmg to mesmers and less to phantasms, that might have been interesting.

Mesmers are even one of the more advanced classes opening up for interesting play to both play and play against … again it is my opinion – I obviously like the class, despite the AI (or at least prefer it over other classes, which are just plain dumb imo).

In short (repeating myself): No … again.

i wish pvp was player vs player and player vs pet… oh well -_-

i don’t agree with point 1 though, mesmers would be rally bots

a t s e.9614:

I think mesmers, spirit rangers and MM necros should simply be removed from the game .

spirits attack? i must play the wrong game.. never noticed it.

Another small point; if you take a different angle view. Removing AI actually lowers the general skill cap of players. AI require a different style of play to beat (usually from kiting/multiple awareness), and removing an entire way of play makes the game easier on YOU, right? Well, that means you’re dumbing down combat so you only ever have to focus on 1 or 2 things (which even with AI generally, you only need to look at 1 or 2 things). So removing AI doesn’t make the game more dynamic, its refusing to learn to deal with various situations. Hell, I hate being locked down and never moving, its way more frustrating than seeing a few weak summoned mobs hitting me for 200 damage, but I’m not like “hey lets remove all stuns, chills, immobilizes, and dazes”. Simply because that is dumbing down the game, not making people have to play better. In short, its a niche, and like with all niches you have to learn to adapt and deal with it. AI is not hurting the game any more than people refusing to adapt and learn are hurting the game.

Poxxia.1547:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Yes i understand but you need to have drawbacks when you use AI. If AI hits you, you should be able to ress if you kill them. On the mesmer case it should not work that way because phantasms are not that sturdy, but they deal a lot of damage and there should be some drawback to use them too. Thats why i sugested they wont hit you in DS mode making the mesmer going there to stomp, and dont forget mesmers have ways to stomp safely (f4).
There is no need of such rework of classes with that sugestions. Combat stays the same, AI stays the same. What change is the player positioning and the need to press keys in the right time.
As i said it will bring more skill, more counters, less AI spam and more PvP.

AI has no place in competitive pvp (imo). But now it IS here, so we work with what we have. Understand this: Even if we agree on the issue (one of many issues imho), we don’t agree on the solution.

Mesmers have distortion .. with 3 clones up it can make you safe-stomp most of the time (as do most other classes btw). True. But you make it the only option for mesmers … and that is just plain wrong imo. Mesmers pressure on downed state is not what I regard anything stellar already. Even more: Mesmers are quite vulnerable to going in and stomping amid AoE and condis flying around. I can’t even see the issue here.

I have bolded your claim … but I can’t find any justification for it. It is “just” your opinion. As I said: We disagree on the solution to the issue.
It won’t mean less AI for sure, it will just be a nerf, making mesmers incredible bad when someone goes down, and even being borderline a burden (understatement imo).

As I perceive this, you want to punish the use of AI, making it less favorable and hence promote less use of AI.
Imho all you obtain is punish classes who have AI no matter what they do. Overall it becomes “just a nerf”, nothing else. Nothing interesting, just a nerf. If you had suggested giving more dmg to mesmers and less to phantasms, that might have been interesting.

Mesmers are even one of the more advanced classes opening up for interesting play to both play and play against … again it is my opinion – I obviously like the class, despite the AI (or at least prefer it over other classes, which are just plain dumb imo).

In short (repeating myself): No … again.

Everyone have right to have a opinion. I respect yours. Still, something must be done to AI in this game.

Edit: Imo all AI builds should be strong in PvE, but they cannot be meta builds in PvP.

I don’t think AI needs to be removed, but if it’s AI that’s doing most of your damage, then that’s a big problem because AI is extremely potent in chasing targets and sticking on them. Kiting is not an option in combat because you are much slower.

MM necros, spirit rangers are the main culprits here obviously. In my opinion, if AI is to do damage, then that damage should be lower than the damage coming from weapon skills.

I’ve attached a screen shot here of my death breakdown from fighting a spirit ranger once.

EVERYTHING on there was automated, from the burning (via sun spirit) to physical dmg + bleeding (via auto attack), to the pet’s auto attack.

How exactly does this promote skillful play? 14k from burning, 12k from bleeds, 3.5k auto attack dmg and all you have to do is have your sun spirit up and have your pet follow me while SB #1 is on autoattack. Not to mention storm spirit’s call lightning can crit a medium armor for 7k with absolutely no power needed, just full investment in condi dmg and toughness. I would love to know, because as a thief I have to pretty much use every weapon skill/utility smartly just to survive and fight against a spirit ranger / mm necro.

You want to argue that spirit rangers/mms are useless in team fights, but they offer body blocks as well as other utilities (more so spirit rangers), group burning/proc and res?

silentnight warrior.2714:

There’s nothing wrong with them being meta builds. Nor should we say outright what should and should not be allowed to play in high tier. If you’re good ALL builds should be “meta” THATS balance. You refusing to learn to fight something is not. I hate burst. I think anything that can take something from 100% to 0% in less than 4 seconds should never exist in any MMO. I think condition damage should not exist beyond light damage, and conditions should be only for utility. But oh well. You just learn to deal with what you have. The phrase “x should never be viable” is a very short sighted comment. Have you noticed how represented Mesmers, Spirit Guardians and MM are in tPvP? Hint: They’re not. They’re already NOT meta… Maybe if they were meta you’d be forced to actually learn how to deal with them rather than raging when you finally do see one. >_>:

Rangers made it into the meta but not because AI… They made it in because they could spread the most powerful DoT in the game in an condition meta. Their spirits weren’t hitting people and keeping people from rezzing…

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t think AI needs to be removed, but if it’s AI that’s doing most of your damage, then that’s a big problem because AI is extremely potent in chasing targets and sticking on them. Kiting is not an option in combat because you are much slower.

MM necros, spirit rangers are the main culprits here obviously. In my opinion, if AI is to do damage, then that damage should be lower than the damage coming from weapon skills.

I’ve attached a screen shot here of my death breakdown from fighting a spirit ranger once.

EVERYTHING on there was automated, from the burning (via sun spirit) to physical dmg + bleeding (via auto attack), to the pet’s auto attack.

How exactly does this promote skillful play? 14k from burning, 12k from bleeds, 3.5k auto attack dmg and all you have to do is have your sun spirit up and have your pet follow me while SB #1 is on autoattack. I would love to know, because as a thief I have to pretty much use every weapon skill/utility smartly just to survive and fight against a spirit ranger / mm necro.

You want to argue that spirit rangers/mms are useless in team fights, but they offer body blocks as well as other utilities (more so spirit rangers), group burning/proc and res?

Spirit rangers are not bad in team fights, in fact they CAN shine there, hence the buff spread. However, that’s not an AI issues. You’re complaining that Shortbow consists of mostly 1 spam (not an AI issue), and that the burn is too potent for a buff (not and AI issue, its a buff light might is, its just strong), and then the pet that ranked under all the rest. Most pets don’t hit as hard as ranger pets, that’s the whole idea behind ranger is fighting with their pet. I don’t even play a ranger and I know that ranger itself suffers due to having that dumb AI pet because their personal attacks/damage suffers to compensate for it. You need to look at what you’re complaining about, its not “ai”, your issues are that spirit ranger shortbow is bland and that the spirit’s “support” buff is too powerful. None of which is an AI issue…

ronpierce.2760:

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t think AI needs to be removed, but if it’s AI that’s doing most of your damage, then that’s a big problem because AI is extremely potent in chasing targets and sticking on them. Kiting is not an option in combat because you are much slower.

MM necros, spirit rangers are the main culprits here obviously. In my opinion, if AI is to do damage, then that damage should be lower than the damage coming from weapon skills.

I’ve attached a screen shot here of my death breakdown from fighting a spirit ranger once.

EVERYTHING on there was automated, from the burning (via sun spirit) to physical dmg + bleeding (via auto attack), to the pet’s auto attack.

How exactly does this promote skillful play? 14k from burning, 12k from bleeds, 3.5k auto attack dmg and all you have to do is have your sun spirit up and have your pet follow me while SB #1 is on autoattack. I would love to know, because as a thief I have to pretty much use every weapon skill/utility smartly just to survive and fight against a spirit ranger / mm necro.

You want to argue that spirit rangers/mms are useless in team fights, but they offer body blocks as well as other utilities (more so spirit rangers), group burning/proc and res?

Spirit rangers are not bad in team fights, in fact they CAN shine there, hence the buff spread. However, that’s not an AI issues. You’re complaining that Shortbow consists of mostly 1 spam (not an AI issue), and that the burn is too potent for a buff (not and AI issue, its a buff light might is, its just strong), and then the pet that ranked under all the rest. Most pets don’t hit as hard as ranger pets, that’s the whole idea behind ranger is fighting with their pet. I don’t even play a ranger and I know that ranger itself suffers due to having that dumb AI pet because their personal attacks/damage suffers to compensate for it. You need to look at what you’re complaining about, its not “ai”, your issues are that spirit ranger shortbow is bland and that the spirit’s “support” buff is too powerful. None of which is an AI issue…

It seems like you define AI simply for pets/minions/phantasms.

I define AI from everything like pets/minions/phantasms to everything that happens on the passive end…because guess what? It’s not done by player’s choice – it’s done via the system.

Call it what you want, AI or just problems with passive abilities, but those things promote dull, and unskillful gameplay. I have no problem being outplayed due to reflexes and such (i.e: being interrupted right before I heal) but when the enemy kills me with things that he didn’t even purposely intend on doing, and all he has to do is position himself around his pets, auto attack me and occasionally lay down a water field and leap through it…it makes the matchup very stale considering how much I have to do to fight them in comparison.

Amaterasu.6280:

I don’t think AI needs to be removed, but if it’s AI that’s doing most of your damage, then that’s a big problem because AI is extremely potent in chasing targets and sticking on them. Kiting is not an option in combat because you are much slower.

MM necros, spirit rangers are the main culprits here obviously. In my opinion, if AI is to do damage, then that damage should be lower than the damage coming from weapon skills.

I’ve attached a screen shot here of my death breakdown from fighting a spirit ranger once.

EVERYTHING on there was automated, from the burning (via sun spirit) to physical dmg + bleeding (via auto attack), to the pet’s auto attack.

How exactly does this promote skillful play? 14k from burning, 12k from bleeds, 3.5k auto attack dmg and all you have to do is have your sun spirit up and have your pet follow me while SB #1 is on autoattack. Not to mention storm spirit’s call lightning can crit a medium armor for 7k with absolutely no power needed, just full investment in condi dmg and toughness. I would love to know, because as a thief I have to pretty much use every weapon skill/utility smartly just to survive and fight against a spirit ranger / mm necro.

You want to argue that spirit rangers/mms are useless in team fights, but they offer body blocks as well as other utilities (more so spirit rangers), group burning/proc and res?

funny post. so the spirits are attacking u? do u play gw2? u complain the pet does to much dmg without traits spending in? u havent read 1 post in ranger forum it seems, the pet hit chance is very low for a moving target. the next thing is u complain about bleedings from auto? i hope u know facetanking them put 0 bleeds on u. it seems the spirit ranger outplayed u.

if the spirits are such a great danger, why u hasnt killed them?

Well, perhaps its a little known fact, but short bow only applies bleeds if you’re facing away from them. So if you’re letting them flank/backshoot you that does sound like you got outplayed. Shortbow doesn’t apply bleeds unless you face away. If he used axe AND shortbow, he didn’t have a sword (loss of like 2 evades, so back to the no defenses thing). Pet condi damage isn’t fantastic so…… Do the math, bud, you were taking shots to the back of the head, you were likely going to lose regardless..

ronpierce.2760:

Well, perhaps its a little known fact, but short bow only applies bleeds if you’re facing away from them. So if you’re letting them flank/backshoot you that does sound like you got outplayed. Shortbow doesn’t apply bleeds unless you face away. If he used axe AND shortbow, he didn’t have a sword (loss of like 2 evades, so back to the no defenses thing). Pet condi damage isn’t fantastic so…… Do the math, bud, you were taking shots to the back of the head, you were likely going to lose regardless..

yeah my talking.. but u know why thinking about faults on playerside if u can complain about ai… common the pet hit him for 1.9k.. thats 99% of the dmg the ranger did or not?

hooma.9642:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, perhaps its a little known fact, but short bow only applies bleeds if you’re facing away from them. So if you’re letting them flank/backshoot you that does sound like you got outplayed. Shortbow doesn’t apply bleeds unless you face away. If he used axe AND shortbow, he didn’t have a sword (loss of like 2 evades, so back to the no defenses thing). Pet condi damage isn’t fantastic so…… Do the math, bud, you were taking shots to the back of the head, you were likely going to lose regardless..

yeah my talking.. but u know why thinking about faults on playerside if u can complain about ai… common the pet hit him for 1.9k.. thats 99% of the dmg the ranger did or not?

Wow.. nice catch. I didn’t even see that… Seriously the pet did a grand total of 1.9k damage to you and that was AI winning?!?! Are you serious?!

ronpierce.2760:

hooma.9642:

ronpierce.2760:

Well, perhaps its a little known fact, but short bow only applies bleeds if you’re facing away from them. So if you’re letting them flank/backshoot you that does sound like you got outplayed. Shortbow doesn’t apply bleeds unless you face away. If he used axe AND shortbow, he didn’t have a sword (loss of like 2 evades, so back to the no defenses thing). Pet condi damage isn’t fantastic so…… Do the math, bud, you were taking shots to the back of the head, you were likely going to lose regardless..

yeah my talking.. but u know why thinking about faults on playerside if u can complain about ai… common the pet hit him for 1.9k.. thats 99% of the dmg the ranger did or not?

Wow.. nice catch. I didn’t even see that… Seriously the pet did a grand total of 1.9k damage to you and that was AI winning?!?! Are you serious?!

to be fair he complains about that burning too. but to be honest he was tanking the aa with his back and torch would do the same dmg.

the funny part is. the 1.9k dmg from pet are from 3 pet attacks. he must have stand still the whole fight that the pet hits with 3 attacks. only the first leap/ knockdown normaly hits.

Well I said the BUFF (not the AI) may be a bit too strong because of how well it scales with Condition damage. But that isn’t an AI issue. the buff is just too good. And it’s being nerfed. The bleeding just shows how many arrows he took to the back of the head.

ronpierce.2760:

Well I said the BUFF (not the AI) may be a bit too strong because of how well it scales with Condition damage. But that isn’t an AI issue. the buff is just too good. And it’s being nerfed. The bleeding just shows how many arrows he took to the back of the head.

Someone needs to go check the angle required for rangers to hit bleeding is, it only has a nonbleed angle of 60degrees at the front. Thats why when you’re facing a ranger and either of you strafe you still get bleed stacks. You need to not counter grievences with put downs like “arrows to the back of the head” when you dont know what you’re talking about.. But then you probably dont notice cause your minions are eating all the condis up on automatic.

Hurr, cause I only play MM. What point are you trying to make? A, it says from the sides or back, thus it sounds like a 90 degree angle, but regardless. That doesn’t make his AI any more of the problem. So yes, he was poorly aligned, got taken out by a bow, and AI didn’t kill him, which is what this whole thread is about. Go make a new thread if you want to complain shortbow is too powerful now.

ronpierce.2760:

Hurr, cause I only play MM. What point are you trying to make? A, it says from the sides or back, thus it sounds like a 90 degree angle, but regardless. That doesn’t make his AI any more of the problem. So yes, he was poorly aligned, got taken out by a bow, and AI didn’t kill him, which is what this whole thread is about. Go make a new thread if you want to complain shortbow is too powerful now.

The point im making is that you have an interest in arguing for AI and have shown you’ll make stuff up to knock ppl’s points, basicly you shouldn’t be trusted when it comes to discussing AI.

No; if he had THAT much bleeding, he did take take more hits than he should have. We also don’t know what class he was. Say; mesmers spend a lot of time running in the opposite direction when summoning phants or gaining grounds, which causes them to get bleed stacks, too many unknowns but a simple fact is he clearly got more bleeding than he should have AND that whole picture was to knock down AI. I didn’t make up anything, he died from the ranger attacking him; that’s all there is to it.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Everyone have right to have a opinion. I respect yours. Still, something must be done to AI in this game.

Edit: Imo all AI builds should be strong in PvE, but they cannot be meta builds in PvP.

Well … tbh I find the priority to be very different. I find warriors to be the first thing, that needs to be toned down. A lot even; much more than what 10/12 aims for. I bet we don’t agree on this
More than any AI or stealth-spam, I dislike to be stunned and killed within a stun – going from 100% to 0% by one guy within a stun when stuns are on such short cd’s for that particular class. I can’t see the skills involved in executing it neither.

PS: I just ninja’ed your thread and made it a warrior-issue-thread instead
/cheers

Wow these suggestions are terrible.. but yea I agree AI builds should be toned down. INSTEAD OF BUFFED like what’s gonna happen on the 10th.

but classes/gameMechanics shouldn’t be broken like you suggest.. instead some traits should be reworked..

Also; I’m pretty sure you have no idea how any of these professions work.. go play something other then warrior.

Darnis.4056:

Wow these suggestions are terrible.. but yea I agree AI builds should be toned down. INSTEAD OF BUFFED like what’s gonna happen on the 10th.

but classes/gameMechanics shouldn’t be broken like you suggest.. instead some traits should be reworked..

Also; I’m pretty sure you have no idea how any of these professions work.. go play something other then warrior.

Well actualy i play with mesmer and ranger also. (i have all professions with the exception of guardian) If i only played warrior i could not give any sugestions because i wouldn´t knew how it is to be on the other side and i would be biased ofc.

But that is another story.

With my mesmer, none of the sugestions above would remove my strength in a battle.
Same with my ranger. Only promotes skill play and more positioning. Of course it will be harder to play because then you must do something in the fight. People are going to start thinking if AI is the best you can take to a match because you can kill the same way than before, but you get the drawbacks also.

And thats not me has a warrior talking about those isues. Right now my main is my mesmer and i know how powerfull he can be. And even with this meta we have, i still get much more wins than loses. With my ranger i dont even use spirit builds, its boring… and you win almost the time. So has warriors have issues and ANet will try to put them in line with other professios as it should, other professions have issues too and AI in particular needs to be addressed.

But you can flame me as you want and try to take this topic to other subjects. Do your best.

You could not be a decent (anything) but specifically Mesmer and thing that #1 would ever be good. So what happens when you down someone and you shatter clones or sacrifice a minion for their effect? You just… rally people? Or splash damage gets one of your bone minions with 13k hp down to 1k just before someone dies and so they should rally because of that? (Same with clones) These ideas aren’t bad based on opinion, they’re mechanically flawed.

I just personally think something needs to be done with pet classes in this game. I don’t know what exactly but it seems to me that certain builds are too effective for the effort involved. To me the game is not balanced until there is a farily direct correlation between the skill level required and the reward reaped. No one with a straight face can tell me that high skill level builds are rewarded appropriately right now.

The problem is you assume pets = easy. You refuse to believe having AI can also be difficult to handle because you cannot perform things as quickly as you’d like. With MAYBE an exception of Spirit rangers (and useless guardian spirit weapons) most AI builds are easy to play in low tier, but are some of the hardest in High tier, which is pretty much how it’s supposed to be. Also most AI builds are strong in 1v1 and terrible in group play. That’s a niche, which is why they typically side-bunker. You have to learn to think about most AI builds in a different light, instead of them being direct fighters their “skill level” comes from controlling enemies and surviving with limited active defenses to allow their minions to be effective. This is specifically why in low tier (when both players are bad) the other classes struggle. They take hits from AI far too much and then of course they die. In high tier, where there is a lot of movement and juking, AI miss a lot and spend most of their time traveling, locking down an enemy is the skill for the AI controller while avoiding CC, applying CC back, AOE and burst are direct counters of AI builds. In top tier play AI builds are actually under par (hence few if any top tier comps have AI builds like MM). So what you’re asking for is already in place, yes they’re strong in 1v1 and yes they can cream bad players. But that’s about where the line is drawn. Without 1v1 viability AI control builds have no place ANYWHERE in the game, and all because people refuse to accept alternative play styles. I for one enjoy controlling an army and watching out for my multiple units and acting as a “warlord” of sorts to control the flow of a fight. (Hence my Necro, High Warlord Sikari). So no, there’s not an issue, and if AI builds are you top concern you either need to practice more against these types of build, become more accepting of alternative playstyles or just simply become better as a whole. You clearly have no idea how difficult it is to play MM in high tier versus things like Warriors and AOE Engies/Necros. It’s rough, and I’m not even the one complaining about Warriors. I love where warriors are, they deserved the lime light after all the crap they went through.

The dumb is strong with this thread.

1) Stop grouping “AI” together in one big lump. When was the last time you saw an Ele or Guardian with a full AI build? Compare their results to Phantasm Mesmers. Also, Phantasms, Pets, Minions, Turrets, every single “AI” build works completely differently. Spirits have very little similarity to Minions, which aren’t that similar to Turrets. They all operate very differently, and once you take them out of the hands of an utter noob, the entire playstyle is vastly different.

2) If you have never played an AI build well, or have never seen one played well, which I guarantee most haven’t, then your input is fundamentally flawed. It is still valid, in that you can give the perspective of an unexperienced player when it comes to these builds, but don’t pretend like you know them through and through when you don’t even have the slightlest idea of how they function.

Bhawb.7408:

The dumb is strong with this thread.

1) Stop grouping “AI” together in one big lump. When was the last time you saw an Ele or Guardian with a full AI build? Compare their results to Phantasm Mesmers. Also, Phantasms, Pets, Minions, Turrets, every single “AI” build works completely differently. Spirits have very little similarity to Minions, which aren’t that similar to Turrets. They all operate very differently, and once you take them out of the hands of an utter noob, the entire playstyle is vastly different.

2) If you have never played an AI build well, or have never seen one played well, which I guarantee most haven’t, then your input is fundamentally flawed. It is still valid, in that you can give the perspective of an unexperienced player when it comes to these builds, but don’t pretend like you know them through and through when you don’t even have the slightlest idea of how they function.

No one said that AI was all equal. All of them work in diferent ways but all of them do the same… damage you /control you / kill you.
AI=Computer playing, not player playing,

All AI should have drawbacks when used. At least in PvP.

It… does…. 1.5 second cast time middle of the fight for your utilities, lack of stability/cleanse/cc breaks/dealing with clunky AI/positioning issues/slow reponse aren’t drawbacks?

Oh, and your utilities can be aoe’d down, that’s also something to consider as AI.

ronpierce.2760:

It… does…. 1.5 second cast time middle of the fight for your utilities, lack of stability/cleanse/cc breaks/dealing with clunky AI/positioning issues/slow reponse aren’t drawbacks?

That is the build you use. You have cast times like every other classes and you make choices like every other class. But you have more numbers to deal damage, protect you (body block) and your oponent have to pay atention not only to you but to the AI.
When a player needs to pay more attention to the AI than to the other player… then something is very wrong. (in PvP of course)

What are you trying to pay attention to with other things? Their 3 second swing timer? Most of them don’t do much they’re killable DoTs… And don’t hit THAT hard individually. It doesn’t kill you to see if there is a bone minion around you or if you could quickly kill a vital pet that might be low (watching floating HP bars). You complain about a lack of skill then say you want to not have to work to fight someone. AKA you want more tunnel vision. That’s exactly what you said… These pets aren’t friggen ninjas doing acrobats, they mostly just auto attack and miss a lot.

silentnight warrior.2714:

No one said that AI was all equal. All of them work in diferent ways but all of them do the same… damage you /control you / kill you.
AI=Computer playing, not player playing,

All AI should have drawbacks when used. At least in PvP.

First off, every AI has drawbacks: an HP bar. In general, they can also be kited, LoS’d, and AI can be screwed with (like running up and down a ramp).

Also, they are some mix of passive and active abilities. There aren’t any that have super strong passive and active effects in one. The ones with strong passive abilities all have drawbacks as well, whether it be weak actives or low uptime.

But its not like they “play” the game for you. AIs are just moving spells. No different than a Necromancer well that you put down and then it takes its effect over time, or any of a number of things in this game that happen passively. And in certain cases (like some Phantasm and most minions) require a lot of active work by the person controlling them, or they fall flat on their face.

AI needs to be removed, it destory more builds then creating, it is also braindead build.

If only you knew what you were talking about Lighter. If only, right? xD