Guild Wars 2

based on DaveGan’s feedback in my “force balance” topic
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Hotjoin-New-Option-Force-Balance/first#post4257275

at the moment, rank points reward for hotjoin / custom arena is
win – 500 rank points
lose – 200 rank points

lets change that to
win – 400 rank points
lose – 300 rank points
provided if at least 7 minutes have passed in that match.

perhaps this may discourage people to stack on the winning team for more rank points since there is not much rank points difference for winning.

besides that, we also need to encourage, motivate, reward players to help the team with one less player and losing in points make a come back.

attached herewith DaveGan’s proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Hotjoin-Custom-Arena-Rank-Point-Rewards/first#post4263949

• Tracked per individual player: must join or be on losing side when down by “significant” amount (100 points). This is so players who bandwagon after the lead is overcome do not get the rewards.
• 25 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 50 points (at some point in the match)
• 50 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 25 points (at some point in the match)
• 75 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 0, but losing in the end
• 100 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 0, and winning the match
• Double rewards if deficit began at -200

Example: Red vs Blue, match starts at 3v4/4v5 for most of the round, Red is losing 150-250. Player R5 joins red as the last member to even the match up.

Scenario 1: Red fails to reduce the deficit to 50 and loses, 350-500. All red players get 300 points. Blue players get 400.

Scenario 2: Red reduces the deficit to 0 points at 375-375, but they lose the match 450-500. Red players get 375 points. Blue players get 400.

Scenario 3: Red reduces the deficit to 0 at 375-375, and wins the match 500-460. Red players get 500 points (400 for winning +100). Blue players get 300.

---

The other thing I think needs to be addressed more is the 3v4/4v5 situation.

On one hand I feel there needs to be a 50 point reward for someone who evens a match from 3v4 or 4v5 while that side is tied or losing. On the other hand, I don’t want players to not join the game to try to get those 50 points. Here is what I have in mind now.

• Reduce the winner-loser reward from 400-300 to 350-250 (taking away 50 points)
• Reward every player with 50 points if the match fills up to 4v4 or 5v5 (but not 5v4) before the first cap or kill of the match.
• Reward a player 50 points for joining the losing side in 4v5 or 3v4 (on top of the comeback bonuses highlighted above) EDIT: would only be valid on the first join

This would be another indirect nerf to custom arena farming, as well as add incentives to join the game early, and help even out the teams. In particular, players who stack would see their reward reduced by 50 points (in addition to the 100 from reducing the win-loss gap), which may push some of them into Solo and Team Queue.

the above extra bonus only applies on official hotjoin servers hosted by anet.

in hj/custom arenas they shouldn’t give rank points at all…zerging around, swapping teams and so on…it’s not even worth as a pre-tournament training… in 2 years i never saw someone actually getting any better playing hotjoin (Well on the other hand i know ppl who stopped going competitive just to chill in hj for some weeks and actually lost so much skill), it’s just a (maybe) fun crap to test builds or trolling pve heroes…outside that should not be rewarded at all..ranks are already so easy you can go from 1 to 80 in 4 months (maybe less) without even tryharding dat much..took me one year and half, 3kk+ rank points and more than 3k hours in pvp to go from 1 to 69 before reterded 15th april patch (That just deleted 2kk rank points and around 2k hours with no returns leveling everyone at 55+ random’s level)…now i got this third account because second one is already 72 or something…just normally going tn at night not playing all day ofc….keep rewarding hj heroes to zerg around seems bit too much now with those “new” cardboard ranks..

Remove rank points completely from hot join.

minimal rank points must be given.
for the sake of rank progress.

solo arena and team arena gives much more rank points.

earning some amount of rank points is hotjoin is fair and just.
what you two are asking for is selfish and unreasonable.

HJ rewards should be way lower or even removed from the game.
Hotjoin is the place to try out new builds or whatever, it should not be rewarded this much.
Then maybe those ridiculous custom arena’s where everyone farms ranks will go away too.
(you know: 500rankfarm / red cap / blue kill / no trolling no skyhammer)

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

minimal rank points must be given.
for the sake of rank progress.

Why should you be able to progress in your ranks if you’re actually doing nothing that requires even a bit of skill? Then they should give points and rewards for killing hom npcs too since many hj heroes are even easier to get down than those…

@Archaon/Geiir/Sampo: PvP is trying to grow its population, not filter and alienate it further. Greatly cutting down or eliminating progression in hotjoins will have the opposite effect. Let’s figure out how to turn hotjoins into a fun and casual PvP environment, but one where learning can happen.

@Sampo: farming custom arenas will be nerfed by reducing the winner-loser gap so the winner gets 400 instead of 300. All the players who originally got the 500 will now get 400.

@Deimos: I think those bonuses may be too much, and would possibly encourage “farming” them. I envisioned that the bonuses would serve to mostly (but not completely) close the gap to the underdog team to reduce the risk. The reward should not exceed 400 unless 1.) a 200 point gap was greatly reduced, or 2.) the underdog team actually won the match.

Here is how I envisioned the comeback bonuses. (I agree these should not be in custom arenas, but only hotjoin)

• Tracked per individual player: must join or be on losing side when down by “significant” amount (100 points). This is so players who bandwagon after the lead is overcome do not get the rewards.
• 25 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 50 points (at some point in the match)
• 50 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 25 points (at some point in the match)
• 75 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 0, but losing in the end
• 100 rank point bonus for reducing the deficit to 0, and winning the match
• Double rewards if deficit began at -200

Example: Red vs Blue, match starts at 3v4/4v5 for most of the round, Red is losing 150-250. Player R5 joins red as the last member to even the match up.

Scenario 1: Red fails to reduce the deficit to 50 and loses, 350-500. All red players get 300 points. Blue players get 400.

Scenario 2: Red reduces the deficit to 0 points at 375-375, but they lose the match 450-500. Red players get 375 points. Blue players get 400.

Scenario 3: Red reduces the deficit to 0 at 375-375, and wins the match 500-460. Red players get 500 points (400 for winning +100). Blue players get 300.

The other thing I think needs to be addressed more is the 3v4/4v5 situation.

On one hand I feel there needs to be a 50 point reward for someone who evens a match from 3v4 or 4v5 while that side is tied or losing. On the other hand, I don’t want players to not join the game to try to get those 50 points. Here is what I have in mind now.

• Reduce the winner-loser reward from 400-300 to 350-250 (taking away 50 points)
• Reward every player with 50 points if the match fills up to 4v4 or 5v5 (but not 5v4) before the first cap or kill of the match.
• Reward a player 50 points for joining the losing side in 4v5 or 3v4 (on top of the comeback bonuses highlighted above) EDIT: would only be valid on the first join

This would be another indirect nerf to custom arena farming, as well as add incentives to join the game early, and help even out the teams. In particular, players who stack would see their reward reduced by 50 points (in addition to the 100 from reducing the win-loss gap), which may push some of them into Solo and Team Queue.

woah deimos! looks like you’ve hooked alot of elitists in this one!

to all of you elitists,
we understand that you don’t play spvp.
now that is settled lets give you our point of view,
some people don’t want to spend half of their gaming night waiting in a queue.
some people dont want to play as/against meta clones, we prefer playing as/against more fun and interesting builds.
some people don’t want to run the risk of a 1/6 chance of SKYHAMMER, with no option to leave.
some people enjoy the more fun atmosphere of spvp, were you don’t need to worry too much about win/loss and your team wont start screaming at eachother over what build they’re using or which base they’re attacking.

so to say “well you play a different mode to me so you shouldn’t get ANY rewards” is extremely stupid…

tournaments already give you far greater rewards and rank points.

deimos ideas are always pretty good imho.

DaveGan.8065:

snip.

you sir, deserve to be king of the internet! (or atleast work for anet!)

Archaon.9524:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

minimal rank points must be given.
for the sake of rank progress.

Why should you be able to progress in your ranks if you’re actually doing nothing that requires even a bit of skill? Then they should give points and rewards for killing hom npcs too since many hj heroes are even easier to get down than those…

Hotjoin heroe are fast to drop …
But even a hotjoin heroe made backstab theif a succefull specc back in febrouray of 2013 (before the tournaments) , while some other ’’ppl’’ said << it is a noob hotjoin spec , that wont work in tournament play>>
Theres some tournaments around in the corners , you should practice more than spending on the forums :P

Edit: nothing personal , but things like : a) how ppl should play , b) how we must force competiviness and c) we must force ppl to learn in a right way in a mode that ppl dont like , will hurt even more the pvp side at thel ong run ….

Honestly hotjoin feels way more fun and competetive than soloq these days. You enter soloq you can expect the majority of players to follow meta. It becomes really boring with time. In hotjoin however I’ve seen people using all kind of builds. Yes they might be bad sometimes but at least you can excpect the unexpected.

Archaon.9524:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

minimal rank points must be given.
for the sake of rank progress.

Why should you be able to progress in your ranks if you’re actually doing nothing that requires even a bit of skill? Then they should give points and rewards for killing hom npcs too since many hj heroes are even easier to get down than those…

1) People keep asking for a minimum rank to enter competitive queues. If HJ gives no rank points, how on earth do you expect that to work?

2) Y’know how you still gain rank if you lose in tPvP? How it’s possible to afk in every match (and really annoy your team) but still come out of it with some loot? It’d actually be less effort to purposefully afk in teamq games than to mess about trying to win (or at least ‘qualify for winner rewards’) in soloq, and the daily caps (on rank/coin/track progress) for teamq are much higher or nonexistent.
I really hope nobody ever actually tries this (and that anyone who does is given a fun permaban for their efforts) but with current rewards it could happen!

3) Hotjoin still serves a purpose as an easy, low-commitment way for people to try out PvP. We really do need an improved tutorial, to introduce newbies to PvP – possibly something like the PvE hints system with tips coming up every couple of matches with new information, iunno – but it’s also very necessary to have an almost sandbox-y place to let people try out these techniques and learn how to play at all effectively.

Sampo,
rewards in hotjoin are already very minimal.
no, it should not be removed.

yes, hotjoin is to try out new builds, etc.
and the rewards area already bare minimum.

regarding player owned custom arena farming, revising rewards in official anet hotjoin servers only would not affect those player owned custom arenas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Archaon,
rank points is a measurement of experience, time spent in sPvP. the leaderboard is a measure of skill provided if a victory is achievement. please do not confuse these two.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DaveGan,
thanks! i have attached what you wrote to the top.
thanks again for the comprehensive feedback!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Liewec,
hi hi thanks for dropping by!
thanks for speaking out for us who like to play in hotjoin!

uh thanks but i removed what i wrote liao and replaced them with DaveGan’s proposal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Killthehealersffs,
well, yeah majority hotjoin players can be put down quickly but not all of them though. recently i have seen more tankier ones.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

holodoc,
aye, at least we can fix 4 vs 5 ourselves in hotjoin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

cheese,
yeah, actually, losing in team arena gives 500 rank points and 15 silvers, which is the win reward for hotjoin.

i wonder if we lower the win reward of hotjoin to 400 rank points instead. would those farmers farm in team arena instead?

hmmm better tutorials.
maybe i need to start a new topic for that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

as usual, thanks everyone for the feedback!

I will say that I’ve had some fantastic 1v1s against very good players in hotjoin, most recently with an ele on forest keep – yes 1v1… you know, that unsupported game mode that people will not tolerate in team/solo queue…

Yes thanks to the spectate/team swap nonsense fairly often matches snowball one way or the other.
But have you tried forcing yourself to play on the losing/outnumbered team in hotjoin? While you almost certainly won’t win the conquest, there is significant challenge to achieve minor personal goals – ie how long can I keep one cap for our team or how long can I troll a 1v3, etc.

And even then there are sometimes good close matches, with good players – shock horror, I know – this shouldn’t be happening in hotjoin! They should all be monkeys pressing 1. Added bonus is more emphasis on fighting than on perfect cap rotations – a hell of a lot more fun tbh. Nevermind the funky builds you’ll run into.

People seem to kitten on hotjoin for no reason. There’s only one problem with hotjoin at the moment which is the unbalanced team stacking. It’s not a skilless mode as some people seem to believe – especially when on the losing/outnumbered team.

cheese.4739:

Archaon.9524:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

minimal rank points must be given.
for the sake of rank progress.

Why should you be able to progress in your ranks if you’re actually doing nothing that requires even a bit of skill? Then they should give points and rewards for killing hom npcs too since many hj heroes are even easier to get down than those…

1) People keep asking for a minimum rank to enter competitive queues. If HJ gives no rank points, how on earth do you expect that to work?

2) Y’know how you still gain rank if you lose in tPvP? How it’s possible to afk in every match (and really annoy your team) but still come out of it with some loot? It’d actually be less effort to purposefully afk in teamq games than to mess about trying to win (or at least ‘qualify for winner rewards’) in soloq, and the daily caps (on rank/coin/track progress) for teamq are much higher or nonexistent.
I really hope nobody ever actually tries this (and that anyone who does is given a fun permaban for their efforts) but with current rewards it could happen!

3) Hotjoin still serves a purpose as an easy, low-commitment way for people to try out PvP. We really do need an improved tutorial, to introduce newbies to PvP – possibly something like the PvE hints system with tips coming up every couple of matches with new information, iunno – but it’s also very necessary to have an almost sandbox-y place to let people try out these techniques and learn how to play at all effectively.

There is no minimum rank atm and anyway it would have no point if someone got it in hj matches…there are ppl out here with way higher ranks than 20 who farmed it in hj and sometimes you’ll rather go 4v5 than getting one of those…so you’re not giving out free kill points at least…

holodoc.5748:

Honestly hotjoin feels way more fun and competetive than soloq these days. You enter soloq you can expect the majority of players to follow meta. It becomes really boring with time. In hotjoin however I’ve seen people using all kind of builds.

this is one of the main reasons i prefer hotjoin to tournaments, there will always be afew meta clones, but people can get far more creative.

i play stoneheart conjure ele (which i dub the melee-ele)
i play axezerker/greatsword zerker wars
i play sniper ranger, or traps+longbow hybrid which works surprisingly well!
i play bombzerker engineer
i even play a frosty themed hammer guardian from time to time XD

its so much more fun than waiting in a 10 minute queue to be just another meta clone in a 5v5 of clones.

Informing people is also important.

Some people have not realized yet the changes in how rank is awarded and keep playing like before, going for wins and kills and personal score instead sticking around for the whole match.

Maybe some popup or something should appear when changes like those are made.

I always start off my pvp time by hitting the hot join reward cap. Despite the stigma associated with hot join, I must play it. I can’t stand all the downtime from solo and team queue. Even during the (in my experience) rare times were you aren’t waiting in queue for 5 and 10 minutes, you still have to wait before the match starts because nobody ever presses ready. I understand the time is there for a reason. People want to see the comp of their team and opponents and tweak builds and etc etc but I just can’t stand the waiting.

Of course once I cap rewards I move on and queue up, but lately I’ve only sat through a few rounds because the downtime works so heavily on my patience.