Guild Wars 2

As a quick observation the qq threads are spreading like an unstoppable zombie breakout umongst the population and not even once i have seen a reasonable valid point on any of the requests.

We have seen a nerf x on warriors thread for everything by now.From healing, damage, mobility, sustain, support, cc, traits, weapons and stats.Why doesn’t anyone take all these threads, place them on a board and see what all of them have in common?Let’s agree to disagree but the thing that all these threads have in common is the argument where warriors are too tanky(heals/armor) and their dps is too high(power/crit) making some builds really forgiving.

The reason of all this is Ususpecting Foe (UF) a cheap and easily achieved adept trait in precision tree wich for only 10 points offers not less than +50% critical chance on a stunned target.This might seem perfectly fine since stuns were nerfed most by half in duration with the sigil of paralysis recent fix but the problem still prevails since the bonus critical chance it applies before the damage from the stunning skill.The hundreed blades build got a big hit but it was never a bigger problem than the old Bull’s charge frenzy.

Except the huge toughness.

Currently the hammer and mace(especially hammer) can provide huge dps on par with wearing a breserker’s amulet or full berserker’s armor/trinkets while under the comfort of defensive gear.

Normally a class to be able to do average or decent raw dps has to give out as a trade it’s suravibility stats, wich as an imediate consequence means smart play and reactions from the assaulted opponent can be very punishing and even lethal.The perfect definition of glass canon.Unfortunately UF by itself turns some builds in full armored tiger panzer canons leaving very little place for a counter.The opponent needs to be either very squishy or very tanky to have a chance and even so they sit at a 50% handicap for the entire fight because it’s either dps or defensive stats for them.Basicly this trait turns hammer power builds in the condition counterpart only with raw dps instead of condition (wich is also a broken mechanic but that is a 300 pages worth of arguments topic)

Basic problems:

The dps of stun skills themselves is applied with the bonus offered by UF and not only the hits that apply after the stun.Just the earthshatter in this case is a guaranteed crit with a very big dps output, even at 1 andrenaline bar with a 1 second stun.As a matter of fact even if the stun was 0.1 seconds in duration the earthshatter would still be a guaranteed big crit in defensive armor because of this mechanic.Same for skullcrack but that is barely a 130 melee range hit for single target, not nearly as powerfull as the hammer counterpart and does not benefit from 25% increase in damage bonuses like hammer does.Basicly running a hammer and defensive gear means guaranteed glasscanon damage output on the F1 skill even at 1andrenaline bar on a decently short cooldown.

I will just make example in spvp where you can get at a barely 50% crit chance with zerker’s amulet while an earthshatter will hit with a 50% crit chance by using a zero base precision build.That’s 55% because you spent 10points in precision tree and 75% bevause you have fury up.Not bad for a 5% critical chance base build right?

Cause and effect:

Because this trait allows every warrior to completely discard the precision stat on their hammer and mace builds all of them can heavily invest in defensive stats such as toughness and vitality.Under very hight toughness even the smallest heal counts the world making healing signet very effective.Damage is low on their shell and the healing seems a lot higher.
Leaves a huge room for error on the opponent and very little for the warrior because he can just facetank to untill his cooldown is off.Bait stunbreaks and dosges by applying presure while facetanking and eventually delivering a killer blow with an earthshatter or 100 blades.This scenario is very unballanced for the opponent.

Other side effects are making healing signet seem too much because bringing down a full tanky built character is always a very long and tedious fight.But usually it has lower risks involved because the bunker can’t really put out a decent threat either.

Lead to nerf/remove hammer threads while in fact a glassy hammer user is extremely easy to deal with.Just dodge/block/blind and burst.The opposite you could just facetank and be annoyed by it’s stuns, more of a team support weapon.

Possible Solutions????

Move UF to grandmaster tree.This will make investing heavily into defense really hard .
Remove UF.Either tank or dps.
Shave UF to give just a 15% critical chance while the target is stunned if kept in adept position.That would still make a 40 % chance for a crit with a basic zero precision build (only 100 from spending for the trait).Would fix a bit the damage output but let’s not be kidding 40% crit for a possible 3 to 7 k damage skill on low cd is still a lot and not to be taken lightly.
Leave it as is but change it not to proc on the same stun but only the hits that follow.That would kill pvt hammer though and ill rather have the shave at 15%

Healing signet would help tank builds but they wont be a threat to instantly kill ppl as bunkers should be.
Stuns would mean more of support rather stun=death or as lethal but with really high risk for the warrior because would have to spec glassy to deal damage hence skill of the opponent would actually matter, would not start at a 50% handicap and the turn of the battle would be decided by reactions not facetanking and cd grinding.

I’ve been saying this forever . A warrior in soldiers swinging a hammer without UF has a garbage damage but with meriless hammer+UF it hits 5k on glass cannons and 2-3k on tanky builds . If they nerf this trait warrior
can become a normal class wjere you have to sacrifice defense in order to get good damage . But now it has the tools of a bunker > cleansing ire , healing signet and still hits like a truck in soldiers with 0 crit chance and only 30% crit dmg from discipline tree .

100% agree, UF (Unsuspecting Foe) is the main thing that makes soldier amulet warrior deadly. Removal of this trait would mean that warriors are forced to go Berserkers amulet to get the crits they would get passively from that trait. This would make warriors weaker vs power classes but still very viable against conditions. Then finally warrior has counter!!

How to Fix:
Seeing as the Grandmaster trait – Furious (Granting 1 extra adrenaline on Critical Hits) isn’t so amazing that it is worthy of a Grandmaster trait slot, it would make make sense that a trait as powerful as UF should be swapped with this in order to allow the option of this trait still in the game but forcing warrior to choose other trait trees other than just 30 in defense line.

Frae.

Actually war is perfect as is. Conditions just need to be reduced all around and power/defense brought back up for other classes. This will shift the meta back to power builds which = funner pvp. A power/prec/tough amulet could help.

I really don’t see why everyone is focused on warrior. Nothing is really different. The class has always been strong. It’s just a bit easier to land stuff now.

You do realize that ur suggestion breaking my 2 builds right? Im not even speaking about hammer/x, but about axe and sword/shield. If anything move it to master, this way its won’t hurt many builds, GM is far too much.

Scoobaniec.9561:

You do realize that ur suggestion breaking my 2 builds right? Im not even speaking about hammer/x, but about axe and sword/shield. If anything move it to master, this way its won’t hurt many builds, GM is far too much.

Unfortunatelly yes.I also use non meta builds and go zerker amulet.Sword shield would still benefit from the shave to 15% because with 20points in prec you still get 10% chance for sword skills 10% from points spent and 15% uf for a total of 55% crit chance whith fury for landing your final thrust while wearing pvt or non precision armor/amulet.Youbwouln’t need shield to proc the crit if you wore zerker but still a nice addition for. the interrupt or block.

Sadly you need to trade something and that is kind of the whole point for nerfing UF.So tanky dps builds would not be possible and force ppl into choosing one or the other.

Right now the choice is a no brainer because why choose glass or tank when you can be both.

Sorry m8 i always appreciate a non meta build considering how rare they are but that is just my opinion.

mini.6018:

Scoobaniec.9561:

You do realize that ur suggestion breaking my 2 builds right? Im not even speaking about hammer/x, but about axe and sword/shield. If anything move it to master, this way its won’t hurt many builds, GM is far too much.

Unfortunatelly yes.I also use non meta builds and go zerker amulet.Sword shield would still benefit from the shave to 15% because with 20points in prec you still get 10% chance for sword skills 10% from points spent and 15% uf for a total of 55% crit chance whith fury for landing your final thrust while wearing pvt or non precision armor/amulet.Youbwouln’t need shield to proc the crit if you wore zerker but still a nice addition for. the interrupt or block.

Sadly you need to trade something and that is kind of the whole point for nerfing UF.So tanky dps builds would not be possible and force ppl into choosing one or the other.

Right now the choice is a no brainer because why choose glass or tank when you can be both.

Sorry m8 i always appreciate a non meta build considering how rare they are but that is just my opinion.

Moving it to master will be enough in my opinion, also i pick that trait to have 100% chance for crit as uncritted evi/final thrust damag is a joke

If we move it to master players will have to chooce between ususpecting foe/merciless hammer/cleansing ire/burst mastery

I still dont think that this build OP, i actually hear OP nerf nao about gs+mace/shield build. What happened? Ppl adapted. Just 2 days ago ive seen a condi engi trained for -53% dmg while being stunned. Possible? Possible. Hotjoin heroes refuses to adapt..

Hey,

thought some time about UF and i have to say all your points are reasonable. The only issue is the following: at the moment, almost no class have to trade defense for offense, mainly for the fact, that condi dmg is poorly designed.

Necros, NGs, Rangers can pull of good dmg with vit/tough/cond gear, warriors can, too, with power instead of condi dmg. Mesmers and thieves have working condi builds too, but also can go with glass builds and have other free class mechanics, not limiting thier def while going for more offense. Even Guards, can have some free dmg, while in ptv, because Retaliation scales only of power.

Thats why i think, in the current state of the game, UF is somewhat in line, mechanic wise, but maybe needs numbers changed.

Solutions … Moving UF to GM would be the best solution in a game where you need to invest for offense. But currently this is not the case, and this way would nerf the warrior in a way i can not foresee. One can do this, after Condi dmg is in line. Look at guards: RHS is a GM trait and only some special Snowflakes playing off guard (didn’t played since the medi buff, maybe this has changed?).

Maybe it could work like this: gives 25% base crit chance + 1% additional, for every 1% you already owe (not counting buffs). So a base crit chance of 25% would still mean a 50% increase. 5% would result in a 30% bonus, and with some zerk gears 40% you would not need fury anymore, for 100% crits. This way, its still useable for bunkers, while rewarding offensive gearing.
Do not nail me on the numbers … just an idea, my main point is: Every class can go full defense while dealing insane dmg, why not warri? Better redesign Healsig.

That’s the biggest lie i’ve ever seen . Every class can do insane dmg while being tanky as hel . Tell that to guardians or thieves . Only the warrior is immune to conditions with cleansing ire . They need to nerf either the defense or the offense , saying it’s fine because all classes can do it it
too is a lie .

I agree on guards. Still Reta is free dmg in def gear, as i mentioned (remember reta bunkers before the nerf?, same problem but fixed, but now every other class can do it) and thats the reason almost every guards goes full bunker. Regarding thieves: What about S/D dealing 2k dmg while evading? And to some minor degree: the D/P thieve bursting and fleeing in stealth, without any counter?

What i think is fine, is getting free offense power, because almost everyone gets it. Not lying here, i tried to illustrate this statement with examples. And also i never said UF is entirely fine.

KickBitBeatBorg.7941:

Necros, NGs, Rangers can pull of good dmg with vit/tough/cond gear

We are talking about sPvP and there is no vit/tough/cond gear in sPvP. The warrior can do big damage with control skills while being tanky and immune to condition that is the problem.

Silverthorn.8576:

KickBitBeatBorg.7941:

Necros, NGs, Rangers can pull of good dmg with vit/tough/cond gear

We are talking about sPvP and there is no vit/tough/cond gear in sPvP. The warrior can do big damage with control skills while being tanky and immune to condition that is the problem.

Yeah your right, my statement however remains true for shaman stats (thought im in the wvw forum, ugh). And no: the problem was not warriors being immune to conditions, this have to fixed by fixing berserker stance bug. I would just not move UF to GM, but rather change numbers a bit and nerf the passive heal of healsig, as this is truely something no other class can pull off, because its a class specific issue and not an overall game design issue. Just my 2 cents.

The real problem has been, and will continue to be, you can’t balance a game effectively across three game modes! SPvP, PVE, WvW…..they all are completely different game modes where certain skills/builds/tactics are sometimes OP but worthless in others. It is virtually impossible to ever “get it right” across all three.

All I know is the line between where warriors are currently and where they were for a long time, worthless, is pretty small. Most of the changes that were made to Warriors were in an effort to give them some type of counter to condition spam and some sustainability. The non-stop condition spam in both sPvP and in WvW is what really should have been addressed first….and still should be…..before trying to further balance classes which is going to be another fail unless conditions as a whole are reviewed.

KickBitBeatBorg.7941:

Hey,

thought some time about UF and i have to say all your points are reasonable. The only issue is the following: at the moment, almost no class have to trade defense for offense, mainly for the fact, that condi dmg is poorly designed.

Necros, NGs, Rangers can pull of good dmg with vit/tough/cond gear, warriors can, too, with power instead of condi dmg. Mesmers and thieves have working condi builds too, but also can go with glass builds and have other free class mechanics, not limiting thier def while going for more offense. Even Guards, can have some free dmg, while in ptv, because Retaliation scales only of power.

There is no vit/tough/cond gear in sPvP. The reason why condition damage goes well with toughness is that condition damage is over time and can be cleansed, unlike direct damage. So condition builds need to endure.

Anyone who thinks UF needs a nerf obviously doesn’t understand how it works. UF is fine the way it is, since it only gives a temporary increase to crit while the target is stunned (doesn’t work on knockdown targets).

Hammer stun is only 2s with stage 3 adrenaline and is easy to dodge. It allows for 1-2 hammer attacks to hit with the bonus crit%. The bonus is completely negated by stun breakers and stability.

The real problem is the strong passive regen. For every second you spend knocked-down/stunned, the warrior regens 600-800 hp. Healsignet needs to be reworked to give a stronger active heal and a weaker passive heal. Maybe if the active heal was doubled and the passive heal was halved, all of this would be fixed since it wouldn’t allow warriors to stunlock-regen vs their target.

Moving UF to Grandmaster would be a terrible idea. Why would anyone want to put 30 points into a condition damage trait line when using a lockdown weapon? It would make it yet another GM level trait that never gets used.

Moving it would also simply destroy the current HamBow build, and making a build worthless isn’t balance. Do you really think Warrior would be worth playing if they have to choose between being less tough than Guardians and having CC with no damage, or running Zerker and having less damage than a thief and less escape options.

Currently, Warrior is a Jack of all trades but master of none. Take HamBow as an example, it’s tough and can do decent spike damage with Soldier gear, but it still can’t mid bunker nor can it spike down a target that is even remotely tough. The build excels at beating “extreme” builds that focus too much on one area, specifically pure condition or glassy with few to no stun breaks.

Reworking Healing Signet will probably just leave it back where it used to be, inferior to other healing options. Warrior wasn’t PvP viable until these healing changes, so it stands to reason that any knee-jerk balances will lead to certain builds being invalidated. Removing variety doesn’t sound like a wise idea to me. Warrior is now a class that feels very complete, it is viable in all parts of the game – and has a variety of different builds. This variety is what you should want for all classes, not trying remove them.

The best option is simply to give other classed counters to control just as Warrior counters conditions. Ele would be a good candidate, as would Ranger. If you are adding specific counters then you avoid power creep.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Moving it would also simply destroy the current HamBow build, and making a build worthless isn’t balance. Do you really think Warrior would be worth playing if they have to choose between being less tough than Guardians and having CC with no damage, or running Zerker and having less damage than a thief and less escape options.

Are you sure? I mean it would be a small decrease in sustained damage but nothing huge. It would reduce the damage of each earthshaker and the following 1-2 hits. Hambow is more of a sustained damage build than a burst build, so I’m guessing that in a 45-second duel it might lower the hambow’s total sustained damage by 10%-15%.

Remember that a ton of hambow damage is from burning. Pin down is significant as well, plus all of the hammer attacks that happen in between earthshakers.

UF is mandatory for all builds with hammer or m/s because nothing is better. That doesn’t mean that they would be ruined without UF. It simply means that nothing is currently better. My guess is that hambow would still be very strong with a 10% dps decrease.

NevirSayDie.6235:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Moving it would also simply destroy the current HamBow build, and making a build worthless isn’t balance. Do you really think Warrior would be worth playing if they have to choose between being less tough than Guardians and having CC with no damage, or running Zerker and having less damage than a thief and less escape options.

Are you sure? I mean it would be a small decrease in sustained damage but nothing huge. It would reduce the damage of each earthshaker and the following 1-2 hits. Hambow is more of a sustained damage build than a burst build, so I’m guessing that in a 45-second duel it might lower the hambow’s total sustained damage by 10%-15%.

Remember that a ton of hambow damage is from burning. Pin down is significant as well, plus all of the hammer attacks that happen in between earthshakers.

UF is mandatory for all builds with hammer or m/s because nothing is better. That doesn’t mean that they would be ruined without UF. It simply means that nothing is currently better. My guess is that hambow would still be very strong with a 10% dps decrease.

Having to invest 30 points in Arms is simply too much. If you want to take you would have to run 0/30/30/0/10 because you need both Cleansing Ire and Merciless Hammer. Zerker’s Stance alone is not enough to keep from being overwhelmed by conditions and Hammer skills deal no damage and have long CDs without MH. This means you won’t have Fast Hands – nor will you have as much adrenaline which means you’re more vulnerable to conditions.

If you decide not to take UF then you’ll probably use 0/0/30/10/30. This means you have basically become a Hammer Guardian with much less survival. I actually tried this trait setup once and it just wasn’t worth running. I didn’t feel like I had much use because all that control wasn’t enough to justify me being around.

Maybe at the master level you could at least do 0/20/30/0/20 but then you lose Burst Master which means once again you are losing both frequent access to Cleansing Ire and you deal less damage with Earthshaker. Basically you are once again not very good at anything.

I would just abandon Hammer because it just wouldn’t be worth using. It’s the synergy between UF and MH that makes the whole build work. It’s a strong build but take away its keystone and it crumbles. I for one like using Hammer and would not like it removed from viability.

I’m sorry but you’re wrong. UF is where it should be and is balanced.

If you’re looking for my views on what needs shaving check my history. I’m not against nerfing aspects of warrior trait-lines but this is just wrong.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Moving UF to Grandmaster would be a terrible idea. Why would anyone want to put 30 points into a condition damage trait line when using a lockdown weapon? It would make it yet another GM level trait that never gets used.

Moving it would also simply destroy the current HamBow build, and making a build worthless isn’t balance. Do you really think Warrior would be worth playing if they have to choose between being less tough than Guardians and having CC with no damage, or running Zerker and having less damage than a thief and less escape options.

Currently, Warrior is a Jack of all trades but master of none. Take HamBow as an example, it’s tough and can do decent spike damage with Soldier gear, but it still can’t mid bunker nor can it spike down a target that is even remotely tough. The build excels at beating “extreme” builds that focus too much on one area, specifically pure condition or glassy with few to no stun breaks.

Reworking Healing Signet will probably just leave it back where it used to be, inferior to other healing options. Warrior wasn’t PvP viable until these healing changes, so it stands to reason that any knee-jerk balances will lead to certain builds being invalidated. Removing variety doesn’t sound like a wise idea to me. Warrior is now a class that feels very complete, it is viable in all parts of the game – and has a variety of different builds. This variety is what you should want for all classes, not trying remove them.

The best option is simply to give other classed counters to control just as Warrior counters conditions. Ele would be a good candidate, as would Ranger. If you are adding specific counters then you avoid power creep.

I don’t understand your statement “If you are adding specific counters then you avoid power creep.”

Take the Warrior as an example. Buffs to Hammer, Mace, Cleansing Ire, Berz Stance, Dogged March, and Healign Signet, were done to allow the Warrior to counter the condi meta. At the same time, all of these buffs are power creep.

So how would you add specific counters but avoid power creep? Please allow me to answer my own question. You buff and you shave at the same time…which didn’t happen with the warrior. Now it is time to shave other areas to reduce that power creep.

BurrTheKing.8571:

…
Having to invest 30 points in Arms is simply too much. If you want to take you would have to run 0/30/30/0/10 because you need both Cleansing Ire and Merciless Hammer. Zerker’s Stance alone is not enough to keep from being overwhelmed by conditions and Hammer skills deal no damage and have long CDs without MH. This means you won’t have Fast Hands – nor will you have as much adrenaline which means you’re more vulnerable to conditions.

if u want moar dmg how about precision runes and sigill? how about zerkeramulett?
conditions: mending, rt. strength, warhorn nr4, shake it off, signet of stamina?

BurrTheKing.8571:

.
If you decide not to take UF then you’ll probably use 0/0/30/10/30. This means you have basically become a Hammer Guardian with much less survival. I actually tried this trait setup once and it just wasn’t worth running. I didn’t feel like I had much use because all that control wasn’t enough to justify me being around.

Maybe at the master level you could at least do 0/20/30/0/20 but then you lose Burst Master which means once again you are losing both frequent access to Cleansing Ire and you deal less damage with Earthshaker. Basically you are once again not very good at anything.

I would just abandon Hammer because it just wouldn’t be worth using. It’s the synergy between UF and MH that makes the whole build work. It’s a strong build but take away its keystone and it crumbles. I for one like using Hammer and would not like it removed from viability.

how about actual think what purpose your build should have and change the ulities and amulett depending on enemy teamcomp?

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

if u would read his post u would see that is answer always is “cant use it at given frequency like now”. that means spam. spam spam

0/30/30/0/10 lower recharge → qq
0/x/30/x/30 lower dmg → qq

so all he wants is play with pvt and spam F1, more condition cleanse, more dmg than normal pvt and more defense.. but not change any single utility to adapt to enemy team. not using mending if enemy has a lot of possible conditionbunker and so on.

hooma.9642:

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

if u would read his post u would see that is answer always is “cant use it at given frequency like now”. that means spam. spam spam

0/30/30/0/10 lower recharge -> qq
0/x/30/x/30 lower dmg -> qq

so all he wants is play with pvt and spam F1, more condition cleanse, more dmg than normal pvt and more defense.. but not change any single utility to adapt to enemy team. not using mending if enemy has a lot of possible conditionbunker and so on.

Then what you’re missing is the fact that you need 15 is discipline to run a warrior in tpvp.

Otherwise we’d of all of been running regen banners since beta

And the alternate would prevent you running anything other than a zerker amulet to use a nerfed hammer, which is lame and you be stupid not to just run an axe.

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

if u would read his post u would see that is answer always is “cant use it at given frequency like now”. that means spam. spam spam

0/30/30/0/10 lower recharge -> qq
0/x/30/x/30 lower dmg -> qq

so all he wants is play with pvt and spam F1, more condition cleanse, more dmg than normal pvt and more defense.. but not change any single utility to adapt to enemy team. not using mending if enemy has a lot of possible conditionbunker and so on.

Then what you’re missing is the fact that you need 15 is discipline to run a warrior in tpvp.

Otherwise we’d of all of been running regen banners since beta

And the alternate would prevent you running anything other than a zerker amulet to use a nerfed hammer, which is lame and you be stupid not to just run an axe.

u mean u need to think about your build and what enemy u engage? sounds right i think. not the all-around high dmg dealing, immune to conditions, high toughness and high frequent cc war atm..

Sifu.6527:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Moving UF to Grandmaster would be a terrible idea. Why would anyone want to put 30 points into a condition damage trait line when using a lockdown weapon? It would make it yet another GM level trait that never gets used.

Moving it would also simply destroy the current HamBow build, and making a build worthless isn’t balance. Do you really think Warrior would be worth playing if they have to choose between being less tough than Guardians and having CC with no damage, or running Zerker and having less damage than a thief and less escape options.

Currently, Warrior is a Jack of all trades but master of none. Take HamBow as an example, it’s tough and can do decent spike damage with Soldier gear, but it still can’t mid bunker nor can it spike down a target that is even remotely tough. The build excels at beating “extreme” builds that focus too much on one area, specifically pure condition or glassy with few to no stun breaks.

Reworking Healing Signet will probably just leave it back where it used to be, inferior to other healing options. Warrior wasn’t PvP viable until these healing changes, so it stands to reason that any knee-jerk balances will lead to certain builds being invalidated. Removing variety doesn’t sound like a wise idea to me. Warrior is now a class that feels very complete, it is viable in all parts of the game – and has a variety of different builds. This variety is what you should want for all classes, not trying remove them.

The best option is simply to give other classed counters to control just as Warrior counters conditions. Ele would be a good candidate, as would Ranger. If you are adding specific counters then you avoid power creep.

I don’t understand your statement “If you are adding specific counters then you avoid power creep.”

Take the Warrior as an example. Buffs to Hammer, Mace, Cleansing Ire, Berz Stance, Dogged March, and Healign Signet, were done to allow the Warrior to counter the condi meta. At the same time, all of these buffs are power creep.

So how would you add specific counters but avoid power creep? Please allow me to answer my own question. You buff and you shave at the same time…which didn’t happen with the warrior. Now it is time to shave other areas to reduce that power creep.

Those changes to the things you mentioned are only strong vs pure condition builds, which are still very popular. However, more hybrid builds like what Mesmer and Thieves can run can pray upon the fact that the majority of the build is focused around conditions. Conditions are still strong, but they have a counter.

Giving Ele more consistent access to Stability would allow them to counter Control Warriors, but that stability won’t make them stronger against anything else. I honestly think in general other classes need more Stability that isn’t on such a long CD. But you also don’t want to add too much to the point were control is no longer viable.

I would only consider something power creep if it decreased the amount of time it takes one build to kill another. I would actually say the time to kill has increased since launch due to Quickness being nerfed.

hooma.9642:

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

if u would read his post u would see that is answer always is “cant use it at given frequency like now”. that means spam. spam spam

0/30/30/0/10 lower recharge -> qq
0/x/30/x/30 lower dmg -> qq

so all he wants is play with pvt and spam F1, more condition cleanse, more dmg than normal pvt and more defense.. but not change any single utility to adapt to enemy team. not using mending if enemy has a lot of possible conditionbunker and so on.

Then what you’re missing is the fact that you need 15 is discipline to run a warrior in tpvp.

Otherwise we’d of all of been running regen banners since beta

And the alternate would prevent you running anything other than a zerker amulet to use a nerfed hammer, which is lame and you be stupid not to just run an axe.

u mean u need to think about your build and what enemy u engage? sounds right i think. not the all-around high dmg dealing, immune to conditions, high toughness and high frequent cc war atm..

A: stopped running cc months ago when I bother to faceroll on a warrior.

B: there are alternate and largely unplayed warrior builds which are altogether more uncounterable.

hooma.9642:

Phaeton.9582:

hooma.9642:

so u mean u cant spam anymore and need to think when to use? sounds like a good idea.

how about a zerkeramulett if u want deal more dmg?

Troll?

Honestly can’t tell… Oh well hopefully they’ll take 100hps of healing signet and people will stop making such ‘creative’ balancing suggestions. Maybe nerf cleansing ire/burst mastery synergy too.

Till then I’ll stay away from these threads!

if u would read his post u would see that is answer always is “cant use it at given frequency like now”. that means spam. spam spam

0/30/30/0/10 lower recharge -> qq
0/x/30/x/30 lower dmg -> qq

so all he wants is play with pvt and spam F1, more condition cleanse, more dmg than normal pvt and more defense.. but not change any single utility to adapt to enemy team. not using mending if enemy has a lot of possible conditionbunker and so on.

More damage than normal pvt…but also less survival. You keep overlooking the fact that Warrior is not as tough as a Guardian, so having both low damage and less survival doesn’t seem that attractive to me.

And the other guy it right, you really do need Fast Hands. You also need both UF and MH if you want the Hammer. Basically moving it is going to make it more trouble than it’s worth to use Hammer, and removing a weapon from viability isn’t balance.

You also skipped over the fact that this is a team game and that it’s very easy to bring a class to counter Warriors. Warriors are indeed strong 1v1, as is Mesmer, but both can be marginalized in a team fight. Guardians can provide AoE Stability that lasts long enough for the team to focus down the Warrior. I could indeed take Zerker Amulet, but then I would probably just not bring UF, so once again you made it a useless trait, which is not balance

You basically just made personal attacks against me while avoiding offering a counter argument. Warrior is walking on the razors edge of viability, it was only the culmination of every buff over the last year that got them where the are. It stands to reason that reducing both the traits and healing would make them not worth playing again.

Also, Warriors do not have “all-around high damage,” they get spikes of damage with mediocre damage when they aren’t stunned. Much of that damage comes from Earthshaker being chained into Backbreaker, which has a 25 second CD and a really obvious animation. The toughness is high, but they lack boons such as Protection which makes Guardians tougher.

why u compare to a guardian? what with the other classes who can play in pvt too? and u dont need UF and MH if u play with hammer. only if u want do dmg.. but there are a lot of other ways to get moar dmg. u miss the fact that this build do a lot to much to good, thats why i needs to get shaved. choose what u want with your build or play a all around builds with it flaws.. thats your problem of understanding. u compare to 1 class and think u need all that to be viable.

KickBitBeatBorg.7941:

Hey,

What you just described is true, but unfortunately it is a general condition related problem for all classes because of the wrong design for condition damage.Basicly every class except guardian has a viable tanky condition build including the warrior because of this aproach Anet too allowing condition damage to only scale in one stat and giving stat combinations like t/v/cor t/p/c.Many might argue that they need precision and also duration to be viable but that is just an uninformed myth since all the dangerous condi builds are the ones that stack (bomb) the target with huge ammount of condi buffed with condi damage for a very short duration of time.Condi burst i call it and it’s what a good necro uses to burn all your hp before fear wears off.
Condi duration is handy ofcourse and precision too but they barely maximize the dps of a condi burst.Procs on crit are very weak and share internal cooldown, sometimes a rather long one (2second cd for A CHANCE to 1 bleed and 33% for another is very weak and will hardly put 2 or 3 bleeds every 10 Seconds).Duration also because no one will sit and eat a 25 second bleed or torment duration and almost all bleeds have a long enough base duration to get removed before they end.

Condi scaling is broken and the armor combinations enforce that perfectly but as i already sai this is a whole different topic.No one should make complaints about a warrior being tanky and doing too much condi damage because that means complaining about every single class/build in this game.It’s just the way condi meta is atm.

The problem with UF is that allows the warrior to have the same broken (imo) concept vut translated into power counterpart, wich no other classes have.Sure you can go full bunk and huge condi but no one else exceot warrior can go full tank and also huge dps.You can hit full berserker damage numbers on earthshatter while having maximum toughness.And it will hit you hard because i already explained that a zero precision base build would produce a 75% crit chance earthshatter.That is higher than most berserker builds out there and even classes that chose the new assassin gear would still be left short for trading power for precision.
Just the guaranteed crit on earthshatter is enough for the most tanky build to have a chance at killing because it has the control, it has the survavibility to keep going at it until will eventually land.

Teamwise this is un unballanced situation too because someone that wants to bring a huge burst to the table must play very carefully and with the wrong move would just get instantly melted without even having the chance to drop it.Unlike hammer war that can just run arround under heavy fire wairing for his next earthshatter to be ready.

Imo this is the main problem players are complaining about because it allows a huge room for mistakes at basicly zero tradeoffs and there is no gap between risk and reward.This is even more dangerous in the hands of a really skilled player that would wreck that havoc even by playing smartly in squishy armor.

We should have to choose our poison and deal with it like everybody else, like a full zerker thief that accidentlt trips into my autoattack and gets instakilled, or a tanky ele ,ranger or guardian that can’t kill me but they annoy the kitten out of me too with their insane survival.