Guild Wars 2

This post started off as a reply, but i decided to give it its own thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Stopped-dead-on-Wings/first#post6066854

Sarrs.4831:

This defeatist attitude is exactly why you’re not going to get the wings

It is, but then again he’s not exactly wrong either. While ‘mmr hell’ gets thrown around a lot, his 30+ losing streak is certainly pushing in that direction. Additionally his ability to play well was compounded by him aiming for the rewards which meant he was playing professions he was probably no good on, further compounding the issue. Just to be clear I’m not disagreeing with you, i just wonder if his issue is synonymous with something else.

For the longest time ANet has made itself a casual game with fashion wars being end game content. These shiny wings of a reward would have brought in many players that had this mindset.

While it has its history in ‘spam 1 to win’ and many people were unhappy with just HOW casual GW2 had become. Its also fair to say that ANet historically encouraged this type of behaviour. So while we see a move to hard content, such as raids, there’s still a level of press 1 to win.

So while the PvP team has every right to create a league that only a select few will be able to obtain the rewards from, is it any real surprise the toxicity that has come from this. GW2 has changed a lot since its vanilla days and some would say for the worse.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that everyone should be able to get the glowing animated wings. But the fact that we have the toxicity that we do, are people really surprised? Has the PvP team gated content behind a higher level of skill despite historically being part of a company that encouraged casual (almost afk) behaviour that could still obtain rewards.

tldr: The historical casual nature of GW2 is why we have the current level of toxicity that we do. The PvP team underestimated its casual player base.

Anet should have made the wings available through a seasons-only reward track. Adding those professional achievements just was added insult to injury.
Of course ap hunter then go and try to get that last 1 ap… kittening up matches for four other players.
Stupid, just plain stupid.

ANet has upset the ‘filthy’ casual

that phrase can be used to describe the entire PvP forum since the addition of ranked or… should i say since the addition of legendary backpack to PvP

Honestly they should’ve kept the backpiece and the divisions separate. This allows the skilled players or people who care, to climb to legend but leaving the people who can’t or won’t, still able to get the backpiece through sheer effort.

Some might argue that the PvP backpiece is prestige but I don’t see it that way at all, it’s just a farm and anyone who’s done any sort of PvP can get it over 2-4 PvP leagues. The prestige should have been the guild leaderboards the legend X10 or whatever leaderboards.

A simple fix would have been to remove divisions from the achievements and maybe change it to something else.

You do have a point about the mentality Anet has caused with GW2. If you go to a PvE world boss, you’ll notice so many people leeching, where they turn up, to hit the boss a few times, then basically just stand there and don’t help much.

Also I’ve seen a lot of complaints about Heart of Thorns mobs being too hard. I solo’d the story without a problem. Never had an issue navigating the areas either. The mobs aren’t that difficult to deal with, as long as you don’t just stand there auto attacking.

I know that PvE is a different beast to PvP, and you can’t compare to two, but you do bring up a good point about the game breeding the “casual” mindset. If someone from PvE steps into PvP and plays how they do in PvE, it isn’t going to end well for them.

I’ve said multiple times now, that I think backpiece has caused mass frustration, for the PvE players that are desperately trying to get it, the experienced PvP players that want to have good games against players of similar skill, and the people that play PvP at a more “relaxed” (by relaxed I mean they don’t just play PvP all the time, but they enjoy different modes of play too) level, that are also caught in the middle of it all.

Maybe they could’ve offered just a skin for the leagues reward, instead of an actual backpiece, offering the actual backpiece as a reward track? But then people would probably say they want the skin from the leagues and we’d be in the exact same issue, so I really don’t know what to suggest.

fishball.7204:

Honestly they should’ve kept the backpiece and the divisions separate. This allows the skilled players or people who care, to climb to legend but leaving the people who can’t or won’t, still able to get the backpiece through sheer effort.

Some might argue that the PvP backpiece is prestige but I don’t see it that way at all, it’s just a farm and anyone who’s done any sort of PvP can get it over 2-4 PvP leagues. The prestige should have been the guild leaderboards the legend X10 or whatever leaderboards.

A simple fix would have been to remove divisions from the achievements and maybe change it to something else.

And there are dozen of skins I will never get because…I don’t pve regularly and neither I belong to a raiding guild, I don’t see why pvers should feel so entitled to anything , are we talking about the same people who kick you out if you lack the correct gear for a raid? the same ones who said to have no time to teach you this and that trick to speed up the map clearing?

…Sorry somehow I don’t feel that “good” about giving the skin for free, if not can I get a reward track for the : ghostly infusion, legendary armor etc etc?

Just for “sheer effort” I should get my hands on the anything by your logic…sorry it doesn’t work like that anywhere, you’re either good enough to get it…or you don’t that’s how reality works both in pve and pvp apparently

You only need to get to saphire (ruby at most) for the backpack and AP within a year. You can quit as soon as you cross from emerald or saphire. Less people are complaining about being stuck in saphire now. Who are all these people complaining in ruby and diamond? Surely they aren’t PVErs going through all that pain to get it a little earlier? That would be a bit masochistic with no tier lock. Wouldn’t they be doing it for other reasons?

SoPP.7034:

tldr: The historical casual nature of GW2 is why we have the current level of toxicity that we do. The PvP team underestimated its casual player base.

You raise a good point. Its not just the general nature of the game though, anet explicitly stated that anyone could get the backpack through effort. With S2 they have now threatened that. If they had said up front the wings would be available to those who make legendary I for one would have accepted it and tried my hand at ranked simply just to test my skill and not to make a serious go at the reward. I probably wouldn’t have lasted long because the pip system totally discourages average players even with no great rewards on the line.

Supreme.3164:

Just for “sheer effort” I should get my hands on the anything by your logic…sorry it doesn’t work like that anywhere, you’re either good enough to get it…or you don’t that’s how reality works both in pve and pvp apparently

Uh welcome to guild wars 2 where everything is available by grinding, even the raids aren’t a great test of PvE skill.

Supreme.3164:

And there are dozen of skins I will never get because…I don’t pve regularly and neither I belong to a raiding guild, I don’t see why pvers should feel so entitled to anything , are we talking about the same people who kick you out if you lack the correct gear for a raid? the same ones who said to have no time to teach you this and that trick to speed up the map clearing?

…Sorry somehow I don’t feel that “good” about giving the skin for free, if not can I get a reward track for the : ghostly infusion, legendary armor etc etc?

Just for “sheer effort” I should get my hands on the anything by your logic…sorry it doesn’t work like that anywhere, you’re either good enough to get it…or you don’t that’s how reality works both in pve and pvp apparently

I guess you’re right. I just feel bad for the guys who play a lot and don’t really get anywhere.

Is there any way to make them feel somewhat rewarded and not frustration with nothing to show for it? 30 loss streaks aren’t really a good thing for the health of the game. Some people might argue they’re just bad players who don’t deserve anything but I’d rather these bad players eventually get good and integrate into the PvP community rather than just rage quit and never come back to PvP.

Supreme.3164:

fishball.7204:

Honestly they should’ve kept the backpiece and the divisions separate. This allows the skilled players or people who care, to climb to legend but leaving the people who can’t or won’t, still able to get the backpiece through sheer effort.

Some might argue that the PvP backpiece is prestige but I don’t see it that way at all, it’s just a farm and anyone who’s done any sort of PvP can get it over 2-4 PvP leagues. The prestige should have been the guild leaderboards the legend X10 or whatever leaderboards.

A simple fix would have been to remove divisions from the achievements and maybe change it to something else.

And there are dozen of skins I will never get because…I don’t pve regularly and neither I belong to a raiding guild, I don’t see why pvers should feel so entitled to anything , are we talking about the same people who kick you out if you lack the correct gear for a raid? the same ones who said to have no time to teach you this and that trick to speed up the map clearing?

…Sorry somehow I don’t feel that “good” about giving the skin for free, if not can I get a reward track for the : ghostly infusion, legendary armor etc etc?

Just for “sheer effort” I should get my hands on the anything by your logic…sorry it doesn’t work like that anywhere, you’re either good enough to get it…or you don’t that’s how reality works both in pve and pvp apparently

^^this

I had to farm and do some much pve (which i really really really hate), especially for new legendary (still farming) but if i came and started to QQ about it on general forums i would get flamed for 20 pages straight by raid elitist, fractal elitist and general pve’ers. But we can’t have a skin that actually requires some commitment (btw leagues are still farmboards) to pvp, oh noes!

@fishball: here is the thing: for long time there were NO rewards in pvp. People did pvp for pvp not for some shiney crap. What motivation did new players back then had? I was one of those new players, i was consistently farmed by better players all the time. I did stay because my goal wasn’t some crappy dyes or rewards, i wanted to pvp and i knew i would need to get farmed and learn from it for long time before i get some satisfying results. The pve’ers that come to pvp for the back expect everything handled to them just because they farm it. This is not what pvp is about, it is player vs player after all and not player vs dumb AI that is designed to die.

In any other game that had competitive pvp for long time nobody complains about unable to reach top 1% (10%, you name it). Because people do realize it is not something everyone supposed to reach and if you want it you need to practice a lot, it is not something you should be able to just reach by mindless farm. Take a guess how many people get 2200 rating weapons in wow, take a guess how many people get gladiator mount in wow. Not many. And those rewards actually mean something, they show you reached certain rating, you actually got some skill in pvp. In gw2, season 1 legend icon didn’t mean crap – because it was farmable, even by worst player.
A lot of gw2 players are spoiled by the casual attitude this game had for long time. I am glad that at least pvp part of this game becomes more competitive.

As far as 30+ matches losing streak goes, it is mainly issue with current matchmaking always putting together winning and losing team. It can be addressed but in the end majority of players won’t see legend/diamond and they shouldn’t.

fishball.7204:

I guess you’re right. I just feel bad for the guys who play a lot and don’t really get anywhere.

Is there any way to make them feel somewhat rewarded and not frustration with nothing to show for it? 30 loss streaks aren’t really a good thing for the health of the game. Some people might argue they’re just bad players who don’t deserve anything but I’d rather these bad players eventually get good and integrate into the PvP community rather than just rage quit and never come back to PvP.

The thing is, a “teddy bear stamp for participation” doesn’t really work as a reward either.
The best way to encourage players to stay, is to have gameplay that is fun enough to keep them playing even when losing.

I used to play in an amateur basketball league. We were totally casual and near the bottom, we’d win some but most of our opponents were better.

Even when losing, matches were still enjoyable because of the little personal wins along the way. When you get a point, steal the ball, get a rebound, etc etc.

Especially when you could see yourself improving, the number of shots you get into the basket going up over time, it becomes quite enjoyable.

Being an mmo, GW2 somewhat lacks those skillful moments of personal glory. Unlike a fighting game where you can feel pleased about successfully pulling off a complex combo, or defending perfectly against an opponent’s pressure. In GW2 the build vs. build matchup is a big factor, so your actual play skill is a bit less important.

The actual choices you have that makes the biggest impact is probably when and where to rotate. But “I just pulled off a great rotation!” is less fun and motivating than, “I just pulled off a 30hit combo!” or, “I just hit a 3 point shot!”

fishball.7204:

Supreme.3164:

And there are dozen of skins I will never get because…I don’t pve regularly and neither I belong to a raiding guild, I don’t see why pvers should feel so entitled to anything , are we talking about the same people who kick you out if you lack the correct gear for a raid? the same ones who said to have no time to teach you this and that trick to speed up the map clearing?

…Sorry somehow I don’t feel that “good” about giving the skin for free, if not can I get a reward track for the : ghostly infusion, legendary armor etc etc?

Just for “sheer effort” I should get my hands on the anything by your logic…sorry it doesn’t work like that anywhere, you’re either good enough to get it…or you don’t that’s how reality works both in pve and pvp apparently

I guess you’re right. I just feel bad for the guys who play a lot and don’t really get anywhere.

Is there any way to make them feel somewhat rewarded and not frustration with nothing to show for it? 30 loss streaks aren’t really a good thing for the health of the game. Some people might argue they’re just bad players who don’t deserve anything but I’d rather these bad players eventually get good and integrate into the PvP community rather than just rage quit and never come back to PvP.

There must be no reward for failure that how it worked in GW1 and that’s why pvp was considered far more prestigious and in the end bad players with attitude got nothing to contribute to the pvp community anyway.

People who believe they’re entitled to anything just for showing up are also the same people who will contribute the less to the victory.

How does it work? People that didn’t care about pvp at all for the last 3 years, didn’t practice or anything, suddenly show up and expect to be rewarded just for doing that

And btw, you don’t need to be ESL material to get those ugly wings, as long as you know the basics of PvP ( liker stomp, ress, cap etc etc) you can grind your way to sapphire/ruby for 4 seasons and complete those pve achievements.

For god sake, we’re talking about the basics no tournament rotations, and yet you get these lazy people who don’t want to learn even that little, what these people got to offer to pvp anyway?

They jump on what deemed OP on the forum, copy/paste from metabattle and there..they believe those wings are within their grasps already

Rieselle.5079:

The thing is, a “teddy bear stamp for participation” doesn’t really work as a reward either.
The best way to encourage players to stay, is to have gameplay that is fun enough to keep them playing even when losing.

I used to play in an amateur basketball league. We were totally casual and near the bottom, we’d win some but most of our opponents were better.

Even when losing, matches were still enjoyable because of the little personal wins along the way. When you get a point, steal the ball, get a rebound, etc etc.

Psychological wins yes good point, this is something that is completely non-existant in this league system, small wins to keep players playing. I would argue its almost non-existant across the whole of GW2, anet clearly pay no attention to gamer psychology in their reward systems, which are in general based on grinding to keep players in game and the effect on the game economy.

Great points, now can you answer this simple question: Why was the season system (shinies/badges/ whatever you want to call it) implemented? And why has Anet switched from a leaderboard to a division system?

If your answer to both is to increase the spvp population then we are in a conundrum otherwise your thread is moot.

@Rieselle you make a good point about having fun game play. Back when I played dota in WC3 there was no reward for losing but I kept playing because it was fun. GW2 PvP could be like that too.

@Cynz I recall when we had Glory and nothing to buy with it but 18 slot bags haha. You’re right PvP is nothing like PvE and perhaps my ideals of introducing PvErs to PvP to sustain population is a bad one.

I basically agree with everything you guys say, just trying to bring about different viewpoints but I’ll concede feeding people ‘teddy bear stamp for participation’ isn’t ideal.

Rieselle.5079:

fishball.7204:

I guess you’re right. I just feel bad for the guys who play a lot and don’t really get anywhere.

Is there any way to make them feel somewhat rewarded and not frustration with nothing to show for it? 30 loss streaks aren’t really a good thing for the health of the game. Some people might argue they’re just bad players who don’t deserve anything but I’d rather these bad players eventually get good and integrate into the PvP community rather than just rage quit and never come back to PvP.

The thing is, a “teddy bear stamp for participation” doesn’t really work as a reward either.
The best way to encourage players to stay, is to have gameplay that is fun enough to keep them playing even when losing.

I used to play in an amateur basketball league. We were totally casual and near the bottom, we’d win some but most of our opponents were better.

Even when losing, matches were still enjoyable because of the little personal wins along the way. When you get a point, steal the ball, get a rebound, etc etc.

Especially when you could see yourself improving, the number of shots you get into the basket going up over time, it becomes quite enjoyable.

Being an mmo, GW2 somewhat lacks those skillful moments of personal glory. Unlike a fighting game where you can feel pleased about successfully pulling off a complex combo, or defending perfectly against an opponent’s pressure. In GW2 the build vs. build matchup is a big factor, so your actual play skill is a bit less important.

The actual choices you have that makes the biggest impact is probably when and where to rotate. But “I just pulled off a great rotation!” is less fun and motivating than, “I just pulled off a 30hit combo!” or, “I just hit a 3 point shot!”

I would argue gw2 gives you plenty of opportunities to make clutch plays…. nothing better than getting a whole enemy team with rev staff 5.

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

They did the right thing, for the most part. There should be a unique and exclusive reward, through pvp, that should be challenging to earn. Most people cannot except that not everyone WILL get it. Everyone has the potential to get it, but will not. That’s how it should be.

If you are worried about progression, get your guild together and form a team. There will be no blaming of MMR hell or your teammates. If you want the profession achievement, put it on your guild team to carry you if you are not proficient at that profession.

The profession requirement was one of the main issues with the achievement. I don’t feel A-Net went far enough with the requirements. You should not be allowed to log in at the end of the match to get credit for the profession win.

Pyriall.1683:

The profession requirement was one of the main issues with the achievement. I don’t feel A-Net went far enough with the requirements. You should not be allowed to log in at the end of the match to get credit for the profession win.

I got so mad lately because I was soloqueuing and got matched with a 4-man premade and we were doing really well. It was something like 150-350 in our favor.

And then it seems like we were losing every point. Because we were. Because two people were swapping to another class. They capped points and pushed us to 350 by sweeping while two of our team members were changing characters, then they sealed the win with a Lord kill.

The kicker: They swapped to Revenants. Why in the world swap to a completely viable class. Swapping to warriors, I can have a bit more understanding with that. But letting the other team sweep so you can get your Revenant progress?

Pyriall.1683:

The profession requirement was one of the main issues with the achievement. I don’t feel A-Net went far enough with the requirements. You should not be allowed to log in at the end of the match to get credit for the profession win.

I think the daily achievement is worst part of it.

Sarrs.4831:

Pyriall.1683:

The profession requirement was one of the main issues with the achievement. I don’t feel A-Net went far enough with the requirements. You should not be allowed to log in at the end of the match to get credit for the profession win.

I got so mad lately because I was soloqueuing and got matched with a 4-man premade and we were doing really well. It was something like 150-350 in our favor.

And then it seems like we were losing every point. Because we were. Because two people were swapping to another class. They capped points and pushed us to 350 by sweeping while two of our team members were changing characters, then they sealed the win with a Lord kill.

The kicker: They swapped to Revenants. Why in the world swap to a completely viable class. Swapping to warriors, I can have a bit more understanding with that. But letting the other team sweep so you can get your Revenant progress?

kinda risky to swap when the scores are 350 – 150 , and on foefire map !!!

and 2 person swapping together ? ???

Sarrs.4831:

Pyriall.1683:

The profession requirement was one of the main issues with the achievement. I don’t feel A-Net went far enough with the requirements. You should not be allowed to log in at the end of the match to get credit for the profession win.

I got so mad lately because I was soloqueuing and got matched with a 4-man premade and we were doing really well. It was something like 150-350 in our favor.

And then it seems like we were losing every point. Because we were. Because two people were swapping to another class. They capped points and pushed us to 350 by sweeping while two of our team members were changing characters, then they sealed the win with a Lord kill.

The kicker: They swapped to Revenants. Why in the world swap to a completely viable class. Swapping to warriors, I can have a bit more understanding with that. But letting the other team sweep so you can get your Revenant progress?

You shouldn’t be able to profession swap after the game has already started.

Pyriall.1683:

You shouldn’t be able to profession swap after the game has already started.

I know. I just wanted to tell a sad story.

Sarrs.4831:

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

Unfortauntely it’s not just an issue in this game, people in general, seem to have the mindset of “I want this, so it should be mine” in modern society.

I’ve noticed it seems to be the same few people that are posting, being annoyed with match making, saying they’re not being rewarded for PvPing etc. I’m not trying to get on these peoples cases, I’m interested to know if they PvPed much before the Leagues, or did they just start when the backpiece was revealed, as a reward.

There’s no way for us tell if people are playing really well, and that it’s their team mates that are the problem, or if they’re somewhat oblivious to their own shortcomings. The only way to tell, is if they post video footage.

I’ve not experienced this “MMR Hell” that is apparently rampant in the game. I’ve been enjoying Season 2 and haven’t had a problem advancing through the Divisions. Not saying I’m great or anything, as I’m not. I’m more than likely around an average skill level. I’ve only PvP’d for a year and a few months now, so I’m nowhere near the skill of the pros, that have done it since launch.

I can see their frustration, at these big losing streaks, no one likes losing. Perhaps if they took a break after a loss, it might help a bit? If I lose a game, I’ll stop and do something else. Not only does it work wonders for your state of mind, it also stops you getting paired up with/against the same players.

Most of this issue could have been solved by just making those wings a skin or by making legendary tier backpacks available via additional acquisition methods. Multi-tier, mastery gated, gold sink collection grinds. Raiding. WvW. Right now the only alternative is fractals… and when it comes down to fractals or pvp… I’ll pvp thanks.

@ OP: Very good points and I largely agree. However, there’s another aspect to this.

Chaith in one of the replies to someone on that thread mentioned the rewards that Gladiators in WoW can get as a comparison. However, there’s a pretty large portion of the population that’kitten Legendary status. I’d love to hear some exact stats, but I’m pretty sure it’s a much larger percentage of the population. Because of this, it’s going to be harder to get people to see the Legendary rank as something just for the top players and instead many people think that because they think that they are above average, they should be legendary too.

At the end of the day, it’s got to be a balancing nightmare for ANet since we have a community that has a huge sense of entitlement, which doesn’t seem to comprehend that in competitive PvP, we can’t all be winners.

Yasi.9065:

Anet should have made the wings available through a seasons-only reward track. Adding those professional achievements just was added insult to injury.
Of course ap hunter then go and try to get that last 1 ap… kittening up matches for four other players.
Stupid, just plain stupid.

agree with this +1

Dahkeus.8243:

@ OP: Very good points and I largely agree. However, there’s another aspect to this.

Chaith in one of the replies to someone on that thread mentioned the rewards that Gladiators in WoW can get as a comparison. However, there’s a pretty large portion of the population that’kitten Legendary status. I’d love to hear some exact stats, but I’m pretty sure it’s a much larger percentage of the population. Because of this, it’s going to be harder to get people to see the Legendary rank as something just for the top players and instead many people think that because they think that they are above average, they should be legendary too.

At the end of the day, it’s got to be a balancing nightmare for ANet since we have a community that has a huge sense of entitlement, which doesn’t seem to comprehend that in competitive PvP, we can’t all be winners.

you don’t need to reach legendary rank to obtain the rewards

Zynt.5769:

Sarrs.4831:

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

Unfortauntely it’s not just an issue in this game, people in general, seem to have the mindset of “I want this, so it should be mine” in modern society.

I’ve noticed it seems to be the same few people that are posting, being annoyed with match making, saying they’re not being rewarded for PvPing etc. I’m not trying to get on these peoples cases, I’m interested to know if they PvPed much before the Leagues, or did they just start when the backpiece was revealed, as a reward.

There’s no way for us tell if people are playing really well, and that it’s their team mates that are the problem, or if they’re somewhat oblivious to their own shortcomings. The only way to tell, is if they post video footage.

I’ve not experienced this “MMR Hell” that is apparently rampant in the game. I’ve been enjoying Season 2 and haven’t had a problem advancing through the Divisions. Not saying I’m great or anything, as I’m not. I’m more than likely around an average skill level. I’ve only PvP’d for a year and a few months now, so I’m nowhere near the skill of the pros, that have done it since launch.

I can see their frustration, at these big losing streaks, no one likes losing. Perhaps if they took a break after a loss, it might help a bit? If I lose a game, I’ll stop and do something else. Not only does it work wonders for your state of mind, it also stops you getting paired up with/against the same players.

taking breaks has never worked for me

Well my philosophy is if you aren’t that good you shouldn’t get it. The sense of entitlement is strong in players any more.

That being said I do hate the class achievments. Would rather something else due to the need of having players at thier best for every ranked game.

Azukas.1426:

Well my philosophy is if you aren’t that good you shouldn’t get it. The sense of entitlement is strong in players any more.

That being said I do hate the class achievments. Would rather something else due to the need of having players at thier best for every ranked game.

Yeah the class achievments was a stupid idea in my opinion. Sarrs mentioned previously about being in a game, where 2 team mates switched classes mid game, to get the achievments and ended causing them to lose the game.

godsie.2864:

Zynt.5769:

Sarrs.4831:

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

Unfortauntely it’s not just an issue in this game, people in general, seem to have the mindset of “I want this, so it should be mine” in modern society.

I’ve noticed it seems to be the same few people that are posting, being annoyed with match making, saying they’re not being rewarded for PvPing etc. I’m not trying to get on these peoples cases, I’m interested to know if they PvPed much before the Leagues, or did they just start when the backpiece was revealed, as a reward.

There’s no way for us tell if people are playing really well, and that it’s their team mates that are the problem, or if they’re somewhat oblivious to their own shortcomings. The only way to tell, is if they post video footage.

I’ve not experienced this “MMR Hell” that is apparently rampant in the game. I’ve been enjoying Season 2 and haven’t had a problem advancing through the Divisions. Not saying I’m great or anything, as I’m not. I’m more than likely around an average skill level. I’ve only PvP’d for a year and a few months now, so I’m nowhere near the skill of the pros, that have done it since launch.

I can see their frustration, at these big losing streaks, no one likes losing. Perhaps if they took a break after a loss, it might help a bit? If I lose a game, I’ll stop and do something else. Not only does it work wonders for your state of mind, it also stops you getting paired up with/against the same players.

taking breaks has never worked for me

Out of interest, what class/build do you play?

godsie.2864:

Dahkeus.8243:

@ OP: Very good points and I largely agree. However, there’s another aspect to this.

Chaith in one of the replies to someone on that thread mentioned the rewards that Gladiators in WoW can get as a comparison. However, there’s a pretty large portion of the population that’kitten Legendary status. I’d love to hear some exact stats, but I’m pretty sure it’s a much larger percentage of the population. Because of this, it’s going to be harder to get people to see the Legendary rank as something just for the top players and instead many people think that because they think that they are above average, they should be legendary too.

At the end of the day, it’s got to be a balancing nightmare for ANet since we have a community that has a huge sense of entitlement, which doesn’t seem to comprehend that in competitive PvP, we can’t all be winners.

you don’t need to reach legendary rank to obtain the rewards

I guess I wasn’t very clear in what I was saying, so sorry for that. Yes, you don’t need legendary for wings, but there’s a mix of upset players who either believe they should hit legendary or others, like the person in the other thread linked, who are even having trouble with the ranks needed for the wing achievements.

Zynt.5769:

Yeah the class achievments was a stupid idea in my opinion. Sarrs mentioned previously about being in a game, where 2 team mates switched classes mid game, to get the achievments and ended causing them to lose the game.

To be clear, I don’t mind the class achievements, I think they could have merit. But not so long as they encourage such degenerate strategies to try to clear the achievements.

Sarrs.4831:

Zynt.5769:

Yeah the class achievments was a stupid idea in my opinion. Sarrs mentioned previously about being in a game, where 2 team mates switched classes mid game, to get the achievments and ended causing them to lose the game.

To be clear, I don’t mind the class achievements, I think they could have merit. But not so long as they encourage such degenerate strategies to try to clear the achievements.

I think preventing people from switching class after the game has started, would be good first step lol.

SoPP.7034:

GW2 has changed a lot since its vanilla days and some would say for the worse.

When it comes to being “the worse”, in general and in life, I know where I could start forming a list. By the way OP, how can you state in another thread that you are aware of the design flaws of this season and complain it’s the players fault? Seriously???

DeWolfe.2174:

how can you state in another thread that you are aware of the design flaws of this season and complain it’s the players fault? Seriously???

Woah, easy partner. I believe in the faults that I’ve spoken off.

This thread was born more from the fact that even after making S1 legendary and currently S2 diamond I had a sense of it being a lot more work than I’d anticipated. Some of it skill, some of it luck.

Ithilwen.1529 post just made me think deeper about that concept and why it was that I had a certain level of ‘surprise’ despite my level of ‘success’ in leagues. When in his case, the situation seems far worse.

As such it was MY historical subconscious understanding of GW2 and its casual nature than anything else that lead to this post, Ithilwen.1529 merely provided the catalyst.

Tbh, if I blame anyone it would be the PvP team for creating a somewhat jarring experience that’s out of line with GW2 history. But that’s getting into a different conversation all together.

So no I don’t blame the player, if anything, I’m sympathetic to players like Ithilwen.1529 and their plight.

Wing should be for people who got to legendary rank only. It really losses all meaning when you can get it in 3-4 seasons and never gt pass ruby. There are plenty of pve rewards a pvp player will never get there is nothing wrong with some pvp only stuff.
I do however think the match making in season 2 has more or less kittened of over 1/2 of the pvpers maybe more. They could have done better to implement a system where skill is rewarded without making the avg player’s life a hell.

Can’t they do it like GW1 and capes? Everyone who PvPs gets a cape, but only tournament winners get a trim.

So GW2, the PvE argument is this is the only legendary backpiece available, and they want it for the stats since they think it’s an ugly skin anyways. So maybe Anet could make it so anyone who PvPs can get the backpiece, but top players get a unique trim/aura/effect on the backpiece itself?

Boom. Everyone wins. PvErs get their legendary. PvPers get a slightly more prestigious version.

Finally! Someone who can put a coherent thought behind what I wanted to say is one of the biggest problems with this game and to a larger scope, a lot of the gaming industry in general right now! Thank you!

Zynt.5769:

godsie.2864:

Zynt.5769:

Sarrs.4831:

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

Unfortauntely it’s not just an issue in this game, people in general, seem to have the mindset of “I want this, so it should be mine” in modern society.

I’ve noticed it seems to be the same few people that are posting, being annoyed with match making, saying they’re not being rewarded for PvPing etc. I’m not trying to get on these peoples cases, I’m interested to know if they PvPed much before the Leagues, or did they just start when the backpiece was revealed, as a reward.

There’s no way for us tell if people are playing really well, and that it’s their team mates that are the problem, or if they’re somewhat oblivious to their own shortcomings. The only way to tell, is if they post video footage.

I’ve not experienced this “MMR Hell” that is apparently rampant in the game. I’ve been enjoying Season 2 and haven’t had a problem advancing through the Divisions. Not saying I’m great or anything, as I’m not. I’m more than likely around an average skill level. I’ve only PvP’d for a year and a few months now, so I’m nowhere near the skill of the pros, that have done it since launch.

I can see their frustration, at these big losing streaks, no one likes losing. Perhaps if they took a break after a loss, it might help a bit? If I lose a game, I’ll stop and do something else. Not only does it work wonders for your state of mind, it also stops you getting paired up with/against the same players.

taking breaks has never worked for me

Out of interest, what class/build do you play?

I have always tended to be strongest in D/F auramancer support ele, but also have been playing reaper necro and dh guardan

Mogar.9216:

Wing should be for people who got to legendary rank only. It really losses all meaning when you can get it in 3-4 seasons and never gt pass ruby. There are plenty of pve rewards a pvp player will never get there is nothing wrong with some pvp only stuff.
I do however think the match making in season 2 has more or less kittened of over 1/2 of the pvpers maybe more. They could have done better to implement a system where skill is rewarded without making the avg player’s life a hell.

is the legendary backpack a PVE item with stat switching – the only one currently available in the game – I think if you work hard over time commit to pvp and improve over time I think you should be able to get it whether u reach legendary rank or not.

Also I assume they did it to prop up the dwindling pvp player base -

there are other things such as the badges and titles that show off someone with legendary status – so no I think if you work hard dedicate and put the time and effort in you should be able to get it – of course you still have to earn it and not just get it for nothing

bloodpyrope.8630:

Can’t they do it like GW1 and capes? Everyone who PvPs gets a cape, but only tournament winners get a trim.

So GW2, the PvE argument is this is the only legendary backpiece available, and they want it for the stats since they think it’s an ugly skin anyways. So maybe Anet could make it so anyone who PvPs can get the backpiece, but top players get a unique trim/aura/effect on the backpiece itself?

Boom. Everyone wins. PvErs get their legendary. PvPers get a slightly more prestigious version.

agree with this

godsie.2864:

Zynt.5769:

godsie.2864:

Zynt.5769:

Sarrs.4831:

Firstly, that response wasn’t really intended to be a conclusive criticism or an analysis of the other thread’s opening post or even just me being mean: It was exclusively a challenge. Which is what the PvP divisions, and earning the wings, are supposed to be. They’re supposed to be something which you go out and conquer, and even though S2 has had matchmaking issues, I am fully convinced that this is still the state of the content. If someone’s upset or feels slighted by the MM system then turn that passion into productive energy and use that energy to get better at the game.

In the context of that thread, it’s especially so. The thread’s OP was sad that because they missed the first season of the year they didn’t believe that they’d be able to hit the division clear requirement for the achievements, but that assumes that the MM rules remain the same, when ANet’s all but confirmed that they won’t. It’s entirely likely that if they are indeed in MMR hell, the next season will give them an opportunity to leave that hell and get back to winning and/or grinning.

But there are two other points I’d like to touch on;

1. Toxicity. This is a tricky one but I honestly don’t believe that the seasons’ structure, or the playerbase, have actually become more toxic, for two key reasons.

Firstly, there’s the very flat analysis that I believe this toxicity has always been a part of the GW2 game. It’s always a part of any online game, but it’s not necessarily the case that this toxicity has increased- proportionally, at least. I think it’s not an unfair analysis that more people are participating in the Ranked seasons. So where do these increased rates of ‘toxic interactions’ come from?… The rate hasn’t increased, it’s just the raw numbers of posts on gw2 forums, reddit, etc has increased.

Secondly, the toxicity’s coming out because people are actually being put to the grinder and need to prove themselves to push through divisions. The stakes have never been higher for the average player- so of course that high pressure results in higher emotions. But personally, I’d rather have emotions running, at least in some content, than to have it all be nice and comfortable all the way through. After all, if you want to just play comfortably, there’s Unranked and Hotjoin.

2. Reward ‘entitlement’. This has, I think, also been a big problem in GW2. Like I said just before, players have never been put to the grinder. Almost every item in the game has been “if you work for long enough, you’ll get this thing!” with very few exceptions- Unless you have extremely ambitious goals, like earning every BLTC skin on release, but let’s leave that for now. The Wings seem to generate this much controversy strictly because they demand that players be willing to not only put forth effort but better themselves- at least, if you missed a season. But this texture, the rewards which you have to work for, are something that GW2’s been sorely lacking since launch- and you’re right, it’s also what’s getting the “gimme ezmode raids!” feathers ruffled.

Part of me wishes that the Wings may have even required Diamond or Legendary, just so it’s very clear that this is the intent, that you have to push to get better at the game, rather than the game saying “oh you’re not very good? that’s okay, you had great attendance on your classes, you get an A!”

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point of the thread, but hopefully I’ve written something that can provide some insight.

Unfortauntely it’s not just an issue in this game, people in general, seem to have the mindset of “I want this, so it should be mine” in modern society.

I’ve noticed it seems to be the same few people that are posting, being annoyed with match making, saying they’re not being rewarded for PvPing etc. I’m not trying to get on these peoples cases, I’m interested to know if they PvPed much before the Leagues, or did they just start when the backpiece was revealed, as a reward.

There’s no way for us tell if people are playing really well, and that it’s their team mates that are the problem, or if they’re somewhat oblivious to their own shortcomings. The only way to tell, is if they post video footage.

I’ve not experienced this “MMR Hell” that is apparently rampant in the game. I’ve been enjoying Season 2 and haven’t had a problem advancing through the Divisions. Not saying I’m great or anything, as I’m not. I’m more than likely around an average skill level. I’ve only PvP’d for a year and a few months now, so I’m nowhere near the skill of the pros, that have done it since launch.

I can see their frustration, at these big losing streaks, no one likes losing. Perhaps if they took a break after a loss, it might help a bit? If I lose a game, I’ll stop and do something else. Not only does it work wonders for your state of mind, it also stops you getting paired up with/against the same players.

taking breaks has never worked for me

Out of interest, what class/build do you play?

I have always tended to be strongest in D/F auramancer support ele, but also have been playing reaper necro and dh guardan

Ahhh, yes D/F Aura Share Ele. That can be a mixed bag, since you won’t be putting out much damage, so you’ll be relying on your team to do that, and needing to stay at the team fight, to be effective.

You seem like a reasonable person, given that you said you’re always willing to improve yourself. Medi Trap Guard might be a pretty good one to go with. Of course it’s always best to changes class, depending on the team and enemy comp, but in my experience, the Medi Trap Guard works pretty well this season.

that’s what I do assessing team compositions beforehand try and see what fits
I like the playstyle – supporting not great with damage dealing professions I like to feel I am more of a supporter but there you go
I keep on trying anyway

bloodpyrope.8630:

Can’t they do it like GW1 and capes? Everyone who PvPs gets a cape, but only tournament winners get a trim.

So GW2, the PvE argument is this is the only legendary backpiece available, and they want it for the stats since they think it’s an ugly skin anyways. So maybe Anet could make it so anyone who PvPs can get the backpiece, but top players get a unique trim/aura/effect on the backpiece itself?

Boom. Everyone wins. PvErs get their legendary. PvPers get a slightly more prestigious version.

Well, they are doing that. Everyone who breaks through the divisions can buy the four sets of wings in turn and then turn them into the precursor which then turns into the legendary. There’s already gradual progress.