Guild Wars 2

So here is a design principle for MMOs that ANET designers failed hard:
You cannot let AOE class/build to be comparable or stronger than single target class/build in 1v1 and then let AOE dmg scale linearly (5x dmg on 5 targets) for team fights.
AOE class/build needs to be slightly weaker than single target class/build in 1v1 and slightly stronger in team fights (only achievable through diminishing returns on multiple targets of AOE dmg).

/discuss

This is something I think the devs already talked about addressing. When the vast majority of your ideal single target damage also happens to be AoE there presents a problem.

When it’s wide, frequent, and/or long-range it only adds to the problem. It all needs to be toned down a bit, hopefully without breaking any single target damage styles. Close-range is probably the only exception, but it shouldn’t be a complete exception. Close-range should have some splash, whether it remains as high as currently is, is something I’m not personally sure of yet.

And what about class that have only acces to AoE?

We won’t ever be able to 1vs1 someone because we have lower damage?

Aoe dmg is the only counter to stealth spammers, when Anet will re-desing stealth to work like in other games then we’ll talk about aoes, in other games stealth professions cannot bot stealth every 2s making impossible to target them.
In other games you’re allowed to stealth for a sneak attack and then can only re-stealth outside combat.
In the profession description is clearly stated that stealth professions can be countered..and the OP is a backstab thief( check his previosu posts), he’ just whining about counters to his stealth spamming while calling noobs aoe class users and pro those who play stealth spammers

Kardiamond.6952:

And what about class that have only acces to AoE?

We won’t ever be able to 1vs1 someone because we have lower damage?

First, I said ‘slightly’, so that it can be bridged with decent skill gap.

Second, it is their own claim they are balancing the game for 5v5. So in the context of 5v5, you would be contributing slightly more in team fights and slightly less when forced into 1v1. That is why you should try to find urself more in group fight situations (force them through the strategy).

Third, you have access to both AOE and single target builds/classes, so you should pick whatever you prefer.

What I claim is that it is totally unbalanced to let aoe class/build be stronger than single target class/build and then let AOE scale linearly in team fights (5x dmg on 5 guys). Why would anyone ever bring single target class/build into team at the same skill level.

Just a copy of the post from other topic that contributes to this one:

Question from XYZ:

… Tell me what the problem with AoE is? ….

Answer:
Well, there are many problems about scaling of AOE dmg, AOE (and single target) cc, invuls from 1v1 to 5v5. I will write a post about those and link it here.

For now I will just answer your question about AOE dmg. Problem is very simple to see:
It is about scaling from 1v1 to 5v5 and where AOE and single target dmg classes/builds are relative to each other in 1v1 and 5v5.
AOE and single target dmg scale very differently from 1v1 to 5v5. It is obvious, currently aoe class can do up to 5x ‘their dmg on signle target’ in team fights (if they catch 5 guys into their aoe).

<cleanup>, AOE class should be somewhat stronger in team fights and somewhat weaker in 1v1.

However, <cleanup> , here is the issue:
Take for example single target dmg build like d/d thief and AOE dmg build like d/d elementalist.
Let us say, for the sake of argument, that 1v1 those two are balanced (although we all know ele owns thief 1v1 at the same skill lvl).
So how can they be ‘equal’ at 1v1 when in group fights d/d elementalist’s dmg can scale up to 5x while d/d thief’s will stay the same??? Why would anyone pick single target dmg build unless he really likes to play certain class/style (build) and decide to overcome disadvantage though the skill?

So how to fix this?
Assume that they are balanced now 1v1. Then you should (for example, numbers are approximate) nerf AOE class’ dmg about 20% to about 80% where it is now. That way AOE dmg class will be somewhat weaker than single target dmg class in 1v1.

But you still cannot make them do up to 5×0.8=4 times more dmg in 5v5 fight fight. That is way too unbalanced. You also make diminishing returns on their AOE dmg: You half the dmg for each additional target. So if they hit 2 ppl at once, they do 1.2 dmg of d/d thief. If they hit 3 ppl at once they do 1.4 dmg of thief and if they hit 4 and 5 ppl they do 1.5 and 1.55 dmg of thief. That way, in team fights AOE build does, on average, up to 55% more dmg than single target build, i.e they do up to 1.55 dmg of single target build. If they catch only 2 ppl in their AOE they still do 20% more dmg. So 5 single target builds against 5 aoe builds would have significant barrier to overcome when they are forced into big team fights. On other other hand, if they force them to spread and into many 1v1s then they should have advantage.

In 2v2 they should be about equal (aoe build will do 1.2 dmg of single target build if it catches 2 ppl into aoe).
But in 1v1s they do only 0.8 dmg of single target bild, so if they are strategically forced into lots of 1v1s they would be at disadvantage.

They way they made aoe builds now is that they are actually in advantage in both 1v1 and big fights. In big fights they do up to 5x the dmg and in 1v1 they do about the same dmg (actually they are stronger in 1v1 than single target builds but let us say they are balanced).

<cleanup>. Game is actually much more balanced at 1v1 lvl than at 5v5. This is despite their claim that they balance for 5v5 (really??? lol). And even at 1v1 game is quite imbalanced, just imbalanced in the wrong direction (builds bringing ton of aoe being stronger than single target ones).

Keep in mind that AOE has many advantages. Like, let us say 5 single target melee is playing against 5 ranged AOE builds. If they focus on one AOE guy in big team fight, the teammates of AOE guy (together with him) can just spam aoe around their guy being focused. So 5 single target guys either have to eat that 5x dmg each, or they need to back off from AOE spam, which has the same effect as making their dmg zero (i.e. providing invulnerability to their AOE teammate being focused).

This puts single target melee builds (and in general melee builds) at severe disadvantage. They are essentially pigeonholed into gimicky burst builds that allow them to stay as short time as possible next to a target do their dmg and gtfo.

AOE guys do not suffer this disadvantage. They can focus their fire on one single-target guy and not expose the whole team to simultaneous dmg from all 5 enemies.

And there are so many other nuances I can talk about, but I think this is more than enough to explain the basics of the problem.

Arheundel.6451:

Aoe dmg is the only counter to stealth spammers, when Anet will re-desing stealth to work like in other games then we’ll talk about aoes, in other games stealth professions cannot bot stealth every 2s making impossible to target them.
In other games you’re allowed to stealth for a sneak attack and then can only re-stealth outside combat.
In the profession description is clearly stated that stealth professions can be countered..and the OP is a backstab thief( check his previosu posts), he’ just whining about counters to his stealth spamming while calling noobs aoe class users and pro those who play stealth spammers

Sorry but you are going into unnecessary details that obscure the issue.

The crux of the issue is this:
Despite the stealth mechanic, everyone knows d/d elementalist is stronger 1v1 than d/d thief for example (at the same skill level).
Then elementalist’s dmg scales up to 5x in group fights and d/d thief’s does not scale at all.
That is simply ridiculously bad design.

You want to derail discussion into discussion on ‘fairness’ of this or that mechanic, but that is actually irrelevant. If thieves even with stealth still lose to d/d eles in 1v1 at the same skill level, then obviously it is irrelevant to discuss each individual skill and mechanic. Result is what it is, and it is wrong.

You should stay on topic and not try to derail it with irrelevant details. I know you want to protect the insanely bad design of your class, but that is not good for the game.

You should really discuss the principle and if you agree or disagree with it. Everyone knows that shatter mesmers and d/d elementalists violate the principle.

Thieves lacking aoe dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlWzXy1ZQVI&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=39

Thief single target dmg +aoe dmg in a single build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZ_fBP8TmI

And all this is nothing much a small fraction of what thief does

Arheundel.6451:

Thieves lacking aoe dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlWzXy1ZQVI&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=39

Thief single target dmg +aoe dmg in a single build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZ_fBP8TmI

And all this is nothing much a small fraction of what thief does

Are you serious?
wvw and hotjoin videos. Hotjoin video is from oct15 before thief aoe got 15% nerf. LOL

Masternewbz.4953:

Nothing to see here,

just a spamming stealth newbie thief who thinks hes good.

Cries dying to eles 1v1.

Ellen, we both know where you are compared to me. You got destroyed by me in duels on any class you brought (yes d/d elementalist included).
Now, do not embarrass yourself further, and do not derail the topic with irrelevant nonsense. This topic is not about my or your skill. You are free to go and continue thinking you are a great player, noone cares. Just try to stay on topic.

Mufa.1326:

Arheundel.6451:

Aoe dmg is the only counter to stealth spammers, when Anet will re-desing stealth to work like in other games then we’ll talk about aoes, in other games stealth professions cannot bot stealth every 2s making impossible to target them.
In other games you’re allowed to stealth for a sneak attack and then can only re-stealth outside combat.
In the profession description is clearly stated that stealth professions can be countered..and the OP is a backstab thief( check his previosu posts), he’ just whining about counters to his stealth spamming while calling noobs aoe class users and pro those who play stealth spammers

Sorry but you are going into unnecessary details that obscure the issue.

The crux of the issue is this:
Despite the stealth mechanic, everyone knows d/d elementalist is stronger 1v1 than d/d thief for example (at the same skill level).
Then elementalist’s dmg scales up to 5x in group fights and d/d thief’s does not scale at all.
That is simply ridiculously bad design.

You want to derail discussion into discussion on ‘fairness’ of this or that mechanic, but that is actually irrelevant. If thieves even with stealth still lose to d/d eles in 1v1 at the same skill level, then obviously it is irrelevant to discuss each individual skill and mechanic. Result is what it is, and it is wrong.

You should stay on topic and not try to derail it with irrelevant details. I know you want to protect the insanely bad design of your class, but that is not good for the game.

You should really discuss the principle and if you agree or disagree with it. Everyone knows that shatter mesmers and d/d elementalists violate the principle.

Really?
Shatter mesmer are glass cannon and a d/d ele doing dmg is not a bunker and his HP reach 20% after a single backstab+heart seeker…the bunker d/d deal max 800 dmg with ring of fire and not d/d doesn’t win automatically against thieves…maybe the common BS spammer but that’s hardly the only thief build and it’s not for 1vs1 either, there is the sword/pistol build played by many thieves who got no troubles against d/d ( the hot join ones)

JUst uploaded videos of shortbow thief and pistol thieves along with aoe attack like death blossom, this skill is not aoe am I right? and what about caltrops aren’t those aoe as well?

Mufa.1326:

Arheundel.6451:

Thieves lacking aoe dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlWzXy1ZQVI&list=PLBF2912D72F052EC7&index=39

Thief single target dmg +aoe dmg in a single build
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZ_fBP8TmI

And all this is nothing much a small fraction of what thief does

Are you serious?
wvw and hotjoin videos. Hotjoin video is from oct15 before thief aoe got 15% nerf. LOL

Thief aoe 15% dmg nerf lol?
Ele aoe has been nerfed by 30% before launch, meteor storm-eruption-lava font..all of them …and here again a thief complaining, but hey you can remove the aoe from eles and give them all single target skills but with the same dmg coefficient of thief skill, would that fix your " problem"?

P.S To the moderators!
Every day there are dozen more of nerf ele threads popping out and started from the same people over and over again, every thief nerf thread get closed and people get redirected to the theif sub-forum..but here there are currently like 10 threads asking for nerfs on eles, do we really need more?

Mufa.1326:

Masternewbz.4953:

Nothing to see here,

just a spamming stealth newbie thief who thinks hes good.

Cries dying to eles 1v1.

Ellen, we both know where you are compared to me. You got destroyed by me in duels on any class you brought (yes d/d elementalist included).
Now, do not embarrass yourself further, and do not derail the topic with irrelevant nonsense. This topic is not about my or your skill. You are free to go and continue thinking you are a great player, noone cares. Just try to stay on topic.

I lol’d to this.

Idk why you are lying to yourself.

Everyone knows and have seen and will witness over and over again how I am better than you 1v1.

I will even frap it 1 day so I can stop redueling you everytime to prove something that is obvious.

Also this whole post is kind of invalid due to comming from a biased opinion from a person who plays only 1 class, 1 build and will post anything just to favour him on his own spec and playing style, wich is spam stealth with a weak backstab.

This is me Killing you Thief vs Thief after you crying I was using ele and you called me out for 1v1 mirror match. Heres the result:

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/206zfw7.jpg[/IMG]

Arheundel.6451:

Mufa.1326:

Arheundel.6451:

Aoe dmg is the only counter to stealth spammers, when Anet will re-desing stealth to work like in other games then we’ll talk about aoes, in other games stealth professions cannot bot stealth every 2s making impossible to target them.
In other games you’re allowed to stealth for a sneak attack and then can only re-stealth outside combat.
In the profession description is clearly stated that stealth professions can be countered..and the OP is a backstab thief( check his previosu posts), he’ just whining about counters to his stealth spamming while calling noobs aoe class users and pro those who play stealth spammers

Sorry but you are going into unnecessary details that obscure the issue.

The crux of the issue is this:
Despite the stealth mechanic, everyone knows d/d elementalist is stronger 1v1 than d/d thief for example (at the same skill level).
Then elementalist’s dmg scales up to 5x in group fights and d/d thief’s does not scale at all.
That is simply ridiculously bad design.

You want to derail discussion into discussion on ‘fairness’ of this or that mechanic, but that is actually irrelevant. If thieves even with stealth still lose to d/d eles in 1v1 at the same skill level, then obviously it is irrelevant to discuss each individual skill and mechanic. Result is what it is, and it is wrong.

You should stay on topic and not try to derail it with irrelevant details. I know you want to protect the insanely bad design of your class, but that is not good for the game.

You should really discuss the principle and if you agree or disagree with it. Everyone knows that shatter mesmers and d/d elementalists violate the principle.

Really?
Shatter mesmer are glass cannon and a d/d ele doing dmg is not a bunker and his HP reach 20% after a single backstab+heart seeker…the bunker d/d deal max 800 dmg with ring of fire and not d/d doesn’t win automatically against thieves…maybe the common BS spammer but that’s hardly the only thief build and it’s not for 1vs1 either, there is the sword/pistol build played by many thieves who got no troubles against d/d ( the hot join ones)

JUst uploaded videos of shortbow thief and pistol thieves along with aoe attack like death blossom, this skill is not aoe am I right? and what about caltrops aren’t those aoe as well?

Again I think you are out of topic.
Also I think you are clueless if you think that death blossom and caltrops compare to d/d ele or shatter mesmer aoe.
You are also clueless if you think that death blossom/caltrops thief can compare to d/d ele or shatter mesmer 1v1.
That thief essentially stacks one/two conditions which are extremely easily removed with very little condition removal so his dmg is very easily completely negated.

over simplifications and a bunch of crap..yeah aoes might be a problem in many situations but aoes are the vast majority of this games attacks.Most melee are aoes with splash damage,many range attacks pierce or have splash damage etc..The only class that has insanely single target burst is the thief and if you count the damage number its already too high.

Also doing 20 k over 5 people which means 4k damage at each leaving them at 3/4 health is worse than instagibbing with 20k burst a guy and completely removing it from the fight (assuming you stomp).So there it goes you argument about doing x5 damage.Not to mention that you rarely fight 5vs5 and the enemies are not sheeps that stand close to get hit by your aoe.
No sir ,no more dumbing down the game.Learn to spread out :O

Masternewbz.4953:

Mufa.1326:

Masternewbz.4953:

Nothing to see here,

just a spamming stealth newbie thief who thinks hes good.

Cries dying to eles 1v1.

Ellen, we both know where you are compared to me. You got destroyed by me in duels on any class you brought (yes d/d elementalist included).
Now, do not embarrass yourself further, and do not derail the topic with irrelevant nonsense. This topic is not about my or your skill. You are free to go and continue thinking you are a great player, noone cares. Just try to stay on topic.

I lol’d to this.

Idk why you are lying to yourself.

Everyone knows and have seen and will witness over and over again how I am better than you 1v1.

I will even frap it 1 day so I can stop redueling you everytime to prove something that is obvious.

Also this whole post is kind of invalid due to comming from a biased opinion from a person who plays only 1 class, 1 build and will post anything just to favour him on his own spec and playing style, wich is spam stealth with a weak backstab.

Eh?
Look, if it makes it easier to live with yourself when you delude yourself to think you are better, then go ahead by all means.

I always laughed about how pathetic it is that you treasure screenshot of one of the rare times you actually downed me in a duel. If I was saving the screenshots of downing you in duels, my hard drive would run out of space.

Now can you please stop flooding topic with irrelevant nonsense?

Try to discuss the design principle. (you know the topic)

I believe the devs were talking about ele single target damage versus ele aoe damage and how they compare to each other. Nothing to do with thieves as we all know they’re not getting nerfed soon (looks at venoms buff for proof).

So all I read ITT is: Kill elementalists, indirectly buff thieves, keep mesmers the way they are.

A big f* to the op

Mufa.1326:

So here is a design principle for MMOs that ANET designers failed hard:
You cannot let AOE class/build to be comparable or stronger than single target class/build in 1v1 and then let AOE dmg scale linearly (5x dmg on 5 targets) for team fights.
AOE class/build needs to be slightly weaker than single target class/build in 1v1 and slightly stronger in team fights (only achievable through diminishing returns on multiple targets of AOE dmg).

/discuss

According to who? Horrible PvP MMOs like WoW?

AoE has drawbacks like delays before activation (compare Dragon’s Tooth to Newb Seeker), aiming (skillshots), longer cooldowns, and they already do less damage than zero skill newb classes like thief.

If anything, AoE is weaker than it should be in GW2 because of the sPvP game design focusing on holding tiny little shoe box sized capture points.

Sigh, another indirect ele-bashing and nerf-ele QQ thread.

For the love of all the Risen Chicken struggling to cross the road, mods, please merge “Nerf Ele Threads.” -_-

Everyone here is talking about nerfing ele damage so they aren’t as good 1v1, but ele damage has nothing to do with their 1v1 potential. Ele damage already sucks on a single target. I run just about full glass in wvw and spvp/tpvp, and my entire burst combo combined does about 2/3 the damage of a single hundred blades. You can’t just ignore the benefit of downing someone instantly which other classes are able to do just because eles can spread more damage around over time.

Ele is already getting their survivability nerfed a lot next patch. Wait and see if they’re still problematic after that instead of just knee jerk gutting every aspect of the class at once.

Masternewbz.4953:

Mufa.1326:

Masternewbz.4953:

Nothing to see here,

just a spamming stealth newbie thief who thinks hes good.

Cries dying to eles 1v1.

Ellen, we both know where you are compared to me. You got destroyed by me in duels on any class you brought (yes d/d elementalist included).
Now, do not embarrass yourself further, and do not derail the topic with irrelevant nonsense. This topic is not about my or your skill. You are free to go and continue thinking you are a great player, noone cares. Just try to stay on topic.

I lol’d to this.

Idk why you are lying to yourself.

Everyone knows and have seen and will witness over and over again how I am better than you 1v1.

I will even frap it 1 day so I can stop redueling you everytime to prove something that is obvious.

Also this whole post is kind of invalid due to comming from a biased opinion from a person who plays only 1 class, 1 build and will post anything just to favour him on his own spec and playing style, wich is spam stealth with a weak backstab.

This is me Killing you Thief vs Thief after you crying I was using ele and you called me out for 1v1 mirror match. Heres the result:

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/206zfw7.jpg[/IMG]

From personal witness of Soko versus eles. You can’t kill him. And if you do do enough damage to kill Soko, he would kill you first. I personally believe that you are the “noob”.

ppl…pls no more discussion who is better etc. Just stay on the topic…..please let us stop the nonsense. It is irrelevant.

dreztina.4820:

Everyone here is talking about nerfing ele damage so they aren’t as good 1v1, but ele damage has nothing to do with their 1v1 potential. Ele damage already sucks on a single target. I run just about full glass in wvw and spvp/tpvp, and my entire burst combo combined does about 2/3 the damage of a single hundred blades. You can’t just ignore the benefit of downing someone instantly which other classes are able to do just because eles can spread more damage around over time.

Ele is already getting their survivability nerfed a lot next patch. Wait and see if they’re still problematic after that instead of just knee jerk gutting every aspect of the class at once.

I was talking primarily about their 1v1 strength.

The principle I proposed is that: aoe class/build cannot be stronger or comparable to single-target class/build in 1v1 and then get extra benefit of dmg scaling into 5v5.

How they fix them, through survivability or dmg, I do not care personally.

I also think that d/d elementalists got overemphasized in the discussion. Shatter mesmer is in the similar situation and in general dmg should not scale linearly (aoe hitting 5 ppl should not do total of 5x the dmg).

Caffynated.5713:

Mufa.1326:

So here is a design principle for MMOs that ANET designers failed hard:
You cannot let AOE class/build to be comparable or stronger than single target class/build in 1v1 and then let AOE dmg scale linearly (5x dmg on 5 targets) for team fights.
AOE class/build needs to be slightly weaker than single target class/build in 1v1 and slightly stronger in team fights (only achievable through diminishing returns on multiple targets of AOE dmg).

/discuss

According to who? Horrible PvP MMOs like WoW?

AoE has drawbacks like delays before activation (compare Dragon’s Tooth to Newb Seeker), aiming (skillshots), longer cooldowns, and they already do less damage than zero skill newb classes like thief.

If anything, AoE is weaker than it should be in GW2 because of the sPvP game design focusing on holding tiny little shoe box sized capture points.

According to who WHAT?

Do you disagree with the principle?
Or do you disagree that d/d elementalists and shatter mesmers violate the principle?

Details you mention comparing skills and stealth etc are irrelevant. All of that is already encompassed into 1v1 strength. Do you think d/d elementalists or shatter mesmers are weak in 1v1 against single target dmg classes?

Looking at Mesmers. They can duel, they can team fight. You have to be really stupid to not understand how imbalanced this class’ mechanics are. You’re telling me turtling based on blurred Frenzy’s cool down is so hard in a duel? You’re telling me getting a shatter off in team fights is hard? Apply what you learned as a Mesmer on a class that takes effort, chances are you’re going to fail.

Mufa.1326:

Caffynated.5713:

Mufa.1326:

So here is a design principle for MMOs that ANET designers failed hard:
You cannot let AOE class/build to be comparable or stronger than single target class/build in 1v1 and then let AOE dmg scale linearly (5x dmg on 5 targets) for team fights.
AOE class/build needs to be slightly weaker than single target class/build in 1v1 and slightly stronger in team fights (only achievable through diminishing returns on multiple targets of AOE dmg).

/discuss

According to who? Horrible PvP MMOs like WoW?

AoE has drawbacks like delays before activation (compare Dragon’s Tooth to Newb Seeker), aiming (skillshots), longer cooldowns, and they already do less damage than zero skill newb classes like thief.

If anything, AoE is weaker than it should be in GW2 because of the sPvP game design focusing on holding tiny little shoe box sized capture points.

According to who WHAT?

Do you disagree with the principle?
Or do you disagree that d/d elementalists and shatter mesmers violate the principle?

Details you mention comparing skills and stealth etc are irrelevant. All of that is already encompassed into 1v1 strength. Do you think d/d elementalists or shatter mesmers are weak in 1v1 against single target dmg classes?

D/D ELE AND SHATTER MESMERS HAVEN’T GOT A SINGLE TARGET SKILL COMPARABLE TO HEART SEEKERS SPAMMERS, GET YOUR FACT STRAIGHT!

Schwahrheit.4203:

Looking at Mesmers. They can duel, they can team fight. You have to be really stupid to not understand how imbalanced this class’ mechanics are. You’re telling me turtling based on blurred Frenzy’s cool down is so hard in a duel? You’re telling me getting a shatter off in team fights is hard? Apply what you learned as a Mesmer on a class that takes effort, chances are you’re going to fail.

If you want to play glass cannon GS warrior hero and still charge head down in a zerg fight..you deserve to be bursted down, if you want to to charge in a zerg fight..you don’t build glass cannon.

But hey why don’t you propose to change D/D ele and mesmer aoes to single target skills which of course will deal more dmg? So shall we change ele aoe to single target skills with more dmg? …oh boy I gonna back you up all the way if you suggest that

Arheundel.6451:

But hey why don’t you propose to change D/D ele and mesmer aoes to single target skills which of course will deal more dmg? So shall we change ele aoe to single target skills with more dmg? …oh boy I gonna back you up all the way if you suggest that

That would be awesome.

Problem is, you now can’t do anything about stealthed targets with single target skills. :O

Arheundel.6451:

D/D ELE AND SHATTER MESMERS HAVEN’T GOT A SINGLE TARGET SKILL COMPARABLE TO HEART SEEKERS SPAMMERS, GET YOUR FACT STRAIGHT!

Dude, it is irrelevant. Going into details of what each class has just goes off topic.

The fact is that shatter mesmer and d/d ele and s/d ele are one of the strongest, if not the strongest 1v1 classes. And then their AOE (and team abilities and healing) scales like crazy in team fights.

Do you deny that fact? Or do you think shatter mesmers and d/d eles are much weaker in 1v1 than single target classes/builds?

Mufa.1326:

Arheundel.6451:

D/D ELE AND SHATTER MESMERS HAVEN’T GOT A SINGLE TARGET SKILL COMPARABLE TO HEART SEEKERS SPAMMERS, GET YOUR FACT STRAIGHT!

Dude, it is irrelevant. Going into details of what each class has just goes off topic.

The fact is that shatter mesmer and d/d ele and s/d ele are one of the strongest, if not the strongest 1v1 classes. And then their AOE (and team abilities and healing) scales like crazy in team fights.

Do you deny that fact? Or do you think shatter mesmers and d/d eles are much weaker in 1v1 than single target classes/builds?

When you proclaim that any counter argument by anyone in your thread is irrelevant and leading them into your very leading and biased questions and opinions without supporting them in any way, then there is no way this thread is going to discuss anything meaningful.

Yes. Certain AOE skills will definitely have much higher DPS output compared to certain single-target skills when taken into account the number of potential targets an AOE can cover which is limited to 5. However, saying that other factors such as skill cooldowns and the fact that you can simply walk out of most AOEs red circles and that single target skills are generally auto-targetted and home-in like heat seeking missiles are irrelevant, will obviously win you the case. However, DPS IS NOT THE ONLY THING YOU SHOULD CONSIDER IN THE DESIGN PRINCIPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE. Certain classes and weapon sets were designed to be AOE-centric or single-target damage focused. Certain builds and classes are weak against AOE, some are difficult to kill using single target skills because of WTF mechanics like stealth. This s a much more complicated issue than just a matter of DPS difference. I just wish Anet gets this thing right.

Mufa.1326:

dreztina.4820:

Everyone here is talking about nerfing ele damage so they aren’t as good 1v1, but ele damage has nothing to do with their 1v1 potential. Ele damage already sucks on a single target. I run just about full glass in wvw and spvp/tpvp, and my entire burst combo combined does about 2/3 the damage of a single hundred blades. You can’t just ignore the benefit of downing someone instantly which other classes are able to do just because eles can spread more damage around over time.

Ele is already getting their survivability nerfed a lot next patch. Wait and see if they’re still problematic after that instead of just knee jerk gutting every aspect of the class at once.

I was talking primarily about their 1v1 strength.

The principle I proposed is that: aoe class/build cannot be stronger or comparable to single-target class/build in 1v1 and then get extra benefit of dmg scaling into 5v5.

How they fix them, through survivability or dmg, I do not care personally.

I also think that d/d elementalists got overemphasized in the discussion. Shatter mesmer is in the similar situation and in general dmg should not scale linearly (aoe hitting 5 ppl should not do total of 5x the dmg).

Shatter mesmer damage scales down with how many illusions they have up. So this means that a single illusion will do more damage individually than three illusions. So this means a three illusion mindwrack will do more damage than a single illusion yes. But each illusions damage is individually less than an individual shatter. So it is already scaled sir. Also our shatters are the only source we have of burst damage…. Where as thieves… just LOL… Lets call this what it is. You are worried that other classes can keep up with your burst. Now if they give us awesome single target burst that doesn’t rely on shatters I am all for it. However don’t try to make this a nerf AOE damage because we know how good cluster bomb can be even after the nerf. Just stop trying to ruin other classes.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Looking at Mesmers. They can duel, they can team fight. You have to be really stupid to not understand how imbalanced this class’ mechanics are. You’re telling me turtling based on blurred Frenzy’s cool down is so hard in a duel? You’re telling me getting a shatter off in team fights is hard? Apply what you learned as a Mesmer on a class that takes effort, chances are you’re going to fail.

ALL mesmer illusion summons rely on “You must have an enemy targeted to use that skill” So that means we have about 3 seconds to get a thief down considering that our weapons only give us 2 AOE skills one of which is LOL. And w/o blurred frenzy mesmers chances to block are just well a joke because the only other option is on a long cool down and any weapon blocks we have only block one attack and not for an entire duration.

Guys, please have so much sense to understand that discussing skill coodlowns and other skill characteristics is irrelevant.

That is all encompassed in the following fact:
Shatter mesmer and d/d elementalists are mostly AOE dmg classes that are comparable or stronger than single target dmg classes/builds.

It is irrelevant how classes/builds get to that strength in 1v1, what IS relevant is that they are there.
And then what is further relevant is that they become MUCH stronger than single target dmg class/build in team fights.

That is severely bad design.

I am sorry many people just cannot follow and get lost in the details.

Mufa.1326:

Guys, please have so much sense to understand that discussing skill coodlowns and other skill characteristics is irrelevant.

That is all encompassed in the following fact:
Shatter mesmer and d/d elementalists are mostly AOE dmg classes that are comparable or stronger than single target dmg classes/builds.

It is irrelevant how classes/builds get to that strength in 1v1, what IS relevant is that they are there.
And then what is further relevant is that they become MUCH stronger than single target dmg class/build in team fights.

That is severely bad design.

I am sorry many people just cannot follow and get lost in the details.

We aren’t lost… You want our AOE damage nerfed when we have no other viable source of damage. It’s cool. We got it. But your idea is just terrible and you are so deluded in your backstab insta kill build that you refuse to see that we have no other options. Got it? Comprende? We have broken it down plenty for you.

Name “mesmers op” and without fail that newbie will pop up.

Anyway, OP, edit your original post and include the fact that you’re a thief, it’s a major comedy factor that you’re overlooking so many readers are missing out.

So is this how it is now? Ele’s not only are hard to kill thanks to that one effing build, now they also do too much aoe damage, they have too much mobility, too much everything. So obviously, the thief players wants to pretty much delete them.

You say that this also goes for shatter mesmers, yeah sure buddy. One doesn’t have to be a genius to realize that 95% of the abilities that a D/D ele has, are AoE. So wtf are you suggesting? Stop with the bs please

People like the op are sickening tbh. Contribute nothing to a valuable discussion by subtly posting their QQ claims in a polite manner. Real clever bro, I’ll troll you back by posting a subtle thief QQ thread shortly, they’re too op, I can counter them apparently but I’ll still raise my voice to cry like the little kitten I am.

Mufa.1326:

Guys, please have so much sense to understand that discussing skill coodlowns and other skill characteristics is irrelevant.

That is all encompassed in the following fact:
Shatter mesmer and d/d elementalists are mostly AOE dmg classes that are comparable or stronger than single target dmg classes/builds.

It is irrelevant how classes/builds get to that strength in 1v1, what IS relevant is that they are there.
And then what is further relevant is that they become MUCH stronger than single target dmg class/build in team fights.

That is severely bad design.

I am sorry many people just cannot follow and get lost in the details.

You are impossible man. With all the reasonable stuff and argument some of us are saying to help out improve this discussion, you just merely go back saying irrelevant this, irrelevant that.

Mods, for the love of all Risen Chickens, please close or delete this thread. It’s clearly a troll post. -_-

Razor.6392:

Name “mesmers op” and without fail that newbie will pop up.

Anyway, OP, edit your original post and include the fact that you’re a thief, it’s a major comedy factor that you’re overlooking so many readers are missing out.

So is this how it is now? Ele’s not only are hard to kill thanks to that one effing build, now they also do too much aoe damage, they have too much mobility, too much everything. So obviously, the thief players wants to pretty much delete them.

You say that this also goes for shatter mesmers, yeah sure buddy. One doesn’t have to be a genius to realize that 95% of the abilities that a D/D ele has, are AoE. So wtf are you suggesting? Stop with the bs please

People like the op are sickening tbh. Contribute nothing to a valuable discussion by subtly posting their QQ claims in a polite manner. Real clever bro, I’ll troll you back by posting a subtle thief QQ thread shortly, they’re too op, I can counter them apparently but I’ll still raise my voice to cry like the little kitten I am.

I have a suggestion that I think everyone except the OP will like and it even includes his desire to nerf AOE for ele’s mesmers and any other class that has high dmg AOE abilities. Go ahead nerf it that’s FINE… Here is another suggestion because the stealth spamming is too much (just ask anyone who isn’t a thief). The MOMENT a thief goes into stealth and the other players no longer have something to target we break combat and immediately regen health (like mobs do in PvE when the thief goes stealth). This won’t nerf stealth in itself but instead buff all players that have to deal with stealth. And just because I don’t do HARDCORE rank 30 PvP does not make me a newb. Sorry Razor I just know how mesmer works (I also have an ele!) But I am not gonna propose all these hardcore nerfs to them.

No really, you people deny the concept of the OP’s post. Makes me wonder why I even bother arguing in the forums with simple-minded BS.

Understand that when something is clearly broken such as Mesmer’s mechanics as a whole, the least you could do is prove it wrong. Because chances are you couldn’t even if you wanted to.

Schwahrheit.4203:

No really, you people deny the concept of the OP’s post. Makes me wonder why I even bother arguing in the forums with simple-minded BS.

Understand that when something is clearly broken such as Mesmer’s mechanics as a whole, the least you could do is prove it wrong. Because chances are you couldn’t even if you wanted to.

Prove it wrong? Okay a mesmer shatter can’t even touch the thief backstab build.. At all… Sure we can burn a thief down but not before they can burn us down… But it is our only reliabe source of damage…. And mesmer mechanics are broken… Still several things are broken and thieves have the upper hand on us because in order to summon an illusion using a skill we need an enemy targeted… So this thread is simply a thief saying that he doesn’t like the hard counter to his class (Devs have already said the hard counter to stealth is AOE then they say that they wanna nerf AOE) so why shouldn’t we fight it? Lets nerf backstab to max for 5k damage max per hit. No more…

There are a couple of large flaws with your analysis of this “dichotomy” you’ve constructed of how damage dealing methods scenarios should play out.

Using the single target vs. AOE argument fails because of how easy it is to hybridize damage sources through weapon swap. Even the thief can easily sit on his shortbow for 90% of his gametime for providing safe highly sustained AOE damage with trick shot, and absurdly high AOE damage with short range cluster bombs along with choking gas for downed enemies and disabling shot for easy resets with damage avoidance. Saying a thief should win 1v1 encounters solely on the basis that one component of its damage dealing is single target is a mis-representation of the complex interactions between classes in team fights when viewed through the lens of 1v1 battle with no contextual value.

This is perhaps why dueling isn’t representative of game balance whatsoever. I could easily make non-standard thief builds and be one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game because of how powerful some of the stealth tools are but you wouldn’t be contributing adequately enough in a team fight. Burst specs, while not great in 1v1 fights, maximize their damage potential for priority and out of position targets.

condiments.8043:

There are a couple of large flaws with your analysis of this “dichotomy” you’ve constructed of how damage dealing methods scenarios should play out.

Using the single target vs. AOE argument fails because of how easy it is to hybridize damage sources through weapon swap. Even the thief can easily sit on his shortbow for 90% of his gametime for providing safe highly sustained AOE damage with trick shot, and absurdly high AOE damage with short range cluster bombs along with choking gas for downed enemies and disabling shot for easy resets with damage avoidance. Saying a thief should win 1v1 encounters solely on the basis that one component of its damage dealing is single target is a mis-representation of the complex interactions between classes in team fights when viewed through the lens of 1v1 battle with no contextual value.

This is perhaps why dueling isn’t representative of game balance whatsoever. I could easily make non-standard thief builds and be one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game because of how powerful some of the stealth tools are but you wouldn’t be contributing adequately enough in a team fight. Burst specs, while not great in 1v1 fights, maximize their damage potential for priority and out of position targets.

Good thing you pointed out the weapon swap ability which basically allows any class to mix both single target and AOE skills depending on the weapon sets.

But I’m afraid the OP will regard your argument as irrelevant just like mine and other players posts. Based on the OP’s replies, he’s just clearly stating that mesmer shatters and d/d eles are OP and not AOE in general. The AOE versus single target damage design principle is just a veil to hide the qq.

Gallrvaghn.4921:

condiments.8043:

There are a couple of large flaws with your analysis of this “dichotomy” you’ve constructed of how damage dealing methods scenarios should play out.

Using the single target vs. AOE argument fails because of how easy it is to hybridize damage sources through weapon swap. Even the thief can easily sit on his shortbow for 90% of his gametime for providing safe highly sustained AOE damage with trick shot, and absurdly high AOE damage with short range cluster bombs along with choking gas for downed enemies and disabling shot for easy resets with damage avoidance. Saying a thief should win 1v1 encounters solely on the basis that one component of its damage dealing is single target is a mis-representation of the complex interactions between classes in team fights when viewed through the lens of 1v1 battle with no contextual value.

This is perhaps why dueling isn’t representative of game balance whatsoever. I could easily make non-standard thief builds and be one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game because of how powerful some of the stealth tools are but you wouldn’t be contributing adequately enough in a team fight. Burst specs, while not great in 1v1 fights, maximize their damage potential for priority and out of position targets.

Good thing you pointed out the weapon swap ability which basically allows any class to mix both single target and AOE skills depending on the weapon sets.

But I’m afraid the OP will regard your argument as irrelevant just like mine and other players posts. Based on the OP’s replies, he’s just clearly stating that mesmer shatters and d/d eles are OP and not AOE in general. XD

Mufa stated an issue where only he felt he had a problem not long ago with the whole asura’s are OP because they are small. His reasoning was that he couldn’t effectively land backstab against asura (then goes on to claim he owns asuras all day) other people brought up issues with animations and so on and those were valid but his was completely about nothing but landing a backstab and good on people for finding another hard counter to BS thieves. His issue here is with AOE’s which all thief players have stated are the best counter to thieves, now here we have a thief saying that he wants AOE nerfed…. Anyone see a pattern here?

condiments.8043:

There are a couple of large flaws with your analysis of this “dichotomy” you’ve constructed of how damage dealing methods scenarios should play out.

Using the single target vs. AOE argument fails because of how easy it is to hybridize damage sources through weapon swap. Even the thief can easily sit on his shortbow for 90% of his gametime for providing safe highly sustained AOE damage with trick shot, and absurdly high AOE damage with short range cluster bombs along with choking gas for downed enemies and disabling shot for easy resets with damage avoidance. Saying a thief should win 1v1 encounters solely on the basis that one component of its damage dealing is single target is a mis-representation of the complex interactions between classes in team fights when viewed through the lens of 1v1 battle with no contextual value.

This is perhaps why dueling isn’t representative of game balance whatsoever. I could easily make non-standard thief builds and be one of the deadliest 1v1 classes in the game because of how powerful some of the stealth tools are but you wouldn’t be contributing adequately enough in a team fight. Burst specs, while not great in 1v1 fights, maximize their damage potential for priority and out of position targets.

Again more clueless nonsense. Argument does not fail because class has access to two weapons (one single target dmg and one aoe dmg)

When thief switches to bow, it is considered AOE build, when he switches to d/d it is considered single target build.

DMG on those two weapons should follow the design principle stated above. In other words, you should not have thief with “bow only” destroying thief with “d/d only” in 1v1. (i.e. bow should not be stronger 1v1 weapon than d/d).

Clueless ppl should leave these discussions to people with a clue. Problem is that clueless ppl do not recognize themselves as such I guess, so the point is mute.

I cannot believe this community, such a bunch of clueless people scared to death of ‘nerfs’, and not caring about the game one bit.

Get wrecked by eles, op.

Don’t you see how pathetic is your thread? Such a fully fleshed out argument on why classes other than thief should be nerfed. Call it balance or whatever you want, I’ll say that this game is balanced around some classes having aoe, and some lacking it (in their respective builds).

What are the tradeoffs (remember that word bro) for d/d ele’s dps? low hp, low base damage, somewhat ok burst.

Thieves get the best burst in the game (it doesn’t need a major build up like mesmer’s, I can’t believe I’m defending mesmers at this point), while pressing a single button. And you dare complain about aoe classes?

Thief d/d (because even warriors with GS do aoe damage) might lack aoe, but they get a compensation in the rest of their kit. Thief is supposed to be a quick single target damage burster, but the way I see it, you want every aoe class to do similar damage in a single target setting as if every class role was the same.

Spoilers: they’re not the same.

Razor.6392:

Get wrecked by eles, op.

He is essentially requesting a nerf to the only hard counter to his OP class… AOE… Many have classes High damage single target skills require just that “targets”. Guess what you don’t have an option against an stealthed thief? A target! So they have two options cleave in front of them hoping the thief is dumb enough to keep standing in front of them or do AOE on their general area because they know a thief will have to walk into it to land their second part of their combo the backstab… So by nerfing AOE against single targets you are making it so thief has NO risk against backstabbing someone that is AOEing around them to prevent a backstab.

so much hyperbole, haha.

they already have changes coming to AoE, kind of a redundant thread atm. they know the disparity between ST & AoE.

their AoE changes will have to be smart since AoE & Stealth are intertwined in balance in GW2 at the casual level. Single Target abilities with cast times are the advanced counters to stealth, but nobody ever talks about these.

Game design is more subtle and complex than just following rules of thumb.

The general goal for balance is this:
“How can we ensure variety and fairness in the game? How can we maximise the interesting and viable choices available?”

It’s not just about damage. There are many other factors to consider for proper balance:
- On the problem of AOE skills vs single target skills, on a single class, if the AOE skill is identical in all respects to the single target skill, except for the AOE, then of course everyone would take the AOE skill. This is a problem that needs to be fixed.

However, most skills in GW2 don’t work that way. There are many other tradeoffs to think about when comparing skills.

For example, Ele AOE skills have many drawbacks to them. They are slow/delayed, or are DOT, or ground targeted. Even Scepter Fire 2 does 5x the damage of Scepter Air 2, there are still reasons why you would use Air 2 in some situations and Fire 2 in others.

A balance problem only exists when one option is so strong it makes choosing the others pointless. An example of this would be the Ele staff autoattacks. Fire 1 does more damage and has AOE. The additional effects of Water 1 and Earth 1 are not enough to make up for the reduced damage. So ideally single target damage should be normalised across the Staff 1 attacks, and then you choose the right one based on the situation – Fire for AOE, Water to support melee allies, Earth to inflict weakness, Air when there are 2 targets, etc.

If you just blindly adjust damage so that Dragon’s Tooth has lower damage than Lightning Strike without considering the additional factors, then you might end up with a balance problem in the reverse – Noone uses DT because it never hits and even if it did it does less damage anyways.

- On the problem of Class vs. Class balance, again, the ideal is for all classes to have an equally viable niche and a variety of builds.

If single target classes are not worth taking because you might as well take an AOE class that does the same thing except 5x the damage, then that’s a problem.

If a single target build for a class is not worth using because you might as well take an AOE build that does just as well with 5x the damage, then that’s a problem.

However, in GW2 we currently don’t really see that sort of stuff happening very much for AOE. Single target classes and builds are still commonly used. AOE classes and builds are not crowding them out. D/D Eles are strong primarily because of their other strengths, not because of AOE (contrast with Staff Eles.) Single target thieves are still viable, and in fact more so than AOE thieves.

---

In summary, the correct way to balance between AOE and Single, or indeed between any 2 alternatives in any game, is to ask, “What are the tradeoffs? Why would someone take one vs. the other?”

There could be many reasons:
- More damage in group scenarios
- Can hit more reliably
- Shorter cooldowns
- Synergy with other stuff
- Additional effects
etc.

If you just compare the damage between a AOE skill vs a single target skill with the same base damage, then yes the AOE has 5x the damage potential. But if the two skills were identical except for the AOE, then damage is a mere side issue. The REAL issue is that there are no tradeoffs for using the AOE skill.
Again, many situations in GW2 do not have this problem – the AOE skill has a variety of tradeoffs that make the single target skill still desirable in many situations. Or, sometimes there is simply no choice except to go AOE (eg. Ele staff) so there’s no tradeoff involved.
If there are cases in GW2 where there is no tradeoff to going AOE over a single target skill, then by all means it should be fixed.
But the analysis needs to be far deeper than just a comparison of damage.

Mufa.1326:

Again more clueless nonsense. Argument does not fail because class has access to two weapons (one single target dmg and one aoe dmg)

When thief switches to bow, it is considered AOE build, when he switches to d/d it is considered single target build.

DMG on those two weapons should follow the design principle stated above. In other words, you should not have thief with “bow only” destroying thief with “d/d only” in 1v1. (i.e. bow should not be stronger 1v1 weapon than d/d).

Clueless ppl should leave these discussions to people with a clue. Problem is that clueless ppl do not recognize themselves as such I guess, so the point is mute.

I cannot believe this community, such a bunch of clueless people scared to death of ‘nerfs’, and not caring about the game one bit.

Uh…what? I guess you kinda prove my point anyways. Your argument kinda breaks down when you stop looking at these elements as disparate pieces(or “builds” as you put it) rather part of a comprehensive strategy that composes a good build. Any thief worth his salt will be switching weapons based on the context and cooldowns of the situation. Like a thief facing another thief will force cooldowns with his melee set, smack the other thief with surprise shot out of stealth and then finish him with cluster bomb spray. Otherwise what you propose would be a simple rock paper scissors solution devoid of anything beyond superficial depth.

If anything I think AOE in team fights causes melee damage to be way too front loaded for squisher classes like thief, and mesmer who smack people with obscene damage in little to no time. They often can’t survive in fights for which is why this occurs in their most viable specs.

diminishing return on multiple targets is a good point imo… but if they would add it, they would need to improve the dmg of some AOEs, at least some smaller which are quite hard to hit, to make them almost as strong as single target in 1v1, but weaker in team fights then they are now