Guild Wars 2

CptCuddles.8912:

The only time they won something noteworthy they had to have a balance patch and meta tailored to the only comp they could run. Plenty of other teams have adapted but they can’t. That’s just being inadequate plain and simple.

Once again i have to disagree, whats wrong with being really good at a few things?

It be like in the NBA where they still had the Don nelson rule or in the NFL where teams where still forced to have 3 people in the back field.

Right now Astral Authority (The Abjured) have Shaq O’neal but right now Anet has a rule that you cant dunk.

I dont think its a coincidence that a team that has the best necro and thief in the game are struggling when they have made mesmer and ranger the Apex, 2 classes they dont play.

Do i think Astral would win if things were changed? Who knows but just like anything thats Professional League advertised you need to call things out. If refs are making bad calls in the NBA/NFL they get called out.

Anet needs to be called out for the really bad HOT specs which has completely ruined PvP S1-S4. Literally the community has build names that were OP like spirit ranger, turret engy, hambow warrior, D/D ele and then when you talk about whats broken lately.

Its HOT spec lines

kdaddy.5431:

CptCuddles.8912:

The only time they won something noteworthy they had to have a balance patch and meta tailored to the only comp they could run. Plenty of other teams have adapted but they can’t. That’s just being inadequate plain and simple.

Once again i have to disagree, whats wrong with being really good at a few things?

It be like in the NBA where they still had the Don nelson rule or in the NFL where teams where still forced to have 3 people in the back field.

Right now Astral Authority (The Abjured) have Shaq O’neal but right now Anet has a rule that you cant dunk.

I dont think its a coincidence that a team that has the best necro and thief in the game are struggling when they have made mesmer and ranger the Apex, 2 classes they dont play.

Do i think Astral would win if things were changed? Who knows but just like anything thats Professional League advertised you need to call things out. If refs are making bad calls in the NBA/NFL they get called out.

Anet needs to be called out for the really bad HOT specs which has completely ruined PvP S1-S4. Literally the community has build names that were OP like spirit ranger, turret engy, hambow warrior, D/D ele and then when you talk about whats broken lately.

Its HOT spec lines

Your argument just does not make sense. You are trying to cherry pick a couple sports analogies and generalize them. Good teams still win even if circumstances are not on their favor. AA has not been able to perform when life was not heavily in their favor.

While I do agree HOTs has completely ruined pvp and significantly lowered the skill necessary to compete, that is another issue entirely. We are talking about the highest level of pvp where skill absolutely still makes a huge impact. Abjured admitted they learned how to rotate from TCG. Now that the meta has shifted they can’t cope. They are just not up to par you need to let go.

Wall of text incoming. I have a TLDR at the bottom.

Guys look Astral Authority isn’t losing because of their comp or the meta. They are losing because of two reasons:

1) They have no good scrimming partners. NA just doesn’t have the same level of competitiveness as EU
2) Astral is the least adaptive team in the proleague. I’m not referring to comps they run or multi-classing, I am talking about sizing up your opponent and altering your play style mid-match. TCG and R55 both have very fluid play-styles (I think TCG slightly more than R55). Astral on the other hand has a specific way they like to play and will consistently do it over and over again. I honestly think that TCG and R55 have started to figure it out and have been exploiting it.

So what is it that Astral likes to do? They like to team-fight. They use Toker to create favorable situations on the map where they can team-fight efficiently and then hold whatever they have. It’s a simple strategy but it works. They are one of the strongest team fighters in the pro league, and toker is one of the strongest roamers, so it makes sense. But R55 and TCG know this so they rotate in a way that doesn’t favor teamfighting. They will also find ways of turning what is supposed to be an unfavorable situation into a good one. Problem is that AA will just stick to their plan without shifting, even though R55 has actively adapted to it.

I missed most of the last tourney so I will use the June one as an example. During AA’s set against R55 they had two matches where they had a strong advantage, but I’m going to focus on the Foefire match. AA had won multiple teamfights and was able to maintain map control during most of the match. Toker even beat Misha in a 1v1. I don’t know why anyone isn’t talking about this but TOKER BEAT MISHA IN A 1v1! (Seriously Toker playing thief isn’t the problem. Dude plays like a madman and does a lot to create plays and rotations for his team) Because of this AA had a point advantage putting R55 in a bad spot. So because of this what does R55 do? They stop focusing on teamfighting and instead op to drip in points and set up a portal play for the lord. Astral SHOULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING but they didn’t. You can say maybe it’s inexperience against mesmer comps but I don’t think that’s an excuse because TCG has been playing mesmer for forever. AA tunnel visioned map controlled which allowed misha to set up a play. Some other stuff happened that shouldn’t have like R55 getting off some sneaky rezzes.

TLDR: The comp isn’t the issue, the meta isn’t the issue. Helseth even said on stream after the June tourney that their comp was good. I believe that AA’s game sense just isn’t as developed as TCG and R55 – partially due to the lacking NA and partially due to their own inability to adapt mid-game.

Helseth did a really good analysis after the June tourney. I’ll see if I can find the VOD.

I found the VOD. Here is Helseth’s analysis of the “Ranked 55 Dragons vs Astral Authority” set in June. You will see that AA is dominating most of the game.

https://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/74985304?t=01h55m10s

EDIT: If you have trouble with the link it’s starts at 1hour 55minutes

DOUBLE EDIT: Okay so I realized some of my analysis was incorrect (it’s been a while so meh) but overall the main idea I believe is still right. Astral’s game sense just isn’t as strong as TCG’s and R55’s. They play really well and teamfight really well, but there are little things like R55 getting rezzes off, or in the the most recent tourney Nos dying on temple when Toker was nearby to help.

You’re talking about their lack of game sense, but I wouldn’t exactly put that label on them because they understand the game quite well. It’s more like lack of experience (for once) in their given composition compared to the contenders.

AA had 2 Ele classes for the longest time until their world was flipped upside down and rightfully so. They’re practically a new team who are not as comfortable as they were before. TCG, R55 etc have been playing with their composition a whole lot longer in comparison. Heck, these teams are using their classes optimally when it’s the complete opposite for the would-be Abjured.

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Zelulose.8695:

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Not to be rude but i’m not entirely sure what that has to do with the above points :o

I truly do not understand why most of you are writing some of this.

The competition theory, this was the case for over a year where no team really even scored 300 on them consistently. The won WTS 1 with OE and got 2nd in WTS 2 with another win after that and didnt lose a set to a NA team and that was to PZ a little bit ago. They literally dominated the game for a good 2 years either being the team to beat or in the case of NA, the team no one could compete with which is still the case.

Then you guys are talking about they were better in cele, they dont adapt as well, they cant change to the new meta. Which is basically what im saying but you dont want to agree because it doesnt help your point.

CptCuddles.8912 says im picking which sports, you mean the team oriented sports? A sport like basket ball which is literally 5 vs 5 where there are offensive and defensive strategies that force match ups? Where momentum, chemistry and style of play matter?

Why is it wrong to say that the meta is crap that there strongest assets are no longer viable int he current meta? Have they adapted as well as EU? No they havent but wouldnt that mean that Anet has catered to EU for these last couple patches?

If the classes are not balanced how can you judge the NA champions as “not good”, even from a debate perspective the title alone doesnt give value to what you are saying. If they need cele to win and Anet takes it away who is being catered too? Then they nerf a class that was vital to there success.

As comment above “toker beat misha in a 1 vs 1” but yet he cant help the team in any way. Is that the teams who play fault or the company who puts out bad metas which we both agree is bad. Eu has always been the better PvP server but AA has been the team to keep NA relevant.

They are still good just not dominant.

Saiyan.1704:

Zelulose.8695:

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Not to be rude but i’m not entirely sure what that has to do with the above points :o

Sorry I am explaining why teams have trouble when the meta changes. Builds play a bigger factor than skill so if they change the builds often it ruins a pro-teams comp in a way they can’t recover quickly because mechanical skill is less important than builds and a good rotation/team synergy right now. A 1 vs 1 tournament with pro league and non pro league where all prologue players used the same build would show that there are many players out there with better mechanical skill than them. This again emphasizing that yes abjured is heavily affected by the meta because builds are carrying right now. The same would be true if core builds from EU were changed.

Is this thread for real? The majority of you on this forum copy/pasted builds made by Abjured for the last 3 years, since they were Team Paradigm….but then again I’m dealing with the same kind of people who ask to buff warrior sustain at this point…like…‘facepalm’

Zelulose.8695:

Saiyan.1704:

Zelulose.8695:

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Not to be rude but i’m not entirely sure what that has to do with the above points :o

Sorry I am explaining why teams have trouble when the meta changes. Builds play a bigger factor than skill so if they change the builds often it ruins a pro-teams comp in a way they can’t recover quickly because mechanical skill is less important than builds and a good rotation/team synergy right now. A 1 vs 1 tournament with pro league and non pro league where all prologue players used the same build would show that there are many players out there with better mechanical skill than them. This again emphasizing that yes abjured is heavily affected by the meta because builds are carrying right now. The same would be true if core builds from EU were changed.

If this is true why do none of these mechanically superior players ever win the 1v1 tournaments when they are held? Why is it always some tourney player that wins instead?

Saiyan.1704:

You’re talking about their lack of game sense, but I wouldn’t exactly put that label on them because they understand the game quite well. It’s more like lack of experience (for once) in their given composition compared to the contenders.

AA had 2 Ele classes for the longest time until their world was flipped upside down and rightfully so. They’re practically a new team who are not as comfortable as they were before. TCG, R55 etc have been playing with their composition a whole lot longer in comparison. Heck, these teams are using their classes optimally when it’s the complete opposite for the would-be Abjured.

Fair enough. I think the experience thing is valid.

When I spoke about “game sense” I wasn’t referring to Guild Wars mechanics. (i.e. Teamfighting, creating comps) I was referring to their instincts and decision-making when fighting another team. Understand I’m not saying that they have bad instincts or decision making. They are world class Guild Wars players so obviously they are strong in that department. I just think that overall EU has a much stronger mental game and because of that Astral’s playstyle comes off as more mechanical and predictable. This is not generally speaking this is in comparison to the top EU teams. What Astral does works against every NA team that’s why they have never had to adapt like EU has.

kdaddy.5431:

Why is it wrong to say that the meta is crap that there strongest assets are no longer viable int he current meta? Have they adapted as well as EU? No they havent but wouldnt that mean that Anet has catered to EU for these last couple patches?

Nothing wrong with that. Although I believe that this is probably the most balance the game has been since HoT hit. Also I know you don’t mean it literally but I don’t think Anet is catering to anyone. I mean they are all playing the same game. I also don’t think that Astral’s comp is as bad as people are making it out to be. They’ve shown that they can win multiple team-fights and maintain map control with what they are running.

kdaddy.5431:

As comment above “toker beat misha in a 1 vs 1” but yet he cant help the team in any way. Is that the teams who play fault or the company who puts out bad metas which we both agree is bad. Eu has always been the better PvP server but AA has been the team to keep NA relevant.

I included that as evidence that thief is still in a decent spot and can be relevant. Mesmer is considered the best roamer, but Toker still beat Misha (currently considered #2 mesmer?). Did you even watch the VOD that I linked? Toker was doing plenty to help his team and create rotations. So no I disagree that thief can’t help their team in any way.

kdaddy.5431:

They are still good just not dominant.

This. Anyone who tries to say they suck is fooling themselves. Or perhaps trying to make themselves feel better. Idk

Shadow.1345:

Zelulose.8695:

Saiyan.1704:

Zelulose.8695:

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Not to be rude but i’m not entirely sure what that has to do with the above points :o

Sorry I am explaining why teams have trouble when the meta changes. Builds play a bigger factor than skill so if they change the builds often it ruins a pro-teams comp in a way they can’t recover quickly because mechanical skill is less important than builds and a good rotation/team synergy right now. A 1 vs 1 tournament with pro league and non pro league where all prologue players used the same build would show that there are many players out there with better mechanical skill than them. This again emphasizing that yes abjured is heavily affected by the meta because builds are carrying right now. The same would be true if core builds from EU were changed.

If this is true why do none of these mechanically superior players ever win the 1v1 tournaments when they are held? Why is it always some tourney player that wins instead?

I am very confused at this statement. I will attempt to translate. Basically, you argue that none of the mechanically good are winning and that only the pro-league players. I are.
1) This is not true for the largest portion of the 1 vs 1 tournaments which are unfunded by the pvp team by far.
2) if a proleague player happened to win a 1 vs 1 tourney who was participating. It is very keen of a proleague player to jump on a 1 vs 1 tournament which many of the better players didn’t join as it is potentially an easy win.
3) It is ridiculous to say the players who lost to the proleague player had a high degree of mechanical skill. Maybe above average potentially but not to most. In fact, if they lost the tournament, they probably did not have a high degree of mechanical skill compared to the top contenders. There are so many tournaments that it is hard to just use one easy prey example.

(I am not dragging the thief most pro-league thief mains into this as they are good)

Supreme.3164:

Is this thread for real? The majority of you on this forum copy/pasted builds made by Abjured for the last 3 years, since they were Team Paradigm….but then again I’m dealing with the same kind of people who ask to buff warrior sustain at this point…like…‘facepalm’

You also said that full shouts with dagger was noob build, you also complain heavily about rousing resilience a trait few people actually take.

When many of us come up with the same meta builds as they do and understand the meta as they do. Its odd hearing about how you pick a few random threads to talk about warrior buff when no one is really asking for it.

At joshmossas.6542

I agree with most of what you are saying and no i dont think Anet is intentionally ruining classes but they are.

Also your comment with toker just bothers me. We all know that he is a good player and he even won some 1 vs 1 vs revs. Against muffin in season 1 and levin in that very tournament you are talking about.

I just want to say that in the current meta there is no use for a thief period. AA got a win because they won a crazy 4 vs 5. How often will that happen? They started chasing toker in that map.

Like a post earlier, how do you deal with a thief? “don’t pay to much attention to thief” and even afterwards in interviews with EU players they all said basically win the 2 other points and you win.

Thief like warrior contribute in no way to team fights, they are forced into 1 vs 1 potential match ups that neither are the Apex at.

Also they will never get 1 vs 1 in organized 5 vs 5 because everyone is so glassy that everyone almost runs in pairs.

I agree with you on there ability to change there style but i find it Ridiculous that people want say things like chaith got handled, the other 4 were carried by a amulet (that everyone was using) when this is simply not a good style of game play.

There are not other viable style options and yes i agree that this is the best meta since HOT but lets not pretend that these Pro Leagues have been the best version of the game to judge the elite players.

Zelulose.8695:

Shadow.1345:

Zelulose.8695:

Saiyan.1704:

Zelulose.8695:

Na man the game right now promotes button smashing. 1 vs 1 is the only way to test mechanical skill. 5 vs 5 is purely rotations and even if the players have above average skill I have seen people dueling who are way better. These good players simply don’t tourney because they have no team play or rotation skill. Pro league is all about team practice not the mechanical skill of the individual. LoL and games like it are the only games where I have seen both mechanical skill and team skill as requirements to rise to the top. When many builds can be forced with skillful gameplay we will see more mechanical skills. The meta is too narrow for that right now.

Not to be rude but i’m not entirely sure what that has to do with the above points :o

Sorry I am explaining why teams have trouble when the meta changes. Builds play a bigger factor than skill so if they change the builds often it ruins a pro-teams comp in a way they can’t recover quickly because mechanical skill is less important than builds and a good rotation/team synergy right now. A 1 vs 1 tournament with pro league and non pro league where all prologue players used the same build would show that there are many players out there with better mechanical skill than them. This again emphasizing that yes abjured is heavily affected by the meta because builds are carrying right now. The same would be true if core builds from EU were changed.

If this is true why do none of these mechanically superior players ever win the 1v1 tournaments when they are held? Why is it always some tourney player that wins instead?

I am very confused at this statement. I will attempt to translate. Basically, you argue that none of the mechanically good are winning and that only the pro-league players. I are.
1) This is not true for the largest portion of the 1 vs 1 tournaments which are unfunded by the pvp team by far.
2) if a proleague player happened to win a 1 vs 1 tourney who was participating. It is very keen of a proleague player to jump on a 1 vs 1 tournament which many of the better players didn’t join as it is potentially an easy win.
3) It is ridiculous to say the players who lost to the proleague player had a high degree of mechanical skill. Maybe above average potentially but not to most. In fact, if they lost the tournament, they probably did not have a high degree of mechanical skill compared to the top contenders. There are so many tournaments that it is hard to just use one easy prey example.

(I am not dragging the thief most pro-league thief mains into this as they are good)

Of all the 1v1 tournaments announced publicly on the forums I have never seen one won by some guy who just spends all day 1v1ing in custom 1v1 arenas. They are always won by people who compete in 5v5 tournaments. Why do none of these good players with no team skills or rotations, that you talk about, ever win those 1v1 tournaments?

So… Isn’t Cele an abreviation for “celestial” I assume you mean “cleric”… celestial amulet was nerfed years ago.

R O C.6574:

So… Isn’t Cele an abreviation for “celestial” I assume you mean “cleric”… celestial amulet was nerfed years ago.

Nope, what he means is the Abjured didn’t wins much tourney since the Removal of Celestial amulet.

Phantaram was the power house of this comp tho.