Actual metrics for premades and soloers?
Anet has at one point said being in a pre made didn’t significantly increase your chance of winning queues. The playerbase continued to complain about pre mades anyway.
Anet recognizes that there is a difference between a problem caused by facts and a problem caused by player perception and that simply showing the playerbase the stats on the frequency of wins for pre mades isn’t enough to get them to change their minds about pre mades. So they made a poll. Smart move really. They do what the player base wants and when it becomes obvious that there is no tangible benefit, anet remains blameless.
Anet has at one point said being in a pre made didn’t significantly increase your chance of winning queues. The playerbase continued to complain about pre mades anyway.
Anet recognizes that there is a difference between a problem caused by facts and a problem caused by player perception and that simply showing the playerbase the stats on the frequency of wins for pre mades isn’t enough to get them to change their minds about pre mades. So they made a poll. Smart move really. They do what the player base wants and when it becomes obvious that there is no tangible benefit, anet remains blameless.
This.
I agree with, still quite annoying that this is the route they have to take. Can’t wait for the unranked matchmaking complaints.
The blame will just be re-distributed to other usual suspects and a year or two down the line everybody will forget about the poll and it’s results, and the same topic will creep up back into the rotation of the things that are absolutely the worst according to your average forum wine user.
I mean, I get it, I’m sick of reading and listening the same crap as well, but I’m afraid this doesn’t do any good long term.
Unranked is already trash so having premades there is not really gonna matter.
Or is this just one of those PR stunts like they did with season 2, where they admitted 5 man teams do not win significantly more often…
Which was a PR stunt in itself, because they gave no meaningful stats, saying 5 mans did not win significantly more against non-5 mans does not mean much, because lower down in MMR you may get a lot of 5 mans losing, because they are not so good PvE players who queued as a 5 man that then get put up against better players who queued solo/duo, but conversely at a high MMR you may get a really good 5 man that wins 80% of their matches because is more likely to be on TS, using full cheese comp, trying to find better solo/dup players than this pre-made becomes more difficult, and even then the difference between them makes less of difference when everyone is at least somewhat competent, etc.
So a 50% figure is basically meaningless without giving additional stats, which of course they didn’t, because it was PR spin.
saying 5 mans did not win significantly more against non-5 mans does not mean much, because lower down in MMR you may get a lot of 5 mans losing, because they are not so good PvE players who queued as a 5 man that then get put up against better players who queued solo/duo, but conversely at a high MMR you may get a really good 5 man that wins 80% of their matches
That’s not exclusive to premades though. Low MMR solo’ers lose a lot, and higher MMR solo’ers win a lot. (which is how they became high MMR in the first place)
Unranked has the best handling of premades because premades get a MMR bump, and in unranked MMR is allowed to work freely without pip range restrictions.
YouTube
lower down in MMR you may get a lot of 5 mans losing, because they are not so good PvE players who queued as a 5 man that then get put up against better players who queued solo/duo, but conversely at a high MMR you may get a really good 5 man that wins 80% of their matches because is more likely to be on TS, using full cheese comp, trying to find better solo/dup players than this pre-made becomes more difficult, and even then the difference between them makes less of difference when everyone is at least somewhat competent, etc.
I thought higher MMR people were faced with hour long queue times. I figured no one would be playing as a premade then cause their queue times will be days long.
lower down in MMR you may get a lot of 5 mans losing, because they are not so good PvE players who queued as a 5 man that then get put up against better players who queued solo/duo, but conversely at a high MMR you may get a really good 5 man that wins 80% of their matches because is more likely to be on TS, using full cheese comp, trying to find better solo/dup players than this pre-made becomes more difficult, and even then the difference between them makes less of difference when everyone is at least somewhat competent, etc.
I thought higher MMR people were faced with hour long queue times. I figured no one would be playing as a premade then cause their queue times will be days long.
Nobody does in legendary anyway. I played in alts because the solo queue times were longer than 20min.
if u think that a premade of 5 against 5 solo is fair match, then u dont know what the word fair/equal means. sure some pve guild plays 5 man premade and get stomp by 5 solo pvper thats a MM problem. but a equally skilled premade vs solo will always have premade win.
Black Gate
Ruthless Legend
if u think that a premade of 5 against 5 solo is fair match, then u dont know what the word fair/equal means. sure some pve guild plays 5 man premade and get stomp by 5 solo pvper thats a MM problem. but a equally skilled premade vs solo will always have premade win.
You misunderstand what equally skilled means.
if u think that a premade of 5 against 5 solo is fair match, then u dont know what the word fair/equal means. sure some pve guild plays 5 man premade and get stomp by 5 solo pvper thats a MM problem. but a equally skilled premade vs solo will always have premade win.
You misunderstand what equally skilled means.
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
YouTube
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
he said EQUAL level. So get 5 solo queues and a 5 man premade where all 10 players have approx the same MMR, I would bet my last dollar that the premade in voice comms will win more games than the solo team.
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
he said EQUAL level. So get 5 solo queues and a 5 man premade where all 10 players have approx the same MMR, I would bet my last dollar that the premade in voice comms will win more games than the solo team.
Correct. Irl it’s entirely possible that the Pug will win simply because MMR will compensate by picking Pug members of slightly higher skill level than the premade’s members, and that can make the difference. But in the way the example is worded, premade and Pug members being of equal skill level, voicechat-coordinated premade wins 60% of the time, every time.
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
he said EQUAL level. So get 5 solo queues and a 5 man premade where all 10 players have approx the same MMR, I would bet my last dollar that the premade in voice comms will win more games than the solo team.
Correct. Irl it’s entirely possible that the Pug will win simply because MMR will compensate by picking Pug members of slightly higher skill level than the premade’s members, and that can make the difference. But in the way the example is worded, premade and Pug members being of equal skill level, voicechat-coordinated premade wins 60% of the time, every time.
Agreed, ANET said that premades get penalized with an inflated MMR so the solo queuers tend to have a higher MMR than the true avg MMR of the premade. EXCEPT for one very very important fact. The Premade will most likely be playing the optimal class comp and each player most likely playing their best class. The SOLO q team is a random collection of classes and quite often you have 1 or more players playing an ALT class for their class achievements (another stupid thing ANET did) . Since we don’t have class specific MMR, the solo q team is actually a lot worse than the MM system thinks it is.
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
he said EQUAL level. So get 5 solo queues and a 5 man premade where all 10 players have approx the same MMR, I would bet my last dollar that the premade in voice comms will win more games than the solo team.
Correct. Irl it’s entirely possible that the Pug will win simply because MMR will compensate by picking Pug members of slightly higher skill level than the premade’s members, and that can make the difference. But in the way the example is worded, premade and Pug members being of equal skill level, voicechat-coordinated premade wins 60% of the time, every time.
Agreed, ANET said that premades get penalized with an inflated MMR so the solo queuers tend to have a higher MMR than the true avg MMR of the premade. EXCEPT for one very very important fact. The Premade will most likely be playing the optimal class comp and each player most likely playing their best class. The SOLO q team is a random collection of classes and quite often you have 1 or more players playing an ALT class for their class achievements (another stupid thing ANET did) . Since we don’t have class specific MMR, the solo q team is actually a lot worse than the MM system thinks it is.
How many premades are actually tryharding that much with their composition? I know that there are some who would but in my experience such groups are rare compared to your average kittens-and-giggles premade.
I’m tired of perfectly good game systems getting changed just because a handful of people just had to go full tryhard.
YouTube
Nah lol he’s right. The premade’s extra bit of coordination from voicechat will result in a win if the teams are otherwise equally skilled. Teams not on voicechat just don’t focus as well in fights and don’t always rotate logically due to the fact that they’re not constantly communicating.
That only goes so far though. Calling next-level rotations in voicechat only goes so far if your offnode guy can’t win (or at least hold) his 1v1s. Winning still requires a base level skill advantage regardless of communications.
The biggest advantage of premades isn’t communication, it’s the ability to choose comp. (pugs are really bad at negotiating comps)
he said EQUAL level. So get 5 solo queues and a 5 man premade where all 10 players have approx the same MMR, I would bet my last dollar that the premade in voice comms will win more games than the solo team.
Correct. Irl it’s entirely possible that the Pug will win simply because MMR will compensate by picking Pug members of slightly higher skill level than the premade’s members, and that can make the difference. But in the way the example is worded, premade and Pug members being of equal skill level, voicechat-coordinated premade wins 60% of the time, every time.
Agreed, ANET said that premades get penalized with an inflated MMR so the solo queuers tend to have a higher MMR than the true avg MMR of the premade. EXCEPT for one very very important fact. The Premade will most likely be playing the optimal class comp and each player most likely playing their best class. The SOLO q team is a random collection of classes and quite often you have 1 or more players playing an ALT class for their class achievements (another stupid thing ANET did) . Since we don’t have class specific MMR, the solo q team is actually a lot worse than the MM system thinks it is.
How many premades are actually tryharding that much with their composition? I know that there are some who would but in my experience such groups are rare compared to your average kittens-and-giggles premade.
I’m tired of perfectly good game systems getting changed just because a handful of people just had to go full tryhard.
When it came to ranked league climbing and pip win streaks I think we will be surprised at how many tryhard teams were put together to win streak their way up.
I personally know of a few in my guild that climbed 2 divisions in a day with like 10+ win streaks at a time ROFLSTOMPING pug teams.
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "
We know Anet keeps metrics and stats somewhere right?
Do we actual have stats that show premade teams of 3 players or more are winning a disproportionate amount of games as compared to pure solo queue players?
Or is this just one of those PR stunts like they did with season 2, where they admitted 5 man teams do not win significantly more often, but changed it anyways just because.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/pvp-league-season-two-changes/
I’d like to see some numbers before voting really.
A-net will never provide this kind of data because at the end of the day they don’t care about decisions being made on actual facts at this point. This game is hemorraging support for pvp and they have put there finger in the air and decided that based on board whining and dubious polling that the player base wants solo and duo queue only and they are going to give it to them whether the data says they should or not or whether it makes sense or not. The peasants are at the gate with pitchforks and they are capitulating. Developers acting like adults would say you are facing groups of three or more without that kind of help on your side 2-3% of the time and because of that the problem is in your head and there is no need to change the system from how it is now. Now if the data showed it was a problem I would all be for these changes but based on past comments from A-net and my personal experiences I feel it’s very rare indeed I get 3+ grouped on the other team versus all solos and duos on my team.
(edited by Rigante.2470)
A-Net stating that premades don’t have a significantly higher chance of winning more matches over solo is a misleading statement.
The algorithm finds premades to put against premades and tries to find solos to put against solos so with that intact, saying “5 man teams don’t win significantly more often” is truth.
Another hard truth, on the other hand, is that 5 man premades using voice chat have a large advantage over a team of solos. So when the algorithm does place 5 man premade against a team of solos, it isn’t fair unless the solos are ALL experienced veteran players and the premade is comprised of new to intermediate players. I know that when I run 5 man premade in ques, we usually win a good 8/10 matches and most of the ques we get are against duo/duo/solo, trio/duo or just plain solos. It’s rare to even run in to another 5 man premade nowadays.
Again, that statement about 5 man premades not winning more often than solos is very misleading “albeit not on purpose” but consider this.
A-Net stating that premades don’t have a significantly higher chance of winning more matches over solo is a misleading statement.
The algorithm finds premades to put against premades and tries to find solos to put against solos so with that intact, saying “5 man teams don’t win significantly more often” is truth.
Another hard truth, on the other hand, is that 5 man premades using voice chat have a large advantage over a team of solos. So when the algorithm does place 5 man premade against a team of solos, it isn’t fair unless the solos are ALL experienced veteran players and the premade is comprised of new to intermediate players. I know that when I run 5 man premade in ques, we usually win a good 8/10 matches and most of the ques we get are against duo/duo/solo, trio/duo or just plain solos. It’s rare to even run in to another 5 man premade nowadays.
See, that’s still all conjecture based off of vague statements by Anet and anecdotal evidence.
I’d like to see something like “According to our internal metrics, players playing in groups at 3 or more at the average MMR of XXX tend to win/lose at YY%. Players at groups of 3 or more playing at the randomhigh MMR win 75% of the time”
I can’t vote based off of “I feel premades are unfair because I lost some games against premades/I won a lot as a premade. And then I’ll throw out a random % to make me sound legit.”. And then not even keep track of the last 100-200 games played, track if they were solo, track if the other team was solo, compared the results with control of them playing as all solo. Record at what time they played games at, if player population was high or low, etc.