Guild Wars 2

Because this seems to be super popular lately, here’s a ‘Karla on mesmers in general’ PoW:
Delete this abomination of a class already together with the ranger and re-design both bottom-up without all the cheese that is clones, pets, low CD o-kitten skills and whatnot.
Here, class fixed. You’re welcome.
And since ppl are using top 20 ladderbrds in a 100-man pvp player base as argumentz, I’ll flash my max pvp title and 7 years of pvping on GW1 to show how c00l I am and that people should listen to me (you should, really).

On a more serious note, I sincerely wonder who thought turning control-based classes into AI-dependant spammers was a smart idea…well ok, they’re gud for casulz, so i guess it adds up. Although mesmer was my first class, I’d love to see it die a horrible death, if it were to rise again in (at least some part of) its old glory.

Ok. Maybe now it is time to listen to people who don’t play mesmer..you know..cause you’re all talking about balance so much..let’s see what non mesmer players think of mesmer.

There is a point in engaging mesmer shatter builds where it can definitely be defined as reaching for brass rings. If we take a some what common shatter build of staff/sword-pistol;

1 x gap closer cripple/teleport
1x outright immunity of all damage
1x parual immunity where retaliation can still affect you
1x daze of varvarying lengh
1x phantasm that if given line of sight will follow you for up to half a map
1x gap creator
multi sources of chaos armor slotted or combo field
1 AoE interrupting field
1x stealth
1x possible morph
2x stun breaks
potentially 1x area specific teleport
1 x slotted stun
multi sources of mediocre conditions that can still be of benefit with cripple being one of them.
The difference between heavy armor and light is 40 toughness. Armor tier plays no large part, only skill tree/rune toughness stacking gives benefit.

If the common utilities being used are decoy/mirror images/portal

This leaves the mesmer weak to conditions. In fairness with so much on offer there should be an Achilles soft spot to this. As an occassional thieve player one rotation from a averaged skill shatter mesmer can effectively deal out 7ishK dmg..on a skill mesmer who can predict where stealthed players likely are it will deal significantly more if the target is running squishy very burst. This is not to mention that phantasms/clones when shattered generally will move to approximately where stealthed players much the same as rangers pets do. They may not be spot on, but they do head in the right direction and phantasms if stalled for an attack will immediately open fire upon the mesmer/thief becoming revealed again.

It has to be said, mesmers do bring a lot with them. To state that you can now only 3 clones active max and not keep rewriting them is profession destroying..well, ..let’s be honest, from this list..how more did you need to remain viable?

I, myself like many players are feeling very dubious about these up coming changes. I think the only actual balance to them is that most professions are having their staple utilities/rotation taken away from them. Warrior hambow/sig are being reduced every patch. Engi turrets, necro burning and minions and mesmer clones have all been hit. They have said that they perhaps hit ele’s too hard and that thieve’s are in line for some quality of life stuff. I can appreciate that mesmers are upset by these changes, but if they changes did not occur when other common played builds/professions are being reduced it was only ever pushing mesmer back up the ranks to it’s old position of A class by virtue that all the S class builds had been demoted to A or B tier now. It appears clear this patch is about reducing vigor and dmg across the board in spvp and PvE. These changes have effectively done that, even though many of us don’t feel the right traits have been specifically addressed. This is nothing more than when warrior’s all complained mace/hammer hard hitters were “highly telegraphed” so therefore well balanced. Mesmer shatters are not well telegraphed so something was going to give. Like I said, at times there is windows with mesmers where you are no longer actually engaged with them, you’re just reaching for the brass rings to get to them to resume engaging. That is in essence the cheese factor that is being refereed to. How many clones and phantasms/teleports/dazes/stun breaks/gaps closers and creators/cripples/small confusions/immunites/stealth/combo fields/chao’s armors etc etc that dmg you does a player have to go through to finally get to the mesmer?

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

It has to be said, mesmers do bring a lot with them. To state that you can now only 3 clones active max and not keep rewriting them is profession destroying..well, ..let’s be honest, from this list..how more did you need to remain viable?

I think most are getting confused over, what the change actually would mean.

You can probably play hours after hours without noticing the change, but you could also just have new problematic situations over and over again.
The problem is, that there is absolutely no reason for this change, other than just introduce new problems with the AI. The AI cannot jump. will attack boxes or spas out due to the opponent going into stealth.

The reason of the devs at the ready-up show was to solve the problem with the on-death traits, and to have the option, that your current clones stay active, without having to wary about having them overwritten after a dodge. I believe the second one should be quality of life change, which goes absolutely in the wrong direction, while the first one should be addressed in other ways. The change will not affect the clone spamming. AI clustering or f.e the damage output at all.

You can argue a lot what is strong about the mesmer and compare it to other changes, but then you clearly have no clue what’s going on.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

I, myself like many players are feeling very dubious about these up coming changes. I think the only actual balance to them is that most professions are having their staple utilities/rotation taken away from them. Warrior hambow/sig are being reduced every patch. Engi turrets, necro burning and minions and mesmer clones have all been hit. They have said that they perhaps hit ele’s too hard and that thieve’s are in line for some quality of life stuff. I can appreciate that mesmers are upset by these changes, but if they changes did not occur when other common played builds/professions are being reduced it was only ever pushing mesmer back up the ranks to it’s old position of A class by virtue that all the S class builds had been demoted to A or B tier now. It appears clear this patch is about reducing vigor and dmg across the board in spvp and PvE. These changes have effectively done that, even though many of us don’t feel the right traits have been specifically addressed. This is nothing more than when warrior’s all complained mace/hammer hard hitters were “highly telegraphed” so therefore well balanced. Mesmer shatters are not well telegraphed so something was going to give. Like I said, at times there is windows with mesmers where you are no longer actually engaged with them, you’re just reaching for the brass rings to get to them to resume engaging. That is in essence the cheese factor that is being refereed to. How many clones and phantasms/teleports/dazes/stun breaks/gaps closers and creators/cripples/small confusions/immunites/stealth/combo fields/chao’s armors etc etc that dmg you does a player have to go through to finally get to the mesmer?

Alright you can argue a lot when you compare what mesmers bring in comparison with other classes, and how they perform and so on. But truly, this is apples and oranges. What you’re trying to bring it up is Apples. We are talking about Oranges.

And going back to the Apples you mentioned, even though mesmers can bring a lot, it does not mean they’re in a good state. Just look at Elementalists and how many different skills/AoE options they got in their hands, and they’re still terrible. Again, see where mesmers stand at the current meta, is probably just above Eles… and below everything else.

Keep in mind that a in tournaments you can’t just look at skills/builds individually… you’ve to look for their roles and in what kind of situations they’ll be most of the times, and what class/builds they’ll be fighting most of the times…

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

It has to be said, mesmers do bring a lot with them. To state that you can now only 3 clones active max and not keep rewriting them is profession destroying..well, ..let’s be honest, from this list..how more did you need to remain viable?

Since Mesmer is close to the bottom of the food chain. (Not as low as ele as we are semi viable) The question that should be asked instead is:

Do you want them to remain viable?
I would like the answer to that to be: Yes.

Yes, a Mesmer can do damage. We also have to spec full glass to do so as a shatter Mesmer.

The Mesmer is vulnerable to both physical damage and condition damage.
Compared to a thief, a Mesmer is a slow roamer. With babysitting, they do bring support in terms of portal, stomp preventing abilities and their dps. Still, not many teams run them.

A thief will rip a Mesmer apart unless the thief mess up.
Warriors and rangers are also problematic. A guardian will not kill a Mesmer, but it is unlikely the Mesmer can kill him either.
That is quite many of the current meta classes, which the shatter Mesmer has issues with.

It is not that the Mesmer is in a horrible spot, it is just that there is little need to bring a Mesmer to a team fight.

If you are struggling to understand why the suggested change to DE was problematic, I would suggest for you to either read up a bit on the Mesmer section of the forum, or go watch Helseth’s latest stream on twitch, where he explains what he feared about the change and try to show it as well.(01:29:00)

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

I, myself like many players are feeling very dubious about these up coming changes. I think the only actual balance to them is that most professions are having their staple utilities/rotation taken away from them. Warrior hambow/sig are being reduced every patch. Engi turrets, necro burning and minions and mesmer clones have all been hit. They have said that they perhaps hit ele’s too hard and that thieve’s are in line for some quality of life stuff. I can appreciate that mesmers are upset by these changes, but if they changes did not occur when other common played builds/professions are being reduced it was only ever pushing mesmer back up the ranks to it’s old position of A class by virtue that all the S class builds had been demoted to A or B tier now. It appears clear this patch is about reducing vigor and dmg across the board in spvp and PvE. These changes have effectively done that, even though many of us don’t feel the right traits have been specifically addressed. This is nothing more than when warrior’s all complained mace/hammer hard hitters were “highly telegraphed” so therefore well balanced. Mesmer shatters are not well telegraphed so something was going to give. Like I said, at times there is windows with mesmers where you are no longer actually engaged with them, you’re just reaching for the brass rings to get to them to resume engaging. That is in essence the cheese factor that is being refereed to. How many clones and phantasms/teleports/dazes/stun breaks/gaps closers and creators/cripples/small confusions/immunites/stealth/combo fields/chao’s armors etc etc that dmg you does a player have to go through to finally get to the mesmer?

Thank you, someone understands. I don’t want class being nerfed to the ground but i am personally sick and tired of going through armies of pets and pets and pets trying to reach player and do some dmg to them. There is so much going on screen as well, it is slowly becomes unbearable.

@Reesha: other classes have same issue if they go glass. What is your point?

Cynz.9437:

Thank you, someone understands. I don’t want class being nerfed to the ground but i am personally sick and tired of going through armies of pets and pets and pets trying to reach player and do some dmg to them. There is so much going on screen as well, it is slowly becomes unbearable.

Thank you for your productive input! Unfortunately this has absolutely nothing to do with the planned changes at all. Please reread the planned changes and you’ll hopefully understand what’s going on here.

Teutos.8620:

Cynz.9437:

Thank you, someone understands. I don’t want class being nerfed to the ground but i am personally sick and tired of going through armies of pets and pets and pets trying to reach player and do some dmg to them. There is so much going on screen as well, it is slowly becomes unbearable.

Thank you for your productive input! Unfortunately this has absolutely nothing to do with the planned changes at all. Please reread the planned changes and you’ll hopefully understand what’s going on here.

I watched the stream. There WILL be less pets compared to current state. You can flower and color it all you want, right now most mesmers i see are just spamming dodges non stop. Please re-read the planned changes, thank you.

Cynz.9437:

@Reesha: other classes have same issue if they go glass. What is your point?

Point is fairly simple. Mesmers, like many other professions, do not have several specs to choose from in organized team play. Currently shatter is the only semi viable spec available.

I have three accounts lol.3859:

soooo

Mesmer is getting their precious vigor nerfed qq

seems in line with all the other vigor nerfs and its not even that big.

More kit refinement style nerfs and more passives inc this patch.

Not that big? Most shatter mesmer builds have no access to any defensive boons at all.
Vigor is the only one. Add to that, clone generation outside of DE is pretty atrocious.