Guild Wars 2

Say Aye.
Preferably with a reason.

Eye: It allows bunkers to actually kill people. It counters practically the entire Ranger class.

Retaliation has always been a stupid mechanic imo. Combine it with protection and you have yourself a pretty nice damage advantage with just 2 boons.

It would be cool if it wasn’t used for bunker builds primarily.

To make it fair either all auras and effects need to proc on each hit instead of once per second on hit OR retaliation and confusion should only proc in the same manner other effects do (i.e. at most once per second on hit). In the latter case confuson damage needs to be revised though, as it might be too low.

It makes the Flamethrower kit of the engineer even more useless. Since it’s the coolest weapon in the whole game, it shouldn’t be.

retalliation is neccesary for the game ,against skill spamers ,its maybe to powerfull sometimes ,and need some corrections ,but it,s good for game

Seeing as how Retaliation can proc 10 times against one use of a skill like the Flamethrower autoattack or Pistol Whip, all that while each individual hit from those skills does pitiful damage, and against some other class that dumps all his weapon cooldowns at once, it would only proc 5 times, I think something is broken.

Retaliation doesn’t punish skill spammers, it punishes multi-hit skills which is a weird thing to do.

stof.9341:

Seeing as how Retaliation can proc 10 times against one use of a skill like the Flamethrower autoattack or Pistol Whip, all that while each individual hit from those skills does pitiful damage, and against some other class that dumps all his weapon cooldowns at once, it would only proc 5 times, I think something is broken.

Retaliation doesn’t punish skill spammers, it punishes multi-hit skills which is a weird thing to do.

Also if I read this right, it punishes based on power of enemy player, not damage. Thats why multihit will lose that dmg ratio vs retaliation.

but those are aoe skills ,it want kill 1v1 but it will kill u if u are not carefull in aoeing many people , if there is no retalliation there is no threat to aoeing …..
p.s. right multi-hit skills ,but for me standing and throwing granades from above is still spaming skills :p i know that they are multihit
btw ,i play engi ,highest dmg in my history i got from retalliation was 20 k XD

Needs to be reworked, i can do over 15k dmg in a 1v1 with a phantasm mesmer in about 1 minute.

Internal confusion cd would probably do it. Can only proc once every 3 seconds same fof retal. Otherwise it punishes multi-hit skills or fast attacks with low dmg so as sb ranger.

Retal already got nerfed and you still want it to get worse?

hey i invented this new super epic build http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-s70B00-NKkO0a4ZLkQ0;9;5TJ-J;106316;251-b;016;19cV19cV13Bs . Just stun and shoot’em up but i keep dying all the time. I think not only retaliation but also Mesmers, Eles, other Warriors, Rangers, Necros, Engis, Thieves and Guards need some nerf.

My problem with retaliation, is that I can’t see it! When I take damage from retaliation, I don’t know where that damage is coming from, because of the lack of a visual clue. When the opponent has retaliation, I don’t know if they have it, unless I interrupt myself from the battle and watch the very tiny set of boon icons one by one until I spot retaliation.

In comparison, confusion is much easier to spot, both because the way the damage is shown, and because the condition icon itself is also easy to spot.

Better visual clues would help tremendously a lot of players, and make retaliation less mindless. Especially in crowded areas.

As a side note,
Maybe it’s time to nerf Guardian’s beloved Stand Your Ground’s cooldown. :P I don’t seriously understand why they have an party-wide retaliation + stability skill for 30s, while other professions have a self-targetted (protection/ lifeforce) + stability skill for 90s. That shout would be stronger than both armors even if they all shared the same cooldown, but it somehow costs 3 times less. I can understand devs wanting some professions to be naturally stronger at some things than others, but even so, I wouldn’t give it less than 70s cooldown, which would still be a significant advantage over “similar” skills.

Indeed, retaliation could use a visual distinction on the way the damage you receive is shown, same as confusion has.

There is also a purple hue around your head when afflicted by confusion, it’s quite easy to spot.
Retalliation has a visual cue as well, the opponent will have a translucent shield around the left wrist, similar to protection. I agree that the damage numbers from retalliation could use some distinction like confusion has as well though. Maybe a jagged outline around the damage numbers?

Oh also Aye: It would be better if retalliation reflected a percentage damage back rather then per hit. It counters fast hitting weapons to hard. Maybe that’s what it is intended to do, but retalliation is to common to hardcounter whole strategies like that.

Retaliation simply needs to be balanced in accordance to the extremes. There is something wrong when I throw maybe 2 or 3 volleys of Grenades onto a point and end up taking nearly 15k damage.

The extreme situations simply need to be curbed. Either through % reflection, Retaliation stacking in intensity and releasing a charge per activation, or through some limit on Retal you can take per second. I don’t know what the best solution would be, but I do know it’s a bit ridiculous that multi-hits and AoE’s get punished as severe as they are. I think it’s okay to be vulnerable to Retal because of those types of skills, but the punishment is too extreme.

This thread is just a big mimimimimimimi from alle skilless autoattack rangers.
Retaliation is pretty much the only defence a guardian has against a 1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 spamming ranger without it everyone could just max range autoattack a guardian down. Right now the chance to survive a trapper 1v1 is about 30-60% (a ranger on equal skill can always kill u) and if the ranger is low on hp he just disengage regenerate and push again. without retaliation the chance to survive a 1v1 against any ranger is about 1%. Instead of crying u should learn to use 2-9 and you are fine.

Acandis.3250:

Retal already got nerfed and you still want it to get worse?

Retal is a sad excuse to create damage on characters designed to not do damage.

I once died from 7.2k retaliation damage by cleaving a guardian and thief. the guardian was rezzing the downed thief and i couldn’t kill the guard cause he had a shaman’s amulet…it made me sad.

Here is a pic of retaliation of me (balanced Ele) vs my guild leader Hidden (phantasm Mesmer).

I am not saying bunker Ele is balanced, but even he admitted this seemed OP.

If you don’t attack while they have retal up, then you are just letting them beat on you for free. Only counter is boon removal I guess, but you can’t choose the boon.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

I once died from 7.2k retaliation damage by cleaving a guardian and thief. the guardian was rezzing the downed thief and i couldn’t kill the guard cause he had a shaman’s amulet…it made me sad.

retaliation depends on power not condition dmg a guard with shaman’s amulet deals almost no dmg with retaliation: 198,45 + (0,075 * 916) = 267,15 | 7200/267,15= 26,95
wow u hit that guard 27 times without killing him u should change your build!

Zoutsha.1093:

Noctis Assassin.4035:

I once died from 7.2k retaliation damage by cleaving a guardian and thief. the guardian was rezzing the downed thief and i couldn’t kill the guard cause he had a shaman’s amulet…it made me sad.

retaliation depends on power not condition dmg a guard with shaman’s amulet deals almost no dmg with retaliation

A guardian with shaman’s amulet has a crap ton of toughness. pistol whipping two targets is 17 hits. Woulda survived longer if I autoattacked but was trying to stun the guardian to stop him from rezzing the thief. Had quickness (pre-nerf) the whole time so its not like I coulda reacted fast enough. You are also not considering the thief as well with 2k power-ish.

You think retaliation is bad in sPvP?

Go to WvW and place a Feedback in front of a zerg, and lol when your 18k health on a fully healed mesmer is down to 0 in ~0.5s.
Like a fountain of red 3xx hitting you xD

Zoutsha.1093:

Noctis Assassin.4035:

I once died from 7.2k retaliation damage by cleaving a guardian and thief. the guardian was rezzing the downed thief and i couldn’t kill the guard cause he had a shaman’s amulet…it made me sad.

retaliation depends on power not condition dmg a guard with shaman’s amulet deals almost no dmg with retaliation: 198,45 + (0,075 * 916) = 267,15 | 7200/267,15= 26,95
wow u hit that guard 27 times without killing him u should change your build!

It’s much more likely that the guardian gave AoE retaliation to his thief friend that was using a power oriented build. Also, it procs two retaliations per cleave that way :p All it took was the guardian use “Stand Your Ground!” for a Stability oriented revive which gave him and his friend Stability AND Retaliation for 5s.

The comparison to confusion isn’t valid imo. This is a team game where you focus targets. Thats where retaliation REALLY shines as it can hit entire teams of people at a time. Confusion will maybe remove 1 person from the battle.

I also don’t see the the reason retaliation should punish specifically multihit/quick hitting abilities so hard. Guardian’s stacking retal are so common that say pistol whip and D/D Ranger just aren’t viable. Why have abilities in the game only to have them unusable?

Swim.6830:

Here is a pic of retaliation of me (balanced Ele) vs my guild leader Hidden (phantasm Mesmer).

I am not saying bunker Ele is balanced, but even he admitted this seemed OP.

Over 80 hits. That’s like 220 damage per tick. Hardly OP. Now, if the elemental has a reliable way of gaining retaliation with little or no cooldown, then you do have an issue. However, the issue is with elementalists being OP, not the ability.

Retaliation needs a rework.

It makes grenadier engineer’s not that useful in WvWvW (logically grenade barrage should be best weapons against a big enemy blob, now it is a good recipe for suicide). Just throwing a grenade barrage + few other grenade skills onto an enemy zerg ball, which has been stacking retaliation, can produce crazy amount of damage in 1-2 seconds, enough to take down an engineer from full health. Retaliation should have some internal cooldown or reflect part only a reasonable percentage e.g. 10-40% of the original damage. Now e.g. let’s say each grenade does 250 damage and hits up to 5 targets, each provoking retation, the engineer takes back 350 retaliation damage from each hit. The engineer can take 3*5*350 = 5250 damage just merely using grenade skill #1, which hits each enemy roughly for just 250-500 damage. Conclusion: Retaliation does many times more damage onto the engineer than the engineer did into the its targets.

Suggested fix to retaliation:
1. Retaliation should trigger only once per skill activation, not multiple times. The current implementation favors zerg balling and makes the meta more boring (= retaliation shared with your zerb ball mates makes you extremely powerful defense against enemy AoE)
2. Retaliation should be proportional to the damage inflicted, not a fixed amount E.g. reflect back 10-40% of the original damage (scaling with power).

I’ve used barrage on a group with retaliation. I then began to run but since the arrows were still falling I was still dying. Went from 100 – 0 in 5 seconds.

Engis have it the worst ;_;

Ostricheggs.3742:

Engis have it the worst ;_;

I remember when 100 nade existed, the burst insta killed you if they had retal lololololol.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Engis have it the worst ;_;

100nades trollfail. If i were that guardian i would jump on the engi until respawn..or ragequit..

You do realize that I don’t play power much at all, right? And that hundred nades no longer exist, right? And that grenades are the most constant source of multi-hit damage available to any class in the game, right?

Yes, nade engis have it the worst as far as retal goes.

I once literally went from 17k health to 0 faster than I could react because my Pistol whip, hit everyone on their team.
Now to me, that was dumb as hell, because if everyone on your team is dumb enough to all clump up on that level.
Yelling out in Teamspeak “What the kitten” for 2 minutes.

Ostricheggs.3742:

You do realize that I don’t play power much at all, right? And that hundred nades no longer exist, right? And that grenades are the most constant source of multi-hit damage available to any class in the game, right?

Yes, nade engis have it the worst as far as retal goes.

I beg to differ. Flamethrower autoattack is the worse :p It’s still an Engineer thing though.

We are talking about an AoE effect that gets retaliated on 5 times per second while doing 49 base damage per hit.

Retaliation or reflect damage of any sort has no business in any serious competitive games. It’s simply too rewarding for the effort contributed.

If you MUST have such a mechanic lower the duration and increase the damage to cause players to put more thought into when and how they use it. The equivalent of a non physical counter attack and make it easier to read like a ranger holding up their sword blocking. I have the same feelings about confusion.

But then again I think people should have to work for their kills… maybe im wrong.

Aye, it hurts flamethrower and grenades like hell. :/

It’s been my opinion, ever since launch, that retaliation is really only an issue for burst builds, and that’s still my opinion. I’ve never had a problem with it unless I ran burst.

aydenunited.5729:

It’s been my opinion, ever since launch, that retaliation is really only an issue for burst builds, and that’s still my opinion. I’ve never had a problem with it unless I ran burst.

My Mug/C&D/Backstab thief laughs about your puny retaliation. Retaliation punishes multihit attacks, not burst.

stof.9341:

aydenunited.5729:

It’s been my opinion, ever since launch, that retaliation is really only an issue for burst builds, and that’s still my opinion. I’ve never had a problem with it unless I ran burst.

My Mug/C&D/Backstab thief laughs about your puny retaliation. Retaliation punishes multihit attacks, not burst.

Exactly… so if it doesn’t affect burst that isn’t multi-hit, and it doesn’t affect bunkers, and it doesn’t affect any reasonable balanced build, and it doesn’t happen anywhere near as fact as any other reaction time move in the game (stopping your attack when enemy reflects, dodging said burst, etc.) then how can this really be that much of an issue?

I agree it tends to be a lazy game mechanic, but it’s not hard to avoid at all, it only punishes people who spam attacks and don’t watch their conditions/boons, and even then, it typically only punishes terribly flimsy builds.

Retaliation and confusion are simply bad mechanics full stop that bad players use as a crutch. It shouldn’t exist in sPvP at all IMO. Passive damage with no downside at all.

If your taking damage, and nothing is hitting you, its retialation. Also I can usually observe this boon fairly quickly.

Valkyriez.6578:

Retaliation and confusion are simply bad mechanics full stop that bad players use as a crutch. It shouldn’t exist in sPvP at all IMO. Passive damage with no downside at all.

It’s always up to you chosing to attack a target with retaliation on or casting skills while under confusion….this reminds me of ppl keep skilling while under spiteful spirit in gw1, and going down that way had never been considered a balance problem…it was only bout l2p…good players knew they had to stop while under it waiting for end\remove, newbs just suicided while damaging allies…noone ever complained about..if you had someone not caring bout ss keep spamming dmg on himself and the rest of you team it was usually an istant kik for the next run…problem solved…play smart next time, if not just go back pve..

Old good days when gw pvp wasn’t casual oriented and was actually way more competitive and gratifying…now everyone must suceed even if playing like kitten…so sad…
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit

Archaon.6245:

Valkyriez.6578:

Retaliation and confusion are simply bad mechanics full stop that bad players use as a crutch. It shouldn’t exist in sPvP at all IMO. Passive damage with no downside at all.

It’s always up to you chosing to attack a target with retaliation on or casting skills while under confusion….this reminds me of ppl keep skilling while under spiteful spirit in gw1, and going down that way had never been considered a balance problem…it was only bout l2p…good players knew they had to stop while under it waiting for end\remove, newbs just suicided while damaging allies…noone ever complained about..if you had someone not caring bout ss keep spamming dmg on himself and the rest of you team it was usually an istant kik for the next run…problem solved…play smart next time, if not just go back pve..

Old good days when gw pvp wasn’t casual oriented and was actually way more competitive and gratifying…now everyone must suceed even if playing like kitten…so sad…
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spiteful_Spirit

Let’s be honest, confusion and retaliation are just dumped down version of all the backfire spells GW1 offered.
But that is needed when there is practically no usefull condi cleans/boon removal like in GW1.

Yeah, retaliation could use some sort of internal cooldown per target and % of damage reflected. In my opinion it would be nice, if the damage it can apply become capped at X damage per two seconds per target (let’s assume 2k per 2s), and then reflect a certain amount of damage dealt, instead of a static number. The damage reflect threshold could then be increased by the players power.

It would give it a meaning against hard hitting attacks and still be usefull against multihit attacks. It wouldn’t necessarily punish one or another.

Confusion in sPvP on the other hand, is so shortlived, I often don’t even recognize. I take like 1 or if it is really bad 2k, because after that ability the first stacks will run out anyway. In WvW on the other hand, confusion is a beast, and a mesmers best way to AoE. With pizza and alot more confusion damage and of course not the artifical halfed damage, it is something you have to keep an eye out for. My maximum was 5.5k damage on a shortbow ranger. Needless to say that he died pretty fast.