Guild Wars 2

I think Anet really shot themselves in the foot when they didn’t allow class stacking in ESL, yet allow it in regular PvP and still try to achieve a single balance for both PvP arenas. Real easy solution to that is to just allow class stacking in ESL.

If classes are well balanced, then this shouldn’t change a single thing for ESL. If classes aren’t well balanced, then some ESL teams might start stacking a class or two. Regardless of whether anything actually changes in the ESL team comps however, this change should make balancing much easier for ANet in the future since now both arenas would be under the same rules. They could balance for both regular PvP and ESL under the assumption that ESL teams could stack classes if there were some benefit to doing so.

That’s it, my only reason for wanting this honestly. I just want it to be easier for ANet to balance classes for both arenas at the same time.

5 thief new meta

OriOri.8724:

I think Anet really shot themselves in the foot when they didn’t allow class stacking in ESL, yet allow it in regular PvP and still try to achieve a single balance for both PvP arenas. Real easy solution to that is to just allow class stacking in ESL.

If classes are well balanced, then this shouldn’t change a single thing for ESL. If classes aren’t well balanced, then some ESL teams might start stacking a class or two. Regardless of whether anything actually changes in the ESL team comps however, this change should make balancing much easier for ANet in the future since now both arenas would be under the same rules. They could balance for both regular PvP and ESL under the assumption that ESL teams could stack classes if there were some benefit to doing so.

That’s it, my only reason for wanting this honestly. I just want it to be easier for ANet to balance classes for both arenas at the same time.

Stacking was a problem though.
If anything they should remove class stacking from normal PvP so that we don’t have stacked classes, because, here’s the thing, even if every skill was balanced perfectly it’s impact would change as soon as it was there more than once.
That’s the reason a team with multiple dragonhunters can be problematic in the current season in certain divisions while a single dragonhunter wouldn’t pose a problem.

Stacking in itself is a problem, i mean, why do you think there aren’t multiple of the different Aces in a card game during poker?

You can’t keep balancing around ESL either or the game will be forever infamous because of the frustrations, DH is still unpopular in Tournaments but in solo/duo que it is kitten spammed class along with warrior.

Think I’m wrong? Ok yeah then have fun with your perpetual low population numbers in PvP.

XxsdgxX.8109:

You can’t keep balancing around ESL either or the game will be forever infamous because of the frustrations, DH is still unpopular in Tournaments but in solo/duo que it is kitten spammed class along with warrior.

Think I’m wrong? Ok yeah then have fun with your perpetual low population numbers in PvP.

Regardless of what many people say, the thing is there is NOTHING wrong with balancing for ESL/top level. That is the level people aim to be at and if the game was balanced for bad players, then legendary division and organised tournaments would be much less interesting. Back when I was a bad player, I didn’t want the game balanced around me. I was bad and good people will deal with things differently to how I did. Balancing around top level play really helps people improve, like it has for me.

Guard is fine (still needs buffs to be honest but better than before), every other class is fine and class stacking is fine. The only situation where I think class stacking gives you an advantage is when a team plays double necro with an ele. This gives them the best teamfight in the game but even that is only a minor advantage which can be worked around with outrotations and choosing matchups correctly.

Stacked DH is pretty bad, stacked thief is trash, stacked ele is trash, stacked Rev is trash, stacked engi or Druid is not too bad but it does not give you an advantage, same with stacked warr and Mesmer. As I said, the only stacked class that gives you a minor advantage is necro and that is ONLY if you have a good support ele and any more than 2 necros is very bad. I am saying this having played over 800 games this season at legendary/plat 3 so I believe I have a good idea of what I am talking about for this season.

As for allowing class stacking in ESL, I agree that, with the current state of balance, there is no problem with allowing it. However, not for balance reason but purely for more variety and interesting comps, the rules should stay as they are. Yes, if a team wants to run 3 mesmers they do not gain an advantage- quite the opposite infact- but seeing teams do this would just make it a bit less interesting for people like me to watch.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Stacking was a problem though.

Stacking was a problem because balance was (and still is) bad. That’s why ESL decided on their rule.

What OP is saying is that any future tournaments should allow class stacking. That makes the balance problems more apparent, and the thinking is that it will force ANet to address them faster.

You have to balance for both the top and everywhere else. That’s what many people forget. If something dominates at low and mid skill levels, it chases away a lot of the playerbase. However, you don’t have to balance as finely below the top the top. You just have to balance enough to stop a few low skill, high reward builds from dominating.

Right now, there are a few of those low skill, high reward builds: dragonhunter, berserker warrior, evade spam thief. They aren’t a problem for top players, but for the other 95% of the playerbase, they’re extremely frustrating to play against.

Exedore.6320:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Stacking was a problem though.

Stacking was a problem because balance was (and still is) bad. That’s why ESL decided on their rule.

What OP is saying is that any future tournaments should allow class stacking. That makes the balance problems more apparent, and the thinking is that it will force ANet to address them faster.

---

You have to balance for both the top and everywhere else. That’s what many people forget. If something dominates at low and mid skill levels, it chases away a lot of the playerbase. However, you don’t have to balance as finely below the top the top. You just have to balance enough to stop a few low skill, high reward builds from dominating.

Right now, there are a few of those low skill, high reward builds: dragonhunter, berserker warrior, evade spam thief. They aren’t a problem for top players, but for the other 95% of the playerbase, they’re extremely frustrating to play against.

Yes, thank you for clearing that up. This is what I am hoping to achieve by allowing class stacking in ESL. Balancing for all skill levels will always be an insurmountable task, and I think that ANet does a pretty good job at it considering how infrequently we get balance patches. But having the very top players play by an entirely different set of rules makes this even harder for Anet.

@suffish – I agree with most of what you wrote. but I disagree on what skill level Anet should balance around. They should not balance for the bottom, and likewise they should also not balance around the very best players either. Ideally balance would be focused around high Gold-low Platinum. Whatever skill level ~15-20% of the population can reach consistently. Anything higher and you are just driving away lower skilled players. Yes, there are some like you who use that to make themselves better. But realistically there are more people being driven away than there are that are being encouraged to up their play with the balance focused around the ESL level of play.

I have say a lot of times, This is not a balance problem. This is a design problem. Gw2 game mode Point stand + AoE + off&def same time + candi stack spamm —- you cannot get any balance in both side under those ridiculous condition. New player or Low skill player who don’t know ALL CLASS ALL SKILL rotation don’t have any chance. They can not even hurt the veteran in that block block block inv inv move out dodge dodge blind blind heal heal move in system and die in sec for that ridiculous damage / AoE. They even don’t know how to die by crazy condi stack .

They are in CSGO may be kill a veteran by a lucky shot and get satisfaction. But here, sorry
veteran100-0 newbie <—- THIS IS THE PROBLEM! If a game 100-0 that mean no/less new player will join and stay.

Anet put many sustain , AoE , passive in HoT and reduce skill requirement. They want to let Low skill player / New player have something fight will veterans. Unfortunately, veteran use them like a hacker and make New / low player feel hopeless.

Why don’t you add Merc, cele and clerics back in that case, NO one apparently had a problem with anything until those amulets got removed :]

Exedore.6320:

LouWolfskin.3492:

Stacking was a problem though.

Stacking was a problem because balance was (and still is) bad. That’s why ESL decided on their rule.

What OP is saying is that any future tournaments should allow class stacking. That makes the balance problems more apparent, and the thinking is that it will force ANet to address them faster.

---

You have to balance for both the top and everywhere else. That’s what many people forget. If something dominates at low and mid skill levels, it chases away a lot of the playerbase. However, you don’t have to balance as finely below the top the top. You just have to balance enough to stop a few low skill, high reward builds from dominating.

Right now, there are a few of those low skill, high reward builds: dragonhunter, berserker warrior, evade spam thief. They aren’t a problem for top players, but for the other 95% of the playerbase, they’re extremely frustrating to play against.

Yeah I agree with you on this, and they need to fix the ridiculous low risk/high reward builds, exactly the ones you mentioned:

Exedore.6320:

dragonhunter, berserker warrior, evade spam thief.

Also you are right here:

suffish.4150:

Regardless of what many people say, the thing is there is NOTHING wrong with balancing for ESL/top level.

So I should rephrase what I said.
You should not only balance around ESL. Thats why these really low skill floor builds with high reward plague PvP and stay untouched or even buffed after each patch, while builds that only top tier players could master (Revenant is one example) get nerfed into the oblivion even though they were never popular among the total population. (From Bronze to Legendary if you can’t get it)

Pretty sure stacking is problem in any MMORPG. Simple reason, if you have 5 players with access to one skill that is strong on it’s own but on a cooldown it will break game very fast when that skill can be used 5 times at the same time or in succession.
Take any class and you can find a way to break the game.
Stacking traps to instantly kill people, healers being immortal when stacked, condi thieves stealing, 5 rangers sniping anything from 1500 range…
Popular example from another game: multiboxing shamans – there’s a reason for shamans in particular. Chain lightning and chain healing. On it’s own is OK-ish, but multiply by 15 or 20 and suddenly it takes whole city to wipe them.

martin.1653:

Pretty sure stacking is problem in any MMORPG.

Not a problem in WoW. Wasn’t a problem for most of GW2 up until HoT.

The problem is runaway power creep. HoT elites need nerfed.

I don’t agree. I remember the days of 5 rangers and the days of 5 hambow wars rolling over everything in sight.( Hambow continued to be dominant for weeks or months before it was addressed. )

I honestly thought the OP was being sarcastic. Class stacking has been an issue for as long as I’ve been in PvP. It should be locked out.

Ithilwen.1529:

I honestly thought the OP was being sarcastic. Class stacking has been an issue for as long as I’ve been in PvP. It should be locked out.

He is. In a different way than you are thinking. Having the same rules in ESL than regular ranked would really point out issues in balancing, thus forcing ANet to address said issues instead “hotfixing” with arbitrary rules.

XxsdgxX.8109:

You can’t keep balancing around ESL either or the game will be forever infamous because of the frustrations, DH is still unpopular in Tournaments but in solo/duo que it is kitten spammed class along with warrior.

Think I’m wrong? Ok yeah then have fun with your perpetual low population numbers in PvP.

There is a issue with classes and how they are played but saying Dh is a issue in solo/duo que i would disagree with.

Today i did 3 matches and i won 1 and lost 2. The 2 games i lost we had 2 DHs and the other had 1 ( one game) and 0 the other game. Scores were like 500-32 and 500-48.

First game we clearly had 1 player who probably shouldnt have been in this plat level game as it seemed many of us were fighting to get in the top 250 or maintain there position.

2nd loss game our DH’s were just hard countered by a team of ele/druid/thief/ 2 engys.

Neither could win a 1 vs 1 against any of them and they struggled in the team fights as well.

I believe that the HOT specs really destroyed the learning curve of the game and Anet really needs to address build diversity and the skill level of each build.

But i disagree and think the game should be based around the ESL players because they are the ones playing it at its highest level.

If we are honest, we dont know what the best team comp in the game is since Anet has a 1 class per team rule.

Im pretty sure we can all agree the game is kind of broken balance wise since we still have this rule in place.

Ithilwen.1529:

I don’t agree. I remember the days of 5 rangers and the days of 5 hambow wars rolling over everything in sight.( Hambow continued to be dominant for weeks or months before it was addressed. )

I honestly thought the OP was being sarcastic. Class stacking has been an issue for as long as I’ve been in PvP. It should be locked out.

Hambow was nerfed quickly. It wasnt like Dhuumfire necro or spirit ranger.

Lets not go crazy here.

L0l quickly as in 1.5 years before it was phased out.
This game should never have competitive class stacking. Like overwatch, the game could be nearly completely balanced but never fully so. Teams will always do 2 best dps, 2 best tanksupport, 1 utility or even 3/2/0. The advantage of having slightly better classes is too large to give up with tens of thousands of dollars on the line.

Class stacking was even problem in simple shooters like OW – so they removed class stacking. Meanwhile gw2 dev team balances classes around no class stacking but allows class stacking in pvp – nice joke.

This game is 4 years old and we still see same issues.

@Ithilwen see @Yannirs reply.

@Cynz – That is exactly the problem. PvP is balanced around ESL level of play, which means it is balanced around not having class stacking. So if class stacking was allowed in ESL then ANet would have to balance under the assumption that there would be class stacking if it was advantageous to the team to do so. Which means that balance should become better.

Anet doesnt want gw2 to be even less of an esport when it’s 4 dh 1 ele vs 4 dh 1 ele, exciting gameplay.

Ninski.5680:

Anet doesnt want gw2 to be even less of an esport when it’s 4 dh 1 ele vs 4 dh 1 ele, exciting gameplay.

That’s the point though. If class stacking were allowed in ESL and it was advantageous to stack classes, then ANet would be pressed much harder to fix that quickly than they currently are. They wouldn’t want to see any team take 4 of the same class, whatever it was. So if a team was considering it for tournament play the hope is this would get that build brought in line quicker.

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

I was gonna ask,

Because when you go back and watch EU ESL games before the D/D meta. EU teams usually had 1 of each class.

It was NA running double engy and ele.

Like when we go back and look at it, those GW2 core tournaments were pretty good.

Even back when i believe you were in WTS 1, wouldnt you say the balance was better then?

kdaddy.5431:

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

I was gonna ask,

Because when you go back and watch EU ESL games before the D/D meta. EU teams usually had 1 of each class.

It was NA running double engy and ele.

Like when we go back and look at it, those GW2 core tournaments were pretty good.

Even back when i believe you were in WTS 1, wouldnt you say the balance was better then?

Yeah

TBH they should only balance around EU feedback, and this is coming from a NA player.

Ithilwen.1529:

I don’t agree. I remember the days of 5 rangers and the days of 5 hambow wars rolling over everything in sight.( Hambow continued to be dominant for weeks or months before it was addressed. )

Lol wut?

Hambow was strong, but nowhere near as strong as elite specs are. Hambow also had weaknesses, like being able to dodge or kite their CC chain.

Dhuumfire was nerfed in PvP a few weeks after it made its debut. Even then, you couldn’t just stack necros outright. Same with petting zoo rangers.

kdaddy.5431:

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

I was gonna ask,

Because when you go back and watch EU ESL games before the D/D meta. EU teams usually had 1 of each class.

It was NA running double engy and ele.

Like when we go back and look at it, those GW2 core tournaments were pretty good.

Even back when i believe you were in WTS 1, wouldnt you say the balance was better then?

WTS 1 and before EU had absolutely garbage comps, like they refused to stack OP AF d/d ele and wouldn’t even play broken cele engi. After that ppl always had pride in playing their main unless it was totally kitten, so most comps were pretty "balanced’ supposedly. Even leading up to PL season 1 people were playing mains rather than OP classes. Everything changed imo (In NA) when PZ finally started not sucking by stacking revs and no one could compete lol. Now ppl just run whatevers most broken, no matter what.

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Everything changed imo (In NA) when PZ finally started not sucking by stacking revs and no one could compete lol. Now ppl just run whatevers most broken, no matter what.

soo, blame WTS teams.
got it.
:3

Cynz.9437:

Meanwhile gw2 dev team balances classes around no class stacking but allows class stacking in pvp

There is no evidence that Anet balances anymore around ESL than they do around anything else.

Player’s came up with that myth because they are salty over not having the game balanced to their personal tastes, so they invent wild conspiracy theories instead.

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Meanwhile gw2 dev team balances classes around no class stacking but allows class stacking in pvp

There is no evidence that Anet balances anymore around ESL than they do around anything else.

Player’s came up with that myth because they are salty over not having the game balanced to their personal tastes, so they invent wild conspiracy theories instead.

Nobody says they balance around ESL – it is just very obvious that spells are balanced around having one of certain classes per team. Prime example thief – more than 1 thief on team is 99% chance to lose. Same applied to revs when they were really strong – 1 rev was doable, multiple revs could instantly wipe anything on enemy team, no contest.

Remember the old joke 4 Cele Ele plus rez bot ( I mean thief)

Spartacus.3192:

Remember the old joke 4 Cele Ele plus rez bot ( I mean thief)

I do. I actually know the people who brought 5 eles to ESL on purpose just to show how stupid class stacking (and ele at that time) is. Only reason why rule was introduced on first place is because it was public display of stupidity of the design.

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

kdaddy.5431:

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

I was gonna ask,

Because when you go back and watch EU ESL games before the D/D meta. EU teams usually had 1 of each class.

It was NA running double engy and ele.

Like when we go back and look at it, those GW2 core tournaments were pretty good.

Even back when i believe you were in WTS 1, wouldnt you say the balance was better then?

WTS 1 and before EU had absolutely garbage comps, like they refused to stack OP AF d/d ele and wouldn’t even play broken cele engi. After that ppl always had pride in playing their main unless it was totally kitten, so most comps were pretty "balanced’ supposedly. Even leading up to PL season 1 people were playing mains rather than OP classes. Everything changed imo (In NA) when PZ finally started not sucking by stacking revs and no one could compete lol. Now ppl just run whatevers most broken, no matter what.

As someone at the top of the scene would you prefer that Anet opened up tournaments for any type of team comp?

like you said, EU and NA have always had different styles and now everyone plays whats most OP.

Im curious to see what the top teams would run in 5 man comps from both sides. I mean every team looks near identical as it is so how much worse can it get.

Cynz.9437:

Spartacus.3192:

Remember the old joke 4 Cele Ele plus rez bot ( I mean thief)

I do. I actually know the people who brought 5 eles to ESL on purpose just to show how stupid class stacking (and ele at that time) is. Only reason why rule was introduced on first place is because it was public display of stupidity of the design.

Yeah but everyone was asking for a nerf for a long time and Anet waiting till the last second before they removed cele ammy and brought in HOT.

OMG that was a bad 2-3 years of PvP (hahahahahahahaha it really was years hahahahahahahaha)

xeonage.1253:

But here, sorry
veteran100-0 newbie <—- THIS IS THE PROBLEM! If a game 100-0 that mean no/less new player will join and stay.

This is not a problem. This type of logic is what leads to passive traits that reward people for taking a hit, rather than avoiding it like a skilled player. A veteran playing a high DPS build such as D/P thief or FA ele should be able to 100-0 somebody in around 6s if they don’t move or react in any way. If they do move/react, it’s no longer a 100-0 situation. That simple. If you don’t want to face the unpredictability and difficulty of playing versus other players, may I kindly introduce you to PvE?

The real issue in your overgeneralized example is that if a highly skilled veteran is facing a “newbie,” that isn’t an issue of class balancing or game design. It’s a failure of matchmaking and Anet’s pretending that their formula is infallible. That veteran shouldn’t have been in a match with new players in the first place.

kdaddy.5431:

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

kdaddy.5431:

ThatNAESLGuard.6238:

Tbf if esl teams were to make a team with class stacking it would probably be 2 scrapper 1 ele 1 mes 1 thief. So not as bad as it use to be with 2 mes 3 rev lolz

I was gonna ask,

Because when you go back and watch EU ESL games before the D/D meta. EU teams usually had 1 of each class.

It was NA running double engy and ele.

Like when we go back and look at it, those GW2 core tournaments were pretty good.

Even back when i believe you were in WTS 1, wouldnt you say the balance was better then?

WTS 1 and before EU had absolutely garbage comps, like they refused to stack OP AF d/d ele and wouldn’t even play broken cele engi. After that ppl always had pride in playing their main unless it was totally kitten, so most comps were pretty "balanced’ supposedly. Even leading up to PL season 1 people were playing mains rather than OP classes. Everything changed imo (In NA) when PZ finally started not sucking by stacking revs and no one could compete lol. Now ppl just run whatevers most broken, no matter what.

As someone at the top of the scene would you prefer that Anet opened up tournaments for any type of team comp?

like you said, EU and NA have always had different styles and now everyone plays whats most OP.

Im curious to see what the top teams would run in 5 man comps from both sides. I mean every team looks near identical as it is so how much worse can it get.

No, I think bringing back class stacking would be terrible. There was really only 1 time when things were weird, when it was just introduced and rnecros were still busted. So necros would win every fight they’re inhen not vs another necro. Since then though there haven’t been serious imbalances in the meta. I think no class stacking puts more value into proper rotations as well since you might only have 1 counter to a certain spec on the other team and have to be in the right place or else youre screwed.