Guild Wars 2

Maylo.5892:

This should be a priority if you and we want to see PvP competitively successful, i thought the balance team is separated from other tasks in ANet, what are they doing all the time when no balance updates are being seen for months?

Probably they are very busy testing and balancing the many upcoming specializations and other changes coming with the expansion. Seems most likely anyway.

I would agree that small frequent balance changes would be preferably than how the devs have been handling things so far. To maintain a balanced competitive game you absolutely need to be fine tuning things and to do that you need small iterations.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

Yes! Thank you!

Im so happy right now. To be honest i did not think they where getting looked at before HoT.

Im extremely extatic about this!

Thanks Anet!

First off, I’m kinda happy at least one person thought out of the box about a solution to turret engies. I don’t agree with it, but I appreciate this way more than the normal rants. Anyways, long rant will be long. Apologies.

The easiest solution I can think of that would be balanced is to nerf the regen rate or on turrets. Make it every five seconds, or even possibly seven if need be. That would provide a fair aoe counter strategy that could succeed in actually destroying turrets and forcing a wider spread, hence more difficulty to collect boons. Despite loving this build, even I can admit it’s a little unfair that people essentially have to focus on me if they want to win. Probably easier to do that then to code for condi damage on turrets.

That said…. Turret engy was the first build that made me fall in love with pvp. It was different, strategic more so then other builds I had tried.

It still amazes me to see how many people assume that turrets just do all the work for you. Remember when the decap build was such a bane that people basically wanted engineers wiped off the face of the earth? That was legit. Dodges and stability were not enough to counter what a good decap engy could do to you. I’ll admit I’m fine with some balance issues on turrets, but do you ever take the time to understand why you keep loosing?

First off, Placement is king. If the Turret Engineer placed all his/her little friends around them, THAT MEANS THEY HAVE THE TRAIT WHERE EACH TURRET GIVES BOONS. It means they are going to hit harder and possibly reduce incoming damage if they choose the thumper turret (it grants protection). Like other people have said, this means TIMING IS EVERYTHING. View it less like ‘i hit the thing until it dies’ and more like a real time strategy. Coordinate with yourself to slip between their boons and catch their rotations off guard. Yes, BOTHER TO LEARN THE COOLDOWNS. If a turret engineer is your number one problem in life than address the bloody problem.

Secondly, DO NOT attack turrets. Any turret engineer that is not a masochist has taken the trait where turrets repair themselves over time. Short version “they regenerate quick.” This also increases the turret health pool, meaning that even IF you do destroy them, you’ve probably wasted a rotation on doing so. The real key is to get the engineer far enough away from their toys to where you at most have to deal with one of them. That said, RANGE WHEN POSSIBLE. If your party has a ranger, they should make VERY good friends with the turret engy.

Third, Turret Engies nearly completely sacrifice mobility. Oh sure they suck to fight especially 1v1, but guess what? You have mobility and allies. If they are hands down destroying you on one point, have your FIVE people focus the other two. The match becomes a 4v5 which results in a loss for the team with the turret engy. That’s one reason the NA pvp has slowly grow away from pure bunker, rotation is a very powerful tool when used correctly. As a turret engy I need to be on top of cool down times to even provide mild support to anywhere else. In the stress of a mid battle it’s easy to forget and wind up having no utility skills to support other points.

Engineers may play their build differently and you need to prepare to see variations. Guess what though? If you want to be good at pvp you need to both know your weaknesses and understand your enemy. Normally though the game community skips that step to come banging on the devs door with complaints of how broke their game is. “Why haven’t you fixed this yet?” Is basically the short way of saying “Just blindly swing the nerf bat because I don’t use it so I don’t care.”

This isn’t a simple ‘Get good brah.’ Chances are folks like Grouch are aware that tweaks might be necessary, but I guarantee you every time people refuse to bother pointing out change dynamics and just say “IT SUCKS NERF IT!” It falls on deaf ears. They put in countless hours trying to make it fair, only for you to judge it within a second while not bothering to bring evidence to the table.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

If Turret builds get nerfed, expect whine/rage post about every build in game Josh. It’s a slippery slope to walk along. Look how people started piling on other builds already.

Meanwhile, there is nothing AFK about a turret build, nothing! Tron, I’m just as active if not more so than you in that condi thief video of yours. If you think it’s fair to be able to hop into a node, drop caltrops, and hop out you’re being completely disingenuous. Turret’s don’t have condi clears. So you are basically asking for an “I WIN” button. Not to mention every Shoutbow can continue to burn the entire area without consequences.

Stark.1350:

Frankly having turrets auto destruct when an engineer moves to far away is plenty.

As long as that’s a PVP only change so that my PVE play is unaffected I could live with that.

DeWolfe.2174:

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

If Turret builds get nerfed, expect whine/rage post about every build in game Josh. It’s a slippery slope to walk along. Look how people started piling on other builds already.

Meanwhile, there is nothing AFK about a turret build, nothing! Tron, I’m just as active if not more so than you in that condi thief video of yours. If you think it’s fair to be able to hop into a node, drop caltrops, and hop out you’re being completely disingenuous. Turret’s don’t have condi clears. So you are basically asking for an “I WIN” button. Not to mention every Shoutbow can continue to burn the entire area without consequences.

So the turret engi is the first and only class to be balanced out with?
Come on who are you kidding. You need constant balance patches, to get a good balanced game. Right now i feel the balance is really close to optimal myself. Except for the turret engis and a few tweaks here and there. But turrets right now are the jack of all traders class atm.

And aslong turrets arent active skillbased noteholders, there is no skillbased game at all.

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

That said…. Turret engy was the first build that made me fall in love with pvp. It was different, strategic more so then other builds I had tried.

Stopped reading there. LOL. What a load of crap. Learn to play a real build xD

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

snip.

I read this as ‘take forever to try and remove one engi from one point while he has ownership and clocks up points for the win’.

My issue with the turret build is it occupies a cap point with AI. Maybe they could change it so you can deploy your turrets but to fire them you have to ‘use’ them like a piece of siege, so it’s not just AI firing them while you round around like a chicken hiding from damage.

The other problems are turrets not taking condi damage, crits, etc which just makes them too strong to take down, while the engo feeds off them with piles of boons permanently up.

Maybe all turret engis should be auto placed in Courtyard matches:-)

They do a lot of damage (and CC) for how tanky they are, it’s just as simple as that. But please, don’t forget about their celestial counterparts, I consider those even stronger. Also, don’t totally give in to the more vocals though, there are other outliers as well such as the ever mentioned cele eles, zerker thieves and so on, if you’re going to do a balance pass soon, don’t forget about those as well.

ronpierce.2760:

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

@Royal

Cele Ele is being pushed out of the meta by medi guards. Shoutbow is more op currently.

Erm… I don’t think Shout bow is remotely more OP than Celestial Engineer. o.O Maybe a little tankier, but Celestial Rifle engi can CC like a MFR and deal quite a bit of damage. Maybe not as “teamy” but Celestial Engineer is still pretty kitten OP.

And regardless, many would argue Shoutbow and Meid guardian are a OP too, doesn’t really mean celestial rifle doesn’t need toned down, because they really do. #NoPowercreep

He said ele, not engi.

Cele Rifle Engineer is not even OP at all. We’re a class with only one stun break most of the time and Necromancer and variants of Mesmer just run all over us. If Cele didn’t exist, Necromancer would be almost unbeatable and I’d be forced to play Static Discharge builds due to Necro being Condi + anti-Condi. Also, we only have 2-3 condi cleanse max per 20 seconds. How are we OP?

Let’s focus on the real problem here which are the turrets…

StarlightBreaker.8512:

Cele Rifle Engineer is not even OP at all. We’re a class with only one stun break most of the time and Necromancer and variants of Mesmer just run all over us. If Cele didn’t exist, Necromancer would be almost unbeatable and I’d be forced to play Static Discharge builds due to Necro being Condi + anti-Condi. Also, we only have 2-3 condi cleanse max per 20 seconds. How are we OP?

Let’s focus on the real problem here which are the turrets…

I agree on the cele engi not being OP apart from Slick Shoes knocking you down even without moving but not the necro part just nah. Boon hate needs to make a comeback resistance wasn’t needed a condition version to affect boons was.

William C.6195:

ronpierce.2760:

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

@Royal

Cele Ele is being pushed out of the meta by medi guards. Shoutbow is more op currently.

Erm… I don’t think Shout bow is remotely more OP than Celestial Engineer. o.O Maybe a little tankier, but Celestial Rifle engi can CC like a MFR and deal quite a bit of damage. Maybe not as “teamy” but Celestial Engineer is still pretty kitten OP.

And regardless, many would argue Shoutbow and Meid guardian are a OP too, doesn’t really mean celestial rifle doesn’t need toned down, because they really do. #NoPowercreep

He said ele, not engi.

Ah so he did. My bad! The person he quoted said Ele and Engi, misread it, assuming it had to do with Cele engi since this thread was mostly about Engi.

That said, I still hope Celestial Engineer gets looked at too.

I think a good 1 size fits all solution would be to move Accelerant packed Turrets to go back to master tier, that way there is a choice between an interrupting heal or IP for grenades, and it’s out of practical reach for turret engineers who would have to let go of either Boons, turret damage/range or Turret reflect for it.

StarlightBreaker.8512:

Cele Rifle Engineer is not even OP at all. We’re a class with only one stun break most of the time and Necromancer and variants of Mesmer just run all over us. If Cele didn’t exist, Necromancer would be almost unbeatable and I’d be forced to play Static Discharge builds due to Necro being Condi + anti-Condi. Also, we only have 2-3 condi cleanse max per 20 seconds. How are we OP?

Let’s focus on the real problem here which are the turrets…

Lol that has proven to not be true… CeleRifle is incredibly powerful… There’s a reason tourney runners run celestial rifle and not Turrets…

Good news. Sure turrets aren’t in top tier competitive, however they are far too op in casual play where there is no voice comms and where you have newer players who don’t always know what to do. They’re an AI cancer that needs removing and the game will be far better for it.

Time for all those turret engis to learn how to play the game properly, rather than sit at one node and spam chat with flames.

Here’s where skill splits are going to come into play again in the future. I’d hate to see a nerf in one format affect all the other formats of the game. It’s still disheartening after these few years to see that certain specs don’t work for a format because they can’t work in another because they’d be OP. It’s really narrow thinking.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

Turret engi is not effective or even viable. It is good to see that anet knows that turret engis effectiveness is low and is looking closely at the problem. Looking forward to see the buffs to turret engi.

Maybe a way to determine whether a build is OP or not for random is to check out the top 500 players, see what they play most to win the most random non-premade matchups, then adjust those builds….although the only one I don’t like is the one that relies on AI, the others at least I get to play against a human (even if it’s a cheesy human).

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

Grouch, while you are looking at Engineers, can you look at the Hobosack?

Ravenmoon.5318:

Shadow Dragon Bob.7160:

That said…. Turret engy was the first build that made me fall in love with pvp. It was different, strategic more so then other builds I had tried.

Stopped reading there. LOL. What a load of crap. Learn to play a real build xD

I have played other builds since then, but good job being THE EXACT person that ruins pvp for new people.

Turret engie doesn’t need a nerf. The build is easy for inexperienced players to play at lower levels, and its hard for inexperienced players to beat; which is why people complain about it. If anything it needs to be provided with more versatility at the cost of lower base effectiveness.
The problem with AI builds is that while they have a low skill cap to play decently, there’s also a hefty limit on how far you can actually go with them since you can only manipulate the AI so much.

Also in response to the initial topic: While it would make some sense for turrets to take burning damage, the build is already very vulnerable to conditions, and that would only make that matter worse. Possibly even making it useless against condi. Conditions like vulnerability might make more sense balance wise.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

I hope this changes balance Rangers too. Or i am wrong that the rangers are OP too?

If you want changes in the turrets, make them suseptible to some conditions (like burns) or critical hits.

And like i said before, if you nerfed engi turrets, i hope that nerfed too the ranger’s pet, the mesmer’s clones and the necro’s minions…

Objects hit with DPS conditions should get a generic stacking DPS effect similar to bleed, called something like “Erosion”.

Turrents in particular should also be affected by Vulnerability, Chilled and Slow. Their stats slightly improved to cope with that.

Something should also be done for critical hits, instead being immune.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

I want to know what you want Turret engineers to be and how you want turret engineers to play.

Because if you nerf turret engineers without a plan, you might as well delete turrets and waste all those years of turret bugfixes.

Turret engineers are barely viable. It is on the edge of uselessness and average. Why? Because unlike any other AI build, turrets cannot move. At least with minions, they move with you.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

THANK YOU!!!
Finally, I can rest in peace now..

I feel so relieved!

Superform.1067:

making balance changes based on whiney kids feedback is fail

turret engies are fine – only those who don’t know how to fight them cry

there is a reason no one plays them competitively – think about that before you nurf them anymore

Seeing as you and your best buddy play turret engi. Of course you think they are fine. And as for them “not being played competitively” team radioactive completely wiped the floor with APeX in the first match of the ESL monthlies, then the onlu reason APeX won the second match is radioactive had no answer for a 5 man lord push, and then APeX just barely won on the Battle of Khylo for the 3rd. So yeah they do get used competitively.

REDR.2540:

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

I hope this changes balance Rangers too. Or i am wrong that the rangers are OP too?

If you want changes in the turrets, make them suseptible to some conditions (like burns) or critical hits.

And like i said before, if you nerfed engi turrets, i hope that nerfed too the ranger’s pet, the mesmer’s clones and the necro’s minions…

You want to nerf mesmer clones? Lol apart from staff clones, mesmer clones are used for nothing but to fuel shatters. Not to mention mesmers are still Barely being used in tournaments again, and even still stuck with the same kittening build they have been using since flilping release.

Anyone who says turrets are barely viable are squirming in their chairs with the sudden realization that they might actually have to learn to play the game. lol.

I am not going to play this game’s PvP until Turret Engineer is properly addressed. While it does have weaknesses and people aren’t being smart about getting in their faces and being bounced around like a pinpall…

It is a crutch build. People who just want to win with the path of least resistance are flooding to Turret Engineer, which explains the leaderboards. Stack Turret Engi, make everyone mad, they ragequit or rotate poorly, easy win.

If Anet is not going to limit build options, which would solve the entire Conquest balance problem, then at least make sure that AI builds other than Mesmer are given less incentive than builds that require the player actually risking something by going to a capture point.

My main complaint is the fact that they are AI controlled., immune to conditions and have high health and regen. It literally requires no skill and THAT is what’s frustrating. Blake away any ONE of those things on the list and it’s fine. As it is now its just a stupid mans spec that’s used for trolling. Hence the multi turret engine premades.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

Clearly you’ve all misinterpreted what the good man Grouch is saying here seeing as you’re all talking about turret engie effectivness in terms of nerfs.

There’s a lot of weaknesses in Turret engie right now, such as a lack of stun break, condi clear, and the fact turret engies can’t move away from the point where their turrets are without loosing almost all of their effectiveness. These are some of the problems Anet wants to fix to complete the turret engie meta conversion.

Currently turret engie isnt in the torny meta. Only once its full 5v5 turret engie torny teams will the game be complete : D

DeWolfe.2174:

…… Meanwhile, there is nothing AFK about a turret build, nothing! ………

• Engineer drops turrets apart on a capture point.
• I roll in alone to cap point.
• By the time I capture the point I am at less than 25% hp

I play a S/D thief, this is after 4 dodge rolls, 6-8 Flanking Strike evades, and 1 Withdraw. All while still actively trying to damage the turrets. But since I have to focus everything on evading them, and their HP is so insanely high for AI, I am lucky if I manage to kill just one by the time that point fully turns to my teams color.

This is all without the engineer even coming back to defend the point. I am alone with his turrets. Yeah, whining about protecting your broken build isn’t going to get you away from this highly deserved nerf-bat.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Have a good weekend,

Grouch

as much as i hate to say it, turret engineers need to have SPLIT BALANCING… in PVP they are too strong, while in open world PvE against a single veteran, they quickly lose their power. throw in multiple vets or champs, and turrets become useless. and yes, my calling them useless IS hyperbole, but i think it demonstrates the difference between game modes.

/uninstall engineer -spvp

why are you so heavy against engi turrets? they are only slightly (~10%) op
next time you see a turret engi just send your nec in to take care of him.

there are many other construction sites that needs to be fixed. e.g. perma fear nec, power rangers with homing missiles and invincible finishers from ele, engi, (mes)

Tiavor.4016:

why are you so heavy against engi turrets? they are only slightly (~10%) op
next time you see a turret engi just send your nec in to take care of him.

there are many other construction sites that needs to be fixed. e.g. perma fear nec, power rangers with homing missiles and invincible finishers from ele, engi, (mes)

Don’t bring necro into this, not every pug will listen to you, the ops can be build to support him. Now I always see one with a shoutbow where conditions were supposed to kill them…

Tiavor.4016:

why are you so heavy against engi turrets? they are only slightly (~10%) op
next time you see a turret engi just send your nec in to take care of him.

there are many other construction sites that needs to be fixed. e.g. perma fear nec, power rangers with homing missiles and invincible finishers from ele, engi, (mes)

They might be only 10% Op, but they only require like ~10% of the effort to play. That’s why people are frustrated, powerful and have only like 6 buttons it presses regularly lol.

Tiavor.4016:

why are you so heavy against engi turrets? they are only slightly (~10%) op
next time you see a turret engi just send your nec in to take care of him.

there are many other construction sites that needs to be fixed. e.g. perma fear nec, power rangers with homing missiles and invincible finishers from ele, engi, (mes)

Sure perma fear necro is annoying but how many of those have you seen good ones and how many easy turret engi wins have you seen compared to the necro.

And to PvE vs PvP. They could make any skill different for pve and for pvp.

a flamethrower turret taking burning damage ._.

Not trying to be mean but… Why do so many people call Turrets “Turrents”? Where does this come from?

Changing turret engis won’t change the fact that engis in general are still OP in PvP. People who play turrets now will just change over to cele rifle nade spam, and then we’ll be sitting here complaining about that for the next 6 months.

style.6173:

Changing turret engis won’t change the fact that engis in general are still OP in PvP. People who play turrets now will just change over to cele rifle nade spam, and then we’ll be sitting here complaining about that for the next 6 months.

Well over half the people playing turret engineer likely won’t be nearly as deadly playing cele engineer where they have to actually use their utilities and hit multiple buttons. They are much more likely to continue playing a weakened turret build or look for the next most powerful AI build. As much as people complain about cele eng and ele at least they require some skill to play and I actually find cele ele worse then eng personally.

ronpierce.2760:

Not trying to be mean but… Why do so many people call Turrets “Turrents”? Where does this come from?

(Bit)Torrent + Turret – Spellchecker ~ Turrent.

style.6173:

Changing turret engis won’t change the fact that engis in general are still OP in PvP. People who play turrets now will just change over to cele rifle nade spam, and then we’ll be sitting here complaining about that for the next 6 months.

While I do agree cele rifle is over the gop, it will prolly be addressed the same time as turrets but it is at least slightly harder to play.

Josh Davis.6015:

While I don’t think the OP’s suggestion is exactly the change we’re going to go with, I thought I’d drop by and let you all know that the effectiveness of turret engineer is something we’re looking into very closely right now. Once our plans are a bit more concrete I’ll give an update.

Hmm. Vague, yet subtly cryptic.

I’ll consider the possibility of being intrigued when something actually coalesces out of the vaporware .

OlrunTheBlade.1486:

@Royal

Cele Ele is being pushed out of the meta by medi guards

How do we push them out of the meta when Cele Ele are the ones who counter medi guards?

You don’t see as many eles on high end teams, nor have I seen quite as many in solo queues.

jportell.2197:

style.6173:

Changing turret engis won’t change the fact that engis in general are still OP in PvP. People who play turrets now will just change over to cele rifle nade spam, and then we’ll be sitting here complaining about that for the next 6 months.

While I do agree cele rifle is over the gop, it will prolly be addressed the same time as turrets but it is at least slightly harder to play.

I doubt it. ANET always goes for the easy solution. That means it will just be lower HP, longer cooldown, less damage. You know the easy stuff on turrets. That won’t fix the issue.

The issue is sustain on engis in general. If they want to nerf turrets, start with the healing turret. Remove the water field from it. That will bring turret engis and cele rifle nade spamming engis back in line. It will also be nice to see some other healing skills used. Give the other healing skills a small buff.

style.6173:

jportell.2197:

style.6173:

Changing turret engis won’t change the fact that engis in general are still OP in PvP. People who play turrets now will just change over to cele rifle nade spam, and then we’ll be sitting here complaining about that for the next 6 months.

While I do agree cele rifle is over the gop, it will prolly be addressed the same time as turrets but it is at least slightly harder to play.

I doubt it. ANET always goes for the easy solution. That means it will just be lower HP, longer cooldown, less damage. You know the easy stuff on turrets. That won’t fix the issue.

The issue is sustain on engis in general. If they want to nerf turrets, start with the healing turret. Remove the water field from it. That will bring turret engis and cele rifle nade spamming engis back in line. It will also be nice to see some other healing skills used. Give the other healing skills a small buff.

I wouldn’t mind that. I think the crux of the turret problem overall is it’s easy to get a ton of damage with a ton of defense. What a well known engi had suggested is swapping experimental turrets with elixir infused bombs. That way engis HAVE to pick either more damage, more defense through boons, etc. They get their cake and eat it too atm