Guild Wars 2

Personally, I like Skyhammer very much. Zerging is less effective thanks the to annoying Canon user and jumping pads, and thus encourages teams to come up with alternative strategies.

I am well aware of a community of players (not all players), who are anti-Skyhammer in SoloQ. Well, quite simply it is time to stop this nonsense. If you’re not already aware of the one all important quality that is expected of every good player in PvP, then let me enlighten you: adaptation!

The very best PvP players are very good at adapting to their opponent(s) and to the map— simple!

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons and it is important for those who feel that they are at a slight disadvantage to find ways to maximise their skills when faced with an opponent who has the ability shunt you off into the abyss. Arenanet has already listened to some of your concerns and have implemented barriers on the edges in strategic locations. Therefore, it is time to allow your mind and skills to mature, but they can only do that through adaptation to both the environment and your opponent(s).

Consider this, I am sure that ArenaNet will invent more “controversial” conquest maps, but I am looking forward to adapt to them.

Regards and have fun.

Candar

Well, Arenanet showed how much they take into account the anti-Skyhammer feedback by creating a new WvW map that’s basically an overgrown Skyhammer hotjoin.

I’ll use the same analogy I used in my post there: PvP is like two teams of martial artists sparring to see who can beat the other — Skyhammer is like two teams of martial artists trying to see who can throw each other down a flight of stairs. There may be strategy and skill involved in both cases, but the latter is not what I (nor most people) are looking for in a game like this one.

To add to the above analogy. They try to throw eachother down the staircase, but one person has a tether attached to him, so he can’t fall. His class won’t let him fall.

There is no adaptation when your class is shafted on stability and lack of cc on respectable weapon sets.

Give me an instant cast shout for ranger and I would be fine with skyhammer.

“Hold!”
Immob target for 1.5-2s
20-30s CD
900 range instant cast.

Then whenever the low skill trolls stand over the plates to magnet you off or thief hook, you simply use your shout and they fly to their death 100% their own fault.

What about guys who played the map 100+ times, adapted and know exactly how to play it….and still hate it with a passion?

I had skyhammer games where i had 18-20 knockbacks and i still didnt enjoy it one bit. I am forced to cheese or get cheesed.

Qaelyn.7612:

Skyhammer is like two teams of martial artists trying to see who can throw each other down a flight of stairs. There may be strategy and skill involved in both cases, but the latter is not what I (nor most people) are looking for in a game like this one.

Its more like being a boxer or martial artist who finds out they changed the rules; guns are allowed in the ring all of a sudden. So what will the guys who are favour tell them?

“Well, quite simply it is time to stop this nonsense. If you’re not already aware of the one all important quality that is expected of every good martial artist, then let me enlighten you: adaptation!”

“Using guns in the ring is clearly unique for many reasons and it is important for those who feel that they are at a slight disadvantage to find ways to maximise their skills when faced with an opponent who has the abbilitie to blow you away with one single shot.”

But what if we dont want to use guns in the ring? What if we want to keep our martial arts hand to hand combat only? What if we want simple good old pvp combat without one shots? You ever thought of that mister OP?

Candar.8140:

The very best PvP players are very good at adapting to their opponent(s) and to the map— simple!

The very best pvpers have one other thing in common. They all hate this map with a passion even if they adapted. Feel free to ask any of the top tier guys.

Candar.8140:

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons

Yes, unique because whether you win or lose, you leave raging.

Qaelyn.7612:

Well, Arenanet showed how much they take into account the anti-Skyhammer feedback by creating a new WvW map that’s basically an overgrown Skyhammer hotjoin.

I’ll use the same analogy I used in my post there: PvP is like two teams of martial artists sparring to see who can beat the other — Skyhammer is like two teams of martial artists trying to see who can throw each other down a flight of stairs. There may be strategy and skill involved in both cases, but the latter is not what I (nor most people) are looking for in a game like this one.

But are you missing the point?!!! I think you are…Learn to adapt, that’s all!

I have just finished playing and won Skyhammer a few moments ago, and I can tell you that nobody fell into the abyss. You simply have to start thinking positively and stop following the negative consensus…I am beginning to believe that people are directing their furstration rooted in other issues in the game towards Skyhammer.

dimyzuka.7051:

Candar.8140:

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons

Yes, unique because whether you win or lose, you leave raging.

Nonsense! Makes no sense, provide evidence for your assertion.

So you want us all to reroll engineer? Really interesting and skillfull for sure. Makes definitely fun. Now stop trolling the forum and go elsewhere.

Don’t feed the trolls, skyhammer always was and always will be (I HOPE) the worst thing that happened to soloq.

It’s not even the fact it’s pushing and pulling people down, it’s the fact that’s it’s so, so buggy. I have had fights, where I should have killed someone maybe 5 times, for them then to finally land a skill and kill me.

Nothing beats guardian on this map either, it’s crazy.

Locuz.2651:

What about guys who played the map 100+ times, adapted and know exactly how to play it….and still hate it with a passion?

I had skyhammer games where i had 18-20 knockbacks and i still didnt enjoy it one bit. I am forced to cheese or get cheesed.

Qaelyn.7612:

Skyhammer is like two teams of martial artists trying to see who can throw each other down a flight of stairs. There may be strategy and skill involved in both cases, but the latter is not what I (nor most people) are looking for in a game like this one.

Its more like being a boxer or martial artist who finds out they changed the rules; guns are allowed in the ring all of a sudden. So what will the guys who are favour tell them?

“Well, quite simply it is time to stop this nonsense. If you’re not already aware of the one all important quality that is expected of every good martial artist, then let me enlighten you: adaptation!”

“Using guns in the ring is clearly unique for many reasons and it is important for those who feel that they are at a slight disadvantage to find ways to maximise their skills when faced with an opponent who has the abbilitie to blow you away with one single shot.”

But what if we dont want to use guns in the ring? What if we want to keep our martial arts hand to hand combat only? What if we want simple good old pvp combat without one shots? You ever thought of that mister OP?

Candar.8140:

The very best PvP players are very good at adapting to their opponent(s) and to the map— simple!

The very best pvpers have one other thing in common. They all hate this map with a passion even if they adapted. Feel free to ask any of the top tier guys.

“As you think, so shall you become.” —- Bruce Lee.

Start thinking outside the box, consider your build and style of play. I read on another forum that one reason why people hate Skyhammer is that they feel outside their comfort zone. Well, learn to get comfortable outside it!

As regards to top PvPer’s, for every one who hates Skyhammer, I will find one who likes it!

It is very easy to follow those who “seem” to be talking sense, those who “appear” to have the authority on what’s right! And at the moment, they appear to be anti-Skyhammer players, but are they representative of the player base? I am not sure they are.

Skyhammer is here to stay, I am cheering for it!!!

Candar.8140:

But are you missing the point?!!! I think you are…Learn to adapt, that’s all!

No, actually, you are missing the point. Several people have already replied to you directly: we want to play against other players — not the map.

It’s like I have a group of people who play poker regularly and one day we show up and the host says “today, instead of poker, we will all play Scrabble!” I can “adapt” and play Scrabble, certainly, but guess what? I want to play poker, that’s why I went there in the first place.

Candar.8140:

I have just finished playing and won Skyhammer a few moments ago, and I can tell you that nobody fell into the abyss.

I flat out do not believe you. I have literally never played a full match of Skyhammer without multiple people falling off the map.

Candar.8140:

dimyzuka.7051:

Candar.8140:

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons

Yes, unique because whether you win or lose, you leave raging.

Nonsense! Makes no sense, provide evidence for your assertion.

Evidence? How about every single kittening time i play the map i want to throw my computer out the window and then jump out myself.

Lukin.4061:

Don’t feed the trolls, skyhammer always was and always will be (I HOPE) the worst thing that happened to soloq.

I have never been more serious; I no troll!!!!

Just because I am taking a controversial position, doesn’t mean I am trolling, but more importantly, it doesn’t mean I am wrong!!!!

I stand by assertions.

Eh, I’m not nearly as against skyhammer as much as other people are. I actually like the additional elements of play that knockbacks add since they can make fights more complex.

I like that I have to pay attention to things like if a guardian has cast Blinding Blade or if I can take down a target with my back to a wall while survival skills are on cooldown.

However, yes, it can be cheap when an engi comes from stealth and insta-kills me with no warning by pulling me into a hole.

That all being said, in the end, it’s a very unpopular map and I can understand why people think it just doesn’t fit into a rated setting. There seem to be 2 options at hand to settle this:
1) Take Skyhammer out of solo Q. Unfortunately, this would be a waste of a map to only have it in hotjoin, but it would make a lot of players a lot happier.

2) Balance professions to allow for more counterplay or at least to give more knockback options to professions who have so few. The downside of this is that it would probably be a balancing nightmare for the devs since changing things to balance in Skyhammer without breaking other aspects of the game would be tough.

Qaelyn.7612:

Candar.8140:

But are you missing the point?!!! I think you are…Learn to adapt, that’s all!

No, actually, you are missing the point. Several people have already replied to you directly: we want to play against other players — not the map.

It’s like I have a group of people who play poker regularly and one day we show up and the host says “today, instead of poker, we will all play Scrabble!” I can “adapt” and play Scrabble, certainly, but guess what? I want to play poker, that’s why I went there in the first place.

Candar.8140:

I have just finished playing and won Skyhammer a few moments ago, and I can tell you that nobody fell into the abyss.

I flat out do not believe you. I have literally never played a full match of Skyhammer without multiple people falling off the map.

I only ever make truthful assertions, believe what you may, it doesn’t change my mind or position.

“No, actually, you are missing the point. Several people have already replied to you directly: we want to play against other players — not the map.”

Ok, you’re point is simply illogical…In every single map in the game, you will find that the map plays a vital role in all engagements!!! Why should Skyhammer be any different? In fact, it is impossible for the environment not to have an affect during combat! You make no sense at all!This is why I said you need to adapt to your opponent as well as the environment.

Make an engineer like everyone and play golf…

I just wish you could get extra points for the combo pulls and knockbacks to the glass that is in between the points.

I have the absolute least time for the community on these forums when players argue against complexity of gameplay.

Thumbs up to the OP, it is great to hear the voices of players who rarely venture here calling out from within the dark.

The great positive of this thread is the developers will see your post, hopefully feeling a measure of satisfaction they well deserve in the creation of this game and specifically this excellent map.

Candar.8140:

I only ever make truthful assertions, believe what you may, it doesn’t change my mind or position.

Anyone else here routinely play a full Skyhammer match and have nobody fall off the map?

Candar.8140:

Ok, you’re point is simply illogical…In every single map in the game, you will find that the map plays a vital role in all engagements!!! Why should Skyhammer be any different?

It shouldn’t be any different. That’s the problem: it is. The environment has far more of an impact on Skyhammer than any other map. The result is that the game becomes more about who matches up best with holding the hammer and very little about actual PvP.

Brew Pinch: If an overwhelming percentage of my customers thought poorly of my product, personally, “satisfaction” is not the emotion I’d be left with.

I enjoy Skyhammer, if my particular build/Profession lacks Stability or an abundance of knock backs/pulls then I will usually stay in the middle or back cap judging on the particular opposition.

It can be just as competitive and fun when fighting an opponent(s) when both of you lack reliable stability or CC just as it is when you both are equipped for this map, and can also be very challenging and rewarding to beat opponents who have superior control/stability. Since usually positioning and good understanding of this games mechanics are primarily what keeps you ahead in this map.

Regardless I will tell you this, Skyhammer makes defeating Minion necros/PU Mesmer/Spirit Rangers/Warriors much more plausible! And since that is usually the majority of the opposition, I am usually happy when I see this map in que.

Don’t fight against the map, let the Map fight with you and you will enjoy it.

Qaelyn.7612:

Candar.8140:

I only ever make truthful assertions, believe what you may, it doesn’t change my mind or position.

Anyone else here routinely play a full Skyhammer match and have nobody fall off the map?

Candar.8140:

Ok, you’re point is simply illogical…In every single map in the game, you will find that the map plays a vital role in all engagements!!! Why should Skyhammer be any different?

It shouldn’t be any different. That’s the problem: it is. The environment has far more of an impact on Skyhammer than any other map. The result is that the game becomes more about who matches up best with holding the hammer and very little about actual PvP.

Brew Pinch: If an overwhelming percentage of my customers thought poorly of my product, personally, “satisfaction” is not the emotion I’d be left with.

“Anyone else here routinely play a full Skyhammer match and have nobody fall off the map?”

I said “I have just finished playing Skyhammer”, meaning in that particular game, nobody fell off the edge, which is a mathmatical possibility and not beyond anyones imagination. What you have done is cherry picked my comment to suit your ends, which is ridiculous!!!!

“It shouldn’t be any different. That’s the problem: it is. The environment has far more of an impact on Skyhammer than any other map.”

Well at least you agree with me in that the map does have a role and an impact in combat. However, you are in danger of sounding like a scrub. All maps are different, they have to be! You’re right in that Skyhammer has a hazzard: falling/pushed off into the abyss. So, are you going to increase the possibility of that happening by standing near the edge? If you are, then you really don’t get the point of the original comments. We, the players, do not write/rewrite the rules, and nor should we! When your opponent is standing in front of a glass floor, waiting to pull you onto it, will you consider using stability or repositioning yourself to counter the pull? These are the things I am talking about, you simply have to start thinking about counters, and guess what? Start being clever! This is how the meta evolves, only through adaptation.

I am hoping for more innovative maps like Skyhammer where the players really have to start using their nouse to win matches, and not zerging aroung the place like mindless zombies.

Wolf.5816:

Don’t fight against the map, let the Map fight with you and you will enjoy it.

This is by far the most intelligent comment thus far, and from somebody who truly understands the art of adaptation.

Candar.8140:

However, you are in danger of sounding like a scrub.

So your response to the people who say they don’t like the style of the map because of how much the ledges/hammer impact gameplay is to insult them all with generic “l2p nub” nonsense.

Hint: I think this may be why some are accusing you of being a troll. You aren’t actually engaging people who disagree with you and making an effort to understand their objections. You’re just being obnoxious.

Qaelyn.7612:

Candar.8140:

However, you are in danger of sounding like a scrub.

So your response to the people who say they don’t like the style of the map because of how much the ledges/hammer impact gameplay is to insult them all with generic “l2p nub” nonsense.

Hint: I think this may be why some are accusing you of being a troll. You aren’t actually engaging people who disagree with you and making an effort to understand their objections. You’re just being obnoxious.

Ok, I suggest you reread my quote that you posted: “You are in danger of sounding like a scrub”…I did “NOT” call you a scrub, there is a big difference!

I have defended my position on this issue, I will continue to do so. Quite frankly I do not care if you find me obnoxious. I vehemently disagree with you and let’s agree to disagree — that is all!

You’re lecturing people on how to avoid getting knocked off the map, when nobody here is saying they don’t know how to avoid getting knocked of the map. They are saying they don’t enjoy playing a map oriented around either knocking people off the map or avoiding same.

The same goes for the ridiculously overpowered “if you control this one thing you win the game because you can spam-destroy any and all capture points” hammer. I want to play against other players, not have them nuke me by remote-control, or have me do it to them.

Qaelyn.7612:

You’re lecturing people on how to avoid getting knocked off the map, when nobody here is saying they don’t know how to avoid getting knocked of the map. They are saying they don’t enjoy playing a map oriented around either knocking people off the map or avoiding same.

The same goes for the ridiculously overpowered “if you control this one thing you win the game because you can spam-destroy any and all capture points” hammer. I want to play against other players, not have them nuke me by remote-control, or have me do it to them.

I was simply defending my position when challenged, which is what most people do. It is okay when somebody do not agree, I do not have an issue with that.

I simply disagree with you and continue to do so as you will disagree with me, let’s agree on that, if possible. I will no longer engage with you because I fail to see what else you can offer to the debate other than attempting to have the last word.

Candar.8140:

dimyzuka.7051:

Candar.8140:

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons

Yes, unique because whether you win or lose, you leave raging.

Nonsense! Makes no sense, provide evidence for your assertion.

Games are played for fun.
Allot of people don’t find skyhammer fun.
Sure it is something different, but so is making clothes out of sandpaper.
Unique isn’t the same thing as good.

I mean, you like the map, you like it’s specific change of pace, which is fine, but that’s not an argument as to why it should stay in the rotation.
The only argument is net enjoyment, if the vast majority of people who are playing the game find skyhammer being in the mandatory queue rotation to be a good thing… it should be in the mandatory queue rotation.

If not… then it is doing more harm than good.

Candar.8140:

Wolf.5816:

Don’t fight against the map, let the Map fight with you and you will enjoy it.

This is by far the most intelligent comment thus far, and from somebody who truly understands the art of adaptation.

Person agree…good, person disagree…bad grunts Yeah yeah, we’ve heard this song and dance before.

garethh.3518:

Candar.8140:

dimyzuka.7051:

Candar.8140:

Skyhammer is clearly unique for many reasons

Yes, unique because whether you win or lose, you leave raging.

Nonsense! Makes no sense, provide evidence for your assertion.

Games are played for fun.
Allot of people don’t find skyhammer fun.
Sure it is something different, but so is making clothes out of sandpaper.
Unique isn’t the same thing as good.

I mean, you like the map, you like it’s specific change of pace, which is fine, but that’s not an argument as to why it should stay in the rotation.
The only argument is net enjoyment, if the vast majority of people who are playing the game enjoy the map… then it’s fine… it can be in the mandatory queue rotation.

If not… then it is doing more harm than good.

“I mean, you like the map, you like it’s specific change of pace, which is fine, but that’s not an argument as to why it should stay in the rotation.”

Of course it is. It is a perfectly good reason to keep it in rotation, because it challenges players from a totally different perspective when compared to other maps. But to remove it from rotation because people complaining about being shunted off the edge is definately a weak position to hold in favour of removing it. One person has already used the word “overpowered” in reference to some classes being able utilitise CC and thus leveraging the map’s hazards; however, someone else has offered techniques to minimise risk of being shunted off, but using the map to his advantage. Just because the map encourages people to think differently about the game play, doesn’t mean it should be removed from rotation. In fact, thinking outside the box is what this game is all about, surely!

Moving onto popularity, what is required is real emperical evidence that indicates that the map is unworthy. I am not talking about some straw pole on the forums, but real scientific evidence to prove the Skyhammer should be removed from the game due to lack of popularity.

In anycase, I and others still feel it is great map with some interesting qualities.

Uh, polling IS the scientific means by which popular opinion is assessed. Internet polls have flaws, but what alternative is there? Mass mind reading?

The disdain for Skyhammer is so widespread as to be obvious at this point. You’re standing soaking wet in a puddle with thunder and lightning crashing overhead, demanding scientific proof that it’s raining.

What do people find so “bad” about Skyhammer exactly? Sure I guess it would make sense to be able to dodge roll the Cannon but that’s just a personal opinion. Honestly, having played only sPvP since launch, out of all the maps and map mechanics I feel Spirit Watch has more flaws than Skyhammer. Although Spirit Watch’s flaws are primarily from Profession specific bugs or mechanics.

Skyhammer has an abundance of walls and ledges for line of sight. It is a very competitive level for high-end play which can seem overwhelming to newer players who have not quite mastered the art of Guerrilla Warfare. This means it is much more difficult to spam abilities to the same effect as more open fields/maps this coupled with the various traps could absolutely be a daunting prospect for inexperienced or uncompetitive players.

Perhaps if they made falling from Skyhammer not fatal with a teleporter at the base of the level that could port you back to your respective spawn. But the worms at the bottom could be redesigned to instead inflict a non-removable Cripple. This would actually be Worse for the players that fall off than the current death system because it would cause a delay until they could return to cap points. But perhaps be less frustrating to inexperienced or short tempered players.

-shrug-

@Candar.8140

Ok, I’m gonna try to put this as lightly as possible.

You are saying, you won’t accept polls as a show of anything and that there is literally nothing in favor of you being right… so you take that as a show of your point being in the right of things???

I mean, ugh.
At best you can squeeze a ‘we need more of a legitimate sampling to see if skyhammer should go or not’ out of that but not… no way in hell a ‘skyhammer should stay’.

The whole ‘interesting+ challenging players’ deal.
Challenging players… i mean there is nothing wrong with that… but you don’t force players into challenges they don’t enjoy and never will enjoy or rise to face. People have been forced into skyhammer for months now, and are they finding once hidden joys in the map? are they finding the challenge of skyhammer more and more worth facing??

It’s the wrong way of going about it, if the map was able to be chosen, if you could choose to queue for specifically skyhammer instead of being randomly forced into it… it might get some popularity… but not like this… it’s too different, the map requires completely different specs and a completely different mindset, chucking players randomly into that will cause allot of frustration.

I mean, at best I guess you can say ‘you are wrong, people could be loving the map’ and sure, they could, but you have no idea if that is the case, literally none at all… I have seen mass amounts of QQ left and right, consistently over months and months by many different people and polls voting majorly against the map… nothing in favor…

So how can you say that there is a reason strong enough to keep it required in the soloQ queue?

Tell me, how am I supposed to avoid stealth pull on glass (even if I use stunbreak, I still fall) as a Necromancer with no reliable access to Stability (30 DS won’t break the pull) and I’ll give you a cookie.

@Wolf.5816

Skyhammer is a vastly different playstyle than every other map.

The whole point is that it’s a map people tend to have to be in a certain mindset and/or playing a certain kind of spec to get worthwhile enjoyment out of… and forcing everyone randomly into that sort of situation will only cause many, many people to grow to resent it.

If there was a legitimate queue’ing mechanic where people could queue up for the maps they want at that moment… then it’d be fine, it’d be good.
Allot of people would actually come out saying skyhammer is good.

garethh.3518:

Wolf.5816:

What do people find so “bad” about Skyhammer exactly? Sure I guess it would make sense to be able to dodge roll the Cannon but that’s just a personal opinion. Honestly, having played only sPvP since launch, out of all the maps and map mechanics I feel Spirit Watch has more flaws than Skyhammer. Although Spirit Watch’s flaws are primarily from Profession specific bugs or mechanics.

Skyhammer has an abundance of walls and ledges for line of sight. It is a very competitive level for high-end play which can seem overwhelming to newer players who have not quite mastered the art of Guerrilla Warfare. This means it is much more difficult to spam abilities to the same effect as more open fields/maps this coupled with the various traps could absolutely be a daunting prospect for inexperienced or uncompetitive players.

Perhaps if they made falling from Skyhammer not fatal with a teleporter at the base of the level that could port you back to your respective spawn. But the worms at the bottom could be redesigned to instead inflict a non-removable Cripple. This would actually be Worse for the players that fall off than the current death system because it would cause a delay until they could return to cap points. But perhaps be less frustrating to inexperienced or short tempered players.

-shrug-

Skyhammer is a vastly different playstyle than every other map.
Forcing people, when they don’t want to, to play something so hectic only causes frustration.

If there was a legitimate queue’ing mechanic where people could queue up for the maps they want at that moment… then it’d be fine, it’d be good.
Allot of people would actually come out saying skyhammer is good.

The whole point is that it’s a map you have to be in a certain mindset and play a certain kind of spec to get the most enjoyment out of… and forcing everyone randomly into that sort of situation will only cause many, many people to grow to resent it.

Skyhammer is a mini-game. When you log into the map, you should automatically become an engineer.

Can’t argue with that logic. In fact, I agree but isn’t that why they made custom arenas?

And in competitive tournament like modes, They don’t want players to know about the up coming map specifically so that you wont change your profession/build for each map. At least that was from my understanding.

In hot joins, where there is a lot of map hate, the maps are actually on a reliable/predictable rotation..
And though, not necessarily a fix but a band-aid would be to simply spectate/change servers to avoid playing the map you are not particularly in the mood for?

Me personally, I force my self to play maps or areas within that I find the most difficult in the off chance I must play there in my tournament matches. Being “dead weight” is something I don’t let happen.

All this being said, Custom arenas could definitely use some additional options for sure. Anything to ease new and old players into PvP in a comfortable seamless manner.

@Wolf.5816:

Custom arenas were a flop.
They were made with the intention of being the ‘everything but competitive queue’ but ended up being nothing but zergy shenanigans.

So I don’t think your solution is the best way to go with it.
How TPvP and custom arenas are setup, they end up being two different game modes. SPvP is extremely random/shenanigans/zergy while TPvP is more organized and based on an MMR.

So something like ‘if you do not like skyhammer, do not soloQ’ seems a bit off, there are many players who like the more organized and MMR matched nature of TPvP, kicking them in the pants because of one map… ehh.

There has to be a better way.
The way I see it, replacing TPvP with the queue system of every other MMO, choose the maps you are willing to play and queue up, would work far better because let’s face it… the game is far from competitive, a competitive map rotation queue is the last thing GW2 needs.

I mean if the game has the population, sure, Anet can keep around the tournament system (in addition to the queue I just suggested) and tag on a rank 20~ requirement to do matches in it (that’d make it competitive).

garethh.3518:

@Candar.8140

Ok, I’m gonna try to put this as lightly as possible.

You are saying, you won’t accept polls as a show of anything and that there is literally nothing in favor of you being right… so you take that as a show of your point being in the right of things???

I mean, ugh.
At best you can squeeze a ‘we need more of a legitimate sampling to see if skyhammer should go or not’ out of that but not… no way in hell a ‘skyhammer should stay’.

The whole ‘interesting+ challenging players’ deal.
Challenging players… i mean there is nothing wrong with that… but you don’t force players into challenges they don’t enjoy and never will enjoy or rise to face.

People have been forced into skyhammer for months now, and are they finding once hidden joys in the map? are they finding the challenge of skyhammer more and more worth facing??

There has to be some end goal something beneficial in the equation and so far forcing skyhammer on everyone has been very controversial and caused, in all likelihood, many kittened off players. Keeping things as is won’t change that… so I mean, at best I guess you can say ‘people could be loving the map’ and sure, they could, but you have no idea if that is the case, literally none at all… I have seen mass amounts of QQ left and right and polls voting majorly against the map… nothing in favor…

So how can you say that there is a reason strong enough to keep it required in the soloQ queue?

“Ok, I’m gonna try to put this as lightly as possible.”

I am not sure what you mean by this, but quite frankly, it is of little consequence to me whether you are harsh or not, but let’s both hope you are not trying to be patronising.

Straw polls can be beneficial, but many of the ones I have seen already on the forums are highly questionable. Here are the problems:

• Not all players use the forums

• You have to pose the questions in such a way as to not to mislead or skew the results.

• Is the number of voters is representative of the player base. If so, which regions or is this a global phenomenon? 337 (arbitrary number) out of player base of tens of thousands is not representative, but on a forum thread, it could appear to be “most” people, which is a false impression.

• Furthermore, it is possible for those who do not vote at all may indeed like the map and may believe it is not worth voting because they are already satisified. This can also mislead interpretation of the poll.

And given some of flaws I have highlighted above, I put it to you that all you have is a perception of an angry mob that may not be representative due to a half-baked, unscientific poll put together by the angry mob in the first place.

So what would be a good idea is offer a compulsary, neutral poll in-game, just before the game starts, to help gaurantee good sample of players that could be representative of peoples’ opinion.

Setting up such fair polls is not as easy as some are lead to believe.

The OP is trolling … im 100% sure.

He keeps tieing mastering the mechanics of this map with our enjoyment. But if if i dont enjoy doing something…being really good at it doesnt change anything. It just means i stop playing it and switch to a game i do enjoy playing.

To name an example. Im absurdly good at playing wow. Have 8 classes with 2300-2600 experience. But i dont enjoy playing it eventhough i mastered it.

Matering something =/= enjoying it.

@Candar.8140

Ok slow down, you’ve just jumping away from the whole argument of the thread to not-plausible details on a solution.
(that’s kinda backwards)

So do you still strongly think skyhammer should be in the mandatory soloQ? or that we need a better grasp of proportions (is it really a small angry mob or more) before we can decide?

Pyriall.5027:

Skyhammer is a mini-game. When you log into the map, you should automatically become an engineer.

Hah.
Hahaha
That would totally work too.

One of the main reasons why GW2 pvp flopped is lack of combat depth. A lot of classes lack proper rotations for example. Or single abbilities have such an enormous impact that those rotations arent required to be succesfull. To name an example: if i play on condi warrior i can kill ppl with two ranged poorly telegraphed instants.

This isnt the type of gameplay that will attract a good long term pvp playerbase.

Skyhammer adds extra mechanics like this. Its synonymous to GW2 flopping as pvp game.

garethh.3518:

@Candar.8140

Ok slow down, you’ve just jumping away from the whole argument of the thread to details on a solution.
(that’s kinda backwards)

So do you still strongly think skyhammer should be in the mandatory soloQ? or that we need a better grasp of proportions (is it really a small angry mob or more) before we can decide?

I have not changed my position on my original argument. However, I believe that there is an anti-Skyahmmer community that are inadvertantly demonising it as result of months of frustration that really lies elsewhere in the game.

As regards to me going “backwards”, I was replying to the comment “You are saying, you won’t accept polls as a show of anything and that there is literally nothing in favor of you being right… so you take that as a show of your point being in the right of things???”

I was simply proposing a solution for a more accurate poll — that is all.

Locuz —- I am not trolling at all, and can choose to believe that or not sigh.

I wish I could play a match in skyhammer against you, let’s see how entusiast you are about adapting after a whole match being cc’d to oblivion.

Candar.8140:

I believe that there is an anti-Skyahmmer community that are inadvertantly demonising it as result of months of frustration that really lies elsewhere in the game.

One of the main reasons why GW2 pvp flopped is lack of combat depth. A lot of classes lack proper rotations for example. Or single abbilities have such an enormous impact that those rotations arent required to be succesfull. To name an example: if i play on condi warrior i can kill ppl with two ranged poorly telegraphed instants.

This isnt the type of gameplay that will attract a good long term pvp playerbase.

Skyhammer adds extra mechanics like this. Its synonymous to GW2 flopping as pvp game.

Candar.8140:

• Is the number of voters is representative of the player base. If so, which regions or is this a global phenomenon? 337 (arbitrary number) out of player base of tens of thousands is not representative,

300 votes after a day in community that is as small as GW2s pvp community is a really substantial number.

Lachanche.6859:

I wish I could play a match in skyhammer against you, let’s see how entusiast you are about adapting after a whole match being cc’d to oblivion.

I have indeed been CC’d to oblivion on many occassions not only on Skyhammer but many other maps, and I have managed to handle those situations fairly well, but I get the impression you feel that enthusiasm for the adaptation would diminish somewhat if were to play against you? Well, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself…That doesn’t even deserve a response.

Locuz.2651:

Candar.8140:

I believe that there is an anti-Skyahmmer community that are inadvertantly demonising it as result of months of frustration that really lies elsewhere in the game.

One of the main reasons why GW2 pvp flopped is lack of combat depth. A lot of classes lack proper rotations for example. Or single abbilities have such an enormous impact that those rotations arent required to be succesfull. To name an example: if i play on condi warrior i can kill ppl with two ranged poorly telegraphed instants.

This isnt the type of gameplay that will attract a good long term pvp playerbase.

Skyhammer adds extra mechanics like this. Its synonymous to GW2 flopping as pvp game.

Candar.8140:

• Is the number of voters is representative of the player base. If so, which regions or is this a global phenomenon? 337 (arbitrary number) out of player base of tens of thousands is not representative,

300 votes after a day in community that is as small as GW2s pvp community is a really substantial number.

On the issue of playerbase sample, my point exactly!

@Candar.8140

I said it was backwards because it was all you addressed, your post completely ignored any and all talk about your original argument and went entirely into ‘the perfect poll’.

Anyways, in part?
Most everyone would be fine with skyhammer where it is and as it is if the rest of the game was good.
Most everyone would be happy with skyhammer if it wasn’t randomly, unavoidably thrown in their faces.

So sure, you’re right, allot of skyhammer hate is caused by general game issues….
Which means, there are game issues surrounding skyhammer, and they should be addressed, no?

I’m not saying skyhammer is a bad map, just that the easiest way to fix the problem is to move it out of a mandatory soloQ rotation (two ways to do that, make soloQ not a mandatory rotation, or just dump skyhammer out of soloQ)
Like I went into a lil more a few posts back to Wolf…
Skyhammer is a workable map. Skyhammer can have a place in GW2 and improve the experience, just not in a mandatory soloQ rotation.
It is not a TPvP random-Q style map, it causes allot of frustration and hate in a queue format like that.

Candar.8140:

On the issue of playerbase sample, my point exactly!

After the leaderboard reset, only 600?, 800? accounts logged on in NA and played TPvP over the week~
If I remember right.

The GW2 TPvP population isn’t all that massive.

You can’t possible be serious..

alright i don’t know why but i can’t see this discussion anymore and i still didn’t have the chance to fix my last message so here we go hoping that this time it will be readable

I have indeed been CC’d to oblivion on many occassions not only on Skyhammer but many other maps, and I have managed to handle those situations fairly well,

I am strongly positive that you have been cc’d to lesser extents than what i am referring to.

but I get the impression you feel that my enthusiasm for the adaptation would diminish somewhat if were to play against you?

I am of the opinion that you wouldn’t be so cheerish about a map that promotes knocking down players if you had spent a whole match or two being knocked down from such map, as in “combustible lemons are awesome, although i never tried one”.
I also believe that i could give you a pretty good idea of how rough skyhammer can be.

Well, you have an incredibly high opinion of yourself…That doesn’t even deserve a response.

Which is fun since that’s what you just did.

Personally I just love skyhammer. I’m really glad every time I get it in soloQ. It’s a map with a sense of humor
It’s the only map in which 1 player can carry his whole team.
I think it’s a great map for spicing things up and just having fun.
However, I know that a lot of people dislike this map, and that’s why I vote for getting it out of the soloQ maps.
Honestly my most favorite map by far is Capricorn (cannon ftw!) but it wouldn’t make much sense doing tournaments in it, aquatic combat is not balanced.
In the same way Skyhammer isn’t balanced, with CC being the most important aspect.
It would be great just having Skyhammer in hotjoin, still fun, no one will cry