Guild Wars 2

That thing really surprised me and now im trying to understand how is that even possible.

I smell fried Reaper, my stomach is hungry

Maybe you should try Marauder amulet?

That log suggests Chilled averaged 653 damage per tick. That’s right about par for a condi-based Necro. I’m actually a bit confused how you had 48 ticks of Burning throughout the fight if you just fought a single Reaper Necro, but it suggests the fight lasted, at least, 48 seconds (if you were constantly burning the entire fight, though the avg burning damage is about 349, so you only had 1 – 2 stacks throughout on avg). Also, you only averaged 1 – 2 stacks of Bleeding for the entire fight as well, since the avg damage for bleed ticks was about 173.

Does any of that seem strange to you, beyond the new fact that Chilled does damage? At the end of the day, Chilled damage from a Reaper helped kill you over the course of 50 seconds, and without that damage, you would have taken roughly (looks like poison damage is below bleeds, which strikes me as odd unless the Reaper missed a bunch of RS #4s) 30,416 damage over 50 seconds, or only 608 average damage per second. That’s assuming you were burning for an entire fight.

The more people post screenshots, the more it looks like Chilled is the only thing helping Condi Reaper be anything at all. And the more I think the damage breakdown is broken.

Chill doesn’t hit as hard as burn. It is a massive problem, however, since necros can apply it so easily and stack cover condis making it hard to cleanse. I expect it to be nerfed at some point.

OP, make a favor to yourself and others – go read some guides regarding how conditions work.

Because if 653 damage per tick is a lot for you then I suggest stop pvping.

This thing would take like 10 mins to kill an afk Warrior with Healing Signet.

Tao.1234:

OP, make a favor to yourself and others – go read some guides regarding how conditions work.

Because if 653 damage per tick is a lot for you then I suggest stop pvping.

This thing would take like 10 mins to kill an afk Warrior with Healing Signet.

Chill affect skill recharge to so having DoT plus antiskill effect is a big thing. 2 in 1.

Not to mention the mobility reduction u.u makes landing all those other condi applications that much easier.

Honestly I have noticed chill being one of hte last thigns my condi cleanes tends to target. Just because from what I can tell the way a reaper applies condis applies serveral cover conditions for it. Thats probably why the chill dmg was so high. Once its on you. Getting it off while the reapers still attack you is nearly impossible.

This wouldnt be to big a problem. But every time you burn a cleanse that DOESN’T remove chill, your probably not getting that cleanse back because of how chill works.

It’s strong being able to have Chilled do damage. But is it OP? Where is the line between strong and OP? If a Necro focuses all of their sigils, runes, triats, and strategy around Chill uptime, they’re rewarded with a steady ~650 damage per second, along with affecting the cooldowns of other classes. That sounds like attrition to me, and attrition is something that I don’t really think has been in the game yet.

Saying “it adds damage to a condition that slows movement and cooldown” tells everyone what it is. That doesn’t help in a conversation trying to determine if it is too strong.

Cogbyrn.7283:

It’s strong being able to have Chilled do damage. But is it OP? Where is the line between strong and OP? If a Necro focuses all of their sigils, runes, triats, and strategy around Chill uptime, they’re rewarded with a steady ~650 damage per second, along with affecting the cooldowns of other classes. That sounds like attrition to me, and attrition is something that I don’t really think has been in the game yet.

Saying “it adds damage to a condition that slows movement and cooldown” tells everyone what it is. That doesn’t help in a conversation trying to determine if it is too strong.

Im not saying its OP by any means. But its definitely not “fun” to fight. Its more a question of if your build can simply handle it. If it can and you get hit by the chill and cover conditions you can deal. If you can’t and you get hit by that combo your dead. You simply will not be able to disengage without losing a cooldown you probably won’t get back before the reaper catches up and kills you. While all the while watching your health tick lower and lower.

I won’t say its OP. But its incredibly Oppressive. Now that is DEFINITELY the way it was designed to feel. But for many of us on the receiving end. It’s difficult for us to enjoy the fight. Where even if we lose to other builds we can get some fun out of it.

In every match where I face reapers all of my deaths are from chilled as top damage, 25k 30k even 50k I’ve seen.

But DH is op right, reaper is oki.

Elxdark.9702:

In every match I face reapers all of my deaths are from chilled as top damage, 25k 30k even 50k I’ve seen.

But DH is op right, reaper is oki.

Atleast they aren’t as boring to fight as full bunker druid. Its the only thing ive seen where my 25 stacks of might and permafury just aren’t enough to get them below 60%

Shadelang.3012:

Elxdark.9702:

In every match I face reapers all of my deaths are from chilled as top damage, 25k 30k even 50k I’ve seen.

But DH is op right, reaper is oki.

Atleast they aren’t as boring to fight as full bunker druid. Its the only thing ive seen where my 25 stacks of might and permafury just aren’t enough to get them below 60%

Usualy Clerics with 25 Might and permafury doesn’t do much dmg ;-)

Shadelang.3012:

Elxdark.9702:

In every match I face reapers all of my deaths are from chilled as top damage, 25k 30k even 50k I’ve seen.

But DH is op right, reaper is oki.

Atleast they aren’t as boring to fight as full bunker druid. Its the only thing ive seen where my 25 stacks of might and permafury just aren’t enough to get them below 60%

I’ve seen nos killing bunker druids on MINSTREL’S with his condi build.
So all you need is a reaper.

And it isn’t boring, it is disgusting to fight vs perma chill and 50k hp.

Shadelang.3012:

Cogbyrn.7283:

It’s strong being able to have Chilled do damage. But is it OP? Where is the line between strong and OP? If a Necro focuses all of their sigils, runes, triats, and strategy around Chill uptime, they’re rewarded with a steady ~650 damage per second, along with affecting the cooldowns of other classes. That sounds like attrition to me, and attrition is something that I don’t really think has been in the game yet.

Saying “it adds damage to a condition that slows movement and cooldown” tells everyone what it is. That doesn’t help in a conversation trying to determine if it is too strong.

Im not saying its OP by any means. But its definitely not “fun” to fight. Its more a question of if your build can simply handle it. If it can and you get hit by the chill and cover conditions you can deal. If you can’t and you get hit by that combo your dead. You simply will not be able to disengage without losing a cooldown you probably won’t get back before the reaper catches up and kills you. While all the while watching your health tick lower and lower.

I won’t say its OP. But its incredibly Oppressive. Now that is DEFINITELY the way it was designed to feel. But for many of us on the receiving end. It’s difficult for us to enjoy the fight. Where even if we lose to other builds we can get some fun out of it.

That’s fair. I will say though, at least in my opinion, it’s often the case in 1v1 where it’s a matter of if your build can handle what the other person is doing. Are they maxing on boons and I didn’t bring corruption? I’m going to have a difficult time. Does someone max on boons and get totally corrupted, so they can’t handle it? They’re going to have a difficult time. Am I packing only slow attacks, so blind/stealth spam get the better of me? I’m going to have a difficult time. Is the stealth build built to handle conditions to keep themselves up even while in stealth after I stack up some condis? They might have a difficult time.

So this is no different, really. Whether or not a fight is fun is also a bit malleable, but feeling helpless is a general theme of something not feeling “fun”. I personally think stealth isn’t fun to fight against in this game, and when Mesmers spam evasions, blocks, rotate stealth, come back with aegis, that also hasn’t been fun to me for months and months. However, I was also not really built properly to fight builds like that, so a lot of the fault was mine.

At the end of the day, I’m going to be curious how well Deathly Chill holds up in a team environment with AoE clears going off. Is it still going to be consistent pressure?

Also, if Deathly Chill wasn’t around to do much damage, would anyone feel threatened by a Condi Reaper? Or is Chill the foundation that allows a Condi Reaper to maintain some level of pressure while clears are flying around, wiping bleed/burning/poison stacks?

I do understand it can be frustrating to fight against, but I’m leaning towards it being good for the game to have “too many” things to worry about when defining your build. You build with weaknesses in mind that you feel you can plug with teamplay/fight approach. You might have a susceptibility to Chill, but be very strong against many/most other things. In that case, having one class that can really exploit that weakness keeps the meta open for flexibility, in my opinion.

How much damage would it have to do for people to say “This is fine”?

Ragnarox.9601:

Tao.1234:

OP, make a favor to yourself and others – go read some guides regarding how conditions work.

Because if 653 damage per tick is a lot for you then I suggest stop pvping.

This thing would take like 10 mins to kill an afk Warrior with Healing Signet.

Chill affect skill recharge to so having DoT plus antiskill effect is a big thing. 2 in 1.

Yeah?
Perhaps there is a reason why accessibility isn’t that good and duration is low.

Plus it doesn’t stack, and only source to increase damage is to only gain Might and keep Vulnerability stacks on target.

Already did note it in previous thread.

Max Might + max Vulnerability makes it tick for ~950 per second.

In order to keep up with low duration and condition cleanses, you need to give up on survivability.

Keeping a max Might without being in Reaper Shroud pretty often + striking a Chilled target is impossible.

To keep up with high Vulnerability stack on Target, you need Greatsword which is also a source of 2 chills – so GS is a must.

What’s left in 2nd hand?

Staff or Scepter/Focus.

If you choose Staff – you have pretty much assured AoE Chill.

From Utility you need Suffer, Plague Signet and Signet of Locust(unless you’ll go for Spectral Wall for Chill effect on Fear).

But here’s a question.

Will you be able to kill in 1v1 or 2v1 a decent player?

Especially given that your only damaging condition is Chill?

I’ll tell you what.

Cryomancer looks cool, and can be useful.

I see potential in big group clashes as in WvW.

Perhaps in Group clash on a single point where you’re not focused.

But Necro not focused? – not happening.

That Necro build has 0 defenses and due to low mobility, anything that can put a bit of pressure will down it in no time.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, if Deathly Chill wasn’t around to do much damage, would anyone feel threatened by a Condi Reaper?

Nope, but thats only because Condi Necro (read: Terrormancer) got annihilated by Trait line changes and Curses got rendered useless for its main purpose (making Condi viable option). The saddest thing is that Condi Reapers play without Condi trait line (Curses) because its so bad.

As I’ve said once. I would buff Curses slightly and probably move Deathly Chill there (or remove it completly and buff Curses more than slightly), move Dhumfire into Reaper from Soul Reaping (because Dhumfire works only good with Reaper fast auto attacks and its completly useless with core Necro).

Burtnik.5218:

That thing really surprised me and now im trying to understand how is that even possible.

How do you guys access this breakdown??

you used condi clear on burn and got rekt by chill,you don t need to understand anything else.

vlad.4871:

you used condi clear on burn and got rekt by chill,you don t need to understand anything else.

Hello, i dont have condition cleanse at all thanks to Roy <3 So no, i wasnt able to cleanse burn, howered i cleansed chill a few times.

Tao.1234:

Perhaps there is a reason why accessibility isn’t that good and duration is low.

Reaper accessibility to chill:
- sigil of ice (on hit) (2s duration)
- sigil of hydromancy (2s duration)
- chill of death trait (5s duration)
- spinal shivers (5s duration)
- chilling Nova (2s duration)
- shivers of dread (3s duration)
- executioners scythe (1.5s duration)
- Infusing terror (3s duration)
- chilled to the bone (8s duration)
- chilblains (4s duration)
- reapers mark (3s duration)
- rune of grenth, 3s chill when hit
- rune of grenth, 3s chill during heal

Rune of grenth and cold shoulder combined are +50% chill duration, so there seems to be overwhelming evidence that contradicts your claim….

So if a Reaper throws everything at keeping you chilled, from gear to traits, they have a lot of chill access. Are you throwing your entire build at countering condis/chilled? If not, then it’s a vulnerability in your build, and you’ll have to outplay it. If so, and you’re still having a lot of trouble, then the plot thickens.

Personally, I’m running Melandru + Relentless Pursuit on my Power Reaper for -58% chill duration outside of shroud, -91% chilled duration inside shroud. I also tend to bring 2x condi clearing utilities at a minimum, and I’m traited with Shrouded Removal to help keep condis at a minimum.

If you kite a Reaper while in shroud, the Reaper can’t apply Chill to you at all. Try to time your clear when the Reaper hits Shroud, and you buy some breathing room. When the Reaper leaves Shroud, odds are (s)he is going to try to re-apply chill, so prime your dodge for the Chilblains. Spinal Shivers is probably not going to happen since it requires Focus OH, so from a weapons perspective, you’re really just looking out for weapon swaps, Chilblains, Chilled to the Bone, and Reaper’s Mark.

Get a feel for it and I bet you can manage. Also keep in mind that it shouldn’t be easy to fight. No class should be easy to fight.

Cogbyrn.7283:

So if a Reaper throws everything at keeping you chilled, from gear to traits, they have a lot of chill access. Are you throwing your entire build at countering condis/chilled? If not, then it’s a vulnerability in your build, and you’ll have to outplay it. If so, and you’re still having a lot of trouble, then the plot thickens.

Personally, I’m running Melandru + Relentless Pursuit on my Power Reaper for -58% chill duration outside of shroud, -91% chilled duration inside shroud. I also tend to bring 2x condi clearing utilities at a minimum, and I’m traited with Shrouded Removal to help keep condis at a minimum.

If you kite a Reaper while in shroud, the Reaper can’t apply Chill to you at all. Try to time your clear when the Reaper hits Shroud, and you buy some breathing room. When the Reaper leaves Shroud, odds are (s)he is going to try to re-apply chill, so prime your dodge for the Chilblains. Spinal Shivers is probably not going to happen since it requires Focus OH, so from a weapons perspective, you’re really just looking out for weapon swaps, Chilblains, Chilled to the Bone, and Reaper’s Mark.

Get a feel for it and I bet you can manage. Also keep in mind that it shouldn’t be easy to fight. No class should be easy to fight.

Sure thing let me just go base my entire build around countering one condition that only does damage on one class with one trait.

I’m sure it has been answered, but I’m lazy so I’ll just repeat what I’m sure has been said.

Chill doesn’t stack and generally has less application. Necromancer’s burn is died to 1 move while in shroud only. A Necromancer’s Chill damage will out-damage their burning potential easily, but it still can never spike or overwhelm someone in the same manner as burning, simply because it does not stack in intensity. It’s basically old burning 2.0.

ronpierce.2760:

I’m sure it has been answered, but I’m lazy so I’ll just repeat what I’m sure has been said.

Chill doesn’t stack and generally has less application. Necromancer’s burn is died to 1 move while in shroud only. A Necromancer’s Chill damage will out-damage their burning potential easily, but it still can never spike or overwhelm someone in the same manner as burning, simply because it does not stack in intensity. It’s basically old burning 2.0.

Problem is old burning didn’t have vulnerability and 66% movement and cooldown reduction and was nerfed when they had less than 50% uptime of it. Plus they get new burning spammed on every fast basic attack.

glaphen.5230:

ronpierce.2760:

I’m sure it has been answered, but I’m lazy so I’ll just repeat what I’m sure has been said.

Chill doesn’t stack and generally has less application. Necromancer’s burn is died to 1 move while in shroud only. A Necromancer’s Chill damage will out-damage their burning potential easily, but it still can never spike or overwhelm someone in the same manner as burning, simply because it does not stack in intensity. It’s basically old burning 2.0.

Problem is old burning didn’t have vulnerability and 66% movement and cooldown reduction and was nerfed when they had less than 50% uptime of it. Plus they get new burning spammed on every fast basic attack.

I’m not necessarily discussing its coefficient potency or how balanced up-time is (though, I do know people are generally terrible about running cleanses and knowing when to use them, but I’ll save that for a different conversation). My point is, Chill’s damage is being misrepresented here. It does not have the capability to out-pressure burning because burning can stack, and other classes simply stack it better. All this screen shot proves is that Necromancer’s chill out-damages their own burning capabilities, which are not that amazing anyways, unless you are somehow left to spam RS auto-attack uncontested for the entire fight. Therefore, saying “I thought burning was bad” and linking an example of chill being higher on the damage for a death means absolutely nothing. You will never see chill ticking for 3k, or 4k, which means, no matter what, you always had more time to react to it being on you before it killed you, unlike a well stacked burn from another class.

glaphen.5230:

Cogbyrn.7283:

So if a Reaper throws everything at keeping you chilled, from gear to traits, they have a lot of chill access. Are you throwing your entire build at countering condis/chilled? If not, then it’s a vulnerability in your build, and you’ll have to outplay it. If so, and you’re still having a lot of trouble, then the plot thickens.

Personally, I’m running Melandru + Relentless Pursuit on my Power Reaper for -58% chill duration outside of shroud, -91% chilled duration inside shroud. I also tend to bring 2x condi clearing utilities at a minimum, and I’m traited with Shrouded Removal to help keep condis at a minimum.

If you kite a Reaper while in shroud, the Reaper can’t apply Chill to you at all. Try to time your clear when the Reaper hits Shroud, and you buy some breathing room. When the Reaper leaves Shroud, odds are (s)he is going to try to re-apply chill, so prime your dodge for the Chilblains. Spinal Shivers is probably not going to happen since it requires Focus OH, so from a weapons perspective, you’re really just looking out for weapon swaps, Chilblains, Chilled to the Bone, and Reaper’s Mark.

Get a feel for it and I bet you can manage. Also keep in mind that it shouldn’t be easy to fight. No class should be easy to fight.

Sure thing let me just go base my entire build around countering one condition that only does damage on one class with one trait.

Technically, the traits and gear you utilize to counter it are also good for generally managing condis. And for me, the reduction on cripple/immob as well is amazing.

Regardless, are you saying your build should naturally not be vulnerable to someone who stacks all of their chips into the Chill basket, when they can’t even stack Chill itself in intensity? You have all the time in the world to react to Chill, because it’s slowly ticking you down.

Maybe that’s the key. People don’t get that burst of irritation when suddenly dying, they get that building frustration as the fight goes on, but they don’t know what to do or when to do it. They don’t feel they can escape, and they don’t feel they can kill the Reaper back.

My god. It’s just like ANet had in mind for the design. Just like how it’s irritating when Thieves constantly blind/stealth, Warriors go immune to condis and get right up in your face, Guardians blind/burn/block everything, etc. etc.

My question remains: how much damage are you expecting Chill to do with the trait for it to not feel like a problem? General question for the audience. My gut is telling me that it has to be some inconsequential amount so the player can go back to basically ignoring Condi Necros in general as a threat, especially in a team environment.

Also, every screenshot I’ve seen of a damage breakdown has been highly suspect.

Tao.1234:

OP, make a favor to yourself and others – go read some guides regarding how conditions work.

Because if 653 damage per tick is a lot for you then I suggest stop pvping.

This thing would take like 10 mins to kill an afk Warrior with Healing Signet.

Sure maybe not a lot of damage for a damaging condi, but the thing is chill also slows you and increases cool-downs…

What the hell is happening to this game… chill does damage now? Confusion has damage ticks?

remember when conditions were unique?

Almost all classes have traits and abilities that instantly remove or reduce chill specifically and passively. Daredevils can remove chill on evade, etc.

Chill revolves around active gameplay. It is strong and decent damage but not imbalanced.

zone.1073:

Almost all classes have traits and abilities that instantly remove or reduce chill specifically. Daredevils can remove chill on evade, etc.

Uhh they work on any movement impairment and as I said in the other thread they aren’t worth taking on anything but Elementalist possibly, DD is pretty much immune to movement impairments with the mobility dodge and Chrono gets 25% from a minor.

HOW do i see the breakdown of all this individual damage from conditions? Anyone pls?

Here’s the issue:
Chilled is a utility condition, like poison. But it has the damage akin to burning of the old system, back when it stacked duration. However, Chilled damage should be more similar to poison in the old system.

Old Burning: 328 (0.25)
Chilled 202 (0.3)
Old Poison 84 (0.1)

It also wouldn’t hurt to reduce Sigil of Geomancy to 2 stacks from 3, so that it has similar numbers to power damage sigils.

I don’t think ‘does chill do OP damage for a condition?’ is the way to look at it. More like: is it OP damage for a grandmaster trait?

Photinous.4628:

Tao.1234:

Perhaps there is a reason why accessibility isn’t that good and duration is low.

Reaper accessibility to chill:
- sigil of ice (on hit) (2s duration)
- sigil of hydromancy (2s duration)
- chill of death trait (5s duration)
- spinal shivers (5s duration)
- chilling Nova (2s duration)
- shivers of dread (3s duration)
- executioners scythe (1.5s duration)
- Infusing terror (3s duration)
- chilled to the bone (8s duration)
- chilblains (4s duration)
- reapers mark (3s duration)
- rune of grenth, 3s chill when hit
- rune of grenth, 3s chill during heal

Rune of grenth and cold shoulder combined are +50% chill duration, so there seems to be overwhelming evidence that contradicts your claim….

You can’t have all of them at once, and some of them are Fear dependent which doesn’t trigger vs target with stability.

Doesn’t change the fact that you’ll be stomped before that Chill will bring someone to downed state.

Sure maybe not a lot of damage for a damaging condi, but the thing is chill also slows you and increases cool-downs…

Yes it does. But you will feel it when this thing will be constantly spammed on you.
if you’ll dodge couple of them, or cleanse fast enough, then your cd increase will be by around ~2sec.

And here is a question – do you really expect anyone to just stand and eat every single chill skill you throw?
And even when they eat it, do you expect them to not cleanse it?

btw – Executioner’s Scythe chill requires target to stand in Chill field to have constantly applied Chill – without it, it disappears in like 0.5 sec.

Mitch.4781:

HOW do i see the breakdown of all this individual damage from conditions? Anyone pls?

Click the button while you’re dead.

roelvanesch.2817:

I don’t think ‘does chill do OP damage for a condition?’ is the way to look at it. More like: is it OP damage for a grandmaster trait?

Trait position no longer matters except for what it competes with for the slot. You could put all three grandmaster traits into the adept slot and it wouldn’t change anything.

The question is nothing more than, “Is the trait too strong?”