Guild Wars 2

Plz fix the system and remove the mmr from matchmaking. I have won guild teams a few times now and earned 2 pips but it cause my mmr to jump. I am now in a cycle where i now lose more matches than i win. When i win i get 2 pips and my mmr jumps and i lose the next 3 matches. Don’t give me that i checked your match history and you got a huge win streak blah blah blah bs. THAT’S NOT HOW LEAGUE WORKS!!! IF YOU GET STUCK WITH 50/50 MMR IN THE MIDDLE OF A SYSTEM THAT GIVES YOU 1 POINT FOR WINNING AND 1 FOR LOSING HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSE TO ADVANCE??? Well okay maybe if i bought a smurf account i could rise above my main account in division tiers. Clever way to make more money tho i’ll give you that.

The game matches you up the best it can. The 50/50 W/L thing is a myth made up by terrible players. It does not “try to make you lose” at any point.

Also, you’re supposed to rise by being good. You’re probably not good, deal with it.

the 50/50 w/l is very much alive there after they reworked the system a while back and sorry for being bad if i try to stop teammates running into 2v4 fights.

Didn’t have any issues getting to Ruby with my one and only account, just keep up with the meta and try your best to carry your team and it works. I lost a lot of matches queueing as a team and was camped on Emerald tier 2 for ages. I went solo and reached ruby the next day.

Have you ever noticed when you have a win streak or win a good opponents that next matches you play are total bs with hot join players?

It happened again. I won a guild team and gain 2 pips and now this is the second match in a row i lose and now i lost 2 pips.

Where is the part where the 50/50 w/l doesn’t apply?

Henrik.7560:

Didn’t have any issues getting to Ruby with my one and only account, just keep up with the meta and try your best to carry your team and it works. I lost a lot of matches queueing as a team and was camped on Emerald tier 2 for ages. I went solo and reached ruby the next day.

Emerald to ruby in a day solo? If it is true, it means your MMR was really really really low

trytonianYeti.4389:

Henrik.7560:

Didn’t have any issues getting to Ruby with my one and only account, just keep up with the meta and try your best to carry your team and it works. I lost a lot of matches queueing as a team and was camped on Emerald tier 2 for ages. I went solo and reached ruby the next day.

Emerald to ruby in a day solo? If it is true, it means your MMR was really really really low

Had 4k games before that O_O guess I was just lucky. Coincidently, my very few losses were when I just began an emerald or sapphire tier. The other losses gave me pips still.

kitten no! Hell no! kittening kitten i won a match and got 2 pips >:[[[[[[ kittening ready to lose matches again.

Ginaz.3206:

I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Nps.

I have nothing against in 50/50 w/l, but this thingie is getting a bit tiresome. Anet said that this system will courage ppl to play better when they lose. I admit it was at first but 2 days in a row vicroty victory, defeat defeat. It just makes me wanna play less. Feels like the game is just flipping me the finger.

if it’s 50/50 why can’t it be like 5 wins and 5 defeats? Hell, even 5 wins and 10 loses and it would feel more rewarding than this stuff.

And I’ve had my fair share of those games against premades as a solo queuer. Next season make ranked solo queue only and we will see who is who.

It’s a stupid system with the way MMR and divisions are disconnected. A player who played a lot of PvP and has a high MMR from before the league system was put into place will have a harder time progressing than someone who just started, because he has to start at the bottom while already being at his correct MMR.

Either they have to tie the league system to MMR, i.e. make divisions a reflection of your MMR, or they need to increase pip gain depending on your MMR. The current system is just casual-friendly bullkitten, they said we were getting a way of gauging player skill, but what we got was a glorified reward track for a legendary backpack.

Pakkazull.6894:

It’s a stupid system with the way MMR and divisions are disconnected. A player who played a lot of PvP and has a high MMR from before the league system was put into place will have a harder time progressing than someone who just started, because he has to start at the bottom while already being at his correct MMR.

Either they have to tie the league system to MMR, i.e. make divisions a reflection of your MMR, or they need to increase pip gain depending on your MMR. The current system is just casual-friendly bullkitten, they said we were getting a way of gauging player skill, but what we got was a glorified reward track for a legendary backpack.

It’s far from being casual bull kitten, at least for me, facing GNR premade against me, with trio of random guys on my side, being solo myself, loosing the game, loosing 2 pips ;d cheers.

Arcade.8901:

It’s far from being casual bull kitten

I think what he means is that if your new its easier, but if your a veteran PvPer you’ll find it much harder to progress. In your example the concern is premades vs solo player, which is also an issue.

Tbh there’s been a lot of issues in this league,

EDIT Getting back to the OP.

MMR seems to constantly flip flop you been giving you games you can win and giving you games your supposed to lose. I’d actually argue that that’s where the biggest disconnect between MMR and Leagues is.

MMR instantaneously want’s to keep you at 50% where as league wants you to have winning streaks.

If your an established player your fighting against the system rather than against other players.

I won 17 games in row yesterday I don’t see problem with matchmaking

You are getting to it don’t worry.

I don’t understand what’s the problem, granted it’s no fun being farmed by premades when all you have is soloQ, but still, gw2 pvp is ultimately team designed.

We finally have a system that makes sense and rewards being good vs non sense grinding (meaningless ranks, anybody can have it reward tracks) to show off where we actually stand skill wise.
I thought the pvp player base was dying for a system like that.

Of course it doesn’t prevent fotm farming and the overall balance leaves somewhat to be desired but hey, i see many of you recalling the good old GW1 HA days and it wasn’t so different, even worst imo.

The thing is – its not fun.
Being at one pip away from Saphire then loosing 4 tiers – due to bad team-mates you’re being expected to carry hard – its no fun.

We’ve been talking about this and the poor quality match making ANET has had in place for so long.

Something has to get fixed – soon.

PvP player base was dying for a soloq that works and for a system where teams face other teams. Not a system where premades farm pugs and there’s no way to play solo. Also if you are forming a team how can you know who you consider good enough players to invite to your team for pro league and esl? Good indication is division system but now you can only win if you have a good enough team so there’s no way of getting into one if you solo.

muscarine.5136:

I don’t understand what’s the problem, granted it’s no fun being farmed by premades when all you have is soloQ, but still, gw2 pvp is ultimately team designed.

Look, the League of Legends is ultimately team designed too, on top of it, it’s an e-sport they droll about, but it has solo Q. Because Riot in their mind.

GW2 is another story, it’s a casual game, with out complexity, and the way it evolves, it’s more and more about rotations and setups, rather then mechanical skills.

The game with the similar system is Counter-Strike, but there, it’s a different story, you actually can carry games with your mechanical skills only.

In GW2, you have 3 necroes on your side, warrior and (too make it fair) bunker mesmer. Against you premade of bunker ele, 2 bunker mesmers and 2 viper revs, now tell me you can play better then 9 other players, but system hates, luck hates you, people hates, Anet hates you, what you can do about it ? Nothing. And that sucks the most.

I actually think now that tanking mmr is the only solution for this problem since division matchmaking doesn’t mean anything unless anet removes the 50/50 w/l from the game.

I think people forget that the 50/50 is actually meant to apply to both teams and that it’s supposed to be a tossup on who will win. It’s not 60/40, it’s supposed to be 50/50, as best as it can match you, to create even and balanced matches where either side can win. That’s good, that’s exciting. But that won’t happen when it doesn’t separate Solo- and Group Queue, as grouped players has a massive advantage on completely random teams. Sure, you get dealt terrible teams sometimes, but those terrible teams can also win, so chances are the other team weren’t that great either. If it truly was meant to make you lose, then as a player who only queue solo, how can that explain the 9-10 win streak I had the the other day, with the last one even granting me two pips meaning the other team should have been favored to win.

It also doesn’t help that a premade can take one-two really low MMR players and as a result drop their total down to face (potentially) lesser skilled players (—this needs a fix, as it should check the highest MMR player(s) to factor in how much their average would be across 5 players of similar MMR, and ignore the lower MMR players completely in the calculation).

Absconditus.6804:

I think people forget that the 50/50 is actually meant to apply to both teams and that it’s supposed to be a tossup on who will win. It’s not 60/40, it’s supposed to be 50/50, as best as it can match you, to create even and balanced matches where either side can win. That’s good, that’s exciting. But that won’t happen when it doesn’t separate Solo- and Group Queue, as grouped players has a massive advantage on completely random teams.

It also doesn’t help that a premade can take one-two really low MMR players and as a result drop their total down to face (potentially) lesser skilled players (—this needs a fix, as it should check the highest MMR player(s) to factor in how much their average would be across 5 players of similar MMR, and ignore the lower MMR players completely in the calculation).

No but also the thing that this system we have now wants you to climb up tiers but at the same time you have 50/50 chance of winning games. The balancing side should come from the tier system instead.

And how does that affect your ability to climb? I only queue solo. I have had a 9-10 win streak, with the last match even granting me two pips, meaning the other side should have been favored to win. Sure, you do get handed bad cards, as in terrible team mates. But that it’s 50/50 has nothing to do with it. It should obviously be as even a match as possible, or any sort of progression would be absolutely pointless. If you were destined to win every single match, where’d the excitement be? The problem for me, the thing that makes me salty, is losing to premades as a team of all randoms.

It’s fine to win 2 matches, lose 1, win 3 matches, lose 2, win 3 matches and climb a tier. You don’t need to win 5 matches in a row to climb at any point in the Divisions. Is it frustrating? Kitten yes, beyond belief. But again, I mainly get super salty when I feel the matchmaking just kittened me over and kittened my kitten’s kitten because I am pretty much always on a team of all randoms, and then get faced with team after team who have some players grouped (—not saying my teams never win these, but that team had an unfair advantage). I just want that to stop. I want to either queue as a team, facing teams, or solo, facing others who are solo. I want Solo- and Group Queue, 1+1+1+1+1 matching, and 2+3, 4+1 (solo players queuing for Group Queue) or 5 matching respectively. Then things can actually be a bit more fair.

You’ll be eventually reach the level of 50/50. I had 90% wins before i hit that mark in sapphire 5. Then you understand what i mean.

muscarine.5136:

We finally have a system that makes sense and rewards being good vs non sense grinding (meaningless ranks, anybody can have it reward tracks) to show off where we actually stand skill wise.
I thought the pvp player base was dying for a system like that.

Except it doesn’t reward being good (in fact, it punishes being good by making it harder to progress, see my post above) and it doesn’t show off where anyone stands skill-wise (with MMR being separate from league, the player with the highest MMR in the world can be in the same division as the player with the lowest, etc.)

Here’s my specific stats since Leagues started: 57 Wins, 45 Losses, Win Rate: 55.88%. I am in a 50/50 average across my roughly 100 matches for the Leagues so far. I am in Sapphire too I might add. And yes, being a person that queue solo makes that a bit of a hellish journey at times, but I don’t blame that on the 50/50 intention of keeping matches even, I blame that on poor matchmaking when it puts teams vs. randoms.

Pakkazull.6894:

It’s a stupid system with the way MMR and divisions are disconnected.

Could it be cuz the playerbase is to small? The potential higher one get, the longer queues.

Keeping matches even well yes kinda. It would be just better if divisions would do the balance and you’d reach your own league rank and have even matches there and even chance to improve while facing harder opponents step by step.

Imagine if that 50/50 happens to you in first sapphire division. You are not getting into a team by saying “I am sapphire 1. I have played 6k games.”. This 50/50 bs is destroying the idea of that league patch next to your name and making it useless like your pvp rank.

nacario.9417:

Pakkazull.6894:

It’s a stupid system with the way MMR and divisions are disconnected.

Could it be cuz the playerbase is to small? The potential higher one get, the longer queues.

Well anet surely isn’t giving much space for pvp to improve and grow if they implement broken systems like this. This system just makes people turn away.

Do you guys think the league system would work better if you got 2 pips for winning by default and lost 1 pip when you lose?

I’m not a pro but I’m not bad either. I have around 50% winrate and most of my games go: win-lose-win-lose with occasional loss/win streaks here and there. Some of my games are doomed from the start based on the matchup, or this is how I feel at least.

I don’t feel like I achieved anything when I win because I know I’ll lose progress if I lose my next game. Except for when I get 2 pips for a win.

Maris.3164:

Do you guys think the league system would work better if you got 2 pips for winning by default and lost 1 pip when you lose?

I’m not a pro but I’m not bad either. I have around 50% winrate and most of my games go: win-lose-win-lose with occasional loss/win streaks here and there. Some of my games are doomed from the start based on the matchup, or this is how I feel at least.

I don’t feel like I achieved anything when I win because I know I’ll lose progress if I lose my next game. Except for when I get 2 pips for a win.

The problem is not with pips gain, the problem is with match making, for example, you que solo, you are on win streak and then suddenly you need to carry your team, against trio, 4 man que, when it’s just impossible due to team comp, the way meta is atm. And you run in those kind of conditions because system decides that for you.

People already tanked their mmr, played in premades, which just spreads futher imbalance, sometimes system even choose you to have a good match up but you have in your team people who has been carried by premades or exploit usage.

The thing you suggest, it’s just a grind for a “legendary” or wings.

Leagues connected to mmr are just utter stupidity and I wanna personally meet person who got this idea. Not everyday you’ve got a chance to see someone that careless.
Even though I had lots of well-balanced matches, most of them was like: 5 randoms including me against 3/4/5-person premade.
It’s obvious that premades and solo should be seperated. But in addition mmr shouldn’t work with 50/50 rate. Before leagues I had ~80% win ratio, so I probably had high mmr. After getting smashed by premades I got stuck in emerald, my home for life.

I just wanna know HOW am I supposed to progress in solo que with win/loose pattern like this:

Rosia.9145:

Leagues connected to mmr are just utter stupidity and I wanna personally meet person who got this idea. Not everyday you’ve got a chance to see someone that careless.
Even though I had lots of well-balanced matches, most of them was like: 5 randoms including me against 3/4/5-person premade.
It’s obvious that premades and solo should be seperated. But in addition mmr shouldn’t work with 50/50 rate. Before leagues I had ~80% win ratio, so I probably had high mmr. After getting smashed by premades I got stuck in emerald, my home for life.

I just wanna know HOW am I supposed to progress in solo que with win/loose pattern like this:

Exactly this.

Rosia.9145:

Leagues connected to mmr are just utter stupidity and I wanna personally meet person who got this idea. Not everyday you’ve got a chance to see someone that careless.

Except they aren’t connected, that’s one of the issues with the system. They’re just two separate systems largely working against one another. Also, how would you suggest matchmaking would work without MMR? Purely through the divisions like Hearthstone? Suppose it might work. Would still prefer MMR with your division being a function of your MMR.

More people are hitting the 50/50 threshold.

What I want is a system where you can progress based on your skill level and not based on what the code says is the best aka 50/50 win rate. Progressing through divisions would be the best choice without mmr so that your league tier and division would work as your mmr.

If this change happens we can finally see who are the players forming possible new pvp teams. Currently top tier players are the players playing in pro league already.

This change would also help learning because eventually that system would match you against same mmr opponents and it would be good for soloq also.

Good soloq players can form teams with other good soloq players.

Also guild ladder has to have seperate que. GvG is not guild vs premade/pugs.

Have you put your tinfoil hat yet? If not do it fast!

Guys you know what the problem is? You guys want to progress… like leveling or pve.

This is what is wrong.

There is no progression on e-sports, there is just improving as a player, and ranking up as a result.

You should be stuck on the same place you are losing and winning 50% until you somehow discover a way to play better and force wins…

That is until you get stuck again… and learn something again, this is the only progression e-sports have…

people get stuck on bronze V on league of legends for years… YEARS… because they are not good enough to climb out of it.

And I’ll tell you more… ranking up is easy as kitten now. On other e-sports ruby division rules apply since the first game you play ranked.

The 50% win/loss rate is quite true when it comes to solo queueing. I mean you can take a look on the leadersboards and just about everyone on there has a 50%ish win rate some slightly higher but 50% is about the average.

“50/50” is not a actual mechanic, it’s not like you’re set to win and then set to lose.
“50/50” is not the issue, the quantity of utterly horribly bad players is the issue, and mmr hell is still a thing.
Anet can’t fix horribly bad players.

muscarine this is not a issue.

e-sports has always been like this… to climb you have to be so good that you make a difference among those bad players.

This way communication and leadership skills also count as beeing a better player.

Team competitive games are like this… you have to be omfg better than the others to climb out of the “elo hell” you got into.

And the more you play without doing so… the more you 50/50 more consistent your w/l becomes so more efficiently the system it will pair you with 50/50.

You have to be very good, than you will rise.

To rise fast on e-sports playing a lot won’t do…. you generaly have to study the game, get better at comunicating and predicting enemy team behavior while getting better at general duel to be sucessful.

Maybe you’re just in the division you belong to? I won 15 games in a row since sunday, solo queing, as a thief. That was in saphire. If you’re stuck, it could just be the system working as intended.

That being said, you can still get lucky and grind your way to ruby. The system caters to both categories of players.

Sorel.4870:

Maybe you’re just in the division you belong to? I won 15 games in a row since sunday, solo queing, as a thief. That was in saphire. If you’re stuck, it could just be the system working as intended.

That being said, you can still get lucky and grind your way to ruby. The system caters to both categories of players.

You are 20% of a team, you are 1 out of 5, there is no way that you won 15 games in a row since Sunday (that’s very few games over the course of 4 days I might add). I know, we all tend to say “I won”, but technically we are wrong, our teams won. If you are stuck, you may just be getting bad dice rolls with your team mates. If you are a full premade, you have no excuse, as a team. Without separation of Solo- and Group Queue, you can legitimately put some of your stagnant blame on being paired up against premades, because it happens, and they steamroll your team of randoms.

Kaliny.8265:

Guys you know what the problem is? You guys want to progress… like leveling or pve.

This is what is wrong.

There is no progression on e-sports, there is just improving as a player, and ranking up as a result.

You should be stuck on the same place you are losing and winning 50% until you somehow discover a way to play better and force wins…

That is until you get stuck again… and learn something again, this is the only progression e-sports have…

people get stuck on bronze V on league of legends for years… YEARS… because they are not good enough to climb out of it.

And I’ll tell you more… ranking up is easy as kitten now. On other e-sports ruby division rules apply since the first game you play ranked.

The problem is it doesn’t work like this. You got low MMR? Cool, you’re gonna progress faster than someone with high MMR. You’re not gonna get matched against Prolague premades every other game. You won’t be supposed to carry others, you’re the one who will get carried. All of this for the price of low MMR. There’s no improvement with divisions, only frustration.

Pakkazull.6894:

Except it doesn’t reward being good (in fact, it punishes being good by making it harder to progress, see my post above)

This is a myth, it isn’t easier for a casual to progress. That myth comes from a total misunderstanding of how the matchmaker works.

The matchmaker works on two assumptions:
1) If a player is below 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are better than the player, and the matchmaker should move them down.
2) If a player is above 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are below their skill level, and the matchmaker should find better players for them to fight.

This leads to a natural equilibrium at 50% win rate where the player is playing against their own skill level.

This does not make it easier for casuals as it just leads to casuals fighting other players at their skill level, while experienced players fight other experienced players at their own skill level.
The entire system just leads to everyone fighting at their own skill level.

Crinn.7864:

Pakkazull.6894:

Except it doesn’t reward being good (in fact, it punishes being good by making it harder to progress, see my post above)

This is a myth, it isn’t easier for a casual to progress. That myth comes from a total misunderstanding of how the matchmaker works.

The matchmaker works on two assumptions:
1) If a player is below 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are better than the player, and the matchmaker should move them down.
2) If a player is above 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are below their skill level, and the matchmaker should find better players for them to fight.

This leads to a natural equilibrium at 50% win rate where the player is playing against their own skill level.

This does not make it easier for casuals as it just leads to casuals fighting other players at their skill level, while experienced players fight other experienced players at their own skill level.
The entire system just leads to everyone fighting at their own skill level.

So in general, win rate is not a record intended for bragging rights. It is just a flagging system that ensures you are challenged, but not to the point of frustration.

If win rate is going to mean something, it would only have weight in two instances:

in a 1v1 arena. which classes are not balanced for.

in a premade that plays consistently together. (and even then only marginally since there are lots of premades)

Crinn.7864:

Pakkazull.6894:

Except it doesn’t reward being good (in fact, it punishes being good by making it harder to progress, see my post above)

This is a myth, it isn’t easier for a casual to progress. That myth comes from a total misunderstanding of how the matchmaker works.

The matchmaker works on two assumptions:
1) If a player is below 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are better than the player, and the matchmaker should move them down.
2) If a player is above 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are below their skill level, and the matchmaker should find better players for them to fight.

This leads to a natural equilibrium at 50% win rate where the player is playing against their own skill level.

This does not make it easier for casuals as it just leads to casuals fighting other players at their skill level, while experienced players fight other experienced players at their own skill level.
The entire system just leads to everyone fighting at their own skill level.

Except this doesn’t work. Hence why we have games with very low/high chance to win.

Laraley.7695:

Crinn.7864:

Pakkazull.6894:

Except it doesn’t reward being good (in fact, it punishes being good by making it harder to progress, see my post above)

This is a myth, it isn’t easier for a casual to progress. That myth comes from a total misunderstanding of how the matchmaker works.

The matchmaker works on two assumptions:
1) If a player is below 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are better than the player, and the matchmaker should move them down.
2) If a player is above 50% W/L then the player is fighting against opponents that are below their skill level, and the matchmaker should find better players for them to fight.

This leads to a natural equilibrium at 50% win rate where the player is playing against their own skill level.

This does not make it easier for casuals as it just leads to casuals fighting other players at their skill level, while experienced players fight other experienced players at their own skill level.
The entire system just leads to everyone fighting at their own skill level.

Except this doesn’t work. Hence why we have games with very low/high chance to win.

There are only three problems with the system.

The first weakness in the matchmaker is that it doesn’t account for the meta. i.e. it might throw a bunch of reapers against a bunch of DS eles, because it doesn’t give a kitten about where class balance is at.

The second weakness is that the matchmaker also wants to reduce wait time as much as possible, so if there are not enough players at a given skill level it will start to move outside of that skill level in order to make a match.

The third weakness is that the system’s accuracy is largely dependent having larger numbers of matches played for everyone. The less matches played a player has the less accurate the matchmaker is.

EDIT: other potential problem is that the matchmaker has no way to compensate for external effects outside of a players skill level. Example: A player playing a crappy computer with a crappy internet connection being given a low MMR, but then one day that player gets a new computer and upgrades their internet. It will take a long time for the matchmaker to readjust. Another example is people deliberately tanking their own MMR.

Ginaz.3206:

The game matches you up the best it can. The 50/50 W/L thing is a myth made up by terrible players. It does not “try to make you lose” at any point.

Also, you’re supposed to rise by being good. You’re probably not good, deal with it.

Not a myth, any MMR system will make it so you rise in MMR to a point where you face extremely hard teams, then, if you lose, your MMR will go back down to the point where you face people of your own level. The system is trying as hard as possible to make even matchups, if the matchups are indeed even, then there should be a 50% chance you will win or lose, which will lead to a 50/50 split.

This is how it is supposed to be and similar systems are implemented in many other games.