Guild Wars 2

Really, if you gonna nerf class (thief) to oblivion or/and buff everything else to the point where thief is a joke in comparison at least make sure you bann players verbally harassing thief players. I am sick at tired of having ppl telling me to quit, uninstall, reroll, call me names, report me for botting and spam me with crap messages if we lost game just because i play thief.

YOU (Anet) ruined the class, YOU suppose to make sure that players at least don’t get harassed in game WHICH you are NOT doing. Instead all i see is more nerfs (since HoT) and people that harassed me are still playing. Instead of wasting time on forums, banning people for harmless posts or spamming reddit about muffins why don’t you actually do some job ban people for verbal abuse. Thanks.

P.S. Oh and i dare mods to bann me for this thread, this would mean they support player harassment.

inb4 removed due verbally abusing sheep :>

I feel you Cynz. Fortunately I am not experiencing as much harassment as you but when I do it’s pretty bad. This needs to be addressed ASAP.

i don’t harass them when i see 2 thief in my team people should play what they like.
i just silently rage inside that i gonna lose pips………..

They said they were going to discuss balance next week. Do you expect an answer prior to that or did you post a thread for the sake of having your daily online rant?

Sorel.4870:

They said they were going to discuss balance next week. Do you expect an answer prior to that or did you post a thread for the sake of having your daily online rant?

did you even read my post?

@OP

the truth is no one wants a thief on their team. Why? The class is weak and there never really were many good thieves to begin with. I’m finding that whenever I have a thief on my team, about 80% of the time we lose. Coincidence? No.

Cynz.9437:

did you even read my post?

Yes

style.6173:

@OP

the truth is no one wants a thief on their team. Why? The class is weak and there never really were many good thieves to begin with. I’m finding that whenever I have a thief on my team, about 80% of the time we lose. Coincidence? No.

Cool story bro

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

another person that is incapable of reading

Because you think warriors players don’t get harassed ?

I get asked to reroll litterally 3 out of 4 games. Just tell them to kitten off or block them and prove them wrong. Those people actually motivates me to keep playing my warrior.

And btw

YOU (Anet) ruined the class, […] Instead all i see is more nerfs (since HoT) and people that harassed me are still playing.

Sounds like complaining to me.

chibbi.3706:

Because you think warriors players don’t get harassed ?

I get asked to reroll litterally 3 out of 4 games. Just tell them to kitten off or block them and prove them wrong. Those people actually motivates me to keep playing my warrior.

And btw

YOU (Anet) ruined the class, […] Instead all i see is more nerfs (since HoT) and people that harassed me are still playing.

Sounds like complaining to me.

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

ofc i am not happy, anets crappy balancing is direct cause of the player griefing in game right now

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

style.6173:

@OP

the truth is no one wants a thief on their team. Why? The class is weak and there never really were many good thieves to begin with. I’m finding that whenever I have a thief on my team, about 80% of the time we lose. Coincidence? No.

80% of the times I lose a match with a thief on my team only when another person spends the entire match ranting about having said thief in the team as opposed to playing the kitten game. When people actually focus on playing the game, I win most of them, don’t think that’s a coincidence either.

There are bad players on every class, sadly though, sheeples will just blame a thief for everything because it’s easier that way.

There was a guy on my team verbally abusing our thief before the match even began, full on telling the guy to go die just because of a class he was playing. The thief did everything right and this guy giving him crap kept running in outnumbered to die and then spent the rest of the match chasing a druid off point…yet to him and one other on the team it was the thief’s fault we lost.

The community is disgustingly toxic and anet does nothing to address it. If they’re not going to get on the ball with balance, then they need to pick up the slack on these griefing issues.

I try to avoid posting on here but hey this game is going to hell in a handbasket, anet needs to step up.

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

You cant seriously believe thief/dd is in any way better than DH. DH can take a thief out while going afk on point. A thief has great mobility, sure, but DH just makes them explode no matter if you are on point or off point and in range of their long bow.

In othet words….You must be super terrible if you actually think DH is anywhere bear as bad as thief/dd

It just baffles me how people are this blind or just this bad at the game

Haven’t seen anyone badmouth a thief since I hit ruby a long time ago. Anyone who still does is just ignorant. A well played thief is insanely good for +1s and is probably one of the best to creating windows to kill DS tempests.

Now warriors, they’re the ones (deservedly) getting flamed.

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Did you moan for 2.5 years when thief was required in every team and could carry solo queue more than any other class by far?

Nah you didnt. As such, I support the karma of thief being bad.

Cynz.9437:

Really, if you gonna nerf class (thief) to oblivion or/and buff everything else to the point where thief is a joke in comparison…snip

Warrior class says hi.

Cynz.9437:

YOU (Anet) ruined the class, YOU suppose to make sure that players at least don’t get harassed in game WHICH you are NOT doing. Instead all i see is more nerfs (since HoT) and people that harassed me are still playing. Instead of wasting time on forums, banning people for harmless posts or spamming reddit about muffins why don’t you actually do some job ban people for verbal abuse. Thanks.

P.S. Oh and i dare mods to bann me for this thread, this would mean they support player harassment.

Or you could take the training wheels off that soldiers ami and play something a bit more meta, ya?

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

You cant seriously believe thief/dd is in any way better than DH. DH can take a thief out while going afk on point. A thief has great mobility, sure, but DH just makes them explode no matter if you are on point or off point and in range of their long bow.

In othet words….You must be super terrible if you actually think DH is anywhere bear as bad as thief/dd

It just baffles me how people are this blind or just this bad at the game

DH are completely gimmicky, they have no mobility what so ever, are extremely easy to focus down and most of their damage is extremely predictable and counterable. It’s only good against bad players.
DD have extreme mobility, very good mostly unavoidable burst, are hard to take down due to their mobility and dodges, utility with team stealth, an elite that’s very good at finishing people off.
But yeah, you have to be better at the game to play DD than to play DH, so I return you the “compliment” : you must be super terrible at the game.

Also, a class winning against another in 1v1 doesn’t make them better than said class. I win 100% of my 1v1 vs tempest as warrior, warrior better than tempest confirmed ?

They should remove stealth from Engineers and Mesmers, and tone down single target DPS for some classes like Revenant and Warrior.

Amineo.8951:

They should remove stealth from Engineers and Mesmers, and tone down single target DPS for some classes like Revenant and Warrior.

fixed

Lordrosicky.5813:

Did you moan for 2.5 years when thief was required in every team and could carry solo queue more than any other class by far?

Nah you didnt. As such, I support the karma of thief being bad.

It is levels of salt like this that has thrown profession balance into the state its in right now. I hope you realize that.

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

You cant seriously believe thief/dd is in any way better than DH. DH can take a thief out while going afk on point. A thief has great mobility, sure, but DH just makes them explode no matter if you are on point or off point and in range of their long bow.

In othet words….You must be super terrible if you actually think DH is anywhere bear as bad as thief/dd

It just baffles me how people are this blind or just this bad at the game

DH are completely gimmicky, they have no mobility what so ever, are extremely easy to focus down and most of their damage is extremely predictable and counterable. It’s only good against bad players.
DD have extreme mobility, very good mostly unavoidable burst, are hard to take down due to their mobility and dodges, utility with team stealth, an elite that’s very good at finishing people off.
But yeah, you have to be better at the game to play DD than to play DH, so I return you the “compliment” : you must be super terrible at the game.

Also, a class winning against another in 1v1 doesn’t make them better than said class. I win 100% of my 1v1 vs tempest as warrior, warrior better than tempest confirmed ?

Thieves have always been used to be top dog on mobility survivability and single target burst. This has always been true to such a level that all zerker specs but medi guards have been obliterated and pushed out of meta. The only thing that was positive in hot balance is that you have1 counter to thieves now(rev are a good tradeoff for mobility and is not destroyed in 1v1). The thieves community is obviously not used o be countered and does not acept it. This is why there is so much noise on their state.
To be honnest warriors and guardians are in a much weaker state.

Kicast.1459:

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

You cant seriously believe thief/dd is in any way better than DH. DH can take a thief out while going afk on point. A thief has great mobility, sure, but DH just makes them explode no matter if you are on point or off point and in range of their long bow.

In othet words….You must be super terrible if you actually think DH is anywhere bear as bad as thief/dd

It just baffles me how people are this blind or just this bad at the game

DH are completely gimmicky, they have no mobility what so ever, are extremely easy to focus down and most of their damage is extremely predictable and counterable. It’s only good against bad players.
DD have extreme mobility, very good mostly unavoidable burst, are hard to take down due to their mobility and dodges, utility with team stealth, an elite that’s very good at finishing people off.
But yeah, you have to be better at the game to play DD than to play DH, so I return you the “compliment” : you must be super terrible at the game.

Also, a class winning against another in 1v1 doesn’t make them better than said class. I win 100% of my 1v1 vs tempest as warrior, warrior better than tempest confirmed ?

Thieves have always been used to be top dog on mobility survivability and single target burst. This has always been true to such a level that all zerker specs but medi guards have been obliterated and pushed out of meta. The only thing that was positive in hot balance is that you have1 counter to thieves now(rev are a good tradeoff for mobility and is not destroyed in 1v1). The thieves community is obviously not used o be countered and does not acept it. This is why there is so much noise on their state.
To be honnest warriors and guardians are in a much weaker state.

Top dog on single target burst? Clearly u never played Shatter Mesmer/DPS Guard pre-HoT.. Thief doesnt get countered by Revs in this meta; it gets countered by random aoe by every single class but Warriors.

If you don’t play thief, then you can’t possibly know the issues.

Kicast.1459:

To be honnest warriors and guardians are in a much weaker state.

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Momekic.8603:

chibbi.3706:

Man, why do we hear thief players complaining so much when there are 2 other classes that are worse than thief.

Lol, what? What 2 classes do you think are worse than thief?

Warrior and thief are pretty much even in the bottom tier. Im really just curious what other class you think is weak, because all other classes are strong at the moment compared to these two.

Daredevil is better than both DH and warrior.

Cynz.9437:

you are welcome to make thread for warriors… i personally yet have to see anyone cry rivers about having warrior on team though

This is just an example but : http://puu.sh/mi4YQ/4f6fbd49b3.jpg

kitten like this happen all the time.

You cant seriously believe thief/dd is in any way better than DH. DH can take a thief out while going afk on point. A thief has great mobility, sure, but DH just makes them explode no matter if you are on point or off point and in range of their long bow.

In othet words….You must be super terrible if you actually think DH is anywhere bear as bad as thief/dd

It just baffles me how people are this blind or just this bad at the game

DH are completely gimmicky, they have no mobility what so ever, are extremely easy to focus down and most of their damage is extremely predictable and counterable. It’s only good against bad players.
DD have extreme mobility, very good mostly unavoidable burst, are hard to take down due to their mobility and dodges, utility with team stealth, an elite that’s very good at finishing people off.
But yeah, you have to be better at the game to play DD than to play DH, so I return you the “compliment” : you must be super terrible at the game.

Also, a class winning against another in 1v1 doesn’t make them better than said class. I win 100% of my 1v1 vs tempest as warrior, warrior better than tempest confirmed ?

Lol, okay, so you are delusional, thank you for proving it by everything you say.

DH is more than a gimmick, you would realize that if you weren’t a terrible player. DH does have good mobility, you just can’t play a full trap build like an idiot.

In the current meta, if the team you are facing has 3 bunkers (which 90% of the time they do) a DH can be more valuable than a thief. A DH can apply more aoe pressure, has more cc, shares boons with allies, can lock opponents down, and much more.

A well played DH is more valuable in this current meta than a well played thief.
If you think otherwise you are either delusional or a terrible player, or both, which sounds like you are indeed both.

Spathis.7540:

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

I agree with this. Having a good team is what makes thief shine. There are good theives out there that get crap teams every time they que, then there are good thieves that are lucky and get good teams most of the time. Hence the difference in views from some thieves.

That being said, looking at the big picture, pretty much all other classes (except war of course) are more useful in a team fight over a thief. Why use a thief for +1 and decap when you can run as some other meta and hold a point the whole game in addition to +1’ing. With a good team, its more useful to hold a point than it is to simply decap one in this current meta.

Spathis.7540:

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Only way a thief is an asset is if the thief’s team can carry them so to speak. You have to be able to hold points and allow the thief to do their job of roaming the map. If at any point in time you start to lose team fights before the thief can do his/her job that thief is a liability.

What this means is you didn’t carry those wins, and I highly doubt you were soloq’n those matches.

Please post the ENTIRE screen shot instead of the one with valuable info cut out of it.

HOLD THE PHONE, you have a GOLDEN opportunity to make money. Simply stay on teef until the game game starts and tell people that you will take 5g from at least 2 people to switch to a rev. You will be swimming on gold in no time bud .

Firebird.8324:

HOLD THE PHONE, you have a GOLDEN opportunity to make money. Simply stay on teef until the game game starts and tell people that you will take 5g from at least 2 people to switch to a rev. You will be swimming on gold in no time bud .

omg you are genius

While I do not like player abuse, I am not sure what Anet can do about it. You can’t censor people. And I suppose you could short term ban. But idk, maybe if they buff the class, then people will stop verbal abusing.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Did you moan for 2.5 years when thief was required in every team and could carry solo queue more than any other class by far?

Nah you didnt. As such, I support the karma of thief being bad.

Actually lots of thieves moaned for 2+ years about being forced into the single role that kept them in the meta while being told that the core class couldn’t be improved because they were too mobile by the rest of the community.

I get annoyed at people who ask warriors and thieves to switch….

I prefer people to play the class they are most comfortable on, usually wields better results.

I do laugh when a warrior gets asked to change, and he returns as a thief. MAkes my day everytime.

sephiroth.4217:

I get annoyed at people who ask warriors and thieves to switch….

I prefer people to play the class they are most comfortable on, usually wields better results.

I do laugh when a warrior gets asked to change, and he returns as a thief. MAkes my day everytime.

I only ask warriors/thieves to change if there are 2 of them on a team.

From my experience as a Diamond Tempest / Reaper;
Thieves are generally a liability due to the fact that you’re not on voice-com. Being able to quickly shout for +1’s is the strength of thieves.
They do however get incredibly out-performed by Revenants do to their incredible mobility, dmg, cc aswell as sustain.

People start whining as soon as they see me on thief or shatter mes. My new hobby is tanking the match when some one starts whining before the match starts. Since I’m legend, I often get diamond players. I love losing them pips for trying to tell me what to play.

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Only way a thief is an asset is if the thief’s team can carry them so to speak. You have to be able to hold points and allow the thief to do their job of roaming the map. If at any point in time you start to lose team fights before the thief can do his/her job that thief is a liability.

What this means is you didn’t carry those wins, and I highly doubt you were soloq’n those matches.

Please post the ENTIRE screen shot instead of the one with valuable info cut out of it.

The entire screenshots don’t show anything additional / important.
Attached regardless – I have no reason to lie to you. They were all solo queue wins.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Did you moan for 2.5 years when thief was required in every team and could carry solo queue more than any other class by far?

Nah you didnt. As such, I support the karma of thief being bad.

lol sounds you got killed by a thief and remained salty ever since

Spathis.7540:

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Only way a thief is an asset is if the thief’s team can carry them so to speak. You have to be able to hold points and allow the thief to do their job of roaming the map. If at any point in time you start to lose team fights before the thief can do his/her job that thief is a liability.

What this means is you didn’t carry those wins, and I highly doubt you were soloq’n those matches.

Please post the ENTIRE screen shot instead of the one with valuable info cut out of it.

The entire screenshots don’t show anything additional / important.
Attached regardless – I have no reason to lie to you. They were all solo queue wins.

Still doesn’t prove you were soloq

I find it very hard to believe btw

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Only way a thief is an asset is if the thief’s team can carry them so to speak. You have to be able to hold points and allow the thief to do their job of roaming the map. If at any point in time you start to lose team fights before the thief can do his/her job that thief is a liability.

What this means is you didn’t carry those wins, and I highly doubt you were soloq’n those matches.

Please post the ENTIRE screen shot instead of the one with valuable info cut out of it.

The entire screenshots don’t show anything additional / important.
Attached regardless – I have no reason to lie to you. They were all solo queue wins.

Still doesn’t prove you were soloq

I find it very hard to believe btw

Literally no reason to lie. Will however take the disbelief as a compliment.
I rarely take SS’s end of matches but a few attached.

Spathis.7540:

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Azukas.1426:

Spathis.7540:

Spathis.7540:

Solo queue, almost at diamond tier.
Partied with a friend for 5 matches at most. (none of which are related to the wins below).

Don’t believe the negative hype.

Backed this up with another, this time 9/10 wins. Ruby tier, getting close to diamond.
(All my matches again were solo queue).
Still copping flak prior, during and sometimes after matches.

The class is solid. Rotations (from you and your team) are what makes us look good or really really bad.

Only way a thief is an asset is if the thief’s team can carry them so to speak. You have to be able to hold points and allow the thief to do their job of roaming the map. If at any point in time you start to lose team fights before the thief can do his/her job that thief is a liability.

What this means is you didn’t carry those wins, and I highly doubt you were soloq’n those matches.

Please post the ENTIRE screen shot instead of the one with valuable info cut out of it.

The entire screenshots don’t show anything additional / important.
Attached regardless – I have no reason to lie to you. They were all solo queue wins.

Still doesn’t prove you were soloq

I find it very hard to believe btw

Literally no reason to lie. Will however take the disbelief as a compliment.
I rarely take SS’s end of matches but a few attached.

etc. etc. etc.

You do know those ss’s show that your team had a duo vs all solo’s right?

Infact the last one has a legendary duo’d with an amber…….

I’ve had a team of 3 thieves pre hot and thought we were going to lose. I teased about “ew thieves”, but I also said prove me wrong. They got into a good rotation of capping as I stayed at mid. By the time, I was getting too much pressure, they’d come around and burst the guy and move on. THAT’s a thief’s job IMO. Thief utility is great.

People boast about how great they are in 1v1s, but in a real fight, it’s all about teamwork and team communication. A thief’s evade spam (or only running) doesn’t kill people nor help their team; just gotta git gud.

Cynz.9437:

Highlie.7641:

Cynz.9437:

Hello Anet, are you going to do anything about player griefing in game or not? I have entire team harassing me non stop all game and telling me to reroll or go kill myself if i don’t. Would you love it if someone was standing next to you and told you all day, you are worthless crap, should go quit your job and kill yourself just because you decided to be a game developer?

Have you read this forum? That’s all they ever here

I think i might of accidentally reported you, sorry if you get an infraction…

-__-

I’m a fail thief what can i say i also put here instead of hear* i’m going to leave it up so people can secretly ridicule me. (Better then out in the open right fellow thieves)

Remember thieves take the pressure off of you. Because 9/10 times when a thief shows up, the enemy team changes their focus to push the thief out of the fight.