Guild Wars 2

Edit:
@Anet I am hoping you can tell us why the match-making is UNFAIR. Its not Opinion,,, so moderators please don’t change the title again and look at the pictures.

Hoping we get that pvp guy to answer and find out if its ever going to change or why the system is messing up so bad.

Why are single digits LB ranks going up against triple digit ranks? & Why does it take 24 minutes in some cases for your system to group the top 10 players on my team to face off against much lower ranks?
Similar stuff is happening in Team Arena so you cant really say because Solo Arenas only has been out A WEEK.

p.s. I think everyone would like LB ranks to ALSO show up after matches since its a better comparison over glory ranks! thanks soooo much

I understand the frustration as my first game of the night was against top 50 players while I’m currently in the 400 range. However, I’m not sure which solution doesn’t ultimately end up in much longer queues for everyone, which I’m sure nobody wants.

It appears the system is looking for players of similar rating and forming groups, then it next seeks out another group of similarly rated players to match them up against each other. However, if you think about the number of players queuing up at any given moment, my guess is the population isn’t big enough to get the match just exactly perfect every game.

For example, if the system brings together 5 top 50 rated players and then seeks to match them up against a comparable group, but all other players nearest in rating are currently in matches or perhaps not even playing at all, then I’m assuming it keeps moving down the list until the “best” match is found. Furthermore, once the match is over and all 10 queue up again at about the same time, then it’s likely to happen again. It’s simply a function of who is playing and when really.

One alternative is to have rating ranges and if there isn’t a match within the range, then the system waits until there are two teams within the range before matching and starting a game. As mentioned above, that will result in longer queue times. Personally, I’d rather have a shorter queue and take the risk that I’m going to run up against higher rated players on occasion than waiting 20-30 minutes or more between matches.

The other alternative is to simply match players at random without taking rating into consideration at all. I don’t think that will be fun for anyone, especially those with higher ranks as exhibited in the first day or so of solo queue where you could end up with just about anyone on your team, in many cases, players who were trying out tpvp for the very first time.

My suggestion would be to simply play and enjoy the experience of going up against some of the best players in the game. Take a beating, learn from it, and get better. Every once in a while, you might have a great match against these players and in some cases, you might just win.

One other thing to consider… I’m assuming you are playing to improve your rating, just as many of the other players you get grouped with are doing. What happens if you eventually succeed in reaching top 100 or top 50? Won’t you be playing against the same players you are complaining about being matched up against now?

Ya its actually very frustrating. Im actually always on the winning team. Magnobear. So Im always with the top 10 players I never get to face any hard players. Only rank 300s and beyond.

And thats for the awesome response!

I was hoping they could put 2 of the top players on each team then divide all the noobies.

The system does everything right but it needs one more step. After finding and linking two teams to each other for a matchup, they need to randomize that pool of 10 players.
It’s pretty clear by now, that this doesn’t happen. In an ideal situation, where the population and soloq activity is huge the rating differences wouldn’t be that big. But the system doesn’t allow extraordinary queue times and eventually matches you with a much lower rated team.

Anyway, there are tons of threads about this atm. We just need to wait for an answer from Anet. It seems an easy fix, I don’t know if it actually is easy to implement.

is 24 mins extraordinary Q times for solo arena?

Well it is early and the population overall is already low. So I think not even 10 people queued up at that point. Sad, but the truth.

ehhh Id like to believe that but Huiwi and darce were Qing up at the same time rank 16-40’s etc. And never versed them that match.
Its also been 5 days and everyone is struggling with Solo Arena, Ive been hearing the horror stories. I doubt the pops gonna get any bigger.

Team Qs also 22mins but dev responded same thing SoloQ is new and it needs 2 settle down. Then again in reality pops been split in 2………… Let that sink in………….. which is WHY they were so reluctant to add Solo in the frist place I bet! So I called cat on its still too early LOL

You know why you got matchmaked vs em, in your team you had a guy whos r80.
Its because of him you have to face those higher ranks and those top player were prolly in q for 15 min.

@sublime
Mangnobear rank 18 is my char. So talking about the 1st picture now. My team had a rank 87 so we faced a team that had 1 rank 87 along with rank 400’s, 600’s, and 800’s?

Krayiss.4926:

Why are single digits LB ranks going up against triple digit rankers?
Similar stuff is happening in Team Arena so you cant really say because Solo Arenas only has been out 5 days.
Hoping we get that pvp guy to answer and find out if its ever going to change or why the system is messing up so bad.

p.s. I think everyone would like LB ranks to ALSO show up after matches since its a better comparison over glory ranks! thanks soooo much

What Anet should do for solo q when dividing teams is put the highest rank on 1 side, the next highest on the other side, the next highest back on the other side, etc.. so teams be like:

275 250
215 195
110 99

This would fix sync q and make the top players have to actually work for their rank.

Rufy.6093:

Krayiss.4926:

Why are single digits LB ranks going up against triple digit rankers?
Similar stuff is happening in Team Arena so you cant really say because Solo Arenas only has been out 5 days.
Hoping we get that pvp guy to answer and find out if its ever going to change or why the system is messing up so bad.

p.s. I think everyone would like LB ranks to ALSO show up after matches since its a better comparison over glory ranks! thanks soooo much

What Anet should do for solo q when dividing teams is put the highest rank on 1 side, the next highest on the other side, the next highest back on the other side, etc.. so teams be like:

275 250
215 195
110 99

This would fix sync q and make the top players have to actually work for their rank.

Agreed.

Good job on showing that their matchmaking is kitten.

@Rufy ya I was hoping something like that would work but why wouldn’t Anet have thought of that? Its beyond me…….

Its just Sad that everyone has been asking for SoloQ Arena and this is what we get. 4v5s mismatched teams of rank 10s vs rank 100s-800s LOL. Ive only played 1-2 games that has been anything close to 400-500 in SoloQ Arena…..

They have alot of work to do….in the entirety of PvP

Bump because of ANet’s poor work.

I don’t understand why it was ever considered a good idea to put the 5 highest rated players on the same team for soloque. Which is clearly what the matchmaking algorithm is doing right now.

If you want to have competitive matches then you get 10 players within a reasonable rating of each other and you seed them into teams based on their respective rating relative to each other.
Team 1 – 1,3,6,8,10
Team 2 – 2,4,5,7,9

Voila! Relative to the regular face washings that the system currently produces you have at least a somewhat competitive match.

I just want my champion genius title, 20 more wins and pvp won’t see me again. Terrible matchmaking + constant leavers and leechers did it for me. Why would you play for leaderboards if it doesn’t say kitten anyway, since other people screw things up for me.

You want to face oppenents your onw skill level yet you dont want to w8 more then 2 min for the mesege to pop up this will not happen anyh time soon period. Its highly unliky for 10 ppl with same rank and skills to mack up at the same time. What arena net need’s to do for this game to have any suckses in pvp is to make pvp more rewarding for playars for comedetive you got like wat 6 maps for solo and 4 maps for team and its same old same old cap points defent points. There is no point in glory i hale 750k glyry and for what i cant use it for anything now arenanet did make new pvp finisher ok cool why it costs gems !!! you cant make mony from pvp you need to go for pve to meke mony yhet why the promot the game to seperate pvp from pve ??? For example let pvp playrs get wepon /armor skins from living story.

The problem of pvp the main problem is not the class balance wich is terible i paly mesmer from rank 20 to rank 50 only shater did so many tpvp games i dont realy remember and i put so much efort to kill some one and then i DW a spirit rangar build from the net and go straith in solo q and its baisikly sbow 1 and wen my target is in mele range pres Z X C for utilitys and he/she is done no thouth what so ever anyway i drifted a bit arena net MUST I REPEAT MUST promote pvp give bether rewards and wen more ppl play pvp then and only then you can talk abouth machmaking
to make pvp more popular make 2v2 3v3 arenas make a real tournemnt like the old days of 3 games. Make titles for 2v2 and 3v3. There is alot of work to be done for pvp but it feels like anet is simply ignoring the problems and doing what the know

@aleks
Your not looking at the pictures? I have 4 people on my team that have similar rank. So to correct what you said about what I want, is that I want 2 of those players to be on the other team so that it is EVEN. Not all 5 of us top 20s vs people rank 100s and beyond..

I don’t mind waiting 10 mins but when I have to wait 24 minutes so that ANET can put the top 10 players on my team. THATS RIDICULOUS, come on look at the pics!

NO they can not split or make any more types of matches. The Population of Tpvp’ers just got split so Q times are going to be higher & its unbelievable that Anet really believes times will settle back down to normal. So making flag games or 2v2s would just spread the butter/players even thinner and they will not do.

@Anet
We are still waiting for answers…..

bartrentenaar.8674:

I just want my champion genius title, 20 more wins and pvp won’t see me again. Terrible matchmaking + constant leavers and leechers did it for me. Why would you play for leaderboards if it doesn’t say kitten anyway, since other people screw things up for me.

Crabtoss Champion is the greatest Champion title ever.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

If you want to have competitive matches then you get 10 players within a reasonable rating of each other and you seed them into teams based on their respective rating relative to each other.
Team 1 – 1,3,6,8,10
Team 2 – 2,4,5,7,9

Voila! Relative to the regular face washings that the system currently produces you have at least a somewhat competitive match.

or they can pool 10 players on queue and irregardless of rating (so a rank 2 can still play with rank 60s) and do the same thing, based on their Glory Rank or Ladder rating and equalize the teams. So syncers will most likely to face each other.

The first screenshot was Blue Team’s big chance to win an upset and rise up the ranks.

See…that’s the problem. There are not enough people of various MMR playing at the same time to form teams that are “reasonably close” in MMR. The idea was correct; but the teams are not close enough, so there is little chance Blue could win and up the rating of it’s players.

@Silentshoes
Anet already knew that this was going to happen since the Spvp population is low and making a 2nd Q would NOW ONLY take people away from Team Arena. So that leaves the already low Population of Spvp ‘’thats on the rise’’ Lol and split them into 2 separate queses.

So tell me how they thought this MMR system of grouping the top 10 players together vs the ranks 10-20 or beyond was going to work?

The top teams hang around in Anvil Rock, which we have a server called “manvil rock”. Everytime they solo queue and end up with people they recognize, they get in teamspeak. If you face against them you will notice quick targetting responses and focusing… it’s just flat out cheap.

VOIP does give you an advantage but if your teammates get there at 1:00+ that’s more than enough time to link TS and load it before the match. If ppl dont’ have it that’s their own fault – the best and most effective way to coordinate is to not have to type anything at all and communicate in real time.

I don’t think it’s cheap it’s proactive. Sync Qing, on the other hand, is not cool b/c then you’re guaranteeing your comp and eliminating the randomness that should be part of Solo Q.

The MMR system is terrible. You’re constantly paired with people who don’t know how to play and it’s impossible to carry teams in this game. No one expects to win all the time, but you should at least have competitive matches.

Joining games where people are using /say to ask if there is party chat to talk (happens all too frequently) is infuriating.

I, as much as anyone else, wanted a solo queue but wanted to play with those who wanted to communicate and wanted to win. More than half the matches you try communicating and it’s dead silence until the end where everyone starts blaming each other.

There needs to be something more that can filter out those who want to play a higher quality match vs those who just want to hotjoin. As of right now, they are both the same.

ArcticPanzerWolf.7692:

I understand the frustration as my first game of the night was against top 50 players while I’m currently in the 400 range. However, I’m not sure which solution doesn’t ultimately end up in much longer queues for everyone, which I’m sure nobody wants.

It appears the system is looking for players of similar rating and forming groups, then it next seeks out another group of similarly rated players to match them up against each other. However, if you think about the number of players queuing up at any given moment, my guess is the population isn’t big enough to get the match just exactly perfect every game.

For example, if the system brings together 5 top 50 rated players and then seeks to match them up against a comparable group, but all other players nearest in rating are currently in matches or perhaps not even playing at all, then I’m assuming it keeps moving down the list until the “best” match is found. Furthermore, once the match is over and all 10 queue up again at about the same time, then it’s likely to happen again. It’s simply a function of who is playing and when really.

One alternative is to have rating ranges and if there isn’t a match within the range, then the system waits until there are two teams within the range before matching and starting a game. As mentioned above, that will result in longer queue times. Personally, I’d rather have a shorter queue and take the risk that I’m going to run up against higher rated players on occasion than waiting 20-30 minutes or more between matches.

In a properly used TrueSkill/GLICKO/ELO system the rating will offer insight into the probability of each team winning. In other words, you don’t need all that hoopla to fix the system. They simply need to correctly implement the rating systems such that the odds of winning for each team is no more than a 10% (this obviously needs to be played with) difference, ie. one team has a fifty five (can’t write the numbers…) % chance and the other a 45% chance.

The OP is right about similar level players getting sync’d up together, as I watched Symbolic get into almost the same teams match after match for nearly three hours. I formulated pretty much the same thing as OP that they group teams based on similar rank and despite some people I’m sure doing it unintentionally, I’m sure there are even more exploiting this system.

I personally hate the new system in the soloQ. It is open to exploitation more so than the previous system. If you were lucky enough to be q’ed with quality players at the beginning now you are almost assured victory, as you will be q’ed with high quality players for the foreseeable future, if you were like me, and q’ed with rank 1’s for 10 matches in a row, you are somewhere at the bottom of the board and could careless about pvp anymore, because the quality of player you are given match to match varies so greatly it makes the game literally, not fun to play. Just a bad system overall, great if your at the top and were lucky enough to get good players though, I will give you that.

Yes, the Top 100 seems to be self-perpetuating now. The MMR system does not allow them to play on a low-rated team and have to carry four people.

Silentshoes.1805:

Yes, the Top 100 seems to be self-perpetuating now. The MMR system does not allow them to play on a low-rated team and have to carry four people.

The other problem is that this game is harder than MOBAs to carry the rest of your team. We removed 1 guy from our team and our win rate went way up.

What sad is that there doesn’t even appear to be a balancing algorithm to mix up the roster to ensure that both teams have an equal AVERAGE leaderboard rank.

In the OP’s first screenshot, red team has an average leaderboard rank of 37.4 while blue team has an average rank of 504.6

This could have been fixed if they had a balancing algorithm that took the rank of all the players on both teams about to be matched and balanced them so the average rank was equal (or at least close).

With a quick roster equalization algorithm, those teams could look like:

[679, 492, 87, 16, 82] = 271.2 average rank vs [452, 818, 18, 26, 40] = 270.8 average rank

Properly optimized roster equalization would also take into account the standard deviation in each team’s rank and try to equalize those as well. This would ensure that it is a fair match (as far as rank goes).

Could it be that an ELO system is not necessarily designed to have even matches; it simply adjusts the penalty for losing to being very low (or maybe even 0) when you lose to a much higher-rated team?

If that is the case, it is not good for solo queue, especially when the players are “clumped” together in groups of very skilled, and very unskilled players.

It would be better to have a totally random group, and rating based on win-loss only.

That way most people would be at 50%, and really skilled players would be slightly higher. But I suspect the top-skilled people would hate it (as we do in the lower ranks having to carry people) and they would go back to Team Q pretty quickly.

Silentshoes.1805:

Could it be that an ELO system is not necessarily designed to have even matches; it simply adjusts the penalty for losing to being very low or (maybe even 0) when you lose to a much higher-rated team?

If that is the case, it is not good for solo queue, especially when the players are “clumped” together in groups of very skilled, and very unskilled players.

It would be better to have a totally random group, and rating based on win-loss only.

That way most people would be at 50%, and really skilled players would be slightly higher. But I suspect the top-skilled people would hate it (as we do in the lower ranks having to carry people) and they would go back to Team Q pretty quickly.

ELO could be used in one of two ways. You either don’t care about balanced matches, which means you minimize or completely negate the impact of the loss on your rating, or you do care where every match impacts your rating. The former is better for systems that don’t integrate leaderboard functionality and is hot join style matches. The latter is better for the community as you don’t waste their time in matches that aren’t even worth playing and it allows you to not waste your time with the illusion of progression.

Yes, you can technically have both, but I feel the latter is the more noble goal, but requires a large enough playerbase to successfully keep queue times down. The former makes queue times much shorter as it doesn’t require soloq be popular.

A.NET your algorithm sucks.

solo queue

alcopaul.2156:

A.NET your algorithm sucks.

solo queue

but..but…the red team won no?

alcopaul.2156:

A.NET your algorithm sucks.

solo queue

“Spirit rangers….”

Made my day! I still feel sorry for that poor soul though.

That reminded me a match I had vs three rangers and two guardians, Most boring day of my life. Mid fights were just full on troll mode.

So obvious they just put similary ranked people into the same team, competing against another team of similar ranked players, no matter if they are high- or lowranked. Guess they want matchups between teams of similar strength, but this could only work with a big base of players, like in golden times of GvG in Guildwars 1.
But for now, it just results in matches like in my screenshot, and whoever comes down to the “losersgroup” has no chance to improve anymore.

Hope they fix it real fast to even the 2 teams, so everyone is playing with average teams. Otherwise its just a matter of time till all players left because of this weird matchmaking.
At the moment, the matchmaking does nothin than matching uneven(!) matches, and thats an infamy!

I would like to see the developers consider using a "win/loss’ system to balance pvp/spvp. Meaning, you will play with and against players with a similar track record. That would feel more competitive. This current system just doesn’t do the trick. Of course, a seasoned player can wipe out new players easily, so what. That’s not a real challenge. Improve your skill and ability by fighting against challenging opponents.

Just my OP. Peace!

The matchmaking system should be based on K/D ratio!

K/D ratio would not work. Most guardians stay alive longer and get kills off teammates so all the guardians would be consider the top players.

But here’s another PIC of just how UNFAIR Anet designed the matchmaking system!

Also this is NOT OPINION for anyone who thinks it is. o.O Look at the rankings and then the score.

Back in the day in gw 1 wen you began to paly pvp first you had to do a baisick training with hanchmen ( bots ) then go to random arena make some wins and go to team arena make some witns and the you can enter the crown jew hall of heros the game it self DID NOT allaw you to enter straith ahead to ha
now you can buy the game and go straith for tournements and you all see the resolts

The issue is rather simple, the game forms teams based on rating and then finds the team with the closest rating and puts them against each other. So you queue as 100 and the matchmaking system puts you with 50, 200, 500, 300 which are reasonably close. Then 5 people queue with the rating of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50.

The matchmaking system gets a kitten because they’re all close and they are instantly put together. So your average is 230 theirs is 30, which is still pretty close if you think about it. So you get put against them as there is no team with an average inbetween you that’s queued in the last 2 minutes or so.

The Solution would be rather simple, instead make a pool of 10 people and then distribute the teams according to rank. Given that ANet historically lacks common sense however, I doubt we will see this any time soon… so I will continue to roll my troll minigame of trying to place a banner on ever point when I solo queue.

alcopaul.2156:

A.NET your algorithm sucks.

solo queue

Nice example newbies (r20) beat (r40’s) by abusing the OP’ness hrhr

butch.8136:

Well it is early and the population overall is already low. So I think not even 10 people queued up at that point. Sad, but the truth.

It only takes 10 players to make this game an E-sport, so that 10 can play e-sport conquest eternally. Who cares about the rest?

I don’t see the problem. /leaving Arenanet dev’s mind

Krayiss.4926:

K/D ratio would not work. Most guardians stay alive longer and get kills off teammates so all the guardians would be consider the top players.

But here’s another PIC of just how UNFAIR Anet designed the matchmaking system!

Also this is NOT OPINION for anyone who thinks it is. o.O Look at the rankings and then the score.

It’s called “A.NET’s Conquest Eugenics” grouping all the desirables to one team facing the undesirable team.

No! It doesn’t need to be longer queues! I’m quite sure the current problem is the following (this is based on many games in which this seemed the case, by comparing ranks and looking up leaderboard positions, like the OP has demonstrated pretty well in the pictures):

- system queues you up with 4 different accounts with similar/close enough ratings. The aggregate of these 5 players (let’s call it aggregate GROUP rating) is then matched with the closest available group rating. However, due to the system first finding 4 team mates and then matching them up, in many cases this causes unfair matches. Part of the problem is also of course the high skill cap of the game (except for with some exploit builds, but that’s a different problem!).

- A solution would be, as others have suggested, to find 9 players that are close to your rating, and then putting number 1 in team red, 2 and 3 in team blue, 4 in red, 5 blue, 6 red, 7 blue, 8 red, 9 blue, 10 red.

I agree with you JoopFOX awso i think wen the system finds lets say 5 ppl no mather the rank or lb rating and put them in a roster wen a 6-th person joins in solo q wich is a bether mach then one of this 5 ppl the system shuld swich places for this 2 ppl

I would wait 5 more minutes to have a fair match with no braindeads 1v1ing a bunker guard for 5 mins.

I said this again, but I feel it can’t be said enough. The solo que system as it is right now is bad. But the problem is exacerbated by Anet’s strong silence to replying to any of these problems, or anything in general that requires an answer other than “yay congratulate us for blah blah blah” and a few other generic answers. Have you guys seen that stickied thread at the top of this board? The one regarding transferring to another region and tournament chests?? Have you seen Anet’s responses since they acknowledged the problem 10 months ago?? The last vague update they gave it was 4 months ago and that was that they and no ETA on the fix.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Tournament-chests-and-transferring-between-server-regions/page/3#post2571804

In the background of all these problems is Anet’s never ending strive to improve on cosmetics. Heck they tend to reply more to those sorts of questions than any other I feel. Just look at Anet’s response to the pvp needs more titles thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Survey-Do-you-want-more-PvP-achievements/page/2#post2632986

“We agree wholeheartedly so we are devoting time and resource to improve on this incredibly important game-breaking issue”

Whilst I think pvp has so many problems, it is only one facet of a bigger problem, and I wish that I never invested any time on guild wars 2 or waited for it so belatedly ever since it was announced all those years ago.

You told us you would not rush out the game, and that you would only release when you were ready and sure of the game. I think you lied (canthan/great collapse quick fix being the most obvious example.)

We need to makes this thread bigger, its been 10 days since soloQ release and we know about this stupid matchmaking behavior since day 2.

Its no way that we can have balanced match’s when the system groups up 5x top r25 against 5x r200+ just because there isnt population enough to fill like 2 teams of top25.

This needs to be hotfixed asap, make the matchmaking an average of the leaderboards ranks on each team so there is not only fair match but fair ranks.
Has it is now, top ranks doesn’t even need to drop a sweat to win games and keep their position since the teams are so unbalanced in terms of skill distribution.

This is even more exarcebated out of primetime, high ranks are just farming all day, just like premades against pugs on team arena before.

But watching the lack of feedback from arenanet on this forum and on this topic in particular, I think we will either need to live with it or boycott the system.