Guild Wars 2

I think Elementalists are kinda “broken” and it is necessary to make some chances on the class.

The current meta builds can perform basically all the roles in a single build, power damage, condi damage, bunk, support, heals, they just got everything, it’s just too much.

It’s unfair to the other classes, that have to focus on one specific role, when the elementalists can just do it all on a single build, making it extremely overpowered.
It’s silly that a dagger/dagger elementalist can simply be tankier than a bunker guardian/warrior, but still be outputing a big ammount of damage, and giving heals/condi clear to the group.

Please take a look into the class, Anet.

the class isn’t the problem per say
celestial is…
if you nerf the class itself you nerf perfectly balanced or at least not OP builds into oblivion.
wouldn’t want that…

I never mentioned the word “nerf” here.

Some changes to the abusive sustain, thats the point.

from my tons of dueling experience, following are broken: ele(overall), engi(turret), mes(pu and cond). the only difference is that mesmer loses point for using stealth, so not been used a lot in tourney,but samely op In dueling situation anyway. gf

Pepsi.8907:

the class isn’t the problem per say
celestial is…
if you nerf the class itself you nerf perfectly balanced or at least not OP builds into oblivion.
wouldn’t want that…

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Celestial is fine! If it was a broken amulet, then we’d see it used on more classes! But the fact of the matter is Celestial is a pretty terrible amulet choice for most classes! How is that broken! The issue is that Elementalists are they only class with permanent vigor, combined with insane protection uptime, stacking 25 might permanently for their entire team, fury, crazy condi removal, crazy amounts of burn uptime, sustain up the butt, etc etc etc.! Still think Celestial is overpowdered! U cray dawg!

Their vigor needs to be brought down in line with every other class and their protection uptime needs to be reduced! Also their burn duration and might stacking capabilities need to be toned down! Then let overpowdered Necromancers start with like 3-4000 Life Force and BAM! Perfect meta!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

The celestial amulet meta going on right now is not just about the celestial amulet. Its the combination of the changes to Runes of Strength and Hoelbrak providing long boon duration bonus to might and how they interact with sigil of battle (already long duration might 3stacks for 20s before boon duration bonus). Currently ele, engi and warrior gain the most benefit from the cele amulet as they have access to a good mix of direct damage and condi (namely burning) uptime which makes them very difficult to deal with on a cap point.

The reason why Anet cant ‘fix’ this problem is that it’s going to be very tricky to make adjustments that will make the current meta cele amulet builds more toned down that won’t make other non-cele amulet builds even weaker. Before players make yet another post requesting to ‘nerf celestial amulet etc’ ask yourself the following:
- does nerfing the stats on celestial amulet limit the classes sustain that much? consider where the sustain comes from (ie. utilities, skills, and traits).
- does nerfing the stats on celestial amulet reduce the damage output of the class that much? consider might stacking capabilities for the class (also sigil of battle and strength/hoelbrak runes) and how much of the power and condi stats are actually coming from might stacks versus the base cele stats.

Frost

Eles (celestial d/d) stay alive through sustain, so you have to do it chuck conditions on when they go out of water (the main condi clear) or focus them. A d/d ele has a really small healthpool (~16k or something). The current meta build excels at 1v1 and 2v2s, but they begin to loose effectiveness after that.

It’s also worth pointing out that the main damage comes from Burning Speed and Fire Grab, both of which are incredibly easy to dodge (you can just walk sideways to dodge Fire Grab).

Now, I do play ele so I’m slightly biased, but I agree that there are things which need to be tweaked. Maybe it’s too easy to stack might, or the Strength/Hoelbrak Runes are too powerful. I don’t really know.

I don’t think the answer is “nerf cele!” though.

Ok, i do agree with everything posted here, but this is not a “plz nerf celestial” thread.
Celestial is fine the way it is, it’s just the way it’s working on elementalists that makes the whole combination extremely broken.

Yea it’s really strong on warriors and engis too, but you won’t see an warrior or engi making such huge impact on a match, as an “Celementalist”.
I think the fact they have access to simply everything, is just too much.
Their main damage abilities are incredibly easy to dodge, yea, but they got a decent ammount of cc to make it work, and it’s not like you’ll have endurance bar full always every 8 secs.

Engineers not making huge impacts on matches?

Remove permaregen or permavigor from bunker eles and it would be fine

Not as huge as eles

Just nerf celestial amulet, no weapon set is carried as hard by it’s amulet as the dd ele. And people saying that it is crap on most classes, it really isn’t. That is why 6/10 players in wts were using it. Sure 3 of them were eles, but there was still an engi, a warrior, and a guardian. So for six of the top players in the world representing 4 different classes they decided that this amulet was the best choice for the best build they could make. This is clearly an over-performing amulet.
With that being said, I think everyone knows that of all 4 of those classes, the only build that didn’t have an alternative amulet that was a competitive choice against celestial were the eles. I would love to be able to choose some amulet other than cele for my ele, but if you nerf a class that really isn’t strong with any other amulet, then you simply pigeon hole them into more celestial.

Is it possible to get an answer from Anet about it?
A class/build balance is really necessary to these celestial runners.

Just look into your own tournaments right now, the teams that TRY to play something different than stacking celestial Ele’s / Engi’s just lose 500 – 20. Is that really how you want to force your players to play ? Celestial bunky supporty sustain or bust ?

Not saying D/D ele’s are in a perfect place right now, but they are in the best place they’ve been so far. They went from Gods to totally useless to what we have now.

It may be a bit OP on some of the regen/vigor uptimes, but besides that it’s not ‘broken’ at all because there IS a lot of counter play that can be used against them. Something is broken when there is no counter play available.

L2Dodge their 3 main DPS skills (it’s pretty easy). Condi them coming out of water. Poison them often. And their only stability is armor of earth which is a long CD so if you have a nearby ally and you have a few CCs between the two of you, you can drop them fast (unless of course you waste your stuns with bad timing).

If anything is broken its the might stacking runes which allow classes to have high DPS in a build meant for sustain.

edit: CC’s not just stuns.

PLEASE DON’T RUIN MY S/F ELE THROUGH NERFS OF CELE D/D. please

Sincerely,
Shnicky

Nerf the celestial amulet. It’ll knock back eles, engs, and cele wars.

By nerfing might-stacking runes it will automatically nerf celestial builds without nerfing the classes themselves.

Solstice.1097:

By nerfing might-stacking runes it will automatically nerf celestial builds without nerfing the classes themselves.

Exactly.

D/D ele is strong is not because of celestial, but because of the 25 might stacks. Even if you Nerf celestial, Ele can just switch to another amulet, and still have that 25 might stacks. That’s 1750 more stats right there. That’s why they can do above average damage with a celestial amulet. Celestial amulet by itself without might stacks hits like a wet noodle.

Nerf the right thing. Make blast finishers only give 2 might stacks instead of 3 and the problem is solved. If you nerf cele, you will nerf a lot of other non-d/d Ele build , and all you will see afterward will be d/d ele.

Celestial is ok. It is better for the game to see everyone been average in all stats than super high dps or super bunker imortal classes. If every class become viable with celestial it will be easier to balance stuff around it. Elementalist is also ok and balance. It has low hp and light armor, that justify the class having good healing. The only thing that is a bit overpowered in the celestial builds is rune of strength. They should reduce strength might duration to be the same as hoelbrak.

LOL funny guy probably mains an celestial build and defending it.
Celestial Eles/Engis are obviously broken and need a nerf immidiately.

The whole game knows that, the whole game is talking about that, we need this problem to get fixed.

without might stacking celestial isn’t OP – probably not even viable. the issue is might stacking. let me spell it out for you:

Classes considered OP:

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some people say thieves and mesmers

Classes almost nobody considers OP

Rangers
Necros
Guardians

COMPARE THAT TO

Classes who use might-stacking

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some thieves and mesmers

Classes who rarely use might stacking

Rangers
necros
Guardians

See a pattern here?

Solstice.1097:

without might stacking celestial isn’t OP – probably not even viable. the issue is might stacking. let me spell it out for you:

Classes considered OP:

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some people say thieves and mesmers

Classes almost nobody considers OP

Rangers
Necros
Guardians

COMPARE THAT TO

Classes who use might-stacking

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some thieves and mesmers

Classes who rarely use might stacking

Rangers
necros
Guardians

See a pattern here?

BINGO

Without might stacking celestial does no damage – especially in the d/d elementalist build that is completely concentrated on defensive/bunker traitlines

I’ve tried celestial Necro/Ranger while the sustain is nice you do not kill anything because you rarely stack 10+ might stacks

Solstice.1097:

without might stacking celestial isn’t OP – probably not even viable. the issue is might stacking. let me spell it out for you:

Classes considered OP:

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some people say thieves and mesmers

Classes almost nobody considers OP

Rangers
Necros
Guardians

COMPARE THAT TO

Classes who use might-stacking

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some thieves and mesmers

Classes who rarely use might stacking

Rangers
necros
Guardians

See a pattern here?

Correlation does not mean causation. And who are you to say what classes are consider op and what classes “almost nobody” consider op? It is not hard to find lots of players who will tell you that medi guard, fearmancer or a bow ranger is op and easy to play.

I could make a correlation saying that the OP classes are mesmer and thief and also say they are the ones that normally run zerker. By your logic zerker would be the cause of the problem.

More than these others ,eles has been fix in and fix out alot ,only thing left is just delete the class ,prolem solve. Anet still want ele use something more than d/d and triple cantrips ,but the fact they dont know how to fix the problem.S/f burst is good ,but pew pew ranger or power necro much better cuz suitain .Sometime some other build works ,but alot of time their doesn’t. => celes d/d and might stack ftw ,cuz ppl love target ele first.

Narkodx.1472:

BINGO

Without might stacking celestial does no damage – especially in the d/d elementalist build that is completely concentrated on defensive/bunker traitlines

I’ve tried celestial Necro/Ranger while the sustain is nice you do not kill anything because you rarely stack 10+ might stacks

You put a Cele amulet on a Necro? Lol? Also not sure what you were doing, but my necro always has 10+ stacks of might.

xDudisx.5914:

Solstice.1097:

without might stacking celestial isn’t OP – probably not even viable. the issue is might stacking. let me spell it out for you:

Classes considered OP:

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some people say thieves and mesmers

Classes almost nobody considers OP

Rangers
Necros
Guardians

COMPARE THAT TO

Classes who use might-stacking

Eles
Engis
Warriors
some thieves and mesmers

Classes who rarely use might stacking

Rangers
necros
Guardians

See a pattern here?

Correlation does not mean causation. And who are you to say what classes are consider op and what classes “almost nobody” consider op? It is not hard to find lots of players who will tell you that medi guard, fearmancer or a bow ranger is op and easy to play.

I could make a correlation saying that the OP classes are mesmer and thief and also say they are the ones that normally run zerker. By your logic zerker would be the cause of the problem.

You just argued with my semantics.

You didn’t even comment on my point.

Let’s try again.

Celestial is really weak without might stacki….

Wait, why are you even arguing with me when your last posts said basically the same thing – celestial and ele’s are OK but runes of strength could use a nerf?

I ain’t payin’ no troll toll.

A celestial ele using runes of hoelbrak is balanced in my point of view. I dont think the class need any trait/utility/healing skill nerf. The only thing slightly op are the runes of strengh. When you compare it with hoelbrak it has way more might duration. Strengh might % should be on par with hoelbrak.

Maybe: Dodging in earth is no longer a blast finisher.

Ryan.9387:

Maybe: Dodging in earth is no longer a blast finisher.

that was a good change by moving that blast from earth dodge to water #2.

it made ele’s slightly weaker, but slightly less predictable (in their attunement rotations)

Has anyone intensely tested the 2 runes against each other? Strength gives 15% longer time but the 25% chance on hit to gain might for 5 sec (CD 5 sec) is weaker than Hoelbrak’s 25% chance on hit to gain might for 10 sec (CD 5 sec). if you ignore all the other might duration’s since they are the same for both, it makes the 5 sec duration 5.75. So you have .75 seconds longer for that 25% chance to proc to keep that bonus going. Where as Hoelbrak you have 5 whole seconds to get a 25% chance (basically WILL happen) if getting hit on.

Looking at the stats this way, I (not an ele) use Strength for the bonus damage vs the condition reduction; because the rest seemed to just even out.

I could be wrong on this (as I have not tested), but my question is if anyone has. A lot of allegations saying the might part is more OP on strength; but (if getting beat on) I would think it easier to stack and keep might up with Hoelbrak?? No?

In short – hoelbrak builds up stacks quicker, but strength builds up to a higher total number of stacks.

Solstice.1097:

In short – hoelbrak builds up stacks quicker, but strength builds up to a higher total number of stacks.

Got ya. Guess that makes sense.

Sometimes it seems like elementalists are necros on unlimited death shroud but with faster skill CD and higher mobility

Vapour.7348:

Sometimes it seems like elementalists are necros on unlimited death shroud but with faster skill CD and higher mobility

good condi necro will wreck a celestial d/d ele in 1v1.

Solstice.1097:

Vapour.7348:

Sometimes it seems like elementalists are necros on unlimited death shroud but with faster skill CD and higher mobility

good condi necro will wreck a celestial d/d ele in 1v1.

Depends on the variation of the celestial build that they are using.

Since so many people run conditions I tend to use one more geared towards cleansing them.
It deals a bit less damage then the standard build but handles conditions better.

At the end of the day I think most everyone can agree that the problem lies with specs that are so defensively specced being able to stack so much might.

Best fix I can come up for it would be to reduce the amount of stacks that are applied by blasting fire fields in PvP & or the duration of said stacks in PvP.
And possibly lowering the duration of might applied by the HGH trait for engineers.

Issue isn’t eles. Issue is 3 things but not specific to eles.

Condis are not balanced. Nuff said.

Runes are not balanced. It makes Condis even more unbalanced than just not balanced. And makes Boon durations too long. Higher damage modifiers than before.

Some runes like preplexity not permitted in SPVP since so broken but just as an example of how broken some runes are.

Warriors nerfed badly into the ground. What classes now counter ele, engi necro? None? People complained so much about healing signet this that and what we have now is 100% worst than how warriors were.

It’s might stacking + cele as a combo, neither one necessarily on their own. With these 2, any bunker ele build can hit like a truck. Warrior is the same, look at the new meta sword/warhorn + longbow build. You don’t see zerk d/d eles in spvp for a reason, it’s not nearly as viable. It’s cele/might stacking that’s the issue, not d/d ele.

Arius.7031:

It’s might stacking + cele as a combo, neither one necessarily on their own. With these 2, any bunker ele build can hit like a truck. Warrior is the same, look at the new meta sword/warhorn + longbow build. You don’t see zerk d/d eles in spvp for a reason, it’s not nearly as viable. It’s cele/might stacking that’s the issue, not d/d ele.

its might stacking that allows cele to be viable. i can’t think of any celestial builds that aren’t also built to stack might.

and even before celestial, the builds that were called OP the most all were built around might-stacking.

i don’t think it should be normal for people to individually stack 20 stacks of might. yes with allies you should be able to stack lots of might, such as empower, blasting fields, mesmer transferring boons, etc. but in a 1v1 the ele with might stacking runes gets up to 20-25 stacks without any help. that’s just too much, too often.

but it’s not WAY too much. if everything that gave 3 might stacks turned into 2 might stacks it might be too big of a nerf. might have to counterbalance that a little bit with a small boost somewhere else.

Solstice.1097:

Vapour.7348:

Sometimes it seems like elementalists are necros on unlimited death shroud but with faster skill CD and higher mobility

good condi necro will wreck a celestial d/d ele in 1v1.

Hi Solstice. In theory sure but in the highest tiers, when Phantaram (ele) beat Nos (nec) it further confirmed its favorable imbalance. And since you’re still working on a necro, I dont know if you actually believe your comment.

Am i the only one who see the problem comes from strength runes? 45% duration increase with an extra 5%dmg to it seems a lil bit op compared to other runes.

Without their perma 20+ might stack, i dont think warr and ele will be at their place now.

move arcane fury to the presicion line so they crit 1/4 instead of half there hits, that way if they trait full bunker like they are currently they won’t be dealing as high as damage, this way they can trait to be more defensive or more offensive (verbal abuse aside) after the change that maybe they can take a look at balanceing out sustained/offensive dd ele builds, I’m no expert though but something like this I think would be a good shave, even if you argue that dd eles need it to maintain there vigor/regeneration remember that a dd ele attacks heaps and even with reduced crit chance they still can pritty easily proc crit hits often enough to keep up those traits without to much worry, if anything it would make 1v1s harder then normal.

all in all if they did this change and this change alone it would give us something to use to find out where the balance for an ele needs to be taken rather then shaving it across the board.

Vapour.7348:

Solstice.1097:

Vapour.7348:

Sometimes it seems like elementalists are necros on unlimited death shroud but with faster skill CD and higher mobility

good condi necro will wreck a celestial d/d ele in 1v1.

Hi Solstice. In theory sure but in the highest tiers, when Phantaram (ele) beat Nos (nec) it further confirmed its favorable imbalance. And since you’re still working on a necro, I dont know if you actually believe your comment.

Wasn’t Nos built for power though?

Nos typically runs condi, apparently him and phanta duel each other a massive amount, and it is fairly even. So yes at the very top level condi necro doesn’t completely counter dd ele, but I have found at lower levels it is a extremely strong counter. That is unless I only run into extremely good necromancers and scrub elemenatlists.

You know what needs a nerf? Engi

The Meta has come full circle, we are back to double d/d ele OP meta of launch.

Darnis.4056:

The Meta has come full circle, we are back to double d/d ele OP meta of launch.

It didn’t become OP until a few months after launch, but yes, d/d ele is now OP again.

Ele is not OP. It’s the might stacking that is OP. Any class can be insanely strong if you give them 25 stacks of might. If you want to nerf, nerf the right thing. Make blast on fire field only grants 2 stacks of mights instead of 3 stacks.

nerf max might stacks in pvp to 10, nerf stats on celestial, nerf int sigil, issue solved

Don’t nerf something that will have a global effect to other classes in the game. Don’t nerf an aspect of d/d Celes Ele when it would effect other builds of celes.
Focus on revising x/x/x/6/6 builds. Dagger’s might stacking abilities or sustaining, heal abilities. Or a mixture of the two. I personally think their overall healing should be reduced by 15-20% and they’ll be “ok”. Besides heavy condition classes are their counter.

Certain classes can add might.. it’s easily regulated. 20% reduction of celes ele’s stacking may help in 1v1 scenarios but in the end a bunk guard and warrior can always top them off…. imo.

Leave elementalist as is.

Make boon corruption, boon theft, boon removal have better prioritization of affecting the highest/longest duration boons.

Boon hate= (x) value% damage increase for each boon(as opposed to each unique boon)

Boon removal targets highest stack/longest duration boons first.

Boon corruption targets highest stack/longest duration boons as opposed to what it currently does of only affecting one single stack of maximum stacked boon.

Weakening ele in PvP only weakens them in PvE as well where their boon stacking abilities aren’t a issue. Increasing boon hate/removal/corruption has no impact on PvE play due to 98% of creature design lacks any form of boon. This makes boon manipulation the ideal resolution to boon stacking stacking builds. This means players can purposefully opt to run anti boon traits and/or weapon skills/utilities, or they can run a more centric build to perform in other ways. The choice is theirs.

Anti boon techniques currently carry a large RnG factor and under perform in general. Make them targeted and specific so they have some actual teeth.