Guild Wars 2

So the current gamemode wasn’t enough off a MOBA ripoff for Aanet? 5v5, objective based, 3 lanes/3 points? Do Aanet honestly think that’s why it failed? Weren’t the hundreds of threads on release begging you to stop trying to be a MOBA with the objective based PVP enough of a tell?
MMO PVP is NOTHING LIKE a MOBA, each class has 20+ skills at their disposal, multiply that by 10 and 5v5 combat becomes a AOE zergfest, just like Battlegrounds in WOW. This is the exact reason 5v5 (and RBGs) failed in WOW, and is a complete dead bracket right now. WoW, FF14, WS, SWTOR all went with 3v3/4v4 arena as their main PVP gamemode for this reason. MMO PvP is complex enough as it is, just keeping track of 3 classes skills at one time in a 3v3 (60+ Skills) while managing your cooldowns perfectly in coordination with your teammates is what MMO PVP is about.

You DON’T need to make EVERYTHING objective based. GW2 has been out almost 2 years and players in hotjoin STILL don’t care about playing ring around the rosey in the circles, do you honestly think anyone outside top tier pvpers will care for all the objectives in your MOBA gamemode? This isn’t a MOBA where you only have 5 skills and click to move, simple combat systems. MOBAs NEED objectives because the combat is so SIMPLE.

New players already get a headache when learning a new MMO from the vast number a skills each class has (Which you NEED to know for PVP), then you want them to master all your objectives in PVP, AND ontop of all that somehow find 4 players with similar skill level/schedule/timezone/comparability just so they can enter SPVP? How many gokitten barriers of entry do you need? In almost every other MMO you just need to find 1 or 2 similar players (Which is easy because they have a DUELING system that doesn’t require a ridiculous KOTH server and a 10min wait) and you can just go straight into rated arena, and duke it out like men and learn the other classes abilities as you go. Without getting yelled at and getting a headache from not knowing what Orbs do, or what a guild lord is, what’s the point in standing in the circles on the ground etc.
Maybe you should start looking at other MMOs PVP gamemodes instead of MOBAS and ask yourself why they are successfull/failed Aanet. Why did 5v5 fail in WOW yet 3v3/2v2 were so popular? Why did RBGS fail in WOW whilst arena flourished? Food for thought.

There is so point in what you saying. Still I am very interested how this moba mode will pan out. If that is going be something like Smite then it will be ok. Adding additional mechanics is not best idea for me unless this gonna be so crucial that both teams will get to them then yes they will bring more intense action. Hard to tell we need to try and see. Remember Gw2 is most objective oriented mmo pvp which is good.
There is one problem for some reason they allowed random arenas but they did not bring mode where you can have simple deathmatch to cater everybody and to make other builds viable. They have even deathmatch map. That has no sense.
My idea I will say many times. Remove Hotjoin it just give bad name to our PVP. Give us additional mode Unranked team vs team deathmatch where you can sign in 2 or 3 man teams only. Part team is critical no random solo que for that at all !!!
Solves every problem.

Why 5v5 failed reason is simple it is very hard to get 5 people in same time in this busy world. Same 5 people which you enjoy playing with. There is nothing more to it.
That was reason I did not play much or anybody 5v5 in wow.
2v2 has least balance but you need only one friend online and it is not chaotic same 3v3 which is perfect.
Bring this 2v2 3v3 team deathmatch it takes no effort almost to make it. Can be one one or few smaller maps which are already in place.

Complaining about a gamemode that has not been released yet, and had thus no impact on the competitive scene whatsoever… Yet, said gamemode is bad and doomed to fail, said by someone with the following in his signature:

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

I think this is a classic “It is not what I wanted! Give me what I want because I want it!!”

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Complaining about a gamemode that has not been released yet, and had thus no impact on the competitive scene whatsoever… Yet, said gamemode is bad and doomed to fail, said by someone with the following in his signature:

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

I think this is a classic “It is not what I wanted! Give me what I want because I want it!!”

If you don’t like opinions then you should probably stay away from the forums.
I don’t know why your emphasizing “I” because I clearly gave evidence to show that both 5v5 AND objective based MMO PvP has failed in the past with a very large sample size. (the largest possible mmo sample size)

You gave “Evidence” which is not in any way related to this game or it’s predecessor…

GW2 is not WoW, and neither will it ever cater to the same crowd of people since the gameplay and the core of the combat system is vastly different…

If you are unaware, which you are considering you use arguements with a nice amount of “Shifts” to emphasis on “Your truth” rather than what reality brings, Stronghold has more ties to Guild vs Guild The Jade Quarry and Fort Aspenwood than a traditional Moba to be fair, and saying this gamemode FAILED (shift for more emphasis, did I do it right?) is just an ignorant statement…

Also, just because in your eyes and evidence this gamemode will “Fail” – what will Anet do? Not release it because you don’t want it? Jolly, that will be for the best – maybe they need to push the still unknown release date even more because apparently a guy with a Glass Ball and Amazing past experiences about a Game that has no ties to GW2 says it will be bad and they need to release some other gamemode… Somehow…

so you’re angry about the gamemode

k

Just because wow player rages about stronghold makes me want to play this mode even more. Thank you dimizizi for recomendation!

Considering that Guild Wars 1’s (fantastic) GvG was effectively a moba before mobas were cool, I am completely okay with this.

He’s actually right though

Deathmatch needs to be an option – no objectives

It would easily be the most popular game mode

Narkodx.1472:

Deathmatch needs to be an option – no objectives
It would easily be the most popular game mode

I seriously doubt this. There is a reason why courtyard is not voted often. And it is not that it is about teams. It is about missing objectives.

So what was the purpose of your post? Do you think Arennaet is going to suddenly say, you know what dimyzuka.7051 is right we should scrap stronghold.

It might be a good idea not to assume everybody except you is stupid. If you want to make an argument against something, do it using facts don’t assume nobody will see through your terrible dumb arguments.

dimyzuka.7051:

So the current gamemode wasn’t enough off a MOBA ripoff for Aanet? 5v5, objective based, 3 lanes/3 points?

Do you seriously think those mechanics were invented by MOBAs??

You wrote so much about something you haven’t even played.

At least wait for the mode to be released before you tell Anet it’s wrong.

To be fair: the current game mode is more of a “shooter rip-off” than a moba rip-off. Capture point game modes are essentially in all shooter games and only found their way into MMO’s recently.

Also you are right with 5v5 beeing a clusterkitten and this is exactly why Anet decided to implement objective based game modes. By having multiple things on a map that need player attention you guarantee to split up the teams. This in turn creates pvp encounter with less players making the experience less zergy and more about small scale battles (1-3 versus 1-3). So this is pretty much what you want anyways.

Stronghold has atleast 3 objectives at the moment: offense, defense, supply running. By having only one objective you either need to reduce team size like you suggested, or you end up in a zergfest. How big of an influence each of those objectives has and how much players you need for them can only be speculated about at this point in time.

Also in regards to “team sizes to big”: GW2 currently allows you to queue with 0-4 additional people. So no matter how big or small your circle of pvp interested friends is, you can queue up with them. While this is a point for controversy (pre made vs pug) it also lessens the barrier of entry and is a better option than in most games where you can either go full premade or queue with max 1 additional person.

silvermember.8941:

So what was the purpose of your post? Do you think Arennaet is going to suddenly say, you know what dimyzuka.7051 is right we should scrap stronghold.

It might be a good idea not to assume everybody except you is stupid. If you want to make an argument against something, do it using facts don’t assume nobody will see through your terrible dumb arguments.

So much wrong in this post. Yea, i definitely expected Aanet to scrap the expansion and their new gamemode after reading my post. Which is obviously emphasized by my “food for thought” comment at the end. Your reading comprehension is amazing. I’m impressed you can use a computer.

“Do it using facts”? I’m not sure I could fit more facts into my original post. But you’re either illiterate or kittened so ill repost some of them for you.
-5v5 failed in WoW. Fact.
-Nearly every other MMO on the market (WOW, FF14,SWTOR,Wildstar) has gone with 3v3/4v4 deathmatch as the main PVP gamemode. Fact.
-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.
-Most players ignore objectives in Hotjoin. Fact.
-Finding 4 players on the same timezone/skill level/commitment/schedule is very hard, especially with gw2 small pvp playerbase. Fact.

These are all undeniable ‘Facts’. Are they irrelevant to the success of the new gamemode? Maybe. But saying I had no facts just shows your lack of reading comprehension.
Please enlighten me of my “terrible dumb arguments” btw. I would really like to know. This is my opinion, and I really hope that I am wrong, but nothing i’ve seen so far has convinced me otherwise, especially not from your reply filled with nerd rage and little substance.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

You gave “Evidence” which is not in any way related to this game or it’s predecessor…

GW2 is not WoW, and neither will it ever cater to the same crowd of people since the gameplay and the core of the combat system is vastly different…

Usually when you’re creating a product you do Market research, where you analyse your competitors, and see what they did good and bad. I’m just pointing out that the new gamemode consists of many factors that failed in other MMO’s.

Saying WoW or other MMOs are “not in any way related to this game” is just ignorant. Not only are they competition but the player crossover is HUGE.

You do understand that simply saying something is a fact doesn’t actually make it so, right?

Facts are usually accompanied with hard data demonstrating that they are, indeed, facts.

ex:

dimyzuka.7051:

-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.

“Overwhelming” is not an objective state, it is subjective.

You can state that something is overwhelming for you, and that is a factual statement. You do not have any information to determine whether it is overwhelming for anyone else outside of a few anecdotal responses from other players.

dimyzuka.7051:

-Most players ignore objectives in Hotjoin. Fact.

Have you polled a statistically significant portion of the player base to determine this?
In the case of players that admit to ignoring objectives in hotjoin, ave you determined whether that attitude is a constant or if it fluctuates based on any number of factors(example: certain maps, certain classes, time of day, etc..) ?

dimyzuka.7051:

Usually when you’re creating a product you do Market research, where you analyse your competitors, and see what they did good and bad.

Your market research somehow skipped what was popular in the predecessor of this game – care to explain why, or do you want to hold another arguements in SHIFTLOCK as to why you dislike the things to come?

Or are you just going to make another flawed arguement? Because then I can just go and wait until Stronghold gets released and enjoy the crap out of it… Because that is what I am gonna do, play the game, and enjoy it – and you cannot stop me

dimyzuka.7051:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Complaining about a gamemode that has not been released yet, and had thus no impact on the competitive scene whatsoever… Yet, said gamemode is bad and doomed to fail, said by someone with the following in his signature:

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

I think this is a classic “It is not what I wanted! Give me what I want because I want it!!”

If you don’t like opinions then you should probably stay away from the forums.

If you can’t handle criticism then dont make threads.

My 8yo cousin could have made this qq thread. She also understands the differences between Stronghold and a true 35m long MOBA game.

You can hardly compare the two.

The only thing we agree on is the need of 2v2 and 3v3 modes.

dimyzuka.7051:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Complaining about a gamemode that has not been released yet, and had thus no impact on the competitive scene whatsoever… Yet, said gamemode is bad and doomed to fail, said by someone with the following in his signature:

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

I think this is a classic “It is not what I wanted! Give me what I want because I want it!!”

If you don’t like opinions then you should probably stay away from the forums.
I don’t know why your emphasizing “I” because I clearly gave evidence to show that both 5v5 AND objective based MMO PvP has failed in the past with a very large sample size. (the largest possible mmo sample size)

I do not belive he has an issue with folks having an opinion. I believe his issue is with uninformed opinions. I for one agree that your opinion is very uninformed at this stage.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

dimyzuka.7051:

Usually when you’re creating a product you do Market research, where you analyse your competitors, and see what they did good and bad.

Your market research somehow skipped what was popular in the predecessor of this game – care to explain why, or do you want to hold another arguements in SHIFTLOCK as to why you dislike the things to come?

Or are you just going to make another flawed arguement? Because then I can just go and wait until Stronghold gets released and enjoy the crap out of it… Because that is what I am gonna do, play the game, and enjoy it – and you cannot stop me

In Market research there’s a thing called ‘Sample Size’. It just so happens that WoW has 2-3 times the sample size of Gw1, which means the numbers hold more weight. Also in Market Research you also focus on trends and timeframe, GW1 was released 10 years ago, I can name a ton of things that worked 10 years ago but hold absolutely no weight in modern game design. The games i mentioned (WoW/FF14/WS/SWTOR) are all still being played at this moment by millions of players, so are still very relevant when analysing gaming trends. Keep telling me about flawed arguments though, and keep sucking that Aanet candy.

dimyzuka.7051:

silvermember.8941:

So what was the purpose of your post? Do you think Arennaet is going to suddenly say, you know what dimyzuka.7051 is right we should scrap stronghold.

It might be a good idea not to assume everybody except you is stupid. If you want to make an argument against something, do it using facts don’t assume nobody will see through your terrible dumb arguments.

So much wrong in this post. Yea, i definitely expected Aanet to scrap the expansion and their new gamemode after reading my post. Which is obviously emphasized by my “food for thought” comment at the end. Your reading comprehension is amazing. I’m impressed you can use a computer.

“Do it using facts”? I’m not sure I could fit more facts into my original post. But you’re either illiterate or kittened so ill repost some of them for you.
-5v5 failed in WoW. Fact.
-Nearly every other MMO on the market (WOW, FF14,SWTOR,Wildstar) has gone with 3v3/4v4 deathmatch as the main PVP gamemode. Fact.
-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.
-Most players ignore objectives in Hotjoin. Fact.
-Finding 4 players on the same timezone/skill level/commitment/schedule is very hard, especially with gw2 small pvp playerbase. Fact.

These are all undeniable ‘Facts’. Are they irrelevant to the success of the new gamemode? Maybe. But saying I had no facts just shows your lack of reading comprehension.
Please enlighten me of my “terrible dumb arguments” btw. I would really like to know. This is my opinion, and I really hope that I am wrong, but nothing i’ve seen so far has convinced me otherwise, especially not from your reply filled with nerd rage and little substance.

Someone seems to be having a temper tantrum.

Claiming something is your opinion doesn’t protect you from criticism. That is not how opinions work, it seems your school system has failed to teach you something so basic.

The point being opinions can be wrong and stupid, and your post is the perfect case study for that.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

You do understand that simply saying something is a fact doesn’t actually make it so, right?

Facts are usually accompanied with hard data demonstrating that they are, indeed, facts.

ex:

dimyzuka.7051:

-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.

“Overwhelming” is not an objective state, it is subjective.

So you’re telling me that keeping track of 200 abilities/cooldowns at once isn’t overwhelming? You’re going to have to show me some evidence because it is actually a fact that keeping track of 200 abilities is overwhelming for myself and other players I have spoken with. That is a fact.
According to the Miller’s acticle, human short term memory can keep track of 7+2 objects at once. That is consistent with my experiences, keeping track of 1 characters abilities (10-20) is a struggle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two

Infact I watched Sodapopping rage log from Gw2 the other day after Phantaram literally went through every class and showed him all 200+ abitlities. Sodapoppin became overwhelmed (He said so) then logged off Gw2 to play H1Z1. This is a fact.

Nice try though. You know well that the fact I was pointing out was the large number of abilities in play in 5v5 MMO gameplay.

silvermember.8941:

dimyzuka.7051:

silvermember.8941:

So what was the purpose of your post? Do you think Arennaet is going to suddenly say, you know what dimyzuka.7051 is right we should scrap stronghold.

It might be a good idea not to assume everybody except you is stupid. If you want to make an argument against something, do it using facts don’t assume nobody will see through your terrible dumb arguments.

So much wrong in this post. Yea, i definitely expected Aanet to scrap the expansion and their new gamemode after reading my post. Which is obviously emphasized by my “food for thought” comment at the end. Your reading comprehension is amazing. I’m impressed you can use a computer.

“Do it using facts”? I’m not sure I could fit more facts into my original post. But you’re either illiterate or kittened so ill repost some of them for you.
-5v5 failed in WoW. Fact.
-Nearly every other MMO on the market (WOW, FF14,SWTOR,Wildstar) has gone with 3v3/4v4 deathmatch as the main PVP gamemode. Fact.
-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.
-Most players ignore objectives in Hotjoin. Fact.
-Finding 4 players on the same timezone/skill level/commitment/schedule is very hard, especially with gw2 small pvp playerbase. Fact.

These are all undeniable ‘Facts’. Are they irrelevant to the success of the new gamemode? Maybe. But saying I had no facts just shows your lack of reading comprehension.
Please enlighten me of my “terrible dumb arguments” btw. I would really like to know. This is my opinion, and I really hope that I am wrong, but nothing i’ve seen so far has convinced me otherwise, especially not from your reply filled with nerd rage and little substance.

Someone seems to be having a temper tantrum.

Claiming something is your opinion doesn’t protect you from criticism. That is not how opinions work, it seems your school system has failed to teach you something so basic.

The point being opinions can be wrong and stupid, and your post is the perfect case study for that.

Maybe my school system has failed me, but at least I understand the difference between a fact and a opinion.

How about you tell me which of my ‘dumb arguments’ makes my opinion so invalid instead of throwing kitteny insults?

dimyzuka.7051:

So the current gamemode wasn’t enough off a MOBA ripoff for Aanet? 5v5, objective based, 3 lanes/3 points? Do Aanet honestly think that’s why it failed? Weren’t the hundreds of threads on release begging you to stop trying to be a MOBA with the objective based PVP enough of a tell?
MMO PVP is NOTHING LIKE a MOBA, each class has 20+ skills at their disposal, multiply that by 10 and 5v5 combat becomes a AOE zergfest, just like Battlegrounds in WOW. This is the exact reason 5v5 (and RBGs) failed in WOW, and is a complete dead bracket right now. WoW, FF14, WS, SWTOR all went with 3v3/4v4 arena as their main PVP gamemode for this reason. MMO PvP is complex enough as it is, just keeping track of 3 classes skills at one time in a 3v3 (60+ Skills) while managing your cooldowns perfectly in coordination with your teammates is what MMO PVP is about.

You DON’T need to make EVERYTHING objective based. GW2 has been out almost 2 years and players in hotjoin STILL don’t care about playing ring around the rosey in the circles, do you honestly think anyone outside top tier pvpers will care for all the objectives in your MOBA gamemode? This isn’t a MOBA where you only have 5 skills and click to move, simple combat systems. MOBAs NEED objectives because the combat is so SIMPLE.

New players already get a headache when learning a new MMO from the vast number a skills each class has (Which you NEED to know for PVP), then you want them to master all your objectives in PVP, AND ontop of all that somehow find 4 players with similar skill level/schedule/timezone/comparability just so they can enter SPVP? How many gokitten barriers of entry do you need? In almost every other MMO you just need to find 1 or 2 similar players (Which is easy because they have a DUELING system that doesn’t require a ridiculous KOTH server and a 10min wait) and you can just go straight into rated arena, and duke it out like men and learn the other classes abilities as you go. Without getting yelled at and getting a headache from not knowing what Orbs do, or what a guild lord is, what’s the point in standing in the circles on the ground etc.
Maybe you should start looking at other MMOs PVP gamemodes instead of MOBAS and ask yourself why they are successfull/failed Aanet. Why did 5v5 fail in WOW yet 3v3/2v2 were so popular? Why did RBGS fail in WOW whilst arena flourished? Food for thought.

Making assumptions isn’t good for your health. The game mode has the same level of “What splits shall we do at the start” tactics as Conquest. I should know, I played it today at Rezzed.

The difference between Conquest and Stronghold is very huge but tactical movement and positioning isn’t lost. You still need a roamer, you still need a bunker/Defender, you now need a runner, you now need a Healer….. and any class can fill those roles if the player is very good at it.

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.

dimyzuka.7051:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

You do understand that simply saying something is a fact doesn’t actually make it so, right?

Facts are usually accompanied with hard data demonstrating that they are, indeed, facts.

ex:

dimyzuka.7051:

-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.

“Overwhelming” is not an objective state, it is subjective.

So you’re telling me that keeping track of 200 abilities/cooldowns at once isn’t overwhelming? You’re going to have to show me some evidence because it is actually a fact that keeping track of 200 abilities is overwhelming for myself and other players I have spoken with. That is a fact.
According to the Miller’s acticle, human short term memory can keep track of 7+2 objects at once. That is consistent with my experiences, keeping track of 1 characters abilities (10-20) is a struggle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two

Infact I watched Sodapopping rage log from Gw2 the other day after Phantaram literally went through every class and showed him all 200+ abitlities. Sodapoppin became overwhelmed (He said so) then logged off Gw2 to play H1Z1. This is a fact.

Nice tr-SNIP

All these opinion of yours is not fact.

A person will easily memorize these weapon skills by the time he’s lvl 50. At level 80 he’ll have a pretty good grasp of his traits and skill utilities. I’ve never met a person who couldn’t manage his class because of there being too many skills involved.

You’re making it sound like the UI and Gameplay is overwhelming… anyone would be overwhelmed if I were to list my skills in one sitting.

As far as i’m concerned, you have huge l2p issues.

Halvorn.9831:

Narkodx.1472:

Deathmatch needs to be an option – no objectives
It would easily be the most popular game mode

I seriously doubt this. There is a reason why courtyard is not voted often. And it is not that it is about teams. It is about missing objectives.

I think at this point it is more that the game isn’t balanced around deathmatch and that some profession just do not do well in that.

All in all the new mode isn’t out yet and even once it is out no one is forcing anyone to play it you have choices and option.

If someone wants just deathmatch set up an arena for it, people with come and play if they also share that interest.

dimyzuka.7051:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

You do understand that simply saying something is a fact doesn’t actually make it so, right?

Facts are usually accompanied with hard data demonstrating that they are, indeed, facts.

ex:

dimyzuka.7051:

-GW2 5v5 consists of 20 abilities x 10 (200) that need to be kept track of, which is overwhelming. Fact.

“Overwhelming” is not an objective state, it is subjective.

So you’re telling me that keeping track of 200 abilities/cooldowns at once isn’t overwhelming? You’re going to have to show me some evidence because it is actually a fact that keeping track of 200 abilities is overwhelming for myself and other players I have spoken with. That is a fact.
According to the Miller’s acticle, human short term memory can keep track of 7+2 objects at once. That is consistent with my experiences, keeping track of 1 characters abilities (10-20) is a struggle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two

Infact I watched Sodapopping rage log from Gw2 the other day after Phantaram literally went through every class and showed him all 200+ abitlities. Sodapoppin became overwhelmed (He said so) then logged off Gw2 to play H1Z1. This is a fact.

Nice try though. You know well that the fact I was pointing out was the large number of abilities in play in 5v5 MMO gameplay.

Are you complaining about the number of skills from a players point of view, or a viewers?

If its players then that is l2p. Any decent player, with time, can learn the necessary skills/mechanics.

If it is the viewers, then stronghold should actually help with that because it has a single objective, which is kill the lord.

OP, have you heard of Fort Aspenwood and Jade Quarry of Guild Wars 1? I’m one of those clamoring for their return in Guild Wars 2, or atleast something similar. I’ll make an estimate, I think I spent my GW1 game time 60% in Random Arenas, 35% in FA and JQ, and 5% PvE (story mode of base game plus 3 expansions and the daily Zaishen missions combined, not really a PvE guy). As for the inspiration behind FA or JQ, that’s another discussion altogether haha. I kittening love FA and JQ! I miss playing those maps. You have a mix duels and skulduggery, you have to outsmart your opponent and you really need to work as a team. My wish though is if they’ll make a 10v10 map instead of 5v5. I don’t know, I think it’s much fun playing 10v10 in a large competitive map like FA and JQ (kitten suxons btw).

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fort_aspenwood
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Jade_Quarry

As we are talking about Stronghold, I’d like arenanet to fix their netcode fix to prevent speedhacking/teleport hacks.