Guild Wars 2

So im having a issue with the rating system as are most people.

Im also having problems with duo queing because some of my guild mates/friends are at lower levels.

So we played 2 games and game 1 we won 500-4XX, i could check my game log if its super important but this was a very close match. I got +6 and he got +15. Next match we have a full signet warrior on our team and a thief who wasnt the most helpful.

We lost huge like 176-500 and i lost 20.

This is my issue with match making. If im solo queing and i play against top level players i lose big. Not knowing each teams MMR is frustrated many of us i believe. Now im being punished for playing with my friends in ranked, they also might be being punished for playing with me because once again we dont get to see both teams MMR.

I really feel Anet needs to address the +/- of matches as well as allowing us to see team MMR to show them what is wrong. For instance if 1 teams MMR is 5,000 and the other is 4,200 the 4,200 team shouldnt lose 15-25 points.

If Anet wanted ranked to be competitive then they needed to make it solo que only. they also needed to fix there leader board.

But most importantly they need address Match Making. Im sorry but after 4 seasons and grinding threw 3 of them to legendary. I dont want to play another season being punished because i want to play with friends.

Sooooo, the rating system worked?

You played teams well under your personal rating (seems like they were closer to your friend’s rating). When you won, you don’t get many points. When you lose, you lose a lot because the system expects you not to lose.

A sample size of 2 is not enough to draw a proper conclusion.

And to add on to exedore, it’s hard to draw conclusions when not all the info is known for all players plus the two teams. Hopefully there are enough complaints about the hidden Ratings that it pushes Evan’s and the PvP Devs hand to show all players Ratings and Average Team Mmrs after matches, that way players can draw better conclusions and be able to address any perceived issues properly, right now they is not enough solid information to make any grounded conclusions either for or against the system besides the info provided to us on how the sysytem is supposed to work.

I have noticed when I queued with a buddy of significantly less Rating than me that even with the rating boost we had as a team that it averaged our Ratings together due to the quality of Opponents we faced and were teamed with, where I won 2-4 Rating and he won 13-20 every win out of the handful of matches we played, his rating was between 700-800 and mine was 1470ish when we started and it finished closer to 1k after the couple matches while I was worse of from two matches losing approx 20-23 rating each loss.

The main problem with matchmaking is an issue that ANet will probably struggle with for some time to come: having a healthy population of players queuing concurrently. At least 50-100 per sub-division (bronze 1/2/3, silver 1/2/3, etc), or more.

It’s the problem that top 10 players are facing – with not enough people at 2k+ rating, they will get matched up with players in the 1800-1900 range, or lower, if they have to be (because of not enough players queuing concurrently).

Exedore.6320:

Sooooo, the rating system worked?

You played teams well under your personal rating (seems like they were closer to your friend’s rating). When you won, you don’t get many points. When you lose, you lose a lot because the system expects you not to lose.

A sample size of 2 is not enough to draw a proper conclusion.

Of course not but i simply have many questions about the match making.

For instance in the game we lost the thief couldnt add anything and the warrior was full signet enough said for that. What is there MMR?

Like for instance i was almost at 1700, he was a little over 1200. Lets just say my teams MMR is at 6500. That would be 4 1,200 rating and me. Then the other team is 6,700.

By match making numbers its a good match. Yet that could mean the other team had 5 players with over 1300 rating each which would mean we were expected to lose and the 4 other players are expected to out play the 4 other players on my team.

So many questions, like if im expected to win ok ill lose 20 points but the thing is ive never won +20. All my wins give me 10-15 and ive taken some serious losses. Which i sit back and wonder about the +/-

I have discussed with blaquefyre on another thread but i simply dont understand the logic behind it.

Ive played many of the top players in the game, as expected i lost and i lost points between the 16-20 point range. Many of the top players have talked about the huge drops by simply losing 2 games.

If the match making is fair trying to give people 50/50 games then why do we have such huge point drop offs in rating? Why do some of the top players have 85% + win percentages yet some are at 55% or even 60% and they have the same rating?

Another for instance was i had Edison on my team. He was playing theif and he was clearly the best player on either team. We won and i got +10, and this is a confusing factor for me. He vaults into the top 50 or so (and he should) but why do i go up so little and how much did the enemy team lose when they are probably expected to lose?

I just have questions about the system and im trying to make sense of it and the things being by Anet dont add up to me.

Rashy.4165:

The main problem with matchmaking is an issue that ANet will probably struggle with for some time to come: having a healthy population of players queuing concurrently. At least 50-100 per sub-division (bronze 1/2/3, silver 1/2/3, etc), or more.

It’s the problem that top 10 players are facing – with not enough people at 2k+ rating, they will get matched up with players in the 1800-1900 range, or lower, if they have to be (because of not enough players queuing concurrently).

See im ok with that. I just need to know, i wouldnt be fair if you get 2-3 ESL players on 1 side and none on the other.

Lets say you have 3 players with 1800 + rating on one side with a 2 1400 players. Then the other team has 5 players between 1500-1700. On paper both team will have a rating of around 8,000.

The problem becomes there 1800 player who who gets into the 1 vs 1 fight will win that fight. Then the 2 other players will be potentially be better in the team fight which will roll in there favor because they will have the better player in those fights.

I have a problem with that, now if Anet simply did what they did in the old solo que i be fine with it. I was ranked and had a good win % and it was the same as the top tier players win %. But i knew they were better and they had there win percentage lowered because they were facing each other.

Its very clear that alot of them are using ALT accounts and playing few games and alway duo queing to maintain a top rank on the leader board.

Ill say again im ok with playing against the best players in the game, i just would like a more balanced match making and maybe one that would actually show me what is happening.

@kdaddy.5431

Was your friend still in placement matches when this happened? I was doing placement with a friend and we had a clearly mismatched player one game (solo rushes Foefire lord at 100 point mark and dies). I haven’t seen anything that bad since getting out of placement matches.

Top players lose a lot in a loss because they’re rated so much higher than their opponents. This is offset by them winning many more games than they lose. The extremes of the rating system will not be 50% W:L. When you have no one above you [or below you for the very bottom] and few people near you, the games which can be created for you favor one outcome heavily over the other.

In your player example, he could have had decay, which prevented him from showing up in the top. Each game played removes 100 points (1 day’s worth) of decay. So he might have earned 5 points for a win, but gone up +105 with decay removal.

I gotta say, division/tier aside, it seems to me a lot of people have a lot of questions about wtf is going on with MM.

At legendary division it can easily be explained by a lack of population, but does lack of population truly account for all inequities at lower divisions? I’m not sure it does.

Even duo with within a division (difference being in tier) appears to cause volatile changes to +/- on rating points.

What kinda burns me is that Anet won’t be open. Yeah there are heaps of crybabies and trolls on the forum, but there is just as much if not more helpful and constructive feedback. Why don’t they take advantage of the biggest resource available to them; their playerbase?

Anyhoo, I’ve said farewell to competitive play this season. I am purely focusing now on how to improve my own game, since it is apparent I have to be pro league skill to carry.

Exedore.6320:

@kdaddy.5431

Was your friend still in placement matches when this happened? I was doing placement with a friend and we had a clearly mismatched player one game (solo rushes Foefire lord at 100 point mark and dies). I haven’t seen anything that bad since getting out of placement matches.

Top players lose a lot in a loss because they’re rated so much higher than their opponents. This is offset by them winning many more games than they lose. The extremes of the rating system will not be 50% W:L. When you have no one above you [or below you for the very bottom] and few people near you, the games which can be created for you favor one outcome heavily over the other.

In your player example, he could have had decay, which prevented him from showing up in the top. Each game played removes 100 points (1 day’s worth) of decay. So he might have earned 5 points for a win, but gone up +105 with decay removal.

Nope he had played about 52 games. He won 24 and lost 28. He has been pretty active daily doing 1-2 games a day.

Today i had some more matches like the ones ive described. People are wrioting stuff in the team chat like we didnt have a chance from the start. And we actually played all the way threw.

Im just not happy with ranked atm, i mean cant play with firends of a different level otherwise potentially dropped 2-3 divisions by simply going 5-4. Not knowing even if the matches were fair.

Simply put i dont trust Anet when saying this is a fair system, or the rating system is fair, or the +/- of games are fair.

I want to see every ones MMR now not just teams. Because if 1 player is 1100 when the rest are at 1500/1600/1700/1800 in a game. Hes gonna screw it up and its not there fault.

I mean this is Season 5 and Anet was very quick to talk on the forum when the season first started. Now after people have actually got 50-100-150 games into it. There are alot of questions to be answered and this is where Anets quarterly patches help them.

Yeah +1. I was in the game you screenshotted and the teams were no way balanced. We had a pro league duo + our own duo (we even beat the other duo the previous game) so both of our duos were > yours.

Idk how this system works but it’s a mess right now.

Heres my issue with that match. They gave us the duo of necro and thief and you guys got the ele as a solo.

Im not running a proper 1 vs 1 warrior build so i can do more damage in team fights but i couldnt get 1 team fight.

You guys were literally killing them before i could make a decision on where to go.

Its insane to me that you had better DPS, better sustain and you guys overall were a million times better rotating. Why am i gonna lose 12 points on a match that was clearly decided before the start.

I’m not judging you or anything like if that was me instead of you I’d be losing just as bad lol. The problem is those guys are #3/#4 on the leaderboards (2000+ MMR) and the rest of us in that game were probably 1600-1700 at best. Like when you said rotations were on point it’s because we could literally just sit on clock tower and watch you guys respawn because you couldn’t regroup when those 2 are destroying everyone.

ANet shouldn’t match them up in our games at all and if they did you shouldn’t lose 12 and the correct thing to do would be +1 or -1 at most since the teams are so lopsided.

I’ve been in your shoes a lot solo queueing which was why I nagged my friend to duo with me… the matchmaking system kinda sucks around gold<->plat.

I hope Evan actually pulls up that match and tells us how the hell that was a fair game tbh.

kdaddy.5431:

Simply put i dont trust Anet when saying this is a fair system, or the rating system is fair, or the +/- of games are fair.

OMG this!!!!

So in that latest screenshot, what was your rating change? I’m guessing it was single digits.

Exedore.6320:

So in that latest screenshot, what was your rating change? I’m guessing it was single digits.

No even after that match and after going around 2-8/9 last night i lost double digits in all but one. I left the game last night in a mood because last game was -13.

fishball.7204:

I’m not judging you or anything like if that was me instead of you I’d be losing just as bad lol. The problem is those guys are #3/#4 on the leaderboards (2000+ MMR) and the rest of us in that game were probably 1600-1700 at best. Like when you said rotations were on point it’s because we could literally just sit on clock tower and watch you guys respawn because you couldn’t regroup when those 2 are destroying everyone.

ANet shouldn’t match them up in our games at all and if they did you shouldn’t lose 12 and the correct thing to do would be +1 or -1 at most since the teams are so lopsided.

I’ve been in your shoes a lot solo queueing which was why I nagged my friend to duo with me… the matchmaking system kinda sucks around gold<->plat.

I hope Evan actually pulls up that match and tells us how the hell that was a fair game tbh.

Ohh no your team destroyed the team im on so any critique of my game you had i probably needed to here it.

But going back to what you said in your post. You guys had 2 duo ques better then the on one on my team as well as 2 players far superior then anyone else on the map.

This brings me back to playing with my friend, its to me that the rating system and match making are just bogus.

I have no problem facing the Pro League level players, none at all but i do have a problem when im losing double digit points against them and i also have a problem losing 20+ points playing with a friend in a much lower division not knowing the teams MMR.

Ive Duo qued with people in bronze/silver/gold/platinum and it was easier to duo que with the plat player. We went 4-1 but when i duo with the bronze and silver players i always go 1-1 that day.

Just something Anet needs to address but that wont happen till Season 6.

Last night was odd, first losing streak this season and every loss was -21 or -22. Only win was +6.

@kdaddy.5431

It’s hard to get a good picture of what’s happening without all the information together. There are also an unknown with how ANet implemented Glicko2 (who’s rating sets are compared to determine gain/loss – individual vs. each individual, individual vs. team, team vs. team).

If I were ANet, I’d look into your specific case a bit more, but at this point, I don’t see anything extremely wrong. Some of it seems to be fluctuation at the far end of the distribution from low population.

Exedore.6320:

@kdaddy.5431

It’s hard to get a good picture of what’s happening without all the information together. There are also an unknown with how ANet implemented Glicko2 (who’s rating sets are compared to determine gain/loss – individual vs. each individual, individual vs. team, team vs. team).

If I were ANet, I’d look into your specific case a bit more, but at this point, I don’t see anything extremely wrong. Some of it seems to be fluctuation at the far end of the distribution from low population.

Ohh of course.

I wont show the real picture out of respect for the other players.

But i can tell you that every so games im facing elite level players. Top 100 on the leader board with a duo que partner. When i lose to them im losing alot of points.

When i que with friends at lower levels i win nothing and lose even more points.

When i solo que by myself on certain days im getting some of the most lopsided matches and losing big points.

Thats my whole issue with this season, for instance Season 1 i was in Leg 2 and 4-5 straight games i faced a 4 man PZ team. I did not like the PiP system because i was put in matches i could not win and i would lose something because of it.

Here i am again in S5, put in games once again i can not win/carry and being punished for it. In many cases the best player in the game is on the other team as well as the 2nd best player.

Im more then ok if this is suppose to be my rating, im been Gold 3- platinum 2 this whole time and i quit last night before falling to gold 2. I quit because there is literally nothing i could do in these matches and everyone in the game knows it.

Heres the thing, ive been taking alot of pictures of my matches. When you go back and run threw the names i question match making and its +/- system.

In the games i lost with a lower rated player, the other players in the game had higher ratings to make up for the difference between myself and my duo. So even in these matches it was trying to 50/50. Yet in my solo que matches they werent doing the same thing with some of the blow outs i had.

Gwaihir.1745:

Last night was odd, first losing streak this season and every loss was -21 or -22. Only win was +6.

right, system working at its best

kdaddy.5431:

Gwaihir.1745:

Last night was odd, first losing streak this season and every loss was -21 or -22. Only win was +6.

right, system working at its best

I was duo queuing with a skilled partner who is still in silver. It seems the matcher was trying to force our rating to be the same. When I solo I get +15 and -12 mostly. However over 10 games duo with me in gold every single game was -22 or +6. Oddly consistent considering I didn’t see the same people many times.

Gwaihir.1745:

kdaddy.5431:

Gwaihir.1745:

Last night was odd, first losing streak this season and every loss was -21 or -22. Only win was +6.

right, system working at its best

I was duo queuing with a skilled partner who is still in silver. It seems the matcher was trying to force our rating to be the same. When I solo I get +15 and -12 mostly. However over 10 games duo with me in gold every single game was -22 or +6. Oddly consistent considering I didn’t see the same people many times.

Yeah i dont like this, this was my complaint from the start of this.

Like if you played 10 games and won 8. He would have gained 48 and lost 44.

Its the whole reason people look at the leader board with a odd eye. Especially if in those 2 matches you lost, the other team is clearly better.

So you lost 22 in a game you potentially were suppose to lose, we dont know. Anet wont share any info with its community.

When you duo que isn’t the lower player bumped to your rating for matching purposes? Otherwise it could make sense if I was queuing against more silver tier players.

Gwaihir.1745:

When you duo que isn’t the lower player bumped to your rating for matching purposes? Otherwise it could make sense if I was queuing against more silver tier players.

You and your duo partner get your Mmr Averaged and then a Rating boost applied.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gwaihir.1745:

When you duo que isn’t the lower player bumped to your rating for matching purposes? Otherwise it could make sense if I was queuing against more silver tier players.

You and your duo partner get your Mmr Averaged and then a Rating boost applied.

Ok so i relooked and added the players from my pic at the top.

Fishball and his friend had slightly higher ranks then I and one person on my team had a higher rank then me.

The other 2 duo que on the other team are the current number 1 & 2 player.

Obviously this is late MMR ratings but id like to point out they had the best 2nd best 3rd highest rated players on there team as well as the 5th with I having the 6th.

Say what you want but its so obvious that some matches are put together without any thought.

I mean look at the leader board. Id like to point out that the person who Duo que in that match has 2 of the top 5 spots in the pic.

Add yr thoughts/comments here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Let-s-Fix-Ranked-PVP/6451610

MM & MMR definitely need some work.

kdaddy.5431:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Gwaihir.1745:

When you duo que isn’t the lower player bumped to your rating for matching purposes? Otherwise it could make sense if I was queuing against more silver tier players.

You and your duo partner get your Mmr Averaged and then a Rating boost applied.

Ok so i relooked and added the players from my pic at the top.

Fishball and his friend had slightly higher ranks then I and one person on my team had a higher rank then me.

The other 2 duo que on the other team are the current number 1 & 2 player.

Obviously this is late MMR ratings but id like to point out they had the best 2nd best 3rd highest rated players on there team as well as the 5th with I having the 6th.

Say what you want but its so obvious that some matches are put together without any thought.

I mean look at the leader board. Id like to point out that the person who Duo que in that match has 2 of the top 5 spots in the pic.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-Question-3/page/2#post6452642

This is the exact issue I’ve been trying to investigate in my thread here. The mm system is a bit wonky in how it organizes the matches, and it becomes an issue when there aren’t many players in your mmr range in the queue. If you guys ever get the chance to inspect the mmr of the players in your match please feel free to add your results to my thread. Anet’s system only allows me to get this data on about one match per day, so I’m stuck with limited information as I don’t play every day.

I personally have the feeling the system tries to keep me where i am. First it´s hard to carry matches. If you get the worst guy then ist often GG.
So i maintain a positiv win rate. BUT i constantly loose slighly more the i gain which nearly compensates my win rate. I did hit 150 matches this season and am close where i started and half of the matches are blowouts.
I also wonder why i had been placed low silver with 6:4 in placement matches and someone with 4:6 or 5:5 gets in gold ? Adn that screenshot is a negative win rate after over 100 matches maintaining high gold :-(.

Wolfric.9380:

I personally have the feeling the system tries to keep me where i am. First it´s hard to carry matches. If you get the worst guy then ist often GG.
So i maintain a positiv win rate. BUT i constantly loose slighly more the i gain which nearly compensates my win rate. I did hit 150 matches this season and am close where i started and half of the matches are blowouts.
I also wonder why i had been placed low silver with 6:4 in placement matches and someone with 4:6 or 5:5 gets in gold ? Adn that screenshot is a negative win rate after over 100 matches maintaining high gold :-(.

You probably had a lower Mmr to begin with and the players that had the 4:6 had higher, and then it depends on who the people won against during placement matches, the system isn’t based on W/L ratio…. I dont see how people don’t understand this long after the beginning of the season when it’s been explained.