Guild Wars 2

why isnt condi damage being balanced

all i see is nothing but full teams of condi builds

condi eles condi necros condi warriors condi mesmers condi engineers
this new meta is broken beyond comparison due to the nature of conditions not being weakened by armor and before someone says well why dont you run some cleanse noob

unlike cleanse conditions can be reaplied way quickly and all it takes is to focus one player with your group and move to the next target once said target has over 8 conditions with tons of stacks

it was a horrible mistake to implement the new condition system on pvp in the first place as it was designed to be used against world bosses

Rezzet.3614:

why isnt condi damage being balanced

all i see is nothing but full teams of condi builds

condi eles condi necros condi warriors condi mesmers condi engineers
this new meta is broken beyond comparison due to the nature of conditions not being weakened by armor and before someone says well why dont you run some cleanse noob

unlike cleanse conditions can be reaplied way quickly and all it takes is to focus one player with your group and move to the next target once said target has over 8 conditions with tons of stacks

it was a horrible mistake to implement the new condition system on pvp in the first place as it was designed to be used against world bosses

This, should especially change confusion to work the same way as it used to for PvP and WvW only, they used to separate changes between all 3 but for some reason these PvE changes came to all 3.

Not met condi warriors yet. But yes, nearly everything I fight is condi based. I just want burn to be made like other conditions – reduce the strength, increase the duration.

something aint right when 60 + games played only 3 dint have a full enemy team of condi spammers or condi hybrids.

make players immune to condi dmg. Problem solved

condi is not the problem at all, sustain is. condi builds are almost completly out of the meta because of crazy amounts of cleanses. pure condi are occasional guard or necro, nobody else has a useful condi build. classes like ele just outheal everything and are almost imune to condis and eventually they kill you with combination of direct damage and burns. nerfing condis doesnt help at all, if anything bleeds should be buffed.

We’ve had the high burst meta. It really was unhealthy in the unrank soloQ scene where every player was glassy 1shot zerker builds, running with that 1 Bunker Support class on the team. The QQ was so strong that Anet added the Cele amulet. These build types out sustained the Zerker meta, making the meta useless unless you were a Thief.

We still had Condi builds but at the time, all of them were limited to node defending/assaulting (basically only good for 1v1). They were otherwise useless in Tournaments because of the high amounts of Condi Cleanses teams had in team fights. At the time, condi builds absolutely sucked in 2v2/3v3/4v4+ skirmish scenarios.

Ironically, condi builds were actually balanced in SoloQ because players usually didn’t have the team syncronization to soft-counter conditions. So these 15s long conditions ticked for the full duration and was on the same level as other zerker/cele builds because SoloQ players were unsyncronized. Even then, these builds were limited to one role only.

Anet and condi players wanted condi to be more efficient in team fights so they made the changes – it’s now some what OP in the SoloQ scene where players lack team composition (cele ele, necro, 0 cleanses, etc) but “fair” (still highly underpowered) in the Competitive scene where condi cleanses are passed around like candy.

Condi is not the real problem. In my opinion the real problem is the damage as awhole . It is condi or direct , match now have too high damage. I play engi. When i play condi (usually rabid ) i make a lot of condi damage but i have my weaks too ( for example 1 vs 1 with a necro is quite impossible ), i find it balanced . When i play maradeur instead i don’t have the condi damage but sometimes i kill really really too fast. When i am able to block with net shot , with all nades and sometime rifle 5 i kill the target. They should bring down a little the damage for all the classes in my opinion. Maradeur amulet was a fun thing in pvp , ok , but it make much more damage in all the matches and sometime you die and you can do nothing

Condi builds rock in spvp cuz unless enemies have aoe condi cleanse teammate they wont survive. Its easy as that → Go condi build like burnguard. look if enemies get bunker/shouter if not GG you will be able to deal insane dmg if they got shouter you need to FOCUS HIM AS HARD AS YOU CAN, if your team manages to kill him(that can be hard cuz shouters are mostly bunkers) its GG, or just dont engage with him around, force enemy to split or stay on def. If anyone comes to you alone without shouter support they are basicly dead (IF YOU DONT MESS IT UP) Even constant 3 burns with rare 6burn spike is deadly cuz its always dealing dmg. Even if you shelter/block spam burn is still dealing dmg each sec in the background. Its kinda like old phantasm mesmer- when mesmers had to drop 3 phantasms and permastealth around waiting for kill. Now you get constant 3 burns applied to you while your enemy is blocking/rolling/blocking/healing around.

Dont get me wrong, BURNING is burst and its FINE! but only if USED AS BURST not CONSTANT undeniable dmg source. There are many counterplays to physical dmg, protection/weakness/aegis/etc there is almost no counter play to condis, protection doesnt negate kitten, theres no way to stack regen ticks to negate it, and ofc any cleanses got CD. Im ok if someone catches me off guard and burns me when i “wasted” my precious CDs, but right now ppl are saying that burnguard is fine and ppl should use condi cleanses… Question is how many? Should i equip every utility spell to clear condi? Should i use every cantrip on ele to just block burns? Should i cast every shout on bunkers to not get burns? where is the line how much players needs to invest to counter something? Also there are almost no spells that are “PURE CONDI CLEAR” and “USED ONLY TO CONDI CLEAR”. If thief uses shadowstep 50s cd(primary thief condi clear) to break stun next 50 sec he will be affected by condis and stuns, cuz this spell is used to counter BOTH of these types of aggresion. Same goes for CLEANSING fire on ele, you can use it for condi clean but also for free burns on enemy if your greedy for dmg. OFC if Condi build sees ur mistake/geediness he should be able to PUNISH you for that, BUT never, and i say NEVER a condi build should be able to force you to BURN EVERY of YOUR CDs to clean and STILL BE ABLE TO JUST KILL YOU.

TL:NR Condi burst is fine but constant burns are bad. Im ok with Condi dmg spike if i missplayed, but im not ok with having to clean every 3 burns every f SEC cuz its NEVERENDING BURNING.

I see where your comming from OP, but your generalizing too broadly. Conditions themselves are fine. It is specific skills working with specific traits and runes, to apply to many stacks with too long a duration, to quickly that is the issue.

it is this type of broad complaint thay causes fixes that folks are not happy with. General complaints get general solutions, that do not inharently resolve the issue. So if you desire a resolution, you need to specify what trait, skill, and gear combinations are specifically problematic.

The real problem comes from how the game has been made only around condis and not condis and debuff just like GW1 used to.
That good old system allowed for diverisity and was balancing the meta quite a bit.
Here it’s all about boons and conditions and not so many classes can cleanse a lot of condi in one go. By the way this meta gives a nice advantage to necro condi (or good guardians aswell) BUT I don’t think it’s so much of a problem. I built my all strategy around it and now I win almsot every fight I am into, I still can’t wait for HoT to change my boring as hell ultimate spell but overall I’m pretty happy (playing as a mesmer). Condis can be avoided too if you cc or blind your ennemy, people tend to forget that detail. So I constantly blind my opponent, blast him with confusion and torment and block, dodge and dodge again most attacks as my ennemy dies by himself.

I find this meta much healthier than what it used to be honestly. I still think burning damage is wayyyyyy too overpowered. 9/10 scenarios I die from burning, guardian specially can apply burning way too often and the burst of damage is just trollish as hell. You can die in 3 seconds if you don’t remove the condition instantly and when you have any other condi opponent targeting you well you just die (or not) quite randomly depending solely on if the conditions you cleanse was burning or not. I would LOVE to see some sort of system that makes cleansing prioritizing the bigges stack or duration condis first. Because when you cleanse a 1 sec left 1 stack bleeding when you have like 7 stack of burning killing you like crazy you just feel sooooooo frustrated and it just doesn’t feel right, at this pace it’s not about skill but just about lucky timing.

I can’t believe people have so much trouble with condis. I played against condi engis, condi mesmers, condi rangers, condi guardians, condi necros, and condi warrior in high MMR. Not a single one of these did I ever feel was too overpowered. Maybe it’s because I know exactly how to avoid most of their damage, and if this is the case maybe you should learn how they work too before coming on the forums.

WvW , Spvp, you have to have condi cleans no matter what or else get downed. That’s just it now. You got to balance so you have more sustain or you die.

Rezzet.3614:

why isnt condi damage being balanced

all i see is nothing but full teams of condi builds

condi eles condi necros condi warriors condi mesmers condi engineers
this new meta is broken beyond comparison due to the nature of conditions not being weakened by armor and before someone says well why dont you run some cleanse noob

unlike cleanse conditions can be reaplied way quickly and all it takes is to focus one player with your group and move to the next target once said target has over 8 conditions with tons of stacks

it was a horrible mistake to implement the new condition system on pvp in the first place as it was designed to be used against world bosses

Im sorry but i care to little to actully read every post so dont know IF anyone ssid this earlier. But did you just say “all it takes is to focus one player with your group”? IF you did say that i think you’re very stupid since that works with any kind of build.

Its even less efficient than focus by a power build since the condi stack restriktion. Hope you never play a carry role in dota haha

I still find it amusing how condi players try to defend it. It was the same with the turret engis and the decap engis and the spirit rangers. All those were OP at one point because of a broken spec. Now it is condis that are broken. You can try to deny it, but condi is easy mode right now.

linsalainen.5806:

Its even less efficient than focus by a power build since the condi stack restriktion. Hope you never play a carry role in dota haha

What condition stack restriction, all I see on the wiki is 1500 now, surely it’s possible in PvP.

Chips.7968:

Not met condi warriors yet. But yes, nearly everything I fight is condi based. I just want burn to be made like other conditions – reduce the strength, increase the duration.

Thats because the best condi build you could run on a warrior will come out with HoT :x

On another note

The condition Weakness should reduce the damage conditions do. Its been far too long that this condition only had real impact on power based builds and really needs to be brought up to current Meta standards. Vuln got tweaked so there really is no excuse to not change it.

Maybe with all these weird support builds for HoT anet thinks team comps will bring them to manage the teams conditions, but honestly they’ll just be focused down first every-time there’s a fight.

The wildcard would be a Mallyx glint Rev build possibly cele and providing alot of resistance, but Mallyx took a decent hit with from bwe2-3 so who knows.

As always;

People just hate conditions/want them nerfed because unlike with direct damage, you get to think about your death before it happens. Eviscerate comes down on your head and you’re downed instantly because you didn’t dodge/block, etc. kitten , time to respawn… You eat a Signet Of Spite, Doom and Tainted Shackles from a Necromancer. You have 11 conditions on you and they’re ticking fast, NOOO, PANIC, TRY TO CLEANSE, RUN AWAY WHAT DO I D… Dead. That was cheap, wow, much strong, such OP, very wow.

Could have avoided that burst the same way you could have the Eviscerate but instead you tank it because you know it’s not going to insta-down you so meh, you’ll take that chance and maybe you can get away with cleansing it? Letting people condi nuke you or not bringing cleanses to counter it is the same idea is never dodging hard hitting physical attacks and not bringing blocks/high enough armor to handle it and crying that it’s OP.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

As always;

People just hate conditions/want them nerfed because unlike with direct damage, you get to think about your death before it happens. Eviscerate comes down on your head and you’re downed instantly because you didn’t dodge/block, etc. kitten , time to respawn… You eat a Signet Of Spite, Doom and Tainted Shackles from a Necromancer. You have 11 conditions on you and they’re ticking fast, NOOO, PANIC, TRY TO CLEANSE, RUN AWAY WHAT DO I D… Dead. That was cheap, wow, much strong, such OP, very wow.

Could have avoided that burst the same way you could have the Eviscerate but instead you tank it because you know it’s not going to insta-down you so meh, you’ll take that chance and maybe you can get away with cleansing it? Letting people condi nuke you or not bringing cleanses to counter it is the same idea is never dodging hard hitting physical attacks and not bringing blocks/high enough armor to handle it and crying that it’s OP.

All big physical skills have an obvious animation with many ways to prevent it from happening all together, conditions can happen on any attack and bigger ones have extremely basic animations and the only way to stop it is hump a shout bunker 24/7 which you won’t even have in 90% of games. As I posted before.
Things that stop melee physical damage.
Cripple/Chill
Blind
Weakness
Slow
Confusion
Invulnerability
Dodge
Leaps
CC
Protection
Toughness
Things that stop ranged physical damage.
All of the above besides Cripple/Chill unless you are running
Reflect
Line of Sight
Things that stop condition damage.
Lucky dodges or blinds
Condition removal
Resistance
Most condition causing skills aren’t even projectiles but reflect or dodges for the few that are.

And the vast majority of those also apply to conditions. Funny thing…

To be clear, the only ones that don’t are Toughness, Weakness, and Protection. Everything else works.

There is only one condition build in the game that is primarily ranged, non-projectile attacks: Necro ( who, ironically, doesn’t see Weakness or Protection as being as significant hindrances as other professions do in Power builds). Every single other condi build is primarily either melee or uses projectiles to deliver a significant portion of their damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And the vast majority of those also apply to conditions. Funny thing…

To be clear, the only ones that don’t are Toughness, Weakness, and Protection. Everything else works.

There is only one condition build in the game that is primarily ranged, non-projectile attacks: Necro ( who, ironically, doesn’t see Weakness or Protection as being as significant hindrances as other professions do in Power builds). Every single other condi build is primarily either melee or uses projectiles to deliver a significant portion of their damage.

Uhh what condition build use projectiles? Engineer pistol skill 2 and 3, Torch throwx2 of Guardian, clone basic attack of Mesmer, only real one is Longbow Warrior but that isn’t meta anymore. Yeah they all do work as I said but they require luck to trigger because skill dodging them is pretty bullkitten, invulnerability has you still taking previously taken conditions, same with dodges, leaps and everything else really, only thing may be CC if you use it before they hit you with anything but they have 2 dodges at the very least. Guardian is the only one that needs to go in melee range but it has 2 teleports.

Came to say I have not died from a direct attack for an entire week. I have been looking at cause of death everytime. It is always a condition.
Overwhelmingly burning like not even a competition

Here is a tip: The current meta has viable condition burst builds. Having to spec at least half of your defensive options to deal with condis is fair, and a good idea right now. You need more than just one cleanse, ideally you have one big cleanse and many minor, passive cleanses going on all time. This is not only useful vs condi build, even power builds use a lot of soft cc etc condis. You also need to learn well when to cleanse and when not to. Empathic Bond + Signet of Renewal + Healing Spring on ranger is a good example of decent cleanse. You get one condi removed per 2.5s, one full cleanse on a stunbreaker and your healing skill pulses cleanse of 2 condis. Allies need to use the spring etc. Condis are never really a problem, still weaker than burst most of the time. Generosity sigil is great for those who have it synergize with their build.

glaphen.5230:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And the vast majority of those also apply to conditions. Funny thing…

To be clear, the only ones that don’t are Toughness, Weakness, and Protection. Everything else works.

There is only one condition build in the game that is primarily ranged, non-projectile attacks: Necro ( who, ironically, doesn’t see Weakness or Protection as being as significant hindrances as other professions do in Power builds). Every single other condi build is primarily either melee or uses projectiles to deliver a significant portion of their damage.

Uhh what condition build use projectiles?

Shortbow/axe/Torch Ranger (plus any ranged pets, which all do condition damage), Pistol Thief, Pistol/grenades Engineer, Staff/Scepter Mesmer, Longbow Warrior (as well as Impale on sword offhand), Torch Guardian, all variations of ele.

So yeah, literally every condition build in the game aside from Necro is either melee range or projectile reliant for very significant portions of their damage. Or both. Even Revenants don’t change this much, since their only condition weapon is melee.

slurry.2716:

Came to say I have not died from a direct attack for an entire week. I have been looking at cause of death everytime. It is always a condition.
Overwhelmingly burning like not even a competition

That is because conditions are all tracked as one entity, regardless of source. If you took a 6k hit that applied a 1k burn, a 3k hit that applied a 3k burn, a 7k hit with 1k burn, 5k with 300 burn, and a 4.5k hit with 2k burn, what did you take the most damage from? Your death recap shows burning at the top, at 7.3k, but the direct damage totaled 19.5k.

If you don’t like condis, go to eotm and join the blob. No condi there.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

glaphen.5230:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

And the vast majority of those also apply to conditions. Funny thing…

To be clear, the only ones that don’t are Toughness, Weakness, and Protection. Everything else works.

There is only one condition build in the game that is primarily ranged, non-projectile attacks: Necro ( who, ironically, doesn’t see Weakness or Protection as being as significant hindrances as other professions do in Power builds). Every single other condi build is primarily either melee or uses projectiles to deliver a significant portion of their damage.

Uhh what condition build use projectiles?

Shortbow/axe/Torch Ranger (plus any ranged pets, which all do condition damage), Pistol Thief, Pistol/grenades Engineer, Staff/Scepter Mesmer, Longbow Warrior (as well as Impale on sword offhand), Torch Guardian, all variations of ele.

So yeah, literally every condition build in the game aside from Necro is either melee range or projectile reliant for very significant portions of their damage. Or both. Even Revenants don’t change this much, since their only condition weapon is melee.

slurry.2716:

Came to say I have not died from a direct attack for an entire week. I have been looking at cause of death everytime. It is always a condition.
Overwhelmingly burning like not even a competition

That is because conditions are all tracked as one entity, regardless of source. If you took a 6k hit that applied a 1k burn, a 3k hit that applied a 3k burn, a 7k hit with 1k burn, 5k with 300 burn, and a 4.5k hit with 2k burn, what did you take the most damage from? Your death recap shows burning at the top, at 7.3k, but the direct damage totaled 19.5k.

Did you ignore the rest of my post? 1 or 2 skills per class is nothing, dagger 4 is a projectile too on Necromancer, so is shroud 2, Guardian has 1 projectile, not counting any multihit attacks that proc justice, Engineer only has pistol 2 and 3, grenades are explosive AoE, Mesmer only has staff and scepter basic attacks that mainly come from clones, Pistol Thief is kitten and isn’t meta and does more power by far, Longbow Warrior isn’t meta, Ranger damage comes more from traps and Shortbow is a kitten weapon compared to S/D, so I guess it has 1 dagger skill, 1 axe and 1 torch skill or Shortbow basic and 1 same as axe skill.

Death Shroud 2 on Necro is a projectile, yes, but since it’s unblockable, it’s not stopped by anti-projectile skills. Deatlhy Swarm is also a projectile, but isn’t used for offense, since it does no condition damage and scales very, very poorly with Power.

Condition Guardian is primarily melee after Zealot’s Fire (a projectile) has been fired off.

Greanades are projectiles and as such are negated by most anto-projectile skills and mechanics in the game, even if they are aimed near the target instead of on.

Mesmer’s condition output is either through autos and Scepter block (projectiles, Scepter block), shatters (melee) or Confusing Images (long channel, easy to dodge). Chaos Storm gives some pressure, too, but is not a good source of damage due to random nature and low stacks (plus several non-damaging condis).

Condition Warriors all use the same weapons: Sword/Sword (melee) and Longbow (projectiles). They don’t get any condition pressure through utility skills, so they have to run this weapon set.

Trap Rangers bring traps (melee range), Axe 2 (melee range and projectile), torch/dagger (melee or projectile).

So please, tell me more about how nothing works to prevent condition damage because it’s all ranged with no projectiles.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Death Shroud 2 on Necro is a projectile, yes, but since it’s unblockable, it’s not stopped by anti-projectile skills. Deatlhy Swarm is also a projectile, but isn’t used for offense, since it does no condition damage and scales very, very poorly with Power.

Condition Guardian is primarily melee after Zealot’s Fire (a projectile) has been fired off.

Greanades are projectiles and as such are negated by most anto-projectile skills and mechanics in the game, even if they are aimed near the target instead of on.

Mesmer’s condition output is either through autos and Scepter block (projectiles, Scepter block), shatters (melee) or Confusing Images (long channel, easy to dodge). Chaos Storm gives some pressure, too, but is not a good source of damage due to random nature and low stacks (plus several non-damaging condis).

Condition Warriors all use the same weapons: Sword/Sword (melee) and Longbow (projectiles). They don’t get any condition pressure through utility skills, so they have to run this weapon set.

Trap Rangers bring traps (melee range), Axe 2 (melee range and projectile), torch/dagger (melee or projectile).

So please, tell me more about how nothing works to prevent condition damage because it’s all ranged with no projectiles.

Just spent like 20 minutes fighting the Mesmer NPC for it to use it’s heal skill and it didn’t before I realized Thief had dagger storm, grenades ignore reflect. All scepter and staff skills are ranged with no projectile on Necromancer, all grenades are on Engineer, Guardian Purging Flames and Judge’s, Mesmer Confusing Images and Illusionary Counter aren’t and staff Chaos storm and all shatters. Then add in the fact that all of them can trigger conditions on any hit with traits.

Confusion should not do passive damage per second in PvP. That’s the biggest issue at the moment.

Eurantien.4632:

Confusion should not do passive damage per second in PvP. That’s the biggest issue at the moment.

Yes I was wondering why I was dying from a PU Mesmer while not doing anything, that used to be the counter to their dumb kitten, ignore them while they do no damage unless in a team fight but now they can easily tick you down unless you have a condition removal and luckily remove the confusion, otherwise you are dead since attacking will kill you instantly.

The Fact that now exists such a thing a Condition damage burst means we ve gone too far , the purpose of condi damage was to deal Sustained damage mostly to counter high survivability players and debuff while building over time hence why all of the condi gear before sinister had a defensive stat or two settlers,apothecary,shaman,carrion,rabid,dire
Rampager was the only gear that broke this chain

sPvP is turning into a joke. If you go with a 5 man necro premade you are guaranteed a win. I shouldn’t have to sacrifice all my utility slots for condition removals. This game has turned into singular builds which is awful.

glaphen.5230:

Just spent like 20 minutes fighting the Mesmer NPC for it to use it’s heal skill and it didn’t before I realized Thief had dagger storm, grenades ignore reflect. All scepter and staff skills are ranged with no projectile on Necromancer, all grenades are on Engineer, Guardian Purging Flames and Judge’s, Mesmer Confusing Images and Illusionary Counter aren’t and staff Chaos storm and all shatters. Then add in the fact that all of them can trigger conditions on any hit with traits.

Grenades can be reflected before impact just fine. Necros, I specifically called out as being the sole “ranged no-projectile” condi build.

Judge’s Intervention puts the Guardian into melee range, so yes, I count it as melee (Dark Path on Necro actually does the same). Yes, Purging Flames is ranged, but you can easily avoid most of the burning by simply not walking over the edge.

Shatters are totally melee attacks, just not for the Mesmer himself (though to maximize their impact, they are). Chaos Storm is hardly worth considering as a condition attack, since most of the time it doesn’t apply a damaging condition anyway.

And yes, they can apply conditions via certain traits. Those traits are rather low-impact on damaging conditions, though, with the sole exceptions of Weakening Shroud and Radiant Fire. Radiant Fire is a lot less scary if it procs after they swap off of torch.

I get it, you want to face condition builds with impuntiy. That will never happen. It should never happen. Any build, if you go into a fight against it poorly prepared for what it can do, should have a strong chance of bending you over and doing as they please. You can’t have the advantage in every fight. No condition build does.

condi already is in a rather bad state in high tier pvp, it just is good vs unorganized teams

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

glaphen.5230:

Just spent like 20 minutes fighting the Mesmer NPC for it to use it’s heal skill and it didn’t before I realized Thief had dagger storm, grenades ignore reflect. All scepter and staff skills are ranged with no projectile on Necromancer, all grenades are on Engineer, Guardian Purging Flames and Judge’s, Mesmer Confusing Images and Illusionary Counter aren’t and staff Chaos storm and all shatters. Then add in the fact that all of them can trigger conditions on any hit with traits.

Grenades can be reflected before impact just fine. Necros, I specifically called out as being the sole “ranged no-projectile” condi build.

Judge’s Intervention puts the Guardian into melee range, so yes, I count it as melee (Dark Path on Necro actually does the same). Yes, Purging Flames is ranged, but you can easily avoid most of the burning by simply not walking over the edge.

Shatters are totally melee attacks, just not for the Mesmer himself (though to maximize their impact, they are). Chaos Storm is hardly worth considering as a condition attack, since most of the time it doesn’t apply a damaging condition anyway.

And yes, they can apply conditions via certain traits. Those traits are rather low-impact on damaging conditions, though, with the sole exceptions of Weakening Shroud and Radiant Fire. Radiant Fire is a lot less scary if it procs after they swap off of torch.

I get it, you want to face condition builds with impuntiy. That will never happen. It should never happen. Any build, if you go into a fight against it poorly prepared for what it can do, should have a strong chance of bending you over and doing as they please. You can’t have the advantage in every fight. No condition build does.

Grenades have extremely high explosive range with the trait and can hit without even having the enemy in the circle, if Feedback works on it, that would be the only real defense against them, but I don’t feel like testing. Judge’s can be activated from 1,200 range so it’s ranged and Purging gives you 3 if it’s casted on you and you don’t dodge the crappy slight hand raise animation of it. Shatters can be activated at 1,200 range and the Mesmer’s position doesn’t matter only the clones do and poison from Chaos Storm still can happen and interrupt traits can still proc.

Engineers with Firearms and Explosives can inflict 2 stacks of burning for 4 seconds every 10 on crit, 21 seconds of bleed at 15% per grenade and have a 33% chance on crit for 4 seconds of bleeding, if all of those proc on a single grenade skill you just did 13.8k damage with a Rabid Amulet and Balth runes.

Shatter effects also come from the mesmer himself, so to maximize impact, he has to be in melee range as well.

All of those traits proccing at once? Let’s say Sigil of Intelligence is used to guarantee the crit to remove that bit of RNG. You are still looking at a .24% chance of that happening. Not 24% chance, .24%. That can happen less than a quarter of one percent of the time.

EDIT: Actually, I calculated that based on two grenades when 3 is now baseline. So, even assuming a guaranteed crit, it is .012% chance of happening. Just over one in ten thousand. Talk about fringe cases.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Shatter effects also come from the mesmer himself, so to maximize impact, he has to be in melee range as well.

All of those traits proccing at once? Let’s say Sigil of Intelligence is used to guarantee the crit. You are still looking at a .24% chance of that happening. Not 24% chance, .24%. That can happen less than a quarter of one percent of the time.

It’s still only one attack out of 5 in 2.5 seconds. Also did not know they gave the old Mesmer trait self shatter to its base but it’s still 1/4 of their damage with 3 clones. Also the 7 seconds of burning was half the damage, 3 stacks of 15% 21 seconds bleeding was the other half while the crits was only 1k damage.

Shrapnel adds an average of 365 damage/explosion in a condi engineer build. Sharpshooter adds an average of 116 per crit.
Incindary Powder is the strongest at 523.7 DPS, assuming you crit to proc immedietly on each cooldown. In practice, it’s lower.

However, none of this at all is out of line compared to damage amplification traits. A single 10% damage boost can easily match Incendiary Powder in a Power build (even in Soldier’s gear) for DPS increase.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Shrapnel adds an average of 365 damage/explosion in a condi engineer build. Sharpshooter adds an average of 116 per crit.
Incindary Powder is the strongest at 523.7 DPS, assuming you crit to proc immedietly on each cooldown. In practice, it’s lower.

However, none of this at all is out of line compared to damage amplification traits. A single 10% damage boost can easily match Incendiary Powder in a Power build (even in Soldier’s gear) for DPS increase.

Also causing a stack of vulnerability every explosion to hide your damaging conditions even better and increase those conditions damage slightly and those trait conditions are more that you have to cleanse or die. If you did 10k damage in a single attack it would do 1k more with 10% damage boost but has many ways to be avoided, Incendiary Powder is going to happen no matter what and all you can do is cleanse it but they have 4 conditions inflicted on a single grenade and most only cure 3 or less.

By the same token, that 10% damage is going to happen no matter what. Incendiary Powder doesn’t apply to every hit, while that boost does. Grenades will usually only inflict 2 conditions (one base, one sharpshooter, shrapnel grenade only does one), and that’s assuming they crit. It’s a 61.4% chance that the Shrapnel trait never kicks in for a particular grenade attack. Incendiary Powder can only apply to one attack every 10 seconds, so if you cleanse the burn, they’ve got no more for that period in grenades.

What honestly makes you think that you should be able to cleanse all of the conditions applied by condition builds? Yes, you will have conditions on you when fighting someone that uses them as their primary offense. Why wouldn’t this be the case? It would be broken otherwise.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

By the same token, that 10% damage is going to happen no matter what. Incendiary Powder doesn’t apply to every hit, while that boost does. Grenades will usually only inflict 2 conditions (one base, one sharpshooter, shrapnel grenade only does one), and that’s assuming they crit. It’s a 61.4% chance that the Shrapnel trait never kicks in for a particular grenade attack. Incendiary Powder can only apply to one attack every 10 seconds, so if you cleanse the burn, they’ve got no more for that period in grenades.

What honestly makes you think that you should be able to cleanse all of the conditions applied by condition builds? Yes, you will have conditions on you when fighting someone that uses them as their primary offense. Why wouldn’t this be the case? It would be broken otherwise.

You would need to do 5k per second for 10% to be 500 total DPS boost as you said, you can dodge big physical skills easily, that 500 DPS burning can only be removed by high cooldown condition cleanses and happens every 10 seconds he’s alive guaranteed. One Flash, Freeze or Poison Grenade does 1 condition, 1 vulnerability, 1 burning per 10 seconds with 50%x3 crit rate without buffs or traits, 1 bleed a 15%x3 and 50% for 33%x3, 1 cripple at 15%x3, forgot about the cripple so half the time it’s 5 and most of the time it’s 4 and rarely will it be 3 or less, can also use crit sigil torment for more. Cleanse the burn and you still have 5 other possible skills that can apply it in a 3 kit build. If you don’t cleanse conditions constantly you die extremely fast, only support shout bunkers really does that any decently.

But a power build has much less options to specc into defensive traits to be effective, this is always ignored by anyone defending the momentary condi playstyle or do I miss something?

Condi Builds should be as weak as direct damage if soldier amulet is used and in order to buff it to the strength it has now, three offensive stat amulets sould be needed in my opinion.

Eleandra.4859:

But a power build has much less options to specc into defensive traits to be effective, this is always ignored by anyone defending the momentary condi playstyle or do I miss something?

Condi Builds should be as weak as direct damage if soldier amulet is used and in order to buff it to the strength it has now, three offensive stat amulets sould be needed in my opinion.

for engineer you can run almost exactly the same build for condi and power. you have the same access to defenses for both builds. condi is actually more squishy imo, because rabid gives no vit while marauder does.

Perhaps for engi, but generally speaking you can successfully run a condi build sporting +condi dmg, + toughness, + vitality.

If you do this with a power build you will kill nothing on most classes.

So if one class either has such powerful defenses that it can run fully offensive and be as effective as if using defensive stats the class hould be nerfed. My point still stands, though.

If contrary to this one class is absolutely squishy independently of the fact that it uses defensive stats or not, it should be buffed in my opinion.

As engineer is the only class I do not play, I cannot say which is the case but it seems to be an issue of the class not cond vs. power judging from your answer.

For all the other classes there is a definitive difference in survivability/sustain with condi and power builds this I know first hand.

Eleandra.4859:

But a power build has much less options to specc into defensive traits to be effective, this is always ignored by anyone defending the momentary condi playstyle or do I miss something?

Condi Builds should be as weak as direct damage if soldier amulet is used and in order to buff it to the strength it has now, three offensive stat amulets sould be needed in my opinion.

You’d need sustains because conditions are attrition damages. It takes time for everything to work, especially when your condi gets immediately cleansed.

The only exception to this are Burn Guardians (mesmers are a different convo). Disregarding our burn on blocks and F1 procs, we can cast 2 of our high CD skills for a “burst” damage effect. Even then, it takes a few ticks for these damages to reach Power Guard damage level… assuming they don’t get immediately cleansed.

If we use up both a stunbreaker and condi cleansing utilitity, there better be a darn good pay-out. We’re otherwise incredibly vulnerable.

well i swapped my build to condi and guess what im actually destroying people with 8k damage per second how can some of you even defend such aberrations of damage and say it is perfectly fine

Rezzet.3614:

well i swapped my build to condi and guess what im actually destroying people with 8k damage per second how can some of you even defend such aberrations of damage and say it is perfectly fine

It’s not perfectly fine amongst unsyncronized SoloQ players without a mixture of Ele, Necro, and/or Guardian on a team.

It’s otherwise perfectly fine amongst higher tier teams where you might be able to make condi guard work, but not any other condi class because those condi classes suck in team wide condi applications. Guardians have always had the best AoE damages in the game. Mesmers and Rangers has always been about single targets.

I have the exact opposite problem the amount of sustain I found in some of my matches is why I switch to bunker or hybrid instead of pure power or condi. You cannot deny that bunkers can reach extremes just like burst damage. I would say it depends on both comps but you are in solo queue right? Don’t complain about build matchup then you don’t know what you will fight or who will be on your team it has always been the same.

That’s the beauty of PvP.

The point made by the anti-condi people in this thread is that condi builds can have similar dps as power builds and also that the condi cleanses of most classes (eles are a different kind of beast) are on much higher cooldown than condi applications.

This means one can simply outsustain power builds.
If the build is cleverly designed utilizing sigils and runes you can also apply two more types of conditions at the same time as your min damage dealing condi.

This combined means that a condi build can have higher dmg/sec than a power build (because you do not need to actually hit the opponent the whole time), can make it very hard to cleanse condis because there is no order in which the conditions are cleansed.

And have much better susutain than any powr build.

If condi cleanse would always cleanse the most damaging condition first, would do a lot to make a fight against a condi vs. power build more fair.

Actually on my thief it happened to me more than once that I tried to cast shadow refuge (for my only condi cleanse – thx for that Anet) but before the cast was done I was downed.
Similar thibgs happened on most other classes.

Similar things hppened to others when I played condi against them.

So

The need to outsustain is a weak argument if this can be done by a condi build in my opinion.