Guild Wars 2

Fix the camera turning speed or am I just going to have to accept that character control is inferior to WoW? I have the slider set to max and its still unacceptable. It levels the playing field in terms of movement for bad and good, which is not acceptable for a ‘competitive’ game.

What are you trying to do? If you want to 360noscope, you should run P/P Thief or Rifle War (best ranged classes tbh) and the camera rotation speed will improve drastically.

It sucks that they balanced it like that, but apparently guns are cooler in this game than glowing foci or huge f**koff swords.

Does your mouse have multiple sensitivity levels? I felt very sluggish turning two years ago but I turned my mouse sensitivity up and it’s fine now.

There is a slider in the options for camera rotation speed….

My mouse sensitivity is quite high. There are two problems with the movement system that make it inferior to WoW, which I’m now going to comment on if anybody is interested in the opinions of a consistently top .1% WoW PvP player.

1. The camera action feels like it’s going through molasses, even at high sensitivity and after adjusting the rotational slider. The rotational slider should adjust upwards towards the needs of an experienced player. I believe Arenanet made it so that it doesn’t get too fast in order to equalize the inexperienced player with bad character control to the experienced player.

2. No casting while jumping. This is a subtle point that less experienced players might not understand. A jump is like a kinetic energy chain. You store your movement/velocity in the jump for a brief period. This enables you to systematically put up ‘auto-run’ in the direction of your choice while also changing your camera angle and using abilities. Jumping allows for superior character control and movement. No jumping while casting destroys this, and I can only imagine it is a deliberate design choice to hamstring good players and appeal to casual PvP play.

That’s all. The game is different, which is nice, but inferior.

Watson.6492:

My mouse sensitivity is quite high. There are two problems with the movement system that make it inferior to WoW, which I’m now going to comment on if anybody is interested in the opinions of a consistently top .1% WoW PvP player.

1. The camera action feels like it’s going through molasses, even at high sensitivity and after adjusting the rotational slider. The rotational slider should adjust upwards towards the needs of an experienced player. I believe Arenanet made it so that it doesn’t get too fast in order to equalize the inexperienced player with bad character control to the experienced player.

2. No casting while jumping. This is a subtle point that less experienced players might not understand. A jump is like a kinetic energy chain. You store your movement/velocity in the jump for a brief period. This enables you to systematically put up ‘auto-run’ in the direction of your choice while also changing your camera angle and using abilities. Jumping allows for superior character control and movement. No jumping while casting destroys this, and I can only imagine it is a deliberate design choice to hamstring good players and appeal to casual PvP play.

That’s all. The game is different, which is nice, but inferior.

It’s a bit odd to assume that the developers are intentionally trying to level the playing field between good and bad players. I suppose a conspiracy theory like that is possible, but it’s something of a non sequitur.

No casting while airborne is unfortunate. I’d love to be able to cast while jumping or falling. It’s far more likely that it was an oversight than that it was intentionally harming top players, though. It’s also possible that casting while airborne could have been exploitable to prevent falling damage, or to jump further, or could have just looked absurd (let’s say you cast a leap skill while falling…) There are multiple explanations tens of times more probable than an intentional plot to make good players less good. (Spoiler alert: good players win no matter what the mechanics are like).

I think the camera rotation was more of a PvE thing—they probably wanted the default to be somewhat slow to encourage players to “take in” the environment. I can rotate 180 degrees by moving my mouse maybe a third or a half inch, though, which I feel is fine. I believe there’s something like .05 second camera delay, which I also feel is fine. Especially since I usually use the “look behind” or “180” button instead of the left and right mouse buttons for those situations, respectively, as it’s much more physically efficient, no matter what the settings of the game are like.

How long have you played WoW? It’s possible that games with any other minutely differing settings will feel odd to you if you’ve spent thousands of hours with your controls feeling a certain way.

No offense, but you’re coming off as irrationally defensive. It is no secret that GW2 is laden with uber-casual gameplay elements for an MMO. There’s no indication on any level that the developers have attempted to adapt the game to high level play.

It really can’t be an ‘oversight’ unless the developers are grossly incompetent, which I doubt. It’s obvious that they’re never going to budge on this, years later, despite the obvious fact that excellent and experienced MMO PvPers have made similar notations to them in order to help them improve their flawed mechanics.

The default claim for PvE is also implausible, given the fact that my initial post was dealing specifically with the fact that the game doesn’t allow you to adjust upwards to your level of skill. It places a distinct and limited cap. The only legitimate reason for this is to not give players who are good a notable mechanical advantage.

Let’s talk about your claim that ‘good players win no matter what the mechanics are like’.

The problem is that mechanics are the only element that create good gameplay. GW2 is more about memorizing a bunch of things versus having good mechanics. The key element in a competitive game is that knowledge should not equal efficacy. You need the mechanical variable as well, or you have a failed game. This holds true for all legitimate competitive games.

Basically, either these issues need to be fixed (which is utter hilarity to note, years into the development cycle) or you’re going to have a competitive system that continues to be highly flawed, which is a marked departure from slightly flawed.

Watson.6492:

No offense, but you’re coming off as irrationally defensive.

None taken. I am often irrationally defensive; it’s my nature. We are all irrational in our own ways. I prefer to err on this side of things.

I enjoy posting on the forums but generally spend too much time doing it, so I won’t address most of your points. I hope you find what you’re looking for. GW2 has pretty active combat so I think you could enjoy it, but it’s not perfect like WoW

(Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m also irrationally sometimes a jerk.)

NevirSayDie.6235:

Watson.6492:

No offense, but you’re coming off as irrationally defensive.

None taken. I am often irrationally defensive; it’s my nature. We are all irrational in our own ways. I prefer to err on this side of things.

I enjoy posting on the forums but generally spend too much time doing it, so I won’t address most of your points. I hope you find what you’re looking for. GW2 has pretty active combat so I think you could enjoy it, but it’s not perfect like WoW

(Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m also irrationally sometimes a jerk.)

Watson is dumb, you are too nice!

Zirith.6429:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Watson.6492:

No offense, but you’re coming off as irrationally defensive.

None taken. I am often irrationally defensive; it’s my nature. We are all irrational in our own ways. I prefer to err on this side of things.

I enjoy posting on the forums but generally spend too much time doing it, so I won’t address most of your points. I hope you find what you’re looking for. GW2 has pretty active combat so I think you could enjoy it, but it’s not perfect like WoW

(Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m also irrationally sometimes a jerk.)

Watson is dumb, you are too nice!

Now, there’s no need for that…

As someone who played wow on 7 classes at 2300-2700 rating (during non inflated seasons) i can relate to you in a way. The camera feels a bit slow at first…the combat as a whole doesnt tho.

- Camera responsiveness doesnt say a lot about the combat itself. Its a seperate thing.
- Mind that there is a shortcut to instantly look or aim behind you. Takes a while to get used to having to use a specific key as part of your camera rotation, but once you do it feels really smooth. Imo even smoother than wows camera rotation.
- Correct me if im wrong, but in wow there is no casting while jumping either (besides instants ofc). In GW2 instants AND chains are usable while jumping. To name an example for me my own class: i can use poison dart voley (a 2 second chain that launches 5 poison darts) while midair.

You seem to lack some basic understanding about GW2. If you did understand the game you wouldve mentioned some real issues like the difference in depth and risk/reward between the classes.

Locuz.2651:

As someone who played wow on 7 classes at 2300-2700 rating (during non inflated seasons) i can relate to you in a way. The camera feels a bit slow at first…the combat as a whole doesnt tho.

- Camera responsiveness doesnt say a lot about the combat itself. Its a seperate thing.
- Mind that there is a shortcut to instantly look or aim behind you. Takes a while to get used to having to use a specific key as part of your camera rotation, but once you do it feels really smooth. Imo even smoother than wows camera rotation.
- Correct me if im wrong, but in wow there is no casting while jumping either (besides instants ofc). In GW2 instants AND chains are usable while jumping. To name an example for me my own class: i can use poison dart voley (a 2 second chain that launches 5 poison darts) while midair.

You seem to lack some basic understanding about GW2. If you did understand the game you wouldve mentioned some real issues like the difference in depth and risk/reward between the classes.

I appreciate the perspective.

Seems like you’ve been away for awhile from WoW, so there’s no real point to discuss all of the differences in mechanics. It’d get really pedantic, really quick; most people here don’t really know the specifics of the comparison. Suffice to say, the differences where applicable to the narrow points I’m making are notable.

Obviously, my main concern is with the control mechanics. This vector in PvP should equate to about 40%-50% of the skill difference. We’re talking positioning, character movement and response, etc. It is a substantial indicator of good play. Having impeccable control adds a respectable APM requirement as well.

I could discuss these other topics, but really, who’s going to read my litany? I wanted the parameters of this thread to be within the sphere of what I consider unforgivable errors on the part of the game developers. One comment I’ll make on this, similar to your notations, is that whereas I could easily beat multiple players in PvP at the same time with years of experienced on my hunter in WoW, I would wager that this skill gap simply does not exist in this game for most of the professions. I’m not even convinced there is an excepted profession that takes more than a week to reach 85-90% of potential in the hands of a good player.

In any case, to be quite frank with everybody here, and within the realm of the thread; I have 8+ years of extremely high level MMO PvP experience. We’re talking consistently top .1%, which is magna kitten laude of video games. I haven’t played GW2 for long, but if I was magically put in charge of PvP design and direction for the game, I could make it better than it is now. I know you might view that as a controversial statement, but it shows in my opinion a lack of either drive or mastery on the part of the developers. While some of you folks probably won’t understand this, it’s simply the case that allowing casting while jumping would increase the skill cap of the game. I am nearly 100% sure it would cause physics problems and possibly necessitate a redesign in some areas of the game on the PvE side, though, so it is an unlikely endeavor.

What else is there to say? I am under no illusions that my statements nor claims actually matter or are even remotely productive. Sharing my experience? Thoughts? Complaining? Any of these is applicable. Every MMO ever just needs to understand that you shouldn’t be trying to reinvent the wheel.

Edit: One final esoteric point that people don’t need to read if they haven’t played WoW. WoW was a game that had X number of tools that took years to develop. The meta from BC through wrath developed in a really big way, without a notable design change following suit. That is to say, the mechanics had so much potential that many aspects of play were heavily undeveloped on the player end. Comparing a BC glad to even a late Wrath glad shows a huge gap in play. I remember, notably, trying to pick up my old BC glad partners years after. They were median or below level players, despite having been in the top .1%+ in previous seasons. Comparatively, I doubt such a meta shift from untapped potential could ever exist in this game in a meaningful way. Maybe on the macro scale.

Watson.6492:

Seems like you’ve been away for awhile from WoW, so there’s no real point to discuss all of the differences in mechanics.

The last time ive played wow was last season so i think i have a pretty kitten good idea about the current mechanics in wow. Youre making it sound a lot better than it is atm.

Watson.6492:

Obviously, my main concern is with the control mechanics. This vector in PvP should equate to about 40%-50% of the skill difference. We’re talking positioning, character movement and response, etc. It is a substantial indicator of good play. Having impeccable control adds a respectable APM requirement as well.

The main issues is readability of the control effects. They need to find a way to make every control effect and its duration visible without making it very UI based like we see in wow.

Which brings me to one of the main issues i have with wow. “Playing the UI and not the game”.

Positioning, movement and response are different in GW2. Its more of a twitch type of combat where you read incoming attacks, dodge / block and follow it up with a counter. Wow on the other hand is more of CD race between two teams.

Watson.6492:

In any case, to be quite frank with everybody here, and within the realm of the thread; I have 8+ years of extremely high level MMO PvP experience. We’re talking consistently top .1%, which is magna kitten laude of video games.

Who are you? If youre part of my region i should know you from in game. The scene isnt that big.

Locuz.2651:

Watson.6492:

Seems like you’ve been away for awhile from WoW, so there’s no real point to discuss all of the differences in mechanics.

The last time ive played wow was last season so i think i have a pretty kitten good idea about the current mechanics in wow.

My apologies, I just thought it unlikely that you’d ask how certain control mechanics would work when you should know all of them as a top ranking player. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your question.

Edit: I play a human mage on KT-US (also every other class in the game at respectable, but not par, level). Honestly, from my way of writing, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone could easily recognize me. It’s quite possible that we’ve played together. I go through cycles of rating-losing interest in the later season and looking for alternatives. SC2 and like aren’t my cup of tea.

Watson.6492:

My apologies, I just thought it unlikely that you’d ask how certain control mechanics would work when you should know all of them as a top ranking player. Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your question.

Did i ask that even? English isnt my native language, so that might be the issue.

Watson.6492:

my way of writing,

Your way of writing is great, as long as its not a wall of woolly text. You made some valid points but due to your lack of experience with the game a lot of the things you wrote are relatively unsubstantiated.

Watson.6492:

One comment I’ll make on this, similar to your notations, is that whereas I could easily beat multiple players in PvP at the same time with years of experienced on my hunter in WoW, I would wager that this skill gap simply does not exist in this game for most of the professions. I’m not even convinced there is an excepted profession that takes more than a week to reach 85-90% of potential in the hands of a good player.

There are some classes in this game that lack depth of play, i agree with that. But there are others like elementalist, engineer or even thief that take relatively long to master. I find the first two a lot harder to play overall than my mage in wow. A class that i got to 2600 (in the arena ofc) during my first season of playing it. A class that allowed me to make an easy transition between specs aswell; from high rated fire to high rated frost.

If every class in this game was really easy to play you would see a lot of good thieves, engineers and elementalists. They are a rarity though since it requires a lot of dedication and imo even talent to master those.

My point is that the depth is here if you care to look for it and play the right specs and classes.

Watson.6492:

positioning, character movement and response, etc.

To make it a fair comparison i would compare the individual requirements in these areas between conquest at top end with RBGs at top end. Especially if you look at the classes that do take a lot of time to master youll see that its very demanding and unforgiving on individual players if compared to wow (in RBGs).

Rotations and positioning are more of an ungoing process in GW2. Youre basicly constantly deciding wether you engage or move somewhere else. Youre constantly counting players, predicting player movement and adjusting your positioning and movement based on that. And making a mistake in these areas often means the difference between winning and losing.

In wow youll see a lot less movement and diversity. Its more of a blobfight with specific burst windows and less focus on map rotations.

I think you are in the wrong forums mate, this is Guild Wars 2.

World of Warcraft is a different game by a different company with a different design made at a different period of time.

The only comparison you can make is blizzard also saw PVP as an after thought, just like ANet.

I for one am glad you can’t cast most things while
Jumping, because seriously it was SO UGLY that everyone on WoW was JUMPING ALL OF THE TIME.

It looked so bad.