Guild Wars 2

Yeah so I have been enjoying PvP for a number of months now and enjoyed the fact that if I was going in alone, I would get paired up with people appropriate to my level. Now that this update has hit, (and please excuse the super elitist vibe that I know this will shed) I have not had one match where I felt my team was at my level of skill. Everyone was chasing enemies off point as if it was a free-for-all. Few people even cared about capping. Barely anyone fought on point.

I get that this PvP change will bring in new players but does that really mean the veterans that play this should be hindered? I don’t even want to PvP anymore because the pairing is becoming far too frustrating.

Will there be a rework with the match-ups and pairing?

They also removed displaying rank at the end of a match. I can only presume this is so they don’t need to fix matchmaking since we can’t easily prove it’s broken

i’m pretty sure w/ the scoreboard changes they made that they’ve just completely gutted the pairing system. its a “whomever’s up” queue now.

they knew w/ the champ train horde incoming if “we saw” (scoreboard) who we’re paired up with the majority of the time the existing player base would probably just stop playing, guessing they didn’t take into account them simply not knowing how to play or thinking pvp was one big dueling arena were the winner got the most stomps…

i think logistically we saw the real problem prior to the patch where just nobody was playing because they took away all our rewards.

there would be a lot of rookie match ups and not many veteran players getting to actually play. the quality would go go up but quantity would likely go down.

probably safe to make the assumption that a lot of the veteran players already have a lot of these reward items being offered right now anyway, why play for nothing… its going to be the same few ppl who dont really care that theres no rewards playing and you’d be queued for like 12 mintues waiting for a match up to happen like the past weeks and be fighting the same 5-7 ppl over and over.

just glad i can still scare up 5 ppl to queue at times otherwise this would be really annoying to try to play through.

I noticed that too. I feel like this “way of matchmaking” is going to create a very similar issue to what Guild Wars 1 had for Heroes Ascent. That is, people would form parties and force players to show their rank title (/rank to show emote in GW2 I suppose).

This system needs a rework if this is supposed to be permanent because this isn’t exactly kosher.

i been now giving advice and asking players at the start who is new to pvp or arena for that matter and some admit that they are new and i try to guide them or give them advice specially when lots of them try to double cap or fight anyone they see. they should know what conquest mode is all about capping not fighting. if you can cap a point with out fighting the better. other than that the veteran players are taking a blow getting paired with pve heros. i just hope they reset the leaderboard or start fresh with ladder sysytem so the long time pvper are getting fair match up.

Justin ODell.9517:

May I suggest taking a patient, mentoring approach?

May I suggest either not letting them into e.g. team Q or at least to implement a working MM system, so more experienced players don’t get paired up with them.

I don’t have sth against new players, but it is just annoying if there are too big gaps in between the experience of the players.

Justin ODell.9517:

Matchmaking has not changed. We stopped showing ranks because they were being used incorrectly (as if they implied skill rather than time invested), causing a toxic environment where players felt justified (wrongly) while harassing each other.

We are working on changes to matchmaking, but those changes are unrelated to the decision to not show ranks.

That said, there has been a huge influx of new players, and this is likely what you are noticing. They are likely going to need some time to learn the ropes and figure out how to play. May I suggest taking a patient, mentoring approach?

Glad to hear you’re working on this. Again, I don’t mean to sound like an “elitist jerk” by any means. In my guild, we help out new people to PvP and it’s great. I don’t mind helping people at all but there are times where I just want to have a few quick and fun games without having the need to teach others. Eventually it gets tiring!

Justin ODell.9517:

… We stopped showing ranks because they were being used incorrectly (as if they implied skill rather than time invested), causing a toxic environment where players felt justified (wrongly) while harassing each other.

if matchmaking is/was based on rank, then how is that even relevant? from what i’ve seen before the patch / post patch matchups are not based on rank, but rather just whomever is queued, which is what causes the problems with the disparity in skill when you’re the only one on your team who’s played the game and 4 first timers against a team of sharks.

i wouldn’t call that a toxic environment caused by rank, i’d call that not being able to accurately create a pool of players based on rank which in turn causes people to be upset because they’ve had to deal with a number of issues caused by a server technology which doesn’t seem to be functional.

not showing ranks is a cop out.

Justin ODell.9517:

Matchmaking has not changed. We stopped showing ranks because they were being used incorrectly (as if they implied skill rather than time invested), causing a toxic environment where players felt justified (wrongly) while harassing each other.

We are working on changes to matchmaking, but those changes are unrelated to the decision to not show ranks.

That said, there has been a huge influx of new players, and this is likely what you are noticing. They are likely going to need some time to learn the ropes and figure out how to play. May I suggest taking a patient, mentoring approach?

Ive seen the examples Justin. Ive seen examples of people being skyrocketed to the top of the ladder after mere 10 games played. So they are teamed up or against people with 10.000+ games played. Guys that played ESL every week and such.

Even the most talented player in the world wouldnt manage that. But the system you implemented does just that. It creates a very toxic atmosphere with frustration on all sides. Veterans are tired of explaining simple strategies (or even that its possible to weaponswap i kid you not) while new players will get a very negative vibe since ppl kitten on them every single game.

It hurts the community tbh. I can give you a few names of new players that quit since the system pushed their MMR to high.

http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/Olfwen8609

For example. A very friendly guy that got pushed to a top 20 spot after like 15 games played. So instead of playing with and against beginners like himself he was forced to fight vs guys that pvped since beta. He literally got slaughtered every single game ive seen him play.

Result? He quit the game.

There isnt a single competetive game out there where people can get to the top of a ladder after 10, 20 or even 50 games. It should never happen.

Do you think that in wow for example. A new arenaplayer is able to fight vs top tier veterans within 10 games? No ofc not. And thats not because their community is bigger. The system just never matches beginners with veterans….ever. And yes that meant that we as higher rated players only had games during regular hours. But thats fine…since the games we played where good vs quality opponents.

Don’t know if it’s just me, but for one, don’t call it “Arena” if you don’t want to confuse new players. When I see that word in the context of an MMO, I think of a closed off area where competitors fight to the death, i.e. TDM.

Dude. theres no kitten point of hiding it, seriously, why would you do it, its extra work for nothing, like nothing, it’s no good for any of us, like whats the point of not showing ranks, whats the kittening cons about it.

time invested does improve skill, in general an old rank 60 will always be better then a kittening rank 20, that’s a fact.

So Justin: how exactly will you show skill? Will you use ladder rank or something?

If you matchmake based on ranks, it will be more accurate and effective that what you have now. Rank might indeed imply time, but there’s a powerful correlation between time and skill.

Make it happen!

Justin ODell.9517:

Rezz.8019:

So Justin: how exactly will you show skill? Will you use ladder rank or something?

That depends on what the community wants, and ladders do seem to fit.

Make it happen then!

EDIT: I did not see the post above

Justin ODell.9517:

Steve Whitley.8359:

if matchmaking is/was based on rank, then how is that even relevant? from what i’ve seen before the patch / post patch matchups are not based on rank, but rather just whomever is queued…

Matchmaking has never used rank. We use the Glicko2 MMR algorithm. While we will always be limited to whoever is in the queue at any given time, we do not just throw players together at random.

first… glicko is a flawed algorithm which imo doesn’t take into account the various team dynamic permutations which affect your own rating (now i’m not an expert in the formula however so maybe that’s ultimately factored in but given what i’ve seen in wvw and the different randomization’s that’ve been thrown in there to simulate this dynamic i’d doubt it) from matchup to matchup.

if you want my honest opinion, if you just continue stripping the pvp players of whatever stuff they’ve earned thus far, and allow the powers that be to drag the one hit wonders in & rob the one off pve content from this area of the game you’re always going to be limited by the available player pool (which is going to be low) as has been the case since you removed “real rewards” and glory from what used to be pvp, and whatever complicated algorithms are in place to factor who plays whom are not going to matter anyway. whatever ladders are set up aren’t going to matter, and you may as well base it on availability cause its going to be the same 10 people playing hour after hour because they just enjoy playing pvp…

Can we have a CDI about pvp rewards, please?
The implementation is as important as the leagues/seasons.

Justin ODell.9517:

Steve Whitley.8359:

if matchmaking is/was based on rank, then how is that even relevant? from what i’ve seen before the patch / post patch matchups are not based on rank, but rather just whomever is queued…

Matchmaking has never used rank. We use the Glicko2 MMR algorithm. While we will always be limited to whoever is in the queue at any given time, we do not just throw players together at random.

Just a question for you from an “IT man”:

The system estimates the level of the player based on his results depends against who wins or who loses against. This system can operate in a single-player game. Like chess.

Why have implemented this system in a team game (5v5 leaderboard but based on the individual player)?

In this way, if a person is poor-skilled, but in the first match is coupled with good people and win 7 or 8 games, he will have a really high MMR.

Glicko or Elo can work in the evaluation of a player in a 1v1 or a whole team, for example GvG in GW1.

I re-do an old example of mine. Think about a really good basketball player, Allen Iverson. He is considered one of the best players ever, but if we check their stats of Philadephia 76 and take this stats in a single player leaderboard, Allen Iverson is not at the top, because other players in that team was not good.
Now, do a matchmaking: Allen Iverson (low MMR but amazing player) will be paired with poor-skill player. He can’t win a lot of match, He will stay forever in the poor-skill-zone of the leaderboard.

Sorry for my bad english.

Thanks for the updates, Justin. I do look forward to getting the matchmaking adjusted accordingly. It’ll be great to be paired up with people appropriate to my skill level. I guess for now I will just communicate with the community a bit more and party up with people.

Justin ODell.9517:

Matchmaking has not changed. We stopped showing ranks because they were being used incorrectly (as if they implied skill rather than time invested), causing a toxic environment where players felt justified (wrongly) while harassing each other.

Yeah and we can still see who do kitten on the battlefield and noobs are equally harassed.
The difference ? From “omg noob R XX L2P” to “omg noob L2P” oh yeah awesome …

Actually, its definitely more a way to prevent us from proving through screenshots that MMR is not working in some situations.

Justin ODell.9517:

Matchmaking has not changed. We stopped showing ranks because they were being used incorrectly (as if they implied skill rather than time invested), causing a toxic environment where players felt justified (wrongly) while harassing each other.

We are working on changes to matchmaking, but those changes are unrelated to the decision to not show ranks.

That said, there has been a huge influx of new players, and this is likely what you are noticing. They are likely going to need some time to learn the ropes and figure out how to play. May I suggest taking a patient, mentoring approach?

Thanks for the reply Justin. It just seemed odd to me that since you couldn’t see rank until the match was over you couldn’t really haze people because of their lower rank since you didn’t know it until it was too late. I’ve had match finish and the players I didn’t think performed well were actually the higher ranks with some <10 level ones doing really well.

The problem now is yes newbies have to learn but in soloq 90% don’t listen so you can’t teach them. If they do listen you’re never matched with them again so you don’t see the long term benefit.

I had a player yesterday whisper me after a match. He was from the other team and said they all felt sorry for me because of my teammates. That message made me feel better than the 300 rank points :p

Here’s my take on soloq:
Roll with the punches. Look at the match-ups pre-start and adjust. Pay attention to mini-map and adjust. Two minutes in you should have a pretty good idea of how the match is going to play out. Adjust your play.

NEVER assume that your teammates are going to do what you think should be done.

Want a better chance at winning? Roll a bunker and go sit on a point.

Embrace the challenge of 1v9’s.

And if you have no CC, stability, or common sense go to point B on Skyhammer.

PSILO.4068:

Here’s my take on soloq:
Roll with the punches. Look at the match-ups pre-start and adjust. Pay attention to mini-map and adjust. Two minutes in you should have a pretty good idea of how the match is going to play out. Adjust your play.

NEVER assume that your teammates are going to do what you think should be done.

Want a better chance at winning? Roll a bunker and go sit on a point.

Embrace the challenge of 1v9’s.

And if you have no CC, stability, or common sense go to point B on Skyhammer.

Yeah, bunker builds (especially those on far) are probably the best thing you can do in soloq (or even teamq if you’re solo’ing). What is needed is a build and a role that can be performed alone without any help whatsoever.

What ever you are doing for match making it is a complete fail. It always has been bad and the new influx of players just highlights it.

You should admit it and drop it until you come up with something better.

In the mean time ranks will make for much better games.

KratosAngel.7289:

Actually, its definitely more a way to prevent us from proving through screenshots that MMR is not working in some situations.

Basically this. Like others have said, rank is an indication of time which is in turn an indicator of skill. If someone is, say, rank 40 then it is very likely they have played the maps many times and know how the secondary mechanics work for example. If someone is rank 12, then it is very likely they dont know anything about map flow, priorities, nor even what skills/traits are useful. There is the fringe case of a veteran buying a 2nd copy of the game, and thus having high skill with very low rank, but that is not worth talking about.

Rank is probably a poor indicator of skill, when comparing two “high” ranked players (like >30). But I can guarantee you that a person with “low” rank (e.g. <20) are going to be unskilled simply by virtue of them having only spent like 6 hours total.

However! Unskilled players are not a problem. It is only when one team gets populated by one or more unskilled players, meanwhile the other team gets all average/good players, which is the problem. So by hiding rank now, they hide this broken situation of a team hamstrung by an unskilled player while paired with average/good players.

Take home point: ArenaNet is aware of these issues with mismatched games, and have made the conscious decision to not fix it, due to lack of time or simply the architecture of the code doesn’t allow them to. Thus they hide rank so we will stop “proving” via screenshots that there is a problem with mismatched teams.

Adastra.9821:

Don’t know if it’s just me, but for one, don’t call it “Arena” if you don’t want to confuse new players. When I see that word in the context of an MMO, I think of a closed off area where competitors fight to the death, i.e. TDM.

In my opinions, this is rly a big thing.
“Arena” is sth everyobody understands, that it means pvp.

But if you are totally unexperienced, wtf is a “pvp-browser”?

Not to mention, that the Arenas only have one single button (for each arena) to klick on, while the pvp browser might seem a little bit confusion.
Do you rly think, some new amulets & traits might overwhelm new players, but on the other side you regard the PvP browser as appropriate?

This is also sth. which can be fixed very easy, as you only have to rename “pvp-browser” and “arens”.

Maybe you could also rework the PvP Browser. Call it “Hot Join” and make it’S design similar to the arenas, with one big, fat Button for “Join Now”
Than, on this window, you add a button for “open pvp browser” which will show the current PvP browser. There you go.

Justin ODell.9517:

bhagwad.4281:

If you matchmake based on ranks, it will be more accurate and effective that what you have now.

I disagree, using ranks instead of MMR may help reduce matchup against new players but it would make matches for everyone else just as bad, if not worse.

We have plans to better ease new players into solo and team arena, which should help with this problem without ruining the game for everyone else.

bhagwad.4281:

Make it happen!

I am, I am!

You disagree because you have no clue. Do you play this game even? A rank 10 will be worse than a rank 80 in 99.99% of the cases. Yet your system pushes totally new players up to the top after 3-4 lucky wins during their first 10 games.

Ive never seen a a ladder system that was worse in any MMO with a leaderboard. How can we have faith in someone who has implemented this?

Justin ODell.9517:

That said, there has been a huge influx of new players, and this is likely what you are noticing. They are likely going to need some time to learn the ropes and figure out how to play. May I suggest taking a patient, mentoring approach?

But sir, the number of new players is so much bigger than the PvP community. I’d have to have like 10 mentees…Ain’t nobody got time for that xP

How about we take the average of the scores that people earn in their games and match them with those who have similar scores?
Rank doesnt matter in this case.

Say for example, a person has an average of 200 point for the games that he plays should be pair with those like him, 200ish average of scores. This shows that (despite their ranks) they know what they are doing and are enthuiastic and passionate about pvp. He or she is actively running around capping, rezzing, killing, grabbing orb and taking buffs etc.
and vice versa, someone who is new to the game wouldnt be earning 200ish as his average score. But it doesnt mean he will always play with ppl with low average score.

Lets say he gets 10 point for his very first game, then the second he earns 20, he now has an average of 15 so he gets paired with ppl like him. However he began to notice he needs to cap points and doing what should be done foreach map, he got 150 for this third game. Now his average is 60 so he gets paired with people in the 60 range. This way, it leads new players slowly and kindly into the hardcore world of pvp, rather than having them up against phoenix and dragons and have their hopes crushed and their souls kittened

This puts people who are constantly trying hard and are experienced against each other, and newbies/slackers against each other.

BUT the average shouldnt be calculated for all of the games a player has played, but only his previous 10 games. Because average wont change much when there are too many variables.
And also let’s say, Cartman used be a fun loving and healthy living person who tries hard in whatever he does and get top scores in his spvp games. But then he got into drugs and now just idling at the waypoint, kitten with his left hand while tapping the space every 10 seconds so he wont get kicked for being inactive.

We gotta separate ourselves from the drug addicts.

This would make people continue to try hard to earn top score if they want to be matched with similar players who are equally skilled and experienced about pvp and have a fun and engaging game, and the new people are being introduced slowly.

Because, in all honesty, what we love most is seeing the people of our team who are equally knowledgable and experienced trying hard as much as we are. Then winning and losing comes after that. Because it is still a gg even if we lost.

Saikano.7853:

.

Score means absolutely nothing PvE hero.

A few comments on all of this…

1. Ranks should have NOTHING to do with mmr.
2. mmr is gained too quickly. That is the issue with the matchmaking
3. Decay needs to be permanent and not just a leaderboard item. Seeing someone go from 20% to 93% in one game is ridiculous.

Justin ODell.9517:

2) The number of games required to show on the leaderboards is likely too low.

… The second is something we can investigate changing, but may not be relevant if we move to a ladder system.

I have been away from the game for a few months. Before I left I pointed at exactly this issue as the reason why the matchmaking was not working properly. I didn’t make a big deal of it and flame out or anything silly, I just needed a break from the lopsided matches.

I came back to the forums here because I am considering coming back to GW2. Still probably going to play some and see how it “feels” to be back, but it is frustrating to see the exact same primary problem vexing the PvP community after several months of break.

Also, Community Development and “new modes” discussions don’t seem to have created much… disheartening.

So say example A of your algorithm failing:

List at start for a 3v3 (20, 5, 4, 4, 2, 1)

According to your algorithm the team comp would look like this at the end:

Team A: (20, 2 ,1) = 23
Team B: (5, 4, 4) = 13

Seems fair right? There has to be more to your algorithm for Solo Q because this one seem awfully barbaric…

I advise anyone to take a gander at their own stats post patch, @ http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/X, where X is your playerid(ie: bob4444).

My teamq rank hasn’t been great for awhile, but it went from ~350 to un-ranked post patch, and my win percentage went from ~55% down to ~27%.

My build didn’t change. I didn’t change. etc. It’s purely the matchups that changed because of this influx of new players.

At the end of the day I don’t really give a kitten about my rank, but I DO give a kitten about being paired with equally skilled players, and that just isn’t happening right now.

So the answer for the time being? quit. I’ll be back in 3 weeks and hopefully all the new players will have either left or learned how to play.

It just isn’t worth the frustration.

shrug

Saikano.7853:

you are playing for WIN, not score and boosting your ego.

Is there really a downside to drastically reducing the MMR fluxuation for all players and start new players at a much lower MMR? If a new player is much better than the average new player, he should start with a very strong win/loss record, but one should not be able to achieve top 100 or even top 500 in their first 20 games….. nor should one be able to move up or down 100+ ranks in a single match after they’ve played hundreds of games.

TL;DR – I say just cut the starting MMR by 66%, and reduce MMR change post-match by ~80%.

I don’t understand why you guys don’t have a ladder system similar to WoW? Also we need ladders INGAME!

eleshazar.6902:

So say example A of your algorithm failing:

List at start for a 3v3 (20, 5, 4, 4, 2, 1)

According to your algorithm the team comp would look like this at the end:

Team A: (20, 2 ,1) = 23
Team B: (5, 4, 4) = 13

Seems fair right? There has to be more to your algorithm for Solo Q because this one seem awfully barbaric…

I’m pretty sure that MMR doesn’t work around those values/ratios. The ratio between beginners and top players is probably between 2:1 and 3:1

Eviscera.9703:

I don’t understand why you guys don’t have a ladder system similar to WoW? Also we need ladders INGAME!

Every look at the wall of champions, listing the PAX winners?

SO epic…NOT

EverythingEnds.4261:

Eviscera.9703:

I don’t understand why you guys don’t have a ladder system similar to WoW? Also we need ladders INGAME!

Every look at the wall of champions, listing the PAX winners?

SO epic…NOT

That’s better than listing the shoutcasters.

somsom.5201:

I advise anyone to take a gander at their own stats post patch, @ http://www.gw2score.com/PvP/player/X, where X is your playerid(ie: bob4444).

My teamq rank hasn’t been great for awhile, but it went from ~350 to un-ranked post patch, and my win percentage went from ~55% down to ~27%.

My build didn’t change. I didn’t change. etc. It’s purely the matchups that changed because of this influx of new players.

At the end of the day I don’t really give a kitten about my rank, but I DO give a kitten about being paired with equally skilled players, and that just isn’t happening right now.

So the answer for the time being? quit. I’ll be back in 3 weeks and hopefully all the new players will have either left or learned how to play.

It just isn’t worth the frustration.

shrug

Yup i am now in mmr hell after this patch and i hadnt played in almost 5 months before it

yea, i’ll say this need hot fixing…can’t even solo arena when my friends are not online because i get fresh pves…. and to add insult to injury…. Spirit Watch/ Skyhammer…..RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

you should take ranks into account anyways, do NOT let people with ranks < 10 into solo queue, let them do team q sure its team decision who they bring, but in solo we should only have players that actually played the game before.
Also why work on it now? It’s been reported problem since solo Q has been implemented and the patch bringing newbs into pvp is already here, damage is done…(not saying you shouldn’t still fix it, just saying it should have been done WAY earlier)

Along the same lines of not showing rank, can we not show level either? I haven’t had this issue on my 3rd ranger with team mates due to two legendary skins, a fractal sword, t3, and Molten Gauntlets to obviously show that I’ve been playing for a while, but others have encountered being “judged” based on your personal level, which shows in the PvP party UI.