Guild Wars 2

I’m starting to see a trend. It’s the same few people who are complaining about Mesmers venomately.

There are a few things on Mesmers that need to be toned down ,but buy in large it is a learn 2 play issue.

What I am finding that people are lacking in this sense is focus. They see a bunch of clones on the field and hesitate going “Which one’s the real one!?”

Same thing with thief, people see a thief stealth and suddenly it’s all stop ‘deeerp where did he go george, where did he go?’ and wait instead of laying down defenses or guessing an attack.

I’d almost say it’s an intimidation factor. Players just seem to be scared of these classes even though I’m wiping the floor with theives and mesmers both when I play other classes. (Particuarly on Elementalists. People seem to LOVE walking into AoE fields and burn themselves to death.

No, but too many non player chars is, such as clones, and necro pets etc, its just chaotic and horrible to play.

esports needs to be clean and crisp with everything absolutely deliberate.

You know, I didn’t think about this, but it is definitely a problem. It is a bit chaotic and messy that way. This is not to say there shouldn’t be pet classes, but when several classes can have 3 or more pets (including spirit weapon Guard and spirit pet Ranger), it gets really weird.

You don’t like it?

Presonally, I thrive in such chaotic envrioments. The overly clean-crisp concepts of certain eSports is too regimented. You can tell who wins a teamfight almost immediately, you can make a fairly accurate assesment of who’s going to win simply because of the team composition.

You can’t do that here, as much as the whiners like to say as much. Bunker guardian’s have their counters, even before they got nerfed. You never know when you’re going to encounter a team with a good coordination and odd builds that you’re unfamiliar with.

Or even just well built combinations that utilize abilities in ways you don’t know how to counter.

The Metagame is still way, way, WAY too early to be making the sweeping generalizations about balance players are talking about just because they got pub-stomped in sPvP.

But issues like battle cleanliness. I’ve got no problem, as a spectaor, or a player, when things get a little crowded and messy. It separates people out from those easily distracted by shinies from those who can keep their focus in the chaos.

Kalar, it’s not the question of focus or skill, it’s a question of how much work is done for the player by the AI, automatically.

Part of the issue with the Mesmer is that if you summon an illusion, like iBerserker, it will follow the target, attack it and cripple it, all done automatically with a single keypress. It will also continue to do so at set intervals until destroyed.

By comparison, there’s really nothing my Engineer can do that will perform the same thing. I can deploy a turret, but it won’t move. I can throw a grenade, but this is me throwing a grenade, not an automaton AI. Or take Phantasmal Defender and Phantasmal Disenchanter that automatically (passively you might say) perform certain tasks, and are again mobile.

I’m not totally anti-pet, but that’s just an awful lot of mechanization, where other classes have none at all. I mean, until this week, Engineers didn’t even have the option to autoattack on kits. And now that they do on some, on others (like grenade kit) it is still finger-breaking spam. Just the sheer APM (Actions Per Minute) some classes are forced into is a whole order of magnitude higher than say Mesmer Legion build where you spawn 3 phantasms and kite, reapplying as necessary.

Another aspect of pet AI is countering stealth. For example, in a Mesmer vs Anything but Mesmer, when Mesmer uses Decoy→Blink, he can be hard to reacquire quickly. But in a Mesmer vs Mesmer, same Decoy→Blink won’t fool the illusions. As soon as your stealth fades, illusions will head straight for you, tipping off the other Mesmer as to your location. Gives a strong and unfair advantage, IMHO.

You guys are wasting time trying to explain balance to people who defend mesmer…truly a waste of time…how can you have a civil conversation with somebody who dare to say that people are too stupid to recognize real mesmer after 3 BW and 1.5 month playing ?

fix the stealth bugs before you start spouting drivel about nerfs. seriously, its like complaining about having a dirty hand cuz you didnt take the time to take out the toilet paper first.

maybe when everyone becomes less obsessed with ZOMG single target damage and more interested in aoe builds that end up layering over other peoples aoe builds we’ll start worrying less about clones, thieves guilds, and stealthed people.

djtool.8372:

maybe when everyone becomes less obsessed with ZOMG single target damage and more interested in aoe builds that end up layering over other peoples aoe builds we’ll start worrying less about clones, thieves guilds, and stealthed people.

but there spec must be perfect they shouldnt have to adjust it!

My reply lenght became gigantic, so I’m just going to post the TL;DL version.

1. Every class has a pet mechanic, that comes with advantages and disadvantages. Mesmer’s core mechanic is that our illusions are both blindly focused on their objective, and die/cc easily. This makes up for the fact that they are moble.

2. The concept that AI bypasses stealth works for all AI. However, unlike other pet systems in which the pets will continue to aid the fight by attacking other targets once one goes stealth, a Mesmer’s pets will idle if their target is stealth, and will only re-target if the chosen target crosses the invisible wall of maximum control distance mesmer has while stealth.

Otherwise, the Illusions will chase the fleeing opponent until they reach max control distance, and then promptly fizzle. Turrets will remain even outside of max distance. Pets, Necro-minions, Elementals, Spirit Weapons, and Thieves will all theater back to their master.

Of the above listed. Necro-minions, Turrets not summoned by Supply Drop, have a duration limit. None of the the above aside from Mesmers die when their target is finished.

The Bottom Line: AI mechanics are an central part of this game and each classes’s mechanics. Each ‘pet’ has it’s own advantages and disadvantages, Mesmer illusions being no exception to this.

Edit: Oh look, it’s Captain Mesmer Hater himself. So kind of Arheundel to grace us with his presence.

Sorry, but once this guy enters the conversation, the side he supports loses all credibility.

How’s that 4th illusion working for you there buddy?

Auron.2657:

Nothing wrong with Thief’s or Mes in PvP. Do you guys realise how hard it is to not get caught playing a Thief? or How hard it can be for a mesmer to coordinate the right skills + order?

Or do you just go into SPvP, get owned by something you don’t understand, then cry OP ?

Well yes I do know how difficult it is but I don’t wan to call it that. Neither class over all is truly easy Mesmer takes time and strategy thief (dependent upon your build) does take some skill. That being said if I were to compare either class to lets say engineer or even more so ele I don’t think most players would call them more difficult than those 2. From a pure mechanics stand point Thief as a class has less risk entering into melee range then most others. On the other hand Mesmer wielding any weapon combo (timing and switching weapons also) has an abundance of available tools cc and harass dependent upon the case. None of this is bad. Most players have played these classes some actually get it.

However it cant be denied that sPvP (in terms of shear numbers) is dominated b these 2 classes.

djtool.8372:

maybe when everyone becomes less obsessed with ZOMG single target damage and more interested in aoe builds that end up layering over other peoples aoe builds we’ll start worrying less about clones, thieves guilds, and stealthed people.

While this is an option many classes including thief lack the over all aoe capability to do this. Also glass cannon for the most part is very effective. I have seen your suggestion done it will work but as I have said in previous post stealth is a core mechanic so are illusions nerf them out right you break not just the popular build but just about every build for both classes in one go.

Add steath “hard counters” to the game and the thief will be destroyed. Every MMO I have ever played has had a stealth class, and the forums were always full of stealth being god-mode propoganda. This is the damage absortion equivalent ability of the theif.

Mesmer…. Moa and some phantasm builds can be perceived as OP. Mesmer is my main, I do not play with Moa on my bar, and I do not spec for phantasms. Mobility/trickery/stealth are the damage absorbsion of this class. I have found, not using these OP or bugged vices, that many people just do not understand the mobility factor, and do not predict any moves beyond back step or roll. Those I fight that realize my mobility options are a thorn during the entire match.

AOEs…. This is perhaps the first game I have played that I did not find AOEs and Heals (and for the hatred of all that is stand still and spammy….Healing AOEs) to be overwhelmingly powerful. I hope the developers do not super charge ranged AOEs. Afterall, most melee abilities are already AOE based with limited splash range. I will never understand how people think AOEs are rare in this game.

Necro is an incredible team AOE support class. Why do we not hear constant complaints about them? Because they are doing their damage un-noticed while the person you focused on is being accredited for the damage.

Elementalists…. In a game with no true healer, there is an aweful lot of complaining about the weakness of this potential healing class. I know in most MMOs (with the exclusion of AOC), people are used to Healers being OP, impossible to kill 1v1, and required to compete in any size encounter, if their is not one on both sides the side lacking one loses. I am also aware that most of the masses think that to be acceptable and excepted. In a game that understands the fundamental flaw of expecting an archtype to be OP, Elementalists have a strong position once the expectation is gone that you can stand still and heal without threat of death.

100b warriors… I see them in pretty much every spvp match I have ever played. I can’t help be thinking about how many of these OP classes are considered OP because the losing team has a 100b warrior or 2, that once understood, can be all but ignored by the entire opposing team leaving it a 8v6 spank fest.

In all honesty, Rangers kick my butt all over the map on any of the 5 classes i have SPvPed with. Does this mean they are OP? No, it means I suck against them and need to level one to 30 and SPvP a couple dozen matches to understand whatever it is about them that I am just not comprehending.

Kalar Meadia.8439:

My reply lenght became gigantic, so I’m just going to post the TL;DL version.

1. Every class has a pet mechanic, that comes with advantages and disadvantages. Mesmer’s core mechanic is that our illusions are both blindly focused on their objective, and die/cc easily. This makes up for the fact that they are moble.

2. The concept that AI bypasses stealth works for all AI. However, unlike other pet systems in which the pets will continue to aid the fight by attacking other targets once one goes stealth, a Mesmer’s pets will idle if their target is stealth, and will only re-target if the chosen target crosses the invisible wall of maximum control distance mesmer has while stealth.

Otherwise, the Illusions will chase the fleeing opponent until they reach max control distance, and then promptly fizzle. Turrets will remain even outside of max distance. Pets, Necro-minions, Elementals, Spirit Weapons, and Thieves will all theater back to their master.

Of the above listed. Necro-minions, Turrets not summoned by Supply Drop, have a duration limit. None of the the above aside from Mesmers die when their target is finished.

The Bottom Line: AI mechanics are an central part of this game and each classes’s mechanics. Each ‘pet’ has it’s own advantages and disadvantages, Mesmer illusions being no exception to this.

Edit: Oh look, it’s Captain Mesmer Hater himself. So kind of Arheundel to grace us with his presence.

Sorry, but once this guy enters the conversation, the side he supports loses all credibility.

How’s that 4th illusion working for you there buddy?

I will stick to mesmer and necro pets because I know them and have next to no experience with ranger pets
1. Necro pets are slow and they do mostly not what they should do. If you switch target it can take (seriously, I am not exaggerating) 5-15 sec till the bugger comes back. That is if he switches at all. So no, your point no. 1 is simply not true simple because of the terrible pet AI of the necros.

Also, mesmer pets spawn, if you found a great position, next to you – a necro pet would just simply stand there and go duuuh.

2. Same for necro pets – that is if the AI doesn’t go nuts. Stealth, jumping about obstacles etc traditionally screws their pathing.

I will add some more stuff which was conveniently “forgotten”
3. Necro pets die easily and most are on a relative long cd. Mesmer’s are nearly in the same boat but they can spec easily to punish people if they destroy them…necro has to go into grandmaster which offers a laughable poison cloud.

4. Mesmer pets can easily be reproduced – necro’s can’t

5. Necro pets take up utility slots (and the utility they offer are, except the charge of the golem, paltry at best), mesmer’s don’t

6. The mesmer pets provide a great defense for the mesmer, necro pets are dangerous for their owner (aggro everything and their mother in pve)

Now you see why everyone sees mostly just a flesh golem in spvp because the difference is just huge. The necro pet mechanic is one of the worst I’ve seen in any mmo so far – and I have seen quite a few crap ones.

Oh and a fun fact: if a necro places marks on the ground and gets into downed state, they do not trigger anymore – a mesmer’s pet stays (both are weapon effects…just saying).

You’re making a lot arguments to fix a lot of Bugs, traits and bad AI’s in necromancer – arguments which I won’t argue against because I want them to happen.

But it has no bearing on Mesmer itself or the state it’s in, and your entire post becomes red herring if your approach is to nerf mesmer.

We shouldn’t be bringing pet builds down to the level of broken and ineffectual. We should be bringing the ones that aren’t working (mainly Necro pets) up to snuff.

Also, there are only 2 Phantasems that spawn next to the target. Warden and Berserker, and Warden is kinda lulzy in sPvP. It’s a good thing to keep in mind because Zerker has a 20 second cooldown before traits.

If you’re fleeing a greatsword Mesmer, remember to dodge.

I know, Kalar. I also made it clear (I hope that at least) that I just speak of the current state. As it is now, the mechanic for necros is just crap, annoying and cumbersome. Mostly because every form change despawns your pets and the elite even despawns when you enter water for a short time

I have played a mesmer since my first day in beta and haven’t changed since. I think I am probably one of the better sPvP mesmers but I am so tired of seeing mostly mesmers and thieves in pvp that I am considering changing my class. I picked mesmer because it was the underdog class, now I feel like there are far too many of them.

fallconn.6480:

I have played a mesmer since my first day in beta and haven’t changed since. I think I am probably one of the better sPvP mesmers but I am so tired of seeing mostly mesmers and thieves in pvp that I am considering changing my class. I picked mesmer because it was the underdog class, now I feel like there are far too many of them.

I agree that there are a lot of bandwagon Mesmers out there. I take a bit of giddy delight in schooling them, but beyond that I’d like diversity in matches.

I just take it as an opportunity to get more intimately familiar with other professions. And in doing so, it’s reaffirming my assertion that Mesmer is more misunderstood that overpowered. The knowledge of how the class operates really plays in my hands when fighting them.

Well, personally I think Thief is fine. Mesmer is a little strong in 1v1 and 1v2 (I made one speced him power and precision and was 1v2ing people within 5 minutes with S/P and Staff), and a little weak in larger group encounters. Guardian is a little too strong defensively and the only class that is pretty much required for tPvP.

What I do think needs to be changed is all quickness effects. Just remove them from the game and balance classes without them, please.

I love how Sorrow listed 5 of the 8 available classes as OP. I find your name quite fitting to your perspective.

People whining about Thieves need to roll one then post unedited videos of them face rolling matches. I want to see it. Until then your whining is simply that: whining. I play a Guard, Engi, Necro and Thief. Thief is bar none the most risk vs. reward oriented class I’ve played. It is also the most twitch focused.

Heartseeker got fixed, no one in their right mind spams it and if they are chances are they will lose. It’s the most efficient way to be inefficient. You’d get better DPS spamming Cluster then you would seeker. People aren’t encountering this phenomenon, they’re still riding the cry train from 2 weeks ago and referencing videos that are no longer applicable because they got rolled.

I dunno where this “there is no risk” garbage is coming from. As a D/D or P/D thief I die quite a bit. I see my fair share of pavement. What I don’t see are fellow thieves dominating the boards as often as you people claim.

There are good players and there are bad players.

People on the forums, my self not excluded, tend to fall into the mediocre crowd. I’m telling you now, if you keep getting rolled by any given class… you’re bad. Practice more and adjust your builds and, more importantly, habits.

When my best friend started pizzing and moaning that Mesmers were OP he didn’t find a sympathetic ear from me. What he got was me telling him to stop acting like a lone wolf and getting picked off because despite his misconception, he’s not Chuck fuggin Norris.

Yes, thats why I dont play sPvP anymore.
I play a ranger I guess people dont play those much anyway in sPvP.
The solution maybe is to make a Thief or Mesmer alt like everyone else.
If the sPvP population goes from 80% Thief and Mesmers like it is today to 95-100% the must do something

rickshaw.5279:

I love how Sorrow listed 5 of the 8 available classes as OP. I find your name quite fitting to your perspective.

People whining about Thieves need to roll one then post unedited videos of them face rolling matches. I want to see it. Until then your whining is simply that: whining. I play a Guard, Engi, Necro and Thief. Thief is bar none the most risk vs. reward oriented class I’ve played. It is also the most twitch focused.

Heartseeker got fixed, no one in their right mind spams it and if they are chances are they will lose. It’s the most efficient way to be inefficient. You’d get better DPS spamming Cluster then you would seeker. People aren’t encountering this phenomenon, they’re still riding the cry train from 2 weeks ago and referencing videos that are no longer applicable because they got rolled.

I dunno where this “there is no risk” garbage is coming from. As a D/D or P/D thief I die quite a bit. I see my fair share of pavement. What I don’t see are fellow thieves dominating the boards as often as you people claim.

There are good players and there are bad players.

People on the forums, my self not excluded, tend to fall into the mediocre crowd. I’m telling you now, if you keep getting rolled by any given class… you’re bad. Practice more and adjust your builds and, more importantly, habits.

When my best friend started pizzing and moaning that Mesmers were OP he didn’t find a sympathetic ear from me. What he got was me telling him to stop acting like a lone wolf and getting picked off because despite his misconception, he’s not Chuck fuggin Norris.

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video, I’ll post you some that are freely available on youtube for your pleasure. All are after heartseeker nerf.

There are 2 of the bunch I’ve seen on youtube.
I think they are enough.

rickshaw.5279:

I love how Sorrow listed 5 of the 8 available classes as OP. I find your name quite fitting to your perspective.

People whining about Thieves need to roll one then post unedited videos of them face rolling matches. I want to see it. Until then your whining is simply that: whining. I play a Guard, Engi, Necro and Thief. Thief is bar none the most risk vs. reward oriented class I’ve played. It is also the most twitch focused.

Heartseeker got fixed, no one in their right mind spams it and if they are chances are they will lose. It’s the most efficient way to be inefficient. You’d get better DPS spamming Cluster then you would seeker. People aren’t encountering this phenomenon, they’re still riding the cry train from 2 weeks ago and referencing videos that are no longer applicable because they got rolled.

I dunno where this “there is no risk” garbage is coming from. As a D/D or P/D thief I die quite a bit. I see my fair share of pavement. What I don’t see are fellow thieves dominating the boards as often as you people claim.

There are good players and there are bad players.

People on the forums, my self not excluded, tend to fall into the mediocre crowd. I’m telling you now, if you keep getting rolled by any given class… you’re bad. Practice more and adjust your builds and, more importantly, habits.

When my best friend started pizzing and moaning that Mesmers were OP he didn’t find a sympathetic ear from me. What he got was me telling him to stop acting like a lone wolf and getting picked off because despite his misconception, he’s not Chuck fuggin Norris.

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video, I’ll post you some that are freely available on youtube for your pleasure. All are after heartseeker nerf.

There are 2 of the bunch I’ve seen on youtube.
I think they are enough.

Meh i dont really think thieves or mesmers are that much of a problem. Unlike some of the newer guardians with strangely build defensive/heal builds, thief and mesmer can actually be countered -_-

I don’t feel either of them is OP… I can beat either with my ranger or guardian 75% of the time.

What I DO think i OP is their downed states… with my guardian I knock people away and 3 seconds later I’m dead. My ranger? Forget knocking anyone anywhere, I’m just dead, period. Pretty much the same with elementalist, certainly with warrior. Necro you turn and run a few secs then they’re dead.

Mesmer and thief and their invis and tp’ing around is ridiculous… it takes so long to finish them off 50% of the time a certain kill with any other class ends up with help coming and saving them because it just takes too long.

Z

Mesmer/Thief has been my most played classes since beta.

Stealth is INSANELY strong in this game, stronger than any game out there.

They both have insanely effective and annoying kill combo’s, on top of the most effective survivability (actual escapes). Oh and Bunker Mesmer is insane. =p

Phantasm builds are broken as hell (phantasms shouldn’t be allowed to be that tanky outside of Defender).

Quickness is an extremely stupid mechanic, the game is bursty enough w/o it, make quickness classes have to actually set up spike like Ele/Necro/Engy.

Stealth is INSANELY strong in this game, stronger than any game out there.

Obviously, you have never played WoW. lol I would take WoW stealth any day.

Quickness is an extremely stupid mechanic, the game is bursty enough w/o it, make quickness classes have to actually set up spike like Ele/Necro/Engy.

The problem is that the classes that have quickness effects have been balanced around them, which is why I am all for removing quickness and balancing classes without the effect (speaking as someone who plays Thief main and Ranger alt).

sorrow:

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video…

Read as, “I can’t make the Thief look OP so I’ll claim laziness”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPL3_uEyGM

Fight #1 3v1. Yes, the Thief was soooo OP there. /rolleyes
Fight #2 2v1 vs. Glass cannon Thief. Clearly a severe case of OP. I see what you mean.
Fight #3 2v1 vs. fleeing 1/2 dead opponent…
Fight #4 2v1 vs. another 1/2 dead opponent…

And that’s just the first 5 minutes. Any class can run around looking for numbered advantage against weakened opponents. He, in fact, avoided 2 confrontations because of this. The video was funny, that’s about it. All it illustrated was HS is strong as a finisher…. which is exactly what it’s designed for. In fight 2 he tossed 5 HS’s against his opponent and it still didn’t go down.

All this video did was validate my post and invalidate your whining.

sorrow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

Love this video… oozing butthurt from an elementalist who’s probably all sad face because the most intricate class in the game is too hard for him to wrap his brain around. Cherry picked fade in and/out’s… awesome evidence you got there. I can make a naked Engi look like the most devastating force on the field with Cherry picked WvW footage.

All in all you need to spend less time on the forums saying that FIVE OF THE EIGHT CLASSES IN THE GAME ARE OVERPOWERED and spend more time learning the game you’re getting bent out of shape over.

/discussion

Ashanor.5319:

Stealth is INSANELY strong in this game, stronger than any game out there.

Obviously, you have never played WoW. lol I would take WoW stealth any day.

Quickness is an extremely stupid mechanic, the game is bursty enough w/o it, make quickness classes have to actually set up spike like Ele/Necro/Engy.

The problem is that the classes that have quickness effects have been balanced around them, which is why I am all for removing quickness and balancing classes without the effect (speaking as someone who plays Thief main and Ranger alt).

I agree with your 2nd bit.

But as far as your first I definately disagree. Perma Stealth wouldn’t mean crap in conquest, they have to come out eventually to cap a node or fight someone.

Difference is, wow’s stealth could be broken with dmg, could be seen through, and had only 1-2 ways to go into it IN combat on a long cooldown.

Stealth here can’t be broken, can’t be seen through, works in combat, and has a super short cooldown in comparison and multiple abilities that stealth you.

Do a crap ton of dmg, stealth away, re-open, stealth away, re-open. You can do it as much as you have depending on your build.

I’d take thieves with WoW stealth any day. =p

Otherwise, the Illusions will chase the fleeing opponent until they reach max control distance, and then promptly fizzle. Turrets will remain even outside of max distance.

Dude, you really should play an Engi with turrets to realize just how much they suck.

For one, they don’t target whatever you’re targeting. They pick a target at random, and switch often. This alone makes them a totally unviable choice in anything but a 1v1, because they will spread damage all over the place and without focus fire you’ll never take anyone down.

Second, they die from a sneeze. Because, unlike illusions, they don’t scale with the Engi’s stats. Some people said they do scale with power/condition damage, but not vitality and toughness. But those results were inconclusive – tooltip changed, but the actual damage seemed to remain the same. Even fully traited, they’re a joke.

Seriously, turrets are in such a pathetic state right now. Long cooldowns, immobile, relatively short range, pathetic damage, too easy to destroy.

I agree with your 2nd bit.

But as far as your first I definately disagree. Perma Stealth wouldn’t mean crap in conquest, they have to come out eventually to cap a node or fight someone.

Difference is, wow’s stealth could be broken with dmg, could be seen through, and had only 1-2 ways to go into it IN combat on a long cooldown.

Stealth here can’t be broken, can’t be seen through, works in combat, and has a super short cooldown in comparison and multiple abilities that stealth you.

Do a crap ton of dmg, stealth away, re-open, stealth away, re-open. You can do it as much as you have depending on your build.

I’d take thieves with WoW stealth any day. =p

Spoken like someone who never played a Rogue in WoW to it’s full potential. With proper talents, it wasn’t hard to get back into stealth. First you had vanish of course, on a couple minute cooldown. Second, it only took 5 seconds out of combat (talented) to get back into stealth if I remember correctly. Getting out of combat in WoW was much easier than getting out of combat in many other games. Gouge or stun them and start running out of range, by the time they could react you would already be back in stealth. WoW stealth and the Rogue class in general was infinitely better than Thieves in GW2. They just had more tools to get the job done properly.

Yes, AoE damage would knock you out of stealth in WoW, but the classes that could do that were limited and it was hard to guess at where they were since stealth was unlimited duration. They may be 50 feet away waiting for you to start walking away again or could be right behind you. If damage knocked you out of stealth in this game stealth would be completely useless. Thieves almost constantly take large amounts of damage while stealthed because they generally are close up and people are still spamming attacks when you stealth.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. Rogue is clearly light years ahead of Thief. You would never hear the end of the crying (and you still haven’t in WoW after all these years) if Rogues existed here instead of Thieves.

Ashanor.5319:

Spoken like someone who never played a Thief in GW2 to it’s full potential.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. Thief is clearly light years ahead of Rogue. You would never hear the end of the crying if Rogues had Thieves’ stealth.

I can throw that right back at you.

@ Aelona
My rifle axe/shield warrior doesn’t have much AoE to deal with stealth. Although I see where you’re coming from by saying a good engi has enough tools to reliably deal with mesmers, in my experience warriors do not have enough tools to deal reliably with mesmers.
I’m pretty good. I’m definitely not a professional I could get better. But at this point I feel extremely comfortable saying warriors are limited when compared with mesmers and thieves.
So I will continue to get better. You should try making a warrior and reliably taking down mesmers and thieves.

Warrior with bow don’t have that much problems either you can swap weapons while you re not in combat (from the inventory I mean), use that possibility !

It’s not because you spec in a certain way with 2 weapons in mind than the possibilities offered by the others will suddenly be bad. And a bow warrior is really, really, really good at lightin fire, if you see what I mean. On top, like any ranged, you ll have a sort of advantage at usin cross combos and you can put some nasty cross combos aoe on your own, that will shut down phantasms hella fast.

So if you re pretty good just adapt mate look at the enemy team composition and “predict” what you ll face, just make sure to have the most handy situational weapons in your inventory

Asmodean.5820:

“Ppl should complain about 100b warriors too then and bunker engi who can take 3 ppl at a time, self ress and so on. l2p and stop complaining”

You know, this “l2p” bully behaviour is getting old. Simply because people LOVE those specs and classes because they do not require of them what the yell always into other people’s faces: to “l2p”. Think about that.

It’s not bullying. If anything, you’re the bullies. You’re trying to ruin our game. I play every class except Ranger, Guardian, and Mesmer. They bore me. I don’t feel underpowered on any class. I play several specs on each class and I am capable of filling any role. Your argument of, “You’re just a nerd on a powertrip with an OP spec/class.” is unsubstantiated by the fact that every class and spec I play feels “overpowered.”

Tbh I think that the funniest class to play is by miles the necromancer. That class have it all, yet everyone think it’s underpowered, haha

Ashanor.5319:

Stealth is INSANELY strong in this game, stronger than any game out there.

Obviously, you have never played WoW. lol I would take WoW stealth any day.

Quickness is an extremely stupid mechanic, the game is bursty enough w/o it, make quickness classes have to actually set up spike like Ele/Necro/Engy.

The problem is that the classes that have quickness effects have been balanced around them, which is why I am all for removing quickness and balancing classes without the effect (speaking as someone who plays Thief main and Ranger alt).

Thief as far as I can tell is not balanced around quickness just stealth. Ranger on the other hand is to a degree. thief would not break without quickness it would likely be fine as no build actually requires it. Range with short bow on the other hand have to gain positioning in order to fully utilize quickness crits make this possible. Noticeably rangers are far from the top played in sPvP on WvW the story changes but that is another topic entirely.

The term “OP” has been tossed around a lot. Mesmers are not “OP” if you target the real one we cant do much except play well (Moa Withheld as I do not use it). Thief isn’t “OP” over all the health pool is usually small and requires stealth to accomplish most task that not saying all is well and balanced but “OP” isn’t what I observed just a multitude of one class and another up and coming. In all fairness I could have asked if guardians do the same or earth/water ele or bunker engi but bunker build for the most part can be bled down and aren’t as common.

Aelona.8572:

Tbh I think that the funniest class to play is by miles the necromancer. That class have it all, yet everyone think it’s underpowered, haha

I agree with burst being the current way and condition wipes being more of a staple of balanced and bunker builds I imagine a well played Necro could have a field day if not burned down quickly. However Necromancer still has some glaring class issues. Its far from UP and far from Op but not quite balanced yet. Kind of like warrior its in the middle.

PeteyPen.7136:

Thieves that turn invisible multiple times and take forever to reappear are unmanageable. Also, I think initiative makes it too easy for them to spam. Any other class that misses a link in their combo will have to wait for the cool down or find a way to improvise. A thief who misses #2 dagger will just press #2 dagger again. In contrast, once a warrior misses his frenzy 100 B basically out of options.

I just can’t stop be amazed how some people are constantly trying to present a disadvantage for advantage.Initiative mechanic is far more limiting compared to CD mechanic.In your eyes,thief can spam whatever he wants,but in reality every skill he uses(and thus spending initiative) is putting a hidden cooldown on every other skill he intend to use in the following seconds.Including the skills in his offhand weapon.
Please,just please try to spam any stealth giving ability.It is nor #2,but #5 and it cost’s
6 initiative out from 12 initiative pool.One missed C&D and you are half way dead…
and let me tell you it’s the most sensitive skill ever.It has the lowest range 130,and it has cast time.And as i said above 6 initiative equals 10 seconds of time to regenerate.
One missed C&D=10 seconds CD on a ALL future skills (or ALL present skills if you are already low on initiative).
There are a lot thief spammers in SPvP,that’s true.But they just spam HeartSeeker and those are generaly the worst players ever and the easiest victims.All they can achieve
is stealing kills from their teammates just to see they name on the kills screen.
And as for you,i assume you are talking from warriors POW.I am a stealth/condition thief with zero crit and zero burst.I have defeated hundreds of clueless warriors in
SPvP,but once in a while i run in to some warrior,that DESTROYS me so ultimately(whitout me making any mistakes).That leads me to the conclusion that the warrior have the tools needed,just few are bothering to master their class.
I myself follow the same tactic:i have only one 80 character: thief.I have about 1000 games,played as a thief and 0 played as none thief.I like my class and i want to put efforts to be a good thief.Maybe you are willing to to the same,instead of asking for nerfs.Cheers.

I’m so tired of hearing how “squishy” poor thieves are. I get it, if you don’t know how to weaponswap and leeroy into a middle of the mob for your backstab, you go boom.

Good thieves can pew pew with their shortbow from far away and do incredible damage and not be squishy. Once a character drops below 60%, they perform their instajib with daggers or sword or whatever the want and are back out with their very mobile and very effective shortbow, especially when paired with stealth.

Finally, beyond OP, can we just talk about fun? People love talking about the ways to counter stealth, but I want to ask the question of: is it fun?

For me, casting AOE on the ground randomly, isn’t fun. Nor is standing with my finger hovering over my stun break / defense for when buddy pops up. Is it imba? Sometimes, it doesn’t matter, it’s just not fun. Neither is fighting a long fight only to find out that someone’s thieves guild just recharged….. Just like Moa, is it imba? I don’t know. Is it fun? No!

It’d be like giving someone a triple thieves guild (spits out 6 thieves) but it has a 500 second recharge. Maybe the “recharge” balances it. But regardless of the recharge, that skill isn’t “fun”.

If we are all going to treat this like a job, fine. Jobs have things that aren’t fun and we suck it up. Games? Non-fun mechanics in games generally don’t turn out well.

It’s lots of fun for thieves. For whatever reason, more than anything else, people love run around like assassins, esp when everyone else isn’t assassins. The instajib on unsuspecting players is fun.

Getting instajibbed? Not fun. Playing hot join and having to always “watch” (or better yet, feel, as lots of thieves will stealth before coming over a hill etc.) for the thief that can instajib you? Not fun.

The excuses for why thieves are ok are poor. Initiative is often quoted, but ignores all the way they can get around it, and more importantly, the benefits of it compared to cool downs.

The squishy is for thieves that can’t position and don’t understand how to use the shortbow or other ranged damage.

I haven’t played my thief in a while (makes me feel dirty!), but I remember lots of 1.5k-2.5K trick shots bouncing off three people (1.5-7.5K per button click? Sign me up)…. for an auto attack. Not too shabby, complete with an evade shot and a teleport shot. All in the same weapon….

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, as I skipped 90% of the flame posts in this thread. But…. Has anyone mentioned the new 1 shot thief build? It’s been going around in WvW lately and it’s immensely annoying. The hardest I’ve been his is 12k as someone who specs toughness and survivability. However, I have friends that have been hit as hard as 19k. That’s 19k in one hit. If that isn’t unreasonable I don’t know what is. I don’t care about any other thief spec out there. They all have counters. But any class that can do over 25k damage in a matter of 2 seconds is over power in my book.

rickshaw.5279:

sorrow:

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video…

Read as, “I can’t make the Thief look OP so I’ll claim laziness”.

Lol, why do I have to make another video of me facerolling guys as a thief if there are bunch on the internet? Do you want a video of myself pounching the keyboard and winning as a thief to be happy? Is the ones I’ve posted not enough to you?

sorrow:

sorrow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPL3_uEyGM

Fight #1 3v1. Yes, the Thief was soooo OP there. /rolleyes
Fight #2 2v1 vs. Glass cannon Thief. Clearly a severe case of OP. I see what you mean.
Fight #3 2v1 vs. fleeing 1/2 dead opponent…
Fight #4 2v1 vs. another 1/2 dead opponent…

And that’s just the first 5 minutes. Any class can run around looking for numbered advantage against weakened opponents. He, in fact, avoided 2 confrontations because of this. The video was funny, that’s about it. All it illustrated was HS is strong as a finisher…. which is exactly what it’s designed for. In fight 2 he tossed 5 HS’s against his opponent and it still didn’t go down.

All this video did was validate my post and invalidate your whining.

So, you are clearly avoiding to see the truth. We have one thief in this video running with almost no traits, just one weapon and attacking while pounching the keyboard and he succeded to get the first position of the match. In a situation of balance, he wouldn’t win anything. Also, if you pay attention, he didn’t used the healing skill at all.

Look at the last fight against the warrior, it is the most significant. Looking at first 5 minutes of the video than claiming that it is invalid is just stupid.

rickshaw.5279:

sorrow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

Love this video… oozing butthurt from an elementalist who’s probably all sad face because the most intricate class in the game is too hard for him to wrap his brain around. Cherry picked fade in and/out’s… awesome evidence you got there. I can make a naked Engi look like the most devastating force on the field with Cherry picked WvW footage.

All in all you need to spend less time on the forums saying that FIVE OF THE EIGHT CLASSES IN THE GAME ARE OVERPOWERED and spend more time learning the game you’re getting bent out of shape over.

/discussion

Again, here is my fantastic graph to let guys like you understand what unbalancing is, since it doesn’t look like you really understand it.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2zhe6hd.png
If you don’t know how to read cartesian planes, just ask.

I believe the reason you see so many of these is that they can pub stomp with ease. Only the best players caan cope with them.

Thieves are a mess in the game right now, alot of people complained about stealth and thought gw2 was the savior because it features short bursts of stealth, but it ended up being even more OP than WoW rogues because you can fight WHILL stealthed and 3 shot people whill being untargetable and its the most pathetic balancing ive ever seen in a game ever

It really IS killing the game and pvp, because no one is playing 7 of the 8 classes in pvp, thieves are just too OP and easy to play atm

Nerf thieves before the game dies please

quit playing hot join or stop complaining about thieves. we’re not op unless you suck or you don’t pay attention in team fights. mesmers aren’t op either. yes they have the best 1v1 in the game right now, but they are drop dead useless in team fights at higher level tournament play, being used only for mobility and confusion.. and thieves suck at everything besides roaming in tournaments. if anythings op it’s the kittening down state and everyone kittening has it.

@Lawbringer.1956 (since I cant quote atm)

I will say it again of you nerf stealth you break all not one all thief builds in one go. Basically you break the class. All the build you don’t see p/d p/p go bye bye and the worst part its a pve punishment as well. If we cry nerf stealth that wont help the situation. I think we have discussed here is that the reward for melee stealth is way too high given how much dps a thief can put out.

I will admit I have a vested interest my main is P/D that build is beyond over looked with out stealth it would become unplayable.

Lawbringer.1956:

Thieves are a mess in the game right now, alot of people complained about stealth and thought gw2 was the savior because it features short bursts of stealth, but it ended up being even more OP than WoW rogues because you can fight WHILL stealthed and 3 shot people whill being untargetable and its the most pathetic balancing ive ever seen in a game ever

It really IS killing the game and pvp, because no one is playing 7 of the 8 classes in pvp, thieves are just too OP and easy to play atm

Nerf thieves before the game dies please

this right here is a PERFECT example of a nerf wanting crybaby who doesnt take th time to figure out things before he posts.

because if he did he would know that stealth has both rendering issues and some bugs that favor the thief. thus making life more difficult for players then it should be. right now thieves are not usually visible for the full 3 seconds, but more like 1 cuz of rendering/lag.

i fully expect this person to reply with a who cares comment and proceed to say even if it was fixed itd be overpowered anyways cuz he has some kind of ability to see the future.

good day gentlemen

Hype.9361:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, as I skipped 90% of the flame posts in this thread. But…. Has anyone mentioned the new 1 shot thief build? It’s been going around in WvW lately and it’s immensely annoying. The hardest I’ve been his is 12k as someone who specs toughness and survivability. However, I have friends that have been hit as hard as 19k. That’s 19k in one hit. If that isn’t unreasonable I don’t know what is. I don’t care about any other thief spec out there. They all have counters. But any class that can do over 25k damage in a matter of 2 seconds is over power in my book.

its very well documented adn even thieves think its stupid. its more of a problem with certain traits/utility skills tho rather then base damage

Wolfe.3097:

Hype.9361:

Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet, as I skipped 90% of the flame posts in this thread. But…. Has anyone mentioned the new 1 shot thief build? It’s been going around in WvW lately and it’s immensely annoying. The hardest I’ve been his is 12k as someone who specs toughness and survivability. However, I have friends that have been hit as hard as 19k. That’s 19k in one hit. If that isn’t unreasonable I don’t know what is. I don’t care about any other thief spec out there. They all have counters. But any class that can do over 25k damage in a matter of 2 seconds is over power in my book.

its very well documented adn even thieves think its stupid. its more of a problem with certain traits/utility skills tho rather then base damage

The thing is the devs seem to be wanting to favor glass cannons even more in the future regardless of the class and focusing less on defense. Which for many players such as myself who aren’t quite bunker but realize glass is far from truly being glass have to deal with cannons all the time. The game is still young so balancing will come with time but for now its hard to say what class/spec will end up on top. hopefully all of them.

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

sorrow.2364:

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

I like the sarcasm in your post. Allow me to annoy you a little more. Thieves take more skill than Warriors at full potential.

Schwahrheit.4203:

sorrow.2364:

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

I like the sarcasm in your post. Allow me to annoy you a little more. Thieves take more skill than Warriors at full potential.

That is debatable however most Mesmers if you control + T them cant do too much except play well (as has been stated many times before).

As far as skill goes if the majority uses the same builds and wins the most with those builds does that mean each and every one of them playing the same class with the same build is equally skilled as they get the same results with the same effort? Seriously take a second to think about it.

Ohh and as far skill goes I have seen some eles chain all four elements keeping up with the unique cool downs of each one and have much success. As far as skill does imho that is the epitome of skill in this game.

Let’s be realistic mesmrs, thieves or any class for that mattr is not ruining any competetive pvp. All these complaints are specific to hot join. I don’t know of any top ranked team or even any mediocre structured pvp team that is winning or using some magic all mesmer or thief team.

Mesmers or theifs or any class isn’t OP against good players they are good against bad players. Guess what thou bad players lose to all classes all the time anyway. If your still having a hard time against a mesmer because of their illusions then you will never get better because if you can’t beat a computer AI you won’t beat a player controlled toon. If a thief is always beating you when it takes less then 3 gcd to kill them then you will never beat them, the fact that they cloak and then require 3 more gcd’s to kill isn’t some OP ability.

Its just sad. No one has ever died due to a class and the proof is when you die the class killing u doesn’t pop up rather the spells that killed you. Focus on that so you can avoid them next time.