Guild Wars 2

Class vs build you would need to specify as a build can have more advantages than weaknesses and in many situations skilled or not skilled works in such a matter that you will win whether you put a lot of effort in or a little. Structured teams are a different story the combos you can run there are unique and team work trumps all all the time. A gourp full a thieves with team work could burn just about anything down same with mesmers or any team of any class mind you.

I find it funny how in situations full of opportunity we are surprised that opportunistic hunters tend to thrive in pre formed teams isn’t the point to keep opportunities low for the other team?

sorrow.2364:

@Auron: What is hard? Spamming all your clones and phantasms, coupled with your stuns and Moa Morph and than waiting for the target to die? What is the “right skills + order”?

Seriously, I just want to figure out where the hard part is.

I’m sorry… you seem to be under the impression that Phantasms are the Mesmer’s strength… Phantasms are helpful, I’ll grant you that, but any half way decent play can counter a Phantasm build Mesmer. And honestly, if you at this point can’t detected the real Mesmer, you need to PvP more.

The only build even up for discussion as to if it’s OP is a shatter build, which relies on destroying your clones — not spamming them. A condition Mesmer is strong but definitely not OP.

Play the class to 80 (if you have not already) then come back and talk to us about how OP Mesmer is — I don’t think you understand how much more complicated it is to manage a Mesmer when compared to most classes — it takes a lot more micro management thanks to our illusions.

Arius.7031:

sorrow.2364:

@Auron: What is hard? Spamming all your clones and phantasms, coupled with your stuns and Moa Morph and than waiting for the target to die? What is the “right skills + order”?

Seriously, I just want to figure out where the hard part is.

I’m sorry… you seem to be under the impression that Phantasms are the Mesmer’s strength… Phantasms are helpful, I’ll grant you that, but any half way decent play can counter a Phantasm build Mesmer. And honestly, if you at this point can’t detected the real Mesmer, you need to PvP more.

The only build even up for discussion as to if it’s OP is a shatter build, which relies on destroying your clones — not spamming them. A condition Mesmer is strong but definitely not OP.

Play the class to 80 (if you have not already) then come back and talk to us about how OP Mesmer is — I don’t think you understand how much more complicated it is to manage a Mesmer when compared to most classes — it takes a lot more micro management thanks to our illusions.

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.

1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

TheGuy.3568:

Schwahrheit.4203:

sorrow.2364:

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

I like the sarcasm in your post. Allow me to annoy you a little more. Thieves take more skill than Warriors at full potential.

That is debatable however most Mesmers if you control + T them cant do too much except play well (as has been stated many times before).

As far as skill goes if the majority uses the same builds and wins the most with those builds does that mean each and every one of them playing the same class with the same build is equally skilled as they get the same results with the same effort? Seriously take a second to think about it.

Ohh and as far skill goes I have seen some eles chain all four elements keeping up with the unique cool downs of each one and have much success. As far as skill does imho that is the epitome of skill in this game.

I’m sure your post is full of interesting things and acute observations and I really want to have the pleasure to answer it, but the total absence of commas is an hard challange to my poor english skills.

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

I think it’s just a problem of numbers. I’v ekilled my share of thieves and mesmers, as I’ve been killed by nearly as many. When I lose the 1v1, it’s probably because I screwed up or the other guy’s just better (since I killed both profs in 1v1 before). I think people are just sick of seeing so many thiefs and mesmers, even if they kill them all the time. Would nerfing these profs help? No it won’t, the FOTM’ers will just jump on some other profs that then becomes “OP” and the cycle continues.

IMO: NEVER use hot-join prof usage numbers to judge balance. If certain builds appear to be unbalanced in Tournaments, then that needs a fix, but overwhelming numbers of certain profs should go down in time, as those players will get bored with it and move on to other classes.

Arius.7031:

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

It is ridiculous that people defend builds, by effectively arguing that their untraited builds with no utility skills are weak.

No kidding??!

Thieves are paralyzed by initiative issues, apparently mesmers has fits trying to get up clones etc all based on an untraited build….

Let’s stop ignoring traits, its ridiculous and is disingenuous. Also, I have no idea what the level to 80 comments mean. This is a pvp forum. Who cares about leveling?

The problem with thieves and mesmers is rendering, often they are intended to be visible yet their models haven’t loaded yet for the enemy, so they get 1-2 extra seconds of invisibility that they can even use to attack with.

This is double with mesmer clones as many moves that create a clone and move or invisible the mesmer have a delay on the enemy screens for both the clone and the real mesmer to show up.

They are the two most played classes in spvp for a reason.

sorrow.2364:

I’m sure your post is full of interesting things and acute observations and I really want to have the pleasure to answer it, but the total absence of commas is an hard challange to my poor english skills.

“challenge”

“English” http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_English_word_begin_with_a_capital_E

No one likes a grammar nazi especially when they’re a hypocrite.

If you don’t want to read that fine but I could care less if there were a typo in what someone else had to say the content is what is important. Please don’t pull down the quality of this thread as we have had decent discussion.

In my Opinion all those annoying bunker builds on Engineer, Elementalist & Guardians are the thing that destroys tPvP pretty much …. just met another 2 bunker Guardians + 2 Bunker Eles +1 Mesmer combo and this is pretty much the setup I meet about 90% of the lsat round matches.

The Game was designed to NOT have any Tank/Healer professions (well … that’s at least what ANet said -.-) … and as it stands right now there are tons of “Tanks” and “I Heal myselfe up the whole time” builds out there that you can’t kill solo and that almost can’t be killed by 2 ppl .. mostly there are min. 3 ppl needed to take them down fast enough.

I don’t get why people flame about Thieves and Mesmers … they are only pwnz0rs in sPvP matches where they can pick kills in 8vs8 zergs and where tons of new players that don’t even know how to play are in, but in tPvP you feel pretty useless as Thief since you can’t even nuke down an Elementalist or a Guardian and you’
r just supposed to be the 1st guy being killed thanks to teams that know how to fokus and you’re the guy that is only there to roam around. They’ll just throw you around the map like a piece of paper while you can’t do anything but watch as they instand revive their teammates or finishing your teammates.

Oni.6841:

Arius.7031:

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

It is ridiculous that people defend builds, by effectively arguing that their untraited builds with no utility skills are weak.

No kidding??!

Thieves are paralyzed by initiative issues, apparently mesmers has fits trying to get up clones etc all based on an untraited build….

Let’s stop ignoring traits, its ridiculous and is disingenuous. Also, I have no idea what the level to 80 comments mean. This is a pvp forum. Who cares about leveling?

I was speaking specifically about two treated builds, the common phantasm build and the common shatter build. A phantasm build is not OP at all, a shatter build is OP to a small extent, though it’s cancelled out by other very common builds. The guy was complaining about Phantasms, when Phantasm builds are arguably our weaker builds (though this is not the case every time).

The point I’m trying to make is that he’s complaining about something that isn’t overpowered to begin with… Phantasms die really quick, Phantasms do only decent damage, they’re on 6-12 second cooldowns, they’re not OP in the slightest. I don’t want people assuming that something is OP because they’ve been killed by it. If someone wants to bring me decent evidence suggesting that Phantasms are completely OP, and that Mesmers are simple and that all you have to do is spam phantasms like sorrow suggests, I’m open to it. Until then, I can tell you, as a Mesmer who has tried many builds, Phantasms are generally speaking not OP.

Well now they’re on a 20 second thing average, even though it wasn’t the adjustment those who were complaining were talking about.

Oddly, they were adjustments to iDuelist and iWarlock, one of which I don’t even use in my rotation, and the other winds up sitting on it’s cooldown fairly often.

Not exactly sure why Signets needed a nerf on both Mesmer AND Elementalist, I don’t think anyone was complaining about those in particular, but it will up the frequency of people who turn up their mouse sensitivity, at least.

Arius.7031:

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

“1.5k”?
lmao

“2-3k per clone”
Er, that adds up to 8-12k in one hit.

How can I give anything you say any credit if you say stuff like this?

some thoughts….

I mained a mesmer from the get go because i liked the concept not to be flavor of the month so that said…

Ive noticed that mesmer utilities that give access to stealth ie decoy, mass invis, wall that grants invis all are huge for being able to get in and get out. can pretty much survive by running in a pinch and thats a huge plus!

blink is probable the best though because its a get out of jail free card with the relocate and stun break, cant count how many times that has saved my kitten.

damage… well greatsword 1 (the main ranged attack) is lackluster but reliable, mirror blade with its bounce can be “ok” and the knock back is good utility but nothing too fancy.

sword mainhand is all about number 2 that hits like a truck and makes invincable during channel. requires standing still though so anyone with a brain cell will dodge back and wait it out. pretty good though to pop it out on theves/warriors who are trying to power you down and hope they are burning some good abilities during the distortion.

I try and get out the greatsword phantasm and the swordsman phantasm (sword offhand for the block) they can give damage a bump but its hit and miss with them.

clones on dodge are really really nice… Some people can tell the difference but others will follow the clones around to their demise. I figure its just a mater of time till people figure out how to identify the real mesmer and them the meta game will shift and clones will be shatter fodder and nothing else.

is mesmer op? I dont know… Ive only ever played mesmer and I have a lot of structure pvp experience from warhammer online so I think of myself as a kitten good player. So taking down theves warriors gaurdians necros eles other mesmers 1v1 to me feels pretty normal because when they are good its a challenge but two good people can almost always take me down if they work together… thats where the cloaking run away pick your fights stealthy utilities come in.

o and one last thing… moa is lame sauce and I use mass invis for an extra get out of jail free card…

just some extra opinion in case someone can make some use of it. have a nice night!

@Pinkbunnies : 2 players together should ALWAYS bring you down, except if you manage to escape.

If you have read what you’ve written, you can see that mesmers have nearly only good points. What’s the drawback of a mesmer ? And more, mesmer is op because it’s a class (like thief) that is very easy to get a assassination build, or anything, that is very hard to counter.
It takes you 5 minutes to understand how to do that with thief/mesmer. It takes you hours to time perfectly you stunbreak, stability or whatever, it takes you hours to know who to hit and what to do first against a Mesmer. Yes it’s op.

I challenge to to fight a whole team of mesmers! I challenge you! It would probably crash the game because of all the clones

Yes, they are. Thieves and mesmers are ruining tPvP.

agree with burst being the current way and condition wipes being more of a staple of balanced and bunker builds I imagine a well played Necro could have a field day if not burned down quickly. However Necromancer still has some glaring class issues. Its far from UP and far from Op but not quite balanced yet. Kind of like warrior its in the middle.

I wont go in tournament without a nec and an engie in the team personally. Necro can play a lot of roles and that’s why people are strugglin with it, beyond the fact its kinda hard to build efficiently the class demand a truelly high awareness of the situation, more than any other of the class in game simply because it got many tools with rather low cooldown that can be usefull in a lot of situations, they can annoy the hell out of everything with conditions, and by usin proper cross combos the damage they can deal is absolutely insane.

It’s one of the class, like engie for example that totally shine when people know how and when to support them with the appropriate tool.

Kisses.1054:

Arius.7031:

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

“1.5k”?
lmao

“2-3k per clone”
Er, that adds up to 8-12k in one hit.

How can I give anything you say any credit if you say stuff like this?

I have no clue what you’re even trying to say. You do realize I specifically stated that 2-3k per clone came from shattering, whereas 1.5k was phantasm damage, right? Or am I simply misunderstanding you? In fact, most shatter builds only have the ability to shatter 3 clones, we can take a trait that gives the shatter effect to our character as well, but a lot of shatter builds don’t — it makes you the squishiest thing in existence.

I specifically said Shatter builds can be considered OP, though they’re easily dealt with by tanky builds. Warriors and thieves can both match that damage, and any tank build can negate a huge part of it… so yeah, it’s not exactly “ruining PvP”, especially when you consider the guy was saying Phantasms were the OP ones, which they aren’t but the devs nerfed them anyway so now they suck.

TheGuy.3568:

sorrow.2364:

I’m sure your post is full of interesting things and acute observations and I really want to have the pleasure to answer it, but the total absence of commas is an hard challange to my poor english skills.

“challenge”

“English” http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_English_word_begin_with_a_capital_E

No one likes a grammar nazi especially when they’re a hypocrite.

If you don’t want to read that fine but I could care less if there were a typo in what someone else had to say the content is what is important. Please don’t pull down the quality of this thread as we have had decent discussion.

I didn’t wanted to act like a grammar nazi and I’m sorry if you felt that. The fact is that I actually can’t understand your post, while I’ve understood every other post in this topic.
I’ve also specified that my english (English if you want) skills are poor, that’s because e(E)nglish isn’t my mother language and I know I’m quite bad at it, but using no punctuation in a quite complex post make reading it a real pain and this kills the discussion at my side. I’ve just asked you to use commas to make your posts more readable, don’t feel offended.

Arius.7031:

I was speaking specifically about two treated builds, the common phantasm build and the common shatter build. A phantasm build is not OP at all, a shatter build is OP to a small extent, though it’s cancelled out by other very common builds. The guy was complaining about Phantasms, when Phantasm builds are arguably our weaker builds (though this is not the case every time).

The point I’m trying to make is that he’s complaining about something that isn’t overpowered to begin with… Phantasms die really quick, Phantasms do only decent damage, they’re on 6-12 second cooldowns, they’re not OP in the slightest. I don’t want people assuming that something is OP because they’ve been killed by it. If someone wants to bring me decent evidence suggesting that Phantasms are completely OP, and that Mesmers are simple and that all you have to do is spam phantasms like sorrow suggests, I’m open to it. Until then, I can tell you, as a Mesmer who has tried many builds, Phantasms are generally speaking not OP.

You don’t get the point. I’m not complaining about Phantasms in general, I’m complaining about Phantasms having an incredibly low cooldown (no more actually, ArenaNet agreed with me) that they can be easily spammable. It doesn’t really matter that Phantasms die quickly if you can recast them in few seconds.

Arius.7031:

Kisses.1054:

Arius.7031:

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.
1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

Again, sorrow, Phantasm is not the strength of the supposedly OP Mesmers. If you’re fight a build that has decent Phantasms, he is not a Shatter build, and Shatter builds are generally the ones that get called OP. Phantasms are actually really easy to kill, and Phantasms themselves are not enough to make Mesmer OP in the slightest. A Phantasmal Duelist in PvP (our hardest hitter) will hit for what? 1.5k? How is that OP? A Shatter build Mesmer can get 3 clones out, and shatter each one for 2-3k depending on the person if he crits on each (usually does). So again, you’re attacking a build that is not very OP at all, when the more OP build is almost polar opposite of the build you think is OP.

1. Fair enough, but what is your problems with clones then?
2. How does one “spam” clones? At any given time one has 1 Clone summoning ability (usually on a 6-12 second cooldown) and 1 Phantasm summoning ability (for each weapon set). The only build that can spam clones is one that has specifically taken away from their combat abilities and added the ability to roll to generate a clone.
3. I was suggesting you level to 80 then PvP. A lot of people are rolling Mesmers since word got out that we’re the secret uber ownage guys, and a lot of new forum posts are complaining about how difficult it is to be a Mesmer.
4. The micromanagement with Mesmers comes from managing Illusions and Phantasms. We have to be careful to try not to shatter Phantasms, we have to make sure that all of our Illusions are up when we decide to shatter, and we have to decide which shatter we’re going to use (generally Mind Wrack is used, but it’s not as good in some cases). All of this as well as managing normal attack skills that every other class has makes management a pain at times.

So in the end, I think you’ll best understand what I’m talking about once you’ve rolled an 80 Mesmer. While I’m open to a discussion about how OP we are, I think it best if we save that discussion for when you’re extremely experienced with our class in PvP.

Though, I’ll go right out and say it, a certain build of Mesmer is OP to 90% of the classes it fights. However, it is countered by Engineers who are really tough (don’t know what the build is called), Guardians, and Warriors.

“1.5k”?
lmao

“2-3k per clone”
Er, that adds up to 8-12k in one hit.

How can I give anything you say any credit if you say stuff like this?

I have no clue what you’re even trying to say. You do realize I specifically stated that 2-3k per clone came from shattering, whereas 1.5k was phantasm damage, right? Or am I simply misunderstanding you? In fact, most shatter builds only have the ability to shatter 3 clones, we can take a trait that gives the shatter effect to our character as well, but a lot of shatter builds don’t — it makes you the squishiest thing in existence.

I specifically said Shatter builds can be considered OP, though they’re easily dealt with by tanky builds. Warriors and thieves can both match that damage, and any tank build can negate a huge part of it… so yeah, it’s not exactly “ruining PvP”, especially when you consider the guy was saying Phantasms were the OP ones, which they aren’t but the devs nerfed them anyway so now they suck.

I was saying they hit a lot harder than 1.5k. I have no idea where you’re getting that from. I know, I have played the phantasm spec and it is stupid, brainless high damage. Sorry for the shatter thing, I thought you were trying to say that this damage also is “fine” etc when you actually do agree it is ridiculous high burst.

Yes mesmers and thieves are ruining Guild Wars 2. 4 games in a row, the team that had more thieves and mesmers won.

Now i can down either profession 1v1. Or hold out forever with the joke class no damage, necro. But when its 2v2 3v3 or whatever, they always have the upper hand.

In downed state, both have a teleport which is better than targeted interrupts and the joke ele root. The problem with this is that they are always gauranteed more down time. A teleport cannot be stopped but most interrupts can be stopped with stability or stealth. There are those 1/10 chances where they are in small spaces and they tele nowhere but most of every map is pretty open.

Dont even get me started on 2v 2 mesmers . There are just way too many clones to tab through. And they are so mobile its near impossible to left click the right one while keeping the camera on target. 1 mesmer is fine. Any more than 1 is just too much to fight.

TLDR necro needs buffs theif mesmer need nerfs.

mesmers are kitten annoying to fight, I am currently mostly playing mesmer and I am happy to see some nerfs. Surely more will follow, looking forward to it.

thieves got away with a slap on the wrist though. they need some severe nerfs quickly.

Nope. Thieves and Mesmers are not ruining the game.

Poor design is ruining the game.

Many of the problems that make Thief and Mesmer so much of a kitten to play against (- I can’t believe it, I’m now typing out the word kitten, such an addictive fake-cuss) are because of larger issues that are effecting sPvP as a whole. Such as the lack of effective defensive measures on many build routes or the lackluster performance of such measures.

Some aspects, such as horrendous burst damage, would be completely fixed if Toughness spike scaled against damage intensity or if there was such a stat as “Critical Defense.”

More importantly, or perhaps it is accurate to say Most Importantly the core of the unbalance between classes truely lies within the limitations of the equipment system used in PvP. Amulets/Jewels are not cutting it, and are the entire reason why Bunker and Burst builds are the most popular.

If the amulets and gems were split into the full accessory bar instead of just one slot, and the equipment were broken down into more modular increments, a far wiser approach on how to adjust abilities based on this availability would be able to be made.

Right now, the amulets available appeal to very specific builds that are not accessible to all professions to the same effect.

@panh

You asked me about drawbacks that ive experienced in structured pvp mesmer play…

I have to say the main drawback is that the class is squishy squishy and once the meta game matures and people learn how to play against mesmers things are going to be much tougher. right now people get fooled by clones some of the time and I dont expect that will last. Also people will learn to deal with stealth too.

lets see drawbacks… well the mesmer is really not a forgiving class at all. it takes really excelent control of your mesmer ie really good w-a-s-d ect ect positioning awareness to make it work. no margin for error because being half a second late on a stun break will mean you die every time.

I also mentioned that as far as burst damage goes I just dont see it on my sword/sword/greatsword dueling build. Its more about consistent damage and evasiveness to wear down the enemy and exploit their weaker gaming skills with my superior character control…

pinkbunnies.4620:

@panh

You asked me about drawbacks that ive experienced in structured pvp mesmer play…

I have to say the main drawback is that the class is squishy squishy and once the meta game matures and people learn how to play against mesmers things are going to be much tougher. right now people get fooled by clones some of the time and I dont expect that will last. Also people will learn to deal with stealth too.

lets see drawbacks… well the mesmer is really not a forgiving class at all. it takes really excelent control of your mesmer ie really good w-a-s-d ect ect positioning awareness to make it work. no margin for error because being half a second late on a stun break will mean you die every time.

I also mentioned that as far as burst damage goes I just dont see it on my sword/sword/greatsword dueling build. Its more about consistent damage and evasiveness to wear down the enemy and exploit their weaker gaming skills with my superior character control…

Pretty much this. A lot of what I do is Auto attack on GS or Sword while keeping the enemy disorientated/CCed. Phantasms are usually brought up to compliment apply their secondaries. (Stacking Bleeds through Sharper Images on iDuelist, crippling through. And I’ll shatter them without a second thought if I think the advantage is good enough or I’m not confident in their ability to survive until their next rotation.

Berserker right now stands as the most useful among them because their summoning results in a quick AoE damage as well as a mass-cripple, but shooting it into an enemy team usually means I have to immediately shatter it after it’s attack as it absolutely will not survive, and I’m primarily using it as a harass tactic.

Duelist’s secondary is to provide a counter against heavy ranged opponents. The volly forces them into a dodge and defensive posture, which then I can follow up with a berserker and begin to pursue.

Kisses.1054:

I was saying they hit a lot harder than 1.5k. I have no idea where you’re getting that from. I know, I have played the phantasm spec and it is stupid, brainless high damage. Sorry for the shatter thing, I thought you were trying to say that this damage also is “fine” etc when you actually do agree it is ridiculous high burst.

The burst damage on it is not as high as what a Thief or a Warrior is capable of, and is easily countered by high defense builds. So while it is a little OP, it’s not even remotely close to being a huge issue and it’s still up for debate.

Just for you, I logged into SPvP and did a absolute maximum Phantasm damage build. It sucks horribly in PvP, for the record, because your character sucks in spite of the fact that the phantasms are decent. Any half-brained PvPer will recognize once the Phantasms hit that he needs to kill them… leaving you ridiculously outmatched.

A berserker hitting with a crit on maximum DPS build does 3k almost exactly on another Mesmer, now, how about on a relatively normal build that doesn’t sacrifice everything else for the sake of Phantasms? You will lose at least 15% damage flat from the Phantasm, if you’re smart you’ll exchange 15% damage for 20% Mind Wrack damage, and you’ll probably also lose Fury decreasing your critical hit rate. You may even decide to invest in something that isn’t glass cannon, but we’ll just avoid that thought.

So, as you can see, my number was clearly undercut, but not by a huge amount. I’ll have to test the Phantasmal Duelist, which is admittedly stronger, but I think you get my point. Sacrificing everything you can make a Phantasm strong, however, Phantasms are still quite easily destroyed and you’re left being very unable to handle an opponent 1 on 1. So basically, this build works against idiots and people who can’t do decent burst. It’s a sub par PvP build, especially when you consider they just made the cooldowns absolutely ridiculous, making an already hard to PvE class even more hard… ugh, bad day.

What’s the rule for stealth in this kitten game, can thieves not get knocked out of it by taking damage?

“What’s the rule for stealth in this kitten game, can thieves not get knocked out of it by taking damage?”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth

Thanks. Why are they allowed to stealth stomp and necros aren’t allowed to use death shroud to revive or down players, that just seems unfair. Especially, bc we don’t have any stability except that one trait that give it to us in DS.

Arius.7031:

Kisses.1054:

I was saying they hit a lot harder than 1.5k. I have no idea where you’re getting that from. I know, I have played the phantasm spec and it is stupid, brainless high damage. Sorry for the shatter thing, I thought you were trying to say that this damage also is “fine” etc when you actually do agree it is ridiculous high burst.

The burst damage on it is not as high as what a Thief or a Warrior is capable of, and is easily countered by high defense builds. So while it is a little OP, it’s not even remotely close to being a huge issue and it’s still up for debate.

Just for you, I logged into SPvP and did a absolute maximum Phantasm damage build. It sucks horribly in PvP, for the record, because your character sucks in spite of the fact that the phantasms are decent. Any half-brained PvPer will recognize once the Phantasms hit that he needs to kill them… leaving you ridiculously outmatched.

A berserker hitting with a crit on maximum DPS build does 3k almost exactly on another Mesmer, now, how about on a relatively normal build that doesn’t sacrifice everything else for the sake of Phantasms? You will lose at least 15% damage flat from the Phantasm, if you’re smart you’ll exchange 15% damage for 20% Mind Wrack damage, and you’ll probably also lose Fury decreasing your critical hit rate. You may even decide to invest in something that isn’t glass cannon, but we’ll just avoid that thought.

So, as you can see, my number was clearly undercut, but not by a huge amount. I’ll have to test the Phantasmal Duelist, which is admittedly stronger, but I think you get my point. Sacrificing everything you can make a Phantasm strong, however, Phantasms are still quite easily destroyed and you’re left being very unable to handle an opponent 1 on 1. So basically, this build works against idiots and people who can’t do decent burst. It’s a sub par PvP build, especially when you consider they just made the cooldowns absolutely ridiculous, making an already hard to PvE class even more hard… ugh, bad day.

uh, I played this build. If you’re not facerolling with it, you’re doing something wrong.

yes. kitten classes are broken

http://i45.tinypic.com/34s0br7.jpg

does that look fun to fight?

Epicninja.8429:

yes. kitten classes are broken

http://i45.tinypic.com/34s0br7.jpg

does that look fun to fight?

Psh F that I’ll take my chances.

Thieves are fine, for the most part. Seriously. Backstab thieves are a little strong but I think that’s just because they’re new and the community has yet to adapt to learn how to play against them. A buddy of mine runs a backstab thief, so I’ve gotten pretty used to it at this point.

The only truly OP class in the game right now is a Shatter Mesmer with Portal and Moa Morph. Insane burst, insane survivability, insane (group!) mobility with portal, insane control with Moa, can win any 1v1 with ease and breeze through 2v1s consistently. I’ve won a total of 4 straight-up 2v1s (in tournaments – I don’t really count 2v1s in public games because… well, public games) on my Engineer – no treb shots, assists, no buffs or anything from allies, just me versus two dudes. I’ve played my Engineer for about 70% of my playing time. About 15% of my playing time has been on mesmer, and I’ve won 4 2v1s on my mesmer as well. Because shatter mesmers are a complete joke. You burst one guy with your combo, stomp him from stealth, kill the other guy. Too much trouble?

Moa one of them. GG WP.

Mesmers need a fix.

PS: Phantasm Mesmers are not OP at all, they’re just easier to play than Shatter builds so you see them more often.

REALLY?!
Really you want an answer?

Please, press your B key in a random PvP and there you can see a battleground of 16 players with more than 50% Thief+Mesmer, the rest are Warrior+Necromancer

Where are you Elementalist and Engineer? Really you exist? :O
Oh wait, im the only kitten who play a nerf class compared with the rest (Engineer)

Dabu.1258:

REALLY?!
Really you want an answer?

Please, press your B key in a random PvP and there you can see a battleground of 16 players with more than 50% Thief+Mesmer, the rest are Warrior+Necromancer

Where are you Elementalist and Engineer? Really you exist? :O
Oh wait, im the only kitten who play a nerf class compared with the rest (Engineer)

Engineers are pretty strong, man. Better than Warrior, Necro, or Ele at least. Count your blessings!

I play as Engineer Point Defender, and you know how many Toughness i have? 2,2k
Want to know how many seconds i need to DIE against Thief/Mesmer/Necromancer ?

ONLY 3 SECONDS

I don’t really see the problem…
Just because I can cloak and appear right behind you, stab you in the back (owww) and then do crazy acrobatic things that cut you the kitten up (bleeding). Then roll backwards and come back swinging with some nasty disable poisons (you’re a snail) and drop some fancy caltrops for your feet (you walk funny and your feet ooze liquid) and still be able to call in back up in the end doesn’t make me an unfair class to play against.
A player might decide that going glass cannon on a thief might really be the “best” option, but really as long as someone can get a c.c. on you and burst or keep you frozen there long enough to make you a sitting duck than i believe everything to be ok. I think a lot of this could be avoided if people started to play as a team more and coordinate better through communication. Only then can the diversity of the classes really be utilized to the best of their potential by having real-time Human communication to back up the play.

“I play as Engineer Point Defender, and you know how many Toughness i have? 2,2k
Want to know how many seconds i need to DIE against Thief/Mesmer/Necromancer ?
ONLY 3 SECONDS”

You mean a thief + mesmer + necro, right? Otherwise I am confused since I am pretty sure it is not even mathematically possible to do that kind of damage in 3sec on a necro even in the most optimum case of you just standing there and doing nothing.

Ezekeel.2837:

You mean a thief + mesmer + necro, right? Otherwise I am confused since I am pretty sure it is not even mathematically possible to do that kind of damage in 3sec on a necro even in the most optimum case of you just standing there and doing nothing.

No buddy, i mean 1 by 1, in 1v1. all together can make an INMORTAL team. Just try in Tournament and tell me if you can do anything

So what skills does this necro use that you claim kills you in 3secs. Does he use wells or marks? What kind of weapons does he use? What were the skills that caused the most damage according to the damage statistic?

thiefs needs that stealth… they are way too squishy without it, but mesmers need some fix with moa and survivability

Ele’s and mesmers are just as squishy.

Ezekeel.2837:

So what skills does this necro use that you claim kills you in 3secs. Does he use wells or marks? What kind of weapons does he use? What were the skills that caused the most damage according to the damage statistic?

Full conditions impossible to remove with the Healing Turret + Super Elixir. Is not enough for you?

I am sorry, but a necro killing you in 3secs with condition damage is impossible when the time it takes to stack conditions with staff/scepter/OH dagger + maybe some utility skills already is longer than that.

dude, stop troll me, Necro/Thief/Mesmer are OP in PvP and everyone know it.
the PvP need a hard fix to balance it

the only one game i know with continuously fixes to balance is “LoL”

Dabu.1258:

Ezekeel.2837:

So what skills does this necro use that you claim kills you in 3secs. Does he use wells or marks? What kind of weapons does he use? What were the skills that caused the most damage according to the damage statistic?

Full conditions impossible to remove with the Healing Turret + Super Elixir. Is not enough for you?

Dude, a Necro can stack 15 bleeds max for a little amount of time and, to get that cap, he needs to use all his bleeding skills.
The maximum bleed the Necro can mantain continuosly spamming 1 is 6 bleed around, which isn’t enough to kill someone in 3 seconds.

If you are running full toughness, it’s your fault. Do you know the hardest counter to bleeding? Vitality.
Use Soldier’s Amulet and you’ll see all the Necro opness disappearing.

The problem is easy, i cant make a build with MY OWN stats, i need to put a necklace that Anet want

example: i want Vit + Heal + Tough. I cant do that, because there is not exist.
and please, dont say me to use the “Celestial Amulet”

what’s wrong with you ANet? Is you who play sPvP?

Dabu.1258:

The problem is easy, i cant make a build with MY OWN stats, i need to put a necklace that Anet want

example: i want Vit + Heal + Tough. I cant do that, because there is not exist.
and please, dont say me to use the “Celestial Amulet”

what’s wrong with you ANet? Is you who play sPvP?

So, you want to be the perfect bunker… Full Vitality, full Healing Power and full Toughness.
I can’t imagine how unbalanced this situation would be. I think the amulet system is fine, you can’t have all the kittening defensive attributes, you will be just unkillable…

These two classes are very op, even in WvW, they are worse, either perma stealth + 1 shots, or millions of clones + 1 shots, how these classes made it out of beta is astonishing

Dabu.1258:

The problem is easy, i cant make a build with MY OWN stats, i need to put a necklace that Anet want

example: i want Vit + Heal + Tough. I cant do that, because there is not exist.
and please, dont say me to use the “Celestial Amulet”

what’s wrong with you ANet? Is you who play sPvP?

^wtf lol !
You mean what the hell is wrong with YOU. xD

^ this post is exactly why those amulets and runes are setup by A-net and not the player.