Guild Wars 2

I’m not questioning that there are overpowered builds in PvP (I’m looking at you Eles, Mesmers and Guardians).

However it seems to be that there doesn’t really seem to be any “weak” or “underpowered” professions anymore. Only certain builds.

Rangers and Engineers have repeatedly been referred to as undesirable or underpowered PvP professions but this has changed in the past weeks/months.

In fact I have heard Rangers being referred to as the best 1v1 profession, which came as quite a surprise considering their past reputation.

Engineers too seem to have come into their own and are able to gib people as fast as any glass-cannon or bunker like a boss. While they might not be able to do so to the same extent as their dedicated counterparts they at least have the added flexibility.

So that begs the question, is there still a drastically underpowered profession left or do we just need to reel in the overpowered ones?

I only run Engi in Pvp, and I wouldn’t consider us drastically underpowered. Ran into a few skilled Rangers this weekend in paids that had any doubts about their viability disappear in my eyes. Just some toning down and minor tweaking on some of the more powerful builds of the professions you pointed out would be fine IMO.

I’m starting to wonder if questions like these can even be answered. The game currently revolves around one mode—capture the point. A lot of people are hoping that Anet offers more game options (ctf, deathmatch, etc.). If that happens, the current pecking order may be upended entirely.

Slan.5496:

I’m starting to wonder if questions like these can even be answered. The game currently revolves around one mode—capture the point. A lot of people are hoping that Anet offers more game options (ctf, deathmatch, etc.). If that happens, the current pecking order may be upended entirely.

Warriors. While they may have a strong 100B. They are boring as all hell to play. They need to do some skill redesign and make the class actually fun and feel like you can flow into a situation and not have to BC in and drop a bomb as your only viable option.

I wouldn’t say there are “weak” professions anymore. I think by now everyone has a basic grasp of what a class is capable of, and how to use it more or less effectively.

The problem is that some professions are still pigeonholed in a specific role without any other viable option, and that’s the aspect the devs should work on.

There are no “free kills” professions. I think the balance is pretty decent overall, and even with some professions having strong, strong advantages in Temple, I’ve seen relatively few total cheese comps over the last week.

Some professions are stronger overall than others, but it’s not blatant.

Warrior are the only class I’d consider weak. By that i mean, there’s nothing they really bring to a group that another class doesn’t do better. I’m not saying a warrior can’t be effective just that if a good warrior was to swap to a different class they would be even more effective and bring more to their team.

Engineers are border-line weak. They have some unique abilities that have some great niche uses such as double elixir R and their Crate Drop, but that’s about it. Their nade burst spec is pretty easy to shut-down (just train the engi and/or use a block/invul or dodge/escape when they wrench pull) and thieves do much better on-demand burst and are less one-dimensional.

Necro’s can be weak in some circumstances but extremely strong in others. They also bring some very unique abilities that are extremely powerful (like corrupt boon, epidemic).

Look, engies are seeing use nowadays, but i wonder if part of that is people exploring. I still feel the class needs love.
also, warriors 100b spec is quite powerful but everything else about the class is troublesome.

Every class is viable ( even if it is in only 1 or 2 specs). But not every class is equal. You could pretty much always trade a warrior for a thief, or a mesmer. Sometimes the warrior is the better choice though if you already have those classes and need a roamer.

Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.

Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.

People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;

Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.

Darnis.4056:

Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.

Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.

People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;

Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.

“ppl are now starting to realize mesmer isnt as op” . Mesmer got a nerf dude. He literally isnt as strong as he was.

there are’nt “weak” professions, but there are overpowered professions which make the others appear weak,
for example a warrior fighting a D/D ele would appear weak,
simply because the d/d ele is overpowered

Dee Jay.2460:

I’m not questioning that there are overpowered builds in PvP (I’m looking at you Eles, Mesmers and Guardians).

Missing out Thief. I would say some Engi builds are very strong as well.

Hard to say the burst is just too fast too strong in the game the other mode is super tank mode…. really very little skill based balance play. I would say Eng and Necro are a bit on the weak side overall but can still build to be decent.

daydream.2938:

Darnis.4056:

Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.

Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.

People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;

Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.

“ppl are now starting to realize mesmer isnt as op” . Mesmer got a nerf dude. He literally isnt as strong as he was.

“He literally isnt as strong as he was.”

Doesn’t fight good Mesmers. Let alone a nobody in tPvP who doesn’t even fight anyone “good.”

If you think Mesmers are fine right now then sorry, they’re not. The ability to use the “I messed up” buttons 24/7 in duels, team fight capability with time-warp, map control with portal is too good for this game’s “standards.” And just because you aren’t good with a Mesmer and can’t see how broken Mesmers are, doesn’t mean they aren’t broken.

Delete Portal and Time Warp from tPvP, get the old Moa Back, nerf distortion, they will still be above average.

I would say there are classes that are more often overlooked compared to others, but nothing is specifically so underpowered or weak in some aspect that it actually causes disuse, in sPvP especially.

Nier.2478:

daydream.2938:

Darnis.4056:

Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.

Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.

People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;

Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.

“ppl are now starting to realize mesmer isnt as op” . Mesmer got a nerf dude. He literally isnt as strong as he was.

“He literally isnt as strong as he was.”

Doesn’t fight good Mesmers. Let alone a nobody in tPvP who doesn’t even fight anyone “good.”

If you think Mesmers are fine right now then sorry, they’re not. The ability to use the “I messed up” buttons 24/7 in duels, team fight capability with time-warp, map control with portal is too good for this game’s “standards.” And just because you aren’t good with a Mesmer and can’t see how broken Mesmers are, doesn’t mean they aren’t broken.

Delete Portal and Time Warp from tPvP, get the old Moa Back, nerf distortion, they will still be above average.

Hmmmm yea well this is all I have to say about this…

Nier.2478:

daydream.2938:

Darnis.4056:

Ranger was “UP” for a while or so the QQ on the forum has lead us to believe.

Ranger is now the strongest Roam/Point Assault IMHO
85%Chance to win 1v1 against any class, including mesmer/thief/Guard ? Check.

People are now starting to realize mesmer isn’t OP as it used to be, QQ has shifted towards Ele/Ranger so the tiers look more like this for me personally;

Ele/Ranger/Guard
Mesmer/Thief/Warrior
Necro/Engi

Mesmer/Thief/Warrior seem to be the ~most~ balanced,
Warrior lacks condi removal though, maybe a little bit of a boost here would be nice It’s still afaik as good a roamer as a mesmer/thief.

“ppl are now starting to realize mesmer isnt as op” . Mesmer got a nerf dude. He literally isnt as strong as he was.

“He literally isnt as strong as he was.”

Doesn’t fight good Mesmers. Let alone a nobody in tPvP who doesn’t even fight anyone “good.”

If you think Mesmers are fine right now then sorry, they’re not. The ability to use the “I messed up” buttons 24/7 in duels, team fight capability with time-warp, map control with portal is too good for this game’s “standards.” And just because you aren’t good with a Mesmer and can’t see how broken Mesmers are, doesn’t mean they aren’t broken.

Delete Portal and Time Warp from tPvP, get the old Moa Back, nerf distortion, they will still be above average.

Nerf distortion you say? A skill that we can use ever 45 seconds if we trait. Then we have Blurred Frenzy which is every 10 if we are lucky. These 2 skills are the most reliable evade/block/invuln we have. Thief has how many evades available with no cooldowns thanks to initiative? Rangers have how many depending on the weapon set? D/D ele’s have better mobility than all other classes plus a bunch of blocks/invulns. Warriors/Guardians/Engie’s all have the ability to “block,block,block” again depending on weapons. Necro’s well yeah IDK about them. So nerf our OH S*** button that is available on a relatively long cooldown….. Yeah stop being a jerk.

ALSO Portal is getting shared as stated by the devs so just give up on it being removed.

Having multiple portalers is gonna TOTALLY fix portal amirite?

I might be able to offensive roam more effectively with blink or Null field… so I’d be happy if engi/necro got portal.

I’ve become a big fan of double portal shenanigans so having a more diverse team and still being able to double-portal might be pretty fun.

TOTALLY RIGHT! When they do share it DECREASE THE COOLDOWN FOR MESMERS. 90 Second cooldown on a utility skill I mean c’mon. But it will also be nice to equip skills how I want instead of “Hey Mesmer have portal”. Its just like Really but I like these skills and find them more useful. Not this and that skill.

jportell.2197:

Nerf distortion you say? A skill that we can use ever 45 seconds if we trait. Then we have Blurred Frenzy which is every 10 if we are lucky. These 2 skills are the most reliable evade/block/invuln we have. Thief has how many evades available with no cooldowns thanks to initiative? Rangers have how many depending on the weapon set? D/D ele’s have better mobility than all other classes plus a bunch of blocks/invulns. Warriors/Guardians/Engie’s all have the ability to “block,block,block” again depending on weapons. Necro’s well yeah IDK about them. So nerf our OH S*** button that is available on a relatively long cooldown….. Yeah stop being a jerk.

ALSO Portal is getting shared as stated by the devs so just give up on it being removed.

Blurred frenzy, distortion and perma vigor makes it so that mesmers have one of the best tools for staying alive in the hands of a good player.

Saying they dont have a lot is ridiculous. For christ’s sake, you get a stun break on your staff…

Not saying mesmers need a nerf, cuz they don’t. I’m just aying that denying they get a lot of evades and other such nonsense on their main weapons that most other classes can only dream of.

eles have only 1 invuln and no blocks, thieves that blow their entire initiative load on their shortbow are either kitten or deeja and guardians only block block block during their heal. kitten son, get it together.

Oh yes, Warrior (aka pony trick, one button wonder, etc.) is by far the most weak and most useless class in the game.

1. Cannot bunker.
2. Mediocre dps considering the risk of having to always be in a group of enemies to do damage.
3. Has horrid survivability; no way to survive damage, unless you sonic the hedgehog away out of range and wait for your 1/5 total HP heal to come off cooldown.
4. Has no way to reset a fight, again unless you count blowing all your cooldowns to roadrunner away only to get ranged down “resetting a fight.”
5. Cannot roam due to 2-4.
6. Only viable burst combo is the most predictable and avoidable attack in the game, not to mention it suffers from horrible pathfinding issues (bulls charge).
7. Only 1 viable build
Need i go on?

sPvP/hotjoins necros aren’t doing the best. This is because our niche is slow conditions and anti bunker based builds and with 95% of people playing glass cannons in hotjoins it can really get frustrating playing as the class with what has to be the lowest maneuverability of all classes and very little defense outside of our high health pool.
That said we do have our place in tournament based play so its not all bad… it just gets really frustrating down here at the low levels.

i think there are only weak traits and weak skills every profession have at least 1 good build, but most other traits and skills are often almost useless… they need to adjust them

The only underrepresented professions right now to me appear to be Engineer and Warrior. This is primarily because their only viably competitive builds (100 Nades and 100 Blades) are overshadowed by what the Thief can currently do. The rest of their builds are slightly overshadowed by what others can offer.

There are a lot of professions remaining though that only have one competitive build. All professions need five to six competitive builds, and that’s still a long road ahead. One of the primary issues a lot of the lack luster builds have is a lack of disengage and/or mobility. Which is one of the defining traits of the best builds out there right now.

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

Nerf distortion you say? A skill that we can use ever 45 seconds if we trait. Then we have Blurred Frenzy which is every 10 if we are lucky. These 2 skills are the most reliable evade/block/invuln we have. Thief has how many evades available with no cooldowns thanks to initiative? Rangers have how many depending on the weapon set? D/D ele’s have better mobility than all other classes plus a bunch of blocks/invulns. Warriors/Guardians/Engie’s all have the ability to “block,block,block” again depending on weapons. Necro’s well yeah IDK about them. So nerf our OH S*** button that is available on a relatively long cooldown….. Yeah stop being a jerk.

ALSO Portal is getting shared as stated by the devs so just give up on it being removed.

Blurred frenzy, distortion and perma vigor makes it so that mesmers have one of the best tools for staying alive in the hands of a good player.

Saying they dont have a lot is ridiculous. For christ’s sake, you get a stun break on your staff…

Not saying mesmers need a nerf, cuz they don’t. I’m just aying that denying they get a lot of evades and other such nonsense on their main weapons that most other classes can only dream of.

eles have only 1 invuln and no blocks, thieves that blow their entire initiative load on their shortbow are either kitten or deeja and guardians only block block block during their heal. kitten son, get it together.

Come on ostrich, reading your post it sounds like you have a vendetta against mesmers.. while playing the soft counter d/d(Or are you still running around d/f) ele, you should be able to beat 99% of mesmers hands down.

You seem to have forgotten to mention Ele’s propensity to fullheal while in stability and perma access to protection/swiftness/fury…

Darnis.4056:

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

Nerf distortion you say? A skill that we can use ever 45 seconds if we trait. Then we have Blurred Frenzy which is every 10 if we are lucky. These 2 skills are the most reliable evade/block/invuln we have. Thief has how many evades available with no cooldowns thanks to initiative? Rangers have how many depending on the weapon set? D/D ele’s have better mobility than all other classes plus a bunch of blocks/invulns. Warriors/Guardians/Engie’s all have the ability to “block,block,block” again depending on weapons. Necro’s well yeah IDK about them. So nerf our OH S*** button that is available on a relatively long cooldown….. Yeah stop being a jerk.

ALSO Portal is getting shared as stated by the devs so just give up on it being removed.

Blurred frenzy, distortion and perma vigor makes it so that mesmers have one of the best tools for staying alive in the hands of a good player.

Saying they dont have a lot is ridiculous. For christ’s sake, you get a stun break on your staff…

Not saying mesmers need a nerf, cuz they don’t. I’m just aying that denying they get a lot of evades and other such nonsense on their main weapons that most other classes can only dream of.

eles have only 1 invuln and no blocks, thieves that blow their entire initiative load on their shortbow are either kitten or deeja and guardians only block block block during their heal. kitten son, get it together.

Come on ostrich, reading your post it sounds like you have a vendetta against mesmers.. while playing the soft counter d/d(Or are you still running around d/f) ele, you should be able to beat 99% of mesmers hands down.

You seem to have forgotten to mention Ele’s propensity to fullheal while in stability and perma access to protection/swiftness/fury…

And guess what, Rangers and Ele are the only classes that can match a Mesmer. Play a Warrior against a decent Mesmer, and come back to me. Actually try to get good with a Warrior and tell me if Mesmers and Ele’s are fair.

Oh wait, you can’t apply whatever you learned from Mesmer to a class that takes effort. Sorry I wasted your time. Why am I apologizing though? Cause I’m wasting my time too by dealing with BS from people like you.

Op: ele
Slightly OP: Ranger (traps), bunker guardian (bunker needs to be nerfed)
Fine: Thief (although burst should be reduced and other areas buffed), necro, Mesmer (its on the strong side but its not annoying)
Slightly weak: Engie – its close to being fine
Horribly bad: Warrior

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

Nerf distortion you say? A skill that we can use ever 45 seconds if we trait. Then we have Blurred Frenzy which is every 10 if we are lucky. These 2 skills are the most reliable evade/block/invuln we have. Thief has how many evades available with no cooldowns thanks to initiative? Rangers have how many depending on the weapon set? D/D ele’s have better mobility than all other classes plus a bunch of blocks/invulns. Warriors/Guardians/Engie’s all have the ability to “block,block,block” again depending on weapons. Necro’s well yeah IDK about them. So nerf our OH S*** button that is available on a relatively long cooldown….. Yeah stop being a jerk.

ALSO Portal is getting shared as stated by the devs so just give up on it being removed.

Blurred frenzy, distortion and perma vigor makes it so that mesmers have one of the best tools for staying alive in the hands of a good player.

Saying they dont have a lot is ridiculous. For christ’s sake, you get a stun break on your staff…

Not saying mesmers need a nerf, cuz they don’t. I’m just aying that denying they get a lot of evades and other such nonsense on their main weapons that most other classes can only dream of.

eles have only 1 invuln and no blocks, thieves that blow their entire initiative load on their shortbow are either kitten or deeja and guardians only block block block during their heal. kitten son, get it together.

Phase retreat on a staff isn’t a stun breaker had this conversation before. It moves us but it doesn’t break the stun. Soooooo get it together? Yah I do got it together. And the full up time on vigor only gives us clones to do a shatter every 45 seconds if we want to use the f4. And Blurred frenzy is on a 10 sec cooldown. So again?

again you have the some of the best tools in the game to stay alive in the hands of a good player.

Some of not THE BEST. That goes to Ele then guardians then thieves. And I think trap rangers might be better than mesmers. Please don’t Generalize my class off these 3 skills which are really our only reliable dmg mitigation

Ostricheggs.3742:

again you have the some of the best tools in the game to stay alive in the hands of a good player.

Don’t feed the ‘woe is me’ mesmers pls

Lordrosicky.5813:

Op: ele
Slightly OP: Ranger (traps), bunker guardian (bunker needs to be nerfed)
Fine: Thief (although burst should be reduced and other areas buffed), necro, Mesmer (its on the strong side but its not annoying)
Slightly weak: Engie – its close to being fine
Horribly bad: Warrior

Engies are most likely the class I have the most fun playing. I don’t like 100nades unfortunately (or GC in general) … which leaves me a bit with p/shield or p/p.
Stability and some popular classes access to that buff is a pain though … not to mention, that of all the attrition-speccs engies seem to be oddly weak at handling them themselves, unlike they take very specific steps to do so … steps that really hurst some other aspects. It is an odd predicament imo, but perhaps it was ok if other attrition-classes weren’t so horrible good at dealing with conditions.

I don’t think Warriors are all that bad overall. They’re just pigeonholed and pale a little in comparison to others.

Assuming Elementalists, Guardians and Mesmer are turned down a little then the Warrior would fair much better in comparison without any significant buff.

In PvP a nerf to one class is also always a buff to all others (relatively speaking).

Poxxia.1547:

Engies are most likely the class I have the most fun playing. I don’t like 100nades unfortunately (or GC in general) … which leaves me a bit with p/shield or p/p.
Stability and some popular classes access to that buff is a pain though … not to mention, that of all the attrition-speccs engies seem to be oddly weak at handling them themselves, unlike they take very specific steps to do so … steps that really hurst some other aspects. It is an odd predicament imo, but perhaps it was ok if other attrition-classes weren’t so horrible good at dealing with conditions.

Try switching to power point control (attack or defense) with rifle. I didn’t think I’d be able to survive without my shield but frankly, I’ve been having a blast ever since I switched to tanky cc rifle/kits.

I’m not saying it’s a “great build” or “you’ll feel powerful”—but I honestly have so much fun playing with it I don’t really want to play my (meta, probably better) alts.

I’m going to make the (undoubtedly unpopular) argument that Thief is a pretty kittenty class in sPvP. Their only current effective role is burst, and while they can do it well, it makes the class horrifically predictable, and BORING to play. In any sort of organized play, your survival mechanic is either “Do a ton of damage and escape”, or “Hope someone more threatening than you is targeted, and there isn’t a ton of AoE going off between you and your target”.

There’s little point in playing S/D, S/P, P/D, or P/P. Sword mainhand can work to varying degrees, but its clearly not as powerful as Dagger mainhand. Without stealth, S/P loses access to ALL of a thief’s defensive traits, stealth in general, and has less burst. S/D has all the positional requirements and high Init costs of D/D, without any of the damage – sure, you can use the daze in a coordinated environment, but you’ll often find a nasty backstab followed by HS on a target being FFd works just as well in most situations, and is better generally as well. P/P is useless, and P/D is WAY too slow, predictable, and easily countered for tourney use, not to mention the spec relies on using stealth as much as possible, making it a sub-par choice for conquest play. On top of that, no immunity skill and generally poor defensive abilities outside of stealth make D/D or D/P the very, very clear choice. They’re predictable and pretty easily countered by any player with half a brain, so if you don’t seriously gimp your target on opening, its generally a downhill battle from there, IMO of course.

Let’s also mention that we have 2 utility lines that are generally acknowledged as underpowered – traps and venoms. Both need some serious tweaking to compete with our other utilities.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Poxxia.1547:

Engies are most likely the class I have the most fun playing. I don’t like 100nades unfortunately (or GC in general) … which leaves me a bit with p/shield or p/p.
Stability and some popular classes access to that buff is a pain though … not to mention, that of all the attrition-speccs engies seem to be oddly weak at handling them themselves, unlike they take very specific steps to do so … steps that really hurst some other aspects. It is an odd predicament imo, but perhaps it was ok if other attrition-classes weren’t so horrible good at dealing with conditions.

Try switching to power point control (attack or defense) with rifle. I didn’t think I’d be able to survive without my shield but frankly, I’ve been having a blast ever since I switched to tanky cc rifle/kits.

I’m not saying it’s a “great build” or “you’ll feel powerful”—but I honestly have so much fun playing with it I don’t really want to play my (meta, probably better) alts.

I made a build for that a while ago, but I just couldn’t pack any damage into it. So basically loads of CC/survival but not enough dmg … and in the end not being able to defend myself properly vs condi-builds. Would love to hear your solution to it though.

Ayestes.1273:

The only underrepresented professions right now to me appear to be Engineer and Warrior. This is primarily because their only viably competitive builds (100 Nades and 100 Blades) are overshadowed by what the Thief can currently do. The rest of their builds are slightly overshadowed by what others can offer.

There are a lot of professions remaining though that only have one competitive build. All professions need five to six competitive builds, and that’s still a long road ahead. One of the primary issues a lot of the lack luster builds have is a lack of disengage and/or mobility. Which is one of the defining traits of the best builds out there right now.

^this.

I think you need to define “underpowered” or weak. If that is that a class isn’t playable in PvP – then no – there’s no weak class anymore.

If Underpowered means that other classes are better – then yes, some classes are underpowered.

I personally think the second definition is more suitable so I think Warrior and Engineer are currently underpowered.

If I go through every class and consider every build I see that each class has something unique which makes it special and the best class for the situation.

Now if you take a look at Warrior you’ll see that it can be build as a decent DMG build – but still I’d say the Thief can perform better in pure DMG. As a Thief has higher mobility and a stealth system which will save you from being downed in a lot cases.
The Warrior is behaving OK and I like having one around – but Thief is imho better to have.

Same for Engineer – there are probably more Builds out there so you could say that the Engineer is more versatile. Being more versatile doesn’t bring any values for me atm – so I don’t really see that as a big plus anymore. Being able to spec to a tanky build or a glasscanon build is fine – but I do that off-match where I could also switch classes to get the same effect. If I could be versatile in-match that would be helpful. But currently the Engineer is stuck with his build, too. And having a look at 100Nade Build – Thief can do better – a tank build – guard / ele can do better.

I wished they would try to get the game to less glasscanons (you can’t kill sombody in 3 seconds) because that would also remove the Hyper-Bunker Builds and would lead to longer fights which is more fun to watch.
It would also lead to Warrior and Engineer being more useful – as you don’t have to spec that you cannot be oneshotted by a thief —> more viable builds.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m going to make the (undoubtedly unpopular) argument that Thief is a pretty kittenty class in sPvP. Their only current effective role is burst, and while they can do it well, it makes the class horrifically predictable, and BORING to play. In any sort of organized play, your survival mechanic is either “Do a ton of damage and escape”, or “Hope someone more threatening than you is targeted, and there isn’t a ton of AoE going off between you and your target”.

There’s little point in playing S/D, S/P, P/D, or P/P. Sword mainhand can work to varying degrees, but its clearly not as powerful as Dagger mainhand. Without stealth, S/P loses access to ALL of a thief’s defensive traits, stealth in general, and has less burst. S/D has all the positional requirements and high Init costs of D/D, without any of the damage – sure, you can use the daze in a coordinated environment, but you’ll often find a nasty backstab followed by HS on a target being FFd works just as well in most situations, and is better generally as well. P/P is useless, and P/D is WAY too slow, predictable, and easily countered for tourney use, not to mention the spec relies on using stealth as much as possible, making it a sub-par choice for conquest play. On top of that, no immunity skill and generally poor defensive abilities outside of stealth make D/D or D/P the very, very clear choice. They’re predictable and pretty easily countered by any player with half a brain, so if you don’t seriously gimp your target on opening, its generally a downhill battle from there, IMO of course.

Let’s also mention that we have 2 utility lines that are generally acknowledged as underpowered – traps and venoms. Both need some serious tweaking to compete with our other utilities.

just lol. The only effective role you have may be burst, but good news, you do it extremely well. You have ways to reset fights, you have insane mobility allowing you to get to the top of structures in an instant, despite similar type skills not working like that for other professions and of course you have stealth. 2 useless utility lines you say? Engineer’s turrets and gadgets say hello. Should there be more diversity in builds? Yes, of course, for everyone. But the whole ‘thieves are kitten in PvP’ argument is just lol worthy. You’re pigeonholed, but you’re extremely good at the thing you’re pigeonholed into. Other professions wish they could say the same.

Poxxia.1547:

I made a build for that a while ago, but I just couldn’t pack any damage into it. So basically loads of CC/survival but not enough dmg … and in the end not being able to defend myself properly vs condi-builds. Would love to hear your solution to it though.

My personal solution is to take flamethrower (remove 1 condition/10 seconds with kit refinement) and runes of melandru. If I’m careful to only remove the conditions I really need to remove, it works out. Also have the antidote from med kit if things get really bad.

Low damage, but the high cc makes it super fun. And it’s not too hard to bait people—they attack you, go down to half health, try to disengage to kite/heal, you unload chains of cc on them and kill them. It’s more of a duel point attack/defend build than anything else, although for teamfights you can make yourself useful by chain cc’ing a low-priority target while your teammates target down the high priority targets.

Again, it’s not a super-awesome-change-the-meta build, but I find it fun and effective.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Poxxia.1547:

I made a build for that a while ago, but I just couldn’t pack any damage into it. So basically loads of CC/survival but not enough dmg … and in the end not being able to defend myself properly vs condi-builds. Would love to hear your solution to it though.

My personal solution is to take flamethrower (remove 1 condition/10 seconds with kit refinement) and runes of melandru. If I’m careful to only remove the conditions I really need to remove, it works out. Also have the antidote from med kit if things get really bad.

Low damage, but the high cc makes it super fun. And it’s not too hard to bait people—they attack you, go down to half health, try to disengage to kite/heal, you unload chains of cc on them and kill them. It’s more of a duel point attack/defend build than anything else, although for teamfights you can make yourself useful by chain cc’ing a low-priority target while your teammates target down the high priority targets.

Again, it’s not a super-awesome-change-the-meta build, but I find it fun and effective.

You just solved a puzzle of mine
Kit refinements description is not very clear .. and tbh I was a bit puzzled why I seemed almost immune to conditions in my build … but if both EG and FT removes conditions, then it is a bit more clear. I took kit refinement for EG’s field .. I had no idea that the initial effect on both EG and FT removes conditions. So many things that aren’t very well described.
Another thing: FT’s Fire field seems a bit dodgy when I compare to other fields … usually it is enough, that my projectiles just pass through it, but for some reason Napalm doesn’t always work like that … most of the time my target has to actually stand in it and/or I as well. Long list of bugs, I know .. but it is a fun profession even with them.

Engis are kicking kitten nowdays with some high burst spec they can survive a lot and do huge damage reminds me of d/d eles.

hharry.1967:

Engis are kicking kitten nowdays with some high burst spec they can survive a lot and do huge damage reminds me of d/d eles.

Yes, we do have a spec known as “100nades” that has similar effectiveness to a hundred blades warrior. It’s really not much like a d/d ele.

I’d say overall the classes are pretty well balanced at this point. As for warrior, it needs buffs on all weapon sets other than GS and rifle. Kill shot also need to be toned down.

Choops.3710:

evilapprentice.6379:

I’m going to make the (undoubtedly unpopular) argument that Thief is a pretty kittenty class in sPvP. Their only current effective role is burst, and while they can do it well, it makes the class horrifically predictable, and BORING to play. In any sort of organized play, your survival mechanic is either “Do a ton of damage and escape”, or “Hope someone more threatening than you is targeted, and there isn’t a ton of AoE going off between you and your target”.

There’s little point in playing S/D, S/P, P/D, or P/P. Sword mainhand can work to varying degrees, but its clearly not as powerful as Dagger mainhand. Without stealth, S/P loses access to ALL of a thief’s defensive traits, stealth in general, and has less burst. S/D has all the positional requirements and high Init costs of D/D, without any of the damage – sure, you can use the daze in a coordinated environment, but you’ll often find a nasty backstab followed by HS on a target being FFd works just as well in most situations, and is better generally as well. P/P is useless, and P/D is WAY too slow, predictable, and easily countered for tourney use, not to mention the spec relies on using stealth as much as possible, making it a sub-par choice for conquest play. On top of that, no immunity skill and generally poor defensive abilities outside of stealth make D/D or D/P the very, very clear choice. They’re predictable and pretty easily countered by any player with half a brain, so if you don’t seriously gimp your target on opening, its generally a downhill battle from there, IMO of course.

Let’s also mention that we have 2 utility lines that are generally acknowledged as underpowered – traps and venoms. Both need some serious tweaking to compete with our other utilities.

just lol. The only effective role you have may be burst, but good news, you do it extremely well. You have ways to reset fights, you have insane mobility allowing you to get to the top of structures in an instant, despite similar type skills not working like that for other professions and of course you have stealth. 2 useless utility lines you say? Engineer’s turrets and gadgets say hello. Should there be more diversity in builds? Yes, of course, for everyone. But the whole ‘thieves are kitten in PvP’ argument is just lol worthy. You’re pigeonholed, but you’re extremely good at the thing you’re pigeonholed into. Other professions wish they could say the same.

I freely admitted that thief burst is awesome – doesn’t make the class fun to play, or even well designed however. Everyone wants their class to be good at something, but its extremely boring when nearly every single fight you engage in goes the exact same way. There’s not much variation in “do as much damage as fast as possible, then run away if it isn’t dead.” It also doesn’t excuse how underpowered/poorly designed every other weaponset is compared to dagger mainhand, and how useless a thief becomes the second you take stealth away (seeing as there are 3 weaponset options with no access to stealth, this is a big deal). There’s also something to be said about predictability – play a thief for a few weeks, you’ll learn to predict what they’re next move is with a fair amount of accuracy.

I also never claimed that the thief’s broken utility lines were any more or less important than other classes (you used Engineer in your example), its just a fact – One I’m sure many other classes share. They should all be fixed, I’m just making the case for thief because I know them well enough to know what utilities are worthless via first hand experience.

You define kittenty as “Ineffective”. I define kittenty as “Makes the game boring”. Playing a build that handles nearly every situation identically, using only 1 or 2 of its weaponsets attacks because those are the only ones that are worth using and they’re leagues better than the other poorly designed options (In addition to only 1 or 2 of the possible weaponsets, because the others have glaring design issues), it gets old quick. I’m sure alot of classes would love to pigeonholed into burst…for the first few weeks. Being powerful is fun – playing a binary spec where nearly every fights outcome is determined in 5 seconds using the nigh same exact strategy isn’t (to me at least).

Choops.3710:

Ah ok, I misunderstood what you meant, my apologies. I see your point, and yeah, that does suck. Hopefully more viability can be brought to a variety of profs/trait lines.

It’s cool, just wanted to clarify – I’m not going to try and claim thieves aren’t useful (they certainly are, their burst is insane), its just about not being fun or dynamic in any way.

What kills me is looking at Ranger S/D – it just looks like exactly what I thought thief S/D would be, and more importantly, what Anet made it seem thieves using a sword would be like – tons of evasive moves with extremely low cd (when spec’d for it, which allows it to compare to the init system thieves use), each with some sort of minor flavor – either a positional escape and leap finisher, or poison. Tough, consistent damage without too much burst which requires finesse to properly use. Looking at thief S/D, its kittening pathetic to compare the 2.

Now I wouldn’t expect it to be exactly the same – thieves damage should probably be a bit higher (to compensate for the lower HP, kittentier heals, and lack of immune skills), and have slightly less survivability (mostly already in place due to the already existing lower base HP and kittentier heals), but its baffling to look at a setup that is pretty well balanced between offense and defense (a spec that thief desperately needs to be more dynamic both in PvP and from what i gather, PvE) and fits so well thematically with the way they represented the class being handed to a different class. Seeing Serpent’s Strike and Stalker’s strike work so well when flanking strike is such unadulterated garbage is pretty infuriating.

Its weird to see people talking about Rangers now despite the fact that a couple of us have been running similar builds since like early November I think..

Esp Trap Builds, It surprises me that it took this long for Heavy Tank type Rangers with Traps to catch on…

Or for people to start using our other weapon sets besides Shortbow…