Guild Wars 2

Hello,

probably I dont need to describe the hype that’s been stirred up by the thief changes. But are they really that bad?

For S/D its no question. Flanking strike not triggering LS when out of range is somewhat acceptable (still I dont think it was gamebreakingly OP before), but not triggering due to blinding or blocking is just stupid imho. So the moaning about S/D being ruined has a basis.

As for D/P… The auto attack change is situational. Not being able to hit only the mesmer (triggering condies upon clone death) sucks. But corpse-cleaving is really nice. Or if your enemies are stacked together. Black powder… that sucks, but I mostly used it for stealth. Sure, there are a million situations where this change hurts but its not that bad. I mean a good player either avoided it or used a condi removal skill. Stomping sucks though. A warri or guard can hit you once with downed skill #1, and then use their #2 before blindness is reapplied. But stomping in a group fight wasnt our job to begin with. And when in 1v1 or 2v2 its not that critical.

I by no means am trying to say that we are where we were before patch, but does all the crying really have a basis?

The BP change feels unnecessary.

Anyone who knew anything knew you could still melee the thief from outside the circle , no matter where the thief stood – only bads stood in the circle and kept whiffing.

Yes, it hardcountered 3 out of 8 downstates – thieves do not get access to stability however (which hardcounters 5 out of 8 downstates), and it cost half a standard init bar, so it didn’t feel overwhelming IMO.

Previously, BP could be used strategically as more than just stealth access – now all it’s good for is stealth access. Considering the nerf, the skill should have gained something to compensate – lower Init cost, bigger radius, better damage on the skill, but no, it was simply renders Nigh useless for actually blinding a player.

Alot of the complaints in the last day stemmed from an introduced steal bug which caused it to miss when used with a skill that moved you (HS, LS) – it rendered alot of builds useless, as most builds have 35-50% of their traits dedicated to steal.

D/P is absolutely fine, just dont stomp anymore. S/D is clearly weaker and may just get completely overshadowed by D/P, or maybe I just need to l2p and adapt to changes better. Definitely not effective as i use to be yet (if ever). I haven’t played P/P enough to have an opinion of this set post-buff.

tl;dr: DP is fine
jury is out on S/D, definitely weaker, possibly viable

everything else as always been crap compared to these sets on PvP.

In WvW however, new trap runes + dire gear is absurd at the moment.

I dont mind the changes so far, I was happy with the change to laserous strike but it seems like a pretty terrible skill now for actual combat, (difficult to hit with & costs a lot of initiative for something that misses) unless you are just trying to evade troll which is stupid so idk.

Also I find it funny they buffed a bunch of skills that are completely garbage to start with, so they are still garbage… who would have thought.

BlackPowder honestly is where it should be imo now, it is still useful but not overbearing (which it certainly was b4) atleast if you happened to step in it and obviously it is easy to avoid but still.

Shared venom is the best thing to come out of this update and condi thief is where its at now for thief imo but I am enjoying destroying all the classes stronger than me with pistol whip and even though I get downed and cleaved to death with one click of rapid fire from a ranger so far ive still been winning. Of course it might be different against a competent player…

Cam Ron.4170:

D/P is absolutely fine, just dont stomp anymore. S/D is clearly weaker and may just get completely overshadowed by D/P, or maybe I just need to l2p and adapt to changes better. Definitely not effective as i use to be yet (if ever). I haven’t played P/P enough to have an opinion of this set post-buff.

tl;dr: DP is fine
jury is out on S/D, definitely weaker, possibly viable

everything else as always been crap compared to these sets on PvP.

In WvW however, new trap runes + dire gear is absurd at the moment.

You don’t need to play P/P to understand that the “buff” did nothing to help the set, Anet very helpfully let you know the change would be pointless from the getgo because it’s not based on any of the issues P/P currently has.

D/P is still a functional set, it’s just that BP went from a skill that could be used defensively to a 6 init smoke field for stealth access and the occasional whirling axe.

jkough.7316:

Shared venom is the best thing to come out of this update and condi thief is where its at now for thief imo

No- best thing to come out of this patch for condi?

Trap runes.

2 words:

O

P

evilapprentice.6379:

Cam Ron.4170:

D/P is absolutely fine, just dont stomp anymore. S/D is clearly weaker and may just get completely overshadowed by D/P, or maybe I just need to l2p and adapt to changes better. Definitely not effective as i use to be yet (if ever). I haven’t played P/P enough to have an opinion of this set post-buff.

tl;dr: DP is fine
jury is out on S/D, definitely weaker, possibly viable

everything else as always been crap compared to these sets on PvP.

In WvW however, new trap runes + dire gear is absurd at the moment.

You don’t need to play P/P to understand that the “buff” did nothing to help the set, Anet very helpfully let you know the change would be pointless from the getgo because it’s not based on any of the issues P/P currently has.

D/P is still a functional set, it’s just that BP went from a skill that could be used defensively to a 6 init smoke field for stealth access and the occasional whirling axe.

regarding p/p:
its essentially like a 20% damage increase for the set’ main damage ability. i didn’t pay P/P prebuff so I don’t have a great understanding of the kits inherent problems. I’ll take your word for it until trying it out more.

Regarding DP
Yea, 6 ini is expensive, perhaps they should make it 5. However, even its its only used for stealth, the skill at 6 ini is still more useful than 2/5ths of D/D set’s skills. Also, d/p can still blind just fine with #3. It was way too good at stomping people in its previous state. A non-utility gated only by initiative shouldn’t be that powerful a stomping tool for a class that is so good at getting a single target down, i think the change was warranted, but perhaps they should lower the cost to 5 initiative- itd still be a net nerf

No its fine, thieves are still good, just need to L2P with the changes imo.

steal with HS is still unusable, steal + HS + BP is garanteed to fail 100%

L2P has nothing to do that F1 skill of the class being buggy as hell

considering that most thieves were using trickery, go figure

i don’t think thief nerfs overall were that bad but the fact that other classes got buffed kind of leaves thieves too far behind on top of bugged F1, imo

15 sec stacked revealed debuff (yep it is possible) is silly

why not allow thief steal to disable every single defensive other classes have for 6 sec, just to make it fair eh?

Black Powder in its previous version was directly comparable to Well of Darkness
Let me restate, for emphasis: a weapon skill which costs the amount of initiative that you generate in 6" had almost as good functionality (1" less duration, slightly smaller radius) as a utility skill with a 60" recharge. I mean, be reasonable here, it was an obvious target for a nerf.

Nimrud.5642:

For S/D its no question. Flanking strike not triggering LS when out of range is somewhat acceptable (still I dont think it was gamebreakingly OP before), but not triggering due to blinding or blocking is just stupid imho. So the moaning about S/D being ruined has a basis.

It’s logical though: it’s a chained attack. Every other skill like that in the game doesn’t progress tot he 2nd skill in the chain if the first doesn’t hit. However I agree with you in part: Larcenous Strike wasn’t the real problem in the s/d build. For me, the problem was that, with so many evasions, s/d thieves were impossible to pin down. So you couldn#’t counterpressure them to get them of, they could just back off to regenerate some initiative and keep coming back until you ran out of cooldowns and dodges. So, if it were me, I would have put a higher initiative price on Flanking Strike, and not put any additional restrictions on Larcenous Strike.

manveruppd.7601:

Black Powder in its previous version was directly comparable to Well of Darkness
Let me restate, for emphasis: a weapon skill which costs the amount of initiative that you generate in 6" had almost as good functionality (1" less duration, slightly smaller radius) as a utility skill with a 60" recharge. I mean, be reasonable here, it was an obvious target for a nerf.

Good thing thief and necro have access to such similar traits, skills and weapons, with the same base hp to boot! Otherwise your comparison would be asinine and obviously pointless.

manveruppd.7601:

Black Powder in its previous version was directly comparable to Well of Darkness
Let me restate, for emphasis: a weapon skill which costs the amount of initiative that you generate in 6" had almost as good functionality (1" less duration, slightly smaller radius) as a utility skill with a 60" recharge. I mean, be reasonable here, it was an obvious target for a nerf.

Nimrud.5642:

For S/D its no question. Flanking strike not triggering LS when out of range is somewhat acceptable (still I dont think it was gamebreakingly OP before), but not triggering due to blinding or blocking is just stupid imho. So the moaning about S/D being ruined has a basis.

It’s logical though: it’s a chained attack. Every other skill like that in the game doesn’t progress tot he 2nd skill in the chain if the first doesn’t hit. However I agree with you in part: Larcenous Strike wasn’t the real problem in the s/d build. For me, the problem was that, with so many evasions, s/d thieves were impossible to pin down. So you couldn#’t counterpressure them to get them of, they could just back off to regenerate some initiative and keep coming back until you ran out of cooldowns and dodges. So, if it were me, I would have put a higher initiative price on Flanking Strike, and not put any additional restrictions on Larcenous Strike.

Use your head. It’s logical to put an unblockable skill behind an initiating skill that won’t advance to the 2nd skill if it’s blocked? LOGIC!

Hype.8032:

manveruppd.7601:

Black Powder in its previous version was directly comparable to Well of Darkness
Let me restate, for emphasis: a weapon skill which costs the amount of initiative that you generate in 6" had almost as good functionality (1" less duration, slightly smaller radius) as a utility skill with a 60" recharge. I mean, be reasonable here, it was an obvious target for a nerf.

Nimrud.5642:

For S/D its no question. Flanking strike not triggering LS when out of range is somewhat acceptable (still I dont think it was gamebreakingly OP before), but not triggering due to blinding or blocking is just stupid imho. So the moaning about S/D being ruined has a basis.

It’s logical though: it’s a chained attack. Every other skill like that in the game doesn’t progress tot he 2nd skill in the chain if the first doesn’t hit. However I agree with you in part: Larcenous Strike wasn’t the real problem in the s/d build. For me, the problem was that, with so many evasions, s/d thieves were impossible to pin down. So you couldn#’t counterpressure them to get them of, they could just back off to regenerate some initiative and keep coming back until you ran out of cooldowns and dodges. So, if it were me, I would have put a higher initiative price on Flanking Strike, and not put any additional restrictions on Larcenous Strike.

Use your head. It’s logical to put an unblockable skill behind an initiating skill that won’t advance to the 2nd skill if it’s blocked? LOGIC!

This! ^^

And some more…

Imho thief always needs to have a possibility to win a fight untouched. The thief is a tightrope-walker. All those who say ‘What the hell, do you really expect this game to give you the ability to completely avoid damage while killing some1?’ And actually yes, I do expect that. Why? Because a single stun/daze/immob/etc. can make you go 100% to 0%. Basically there is no room for error, unless your opponent screws up as well. Thief needs active defenses and the ability to completely avoid damage if one has the required skill level. It does not work any other way. We just simply cant soak up damage. If it lands, it kills us.

Look at it like this: on a warri or ele you need to land 3 times the damage to kill them than on a thief. And if you dish that damage out in a too long timespan, even that wont work. So basically many classes are like having 3 ‘lives’ on a thief like in super mario.

If you want a game where every1 should eat some damage in PvP… Double HP pools for all classes, increase vitality/toughness scaling, tune up dmg by 10-15%, decrease healing. (Maybe increase healing for specs who gear for healing power, but soldier/zerker/rabid/etc. specs should heal a lot less imho.)

I have diverted the topic a little, but maybe I was able to provide some food for thought.

Talking about tightrope-walking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX5ioDq1m5I

Its a combination of thief nerfs and other classes being buffed.

vincecontix.1264:

Its a combination of thief nerfs and other classes being buffed.

Yep, this ‘revealed’ thing that engies and rangers got is the icing on the cake.

S/D is just as good as before, only thing that changed is that it isn’t a nobrainer anymore. It actually even got a slight “denerf/buff” with the flanking strike + steal bugfix.

The one that annoys me the most is the black powder nerf. We already had no sustain so now we are basically forced to sit in shortbow while other rangers, engi or necros can burst an entire point.

The thief nerfs wasn’t as bad. But the indirect nerf we got from engineers analyze buff is just plain stupid.

laquito.5269:

S/D is just as good as before, only thing that changed is that it isn’t a nobrainer anymore. It actually even got a slight “denerf/buff” with the flanking strike + steal bugfix.

what? the old combo was steal + Larcenous strike, now you can’t open with that. Steal+ flanking strike is awful, it’s so telegraphed all it does is give the enemy an obvious tell so they can dodge your steal. Better off precasting CnD now and going for daze proc into flanking strike imo. Been having way more success doing this

I’m not ready to say the set is not viable yet, but to say its as good as before is just crazy

The short answer is: No.

Are rangers really that OP since the changes went live? No.

Do people rant and rave when things get changed to their favorite class/build, turning into raging drama queens unnecessarily? Yes.

Thief changes were focussed on pve I think