Guild Wars 2

Arenanet,

Do you guys realize why people play burst thieves at all, and particularly in PVP? Because there are almost no decent builds outside of it. Burst is always necessary in PVP, particularly in this game where everyone has a self-heal. I don’t see why having powerful burst once every 45 seconds is such a big deal. Other classes (Warrior?!) can put out more burst than us, you realize that right?

I’m personally getting extremely frustrated because my Thief is my only level 80. I don’t have a lot of time to play. My main focus is PVE, but I like to jump in and do PVP once in a while. Unfortunately, the age-old accusation is true: You guys are really hurting PVE Thieves while aiming at PVP ones. I think I speak for all PVE Thieves when I say PLEASE STOP IT!

You’ve helped part of the problem, which was Haste. Nerfing it was a good way to go, but you honestly might as well have just removed it as it’s now worthless.

The second part of the problem is that there are weapon sets/spells/utilities that are poorly designed and not cohesive (no offense, that’s just the kitten truth). Pistol/Pistol is poor. Sword/Pistol is now poor, as Pistol Whip is ineffective and just doesn’t feel good to use because of the slow animation, cast time, and self-root. Venoms are extremely lackluster. Sword/Dagger needs some major love, too.

Overall, in groups, we are a low-damage, extraordinarily squishy Warrior. We need something —-anything!!-—to bring to a party besides Shadow Refuge. So we’re ninjas and we have to dodge around and be tricky to survive. I get it. But what’s the payoff? Do we just do all that extra work, planning, and keyboard-piano-playing to look cool? Because it’s not worth it.

Overall, I rolled the Thief because I wanted a new spin on the rogue/assassin class. High damage, low health, high risk, high reward. Instead, what I’m getting is mediocre damage, low health, and a bunch of nerfs. I’ll say it again: People use backstab builds because there is almost no alternative. Not to mention, they’re fun! If people want to give up survivability for more damage, I don’t see the imbalance here. Warriors do the same damage with survivability. Introduce counterplay, don’t just blindly nerf.

I’m going to end up quitting this game if I get too dissatisfied with my Thief. Not a threat, just the truth. I don’t have time or energy to roll another class after putting ~300 hours into this one. Please put some real effort into class balance. Thanks.

-Paw

Mobility Suggestion – Pistol Whip: Remove the evade and root, allowing us to walk throughout the channel. Damage can remain the same. Rooted abilities don’t fit well with the thief playstyle and don’t serve them well in PvP. They would also have more control over the ability if it were instant cast, timing an interrupt with it in addition to being rooted lowers its usefulness.

When considering PvE balance, the evade is only useful on mobs immune to the stun, so it kindof makes no sense. If mobs do take the stun, their auto attack is usually timed for the moment you stop evading anyways, forcing you to take damage when using it. Being mobile will allow thieves to move/dodge while channeling more than the current rooted evade.

Thanks for reading, ANet!

JonathanSharp.7094:

As Allie said, we want to be careful to balance their WvW/PvE potential against their PvP potential, and then inside of PvP, we have to be careful to watch how they perform at high ranks vs. low ranks.

I am a WvW thief and I don’t give a kitten about sPvP.

Others would say they don’t give a kitten about WvW/PvE.

I know Anet is balancing WvW/PvP/PvE for the sake of consistency but it is time to abandon that approach and keep everything seperate.

Then maybe, just maybe, you could say something like this “we make balancing decisions based on the meta” instead of comments like this “we make balancing decisions based on the impact it would have on PvE.”

DanH.5879:

dude, i do not care about your stupid WVW or PvP, i want to be useful in PvE parties ! and not to be kicked like trash, did you guys wonder why all parties want 1-2 guardians, 2-3 warriors, and a mesmer ???
sure eles are ok-ish too 1 in them ..maximum 2.
the rest can eat a carrot i guess…
continuous nerfs every patch for the thief class that also affects pve, this is the way to kill the class where it already doesn’t shine, congratulations

one of the reasons i roll a guardian now :P

p.s. the venom aura ring, and the caltrops/uncatchable appearing on the ground was a great way not to affect pve, basilisk buff apeparing/shadowstep ring etc.

however i think they missed the red/combat ring for Infiltrator’s Strike (sword 2)…
and shortbow 5

Thief is more wanted than even a guardian on the dredge fractal, and on grawl fractal their dagger storm is amazing. Thief is great in PvE — shadow refuge is the best rezzing skill in the game. You can run full damage and projectile destruction, or you can run venom share and chain interrupt bosses.

Thieves are even taken to cof p1 farm runs. I don’t know what you’re talking about when you say thief is weak in PvE. If you are comparing against warriors, everyone in PvE is useless for speed runs compared to a warrior, because warriors do more damage than everyone else, including the thief, while having high base HP and armor to aafford to run berserker gear more safely.

dude, i do not care about your stupid WVW or PvP, i want to be useful in PvE parties ! and not to be kicked like trash, did you guys wonder why all parties want 1-2 guardians, 2-3 warriors, and a mesmer ???

/Second. If there’s ever a balance discussion, and someone mentions “but sPvP. . .” or “but Wvw. . .” then kick that person from the room and continue the discussion. You can balance for those two things, but leave your peanut butter out of my chocolate, I’m allergic and will suffocate. Balance the classes around PvE ONLY, then you can start worrying about whether they are balanced in PvP or WvW.

Ohoni.6057:

/Second. If there’s ever a balance discussion, and someone mentions “but sPvP. . .” or “but Wvw. . .” then kick that person from the room and continue the discussion. You can balance for those two things, but leave your peanut butter out of my chocolate, I’m allergic and will suffocate. Balance the classes around PvE ONLY, then you can start worrying about whether they are balanced in PvP or WvW.

You must be kidding. Balance the classes around PvE? You are posting this in the sPvP section of the forums. Get serious.

Hate to tell you this, but balancing professions in a way that works for sPvP against real intelligence is always a better solution than balancing it against AI mobs if you have to choose only one. They can split skills between PvE/WvW an PvP, but that is probably overly reactionary at this point. It just needs to be tweaked in such a way that thief can be more effective all around, and if it is done right for PvP where it actually matters then you will benefit as a consequence and be able to keep killing AI controlled mobs to your heart’s content.

GL HF, but don’t come back into the sPvP forums posting this kind of nonsense again.

Med.6150:

Mrbig.8019:

let me say it again:

oh dagger post nerf is USELESS

a ranged cripple dealing bad damage for 4 ini is USELESS especially when with the same set + oh pistol you have a spammable, 900 range, istant gap closer dealing very good damage.

C&D can be totally overcame with D/P by using BP + HS combo. Without target requirments.

oh dagge is terrible, it was already inferior to OH pistol regarding utility, withits damage nerf has became completely useless.

Why are you even using the quote button, if you aren’t reading what you are quoting, let alone actually replying to it.

I have been trying to make a point, which is that the current weapon sets* can hardly be adjusted to the desired goals* (mobility not restricted to shortbow, power and condition damage, utility), when there are so few weapon combinations available to the thief and the current offhands already carry suitable effects for the thief’s role.

You might not like the range cripple, but it has its uses (beyond closing a gap yourself, believe it or not). You might not like the stealth, but it’s a stealth on demand (whether BP + HS is better or not really is beside the point here, but to get technical, BP + HS has its own downsides, as you need to make sure to not put your smoke field on an already existing one, it’s more expensive in terms of initiative and it takes 1.25s to complete).

Basically, our offhand weapons are designed well (again, they are not perfect and offhand dagger skills are too expensive as mentioned 3 long posts ago), so that it’s almost impossible to adjust them accordingly.

You either end up with a smoke field that teleports you to your target, a built in shadowstep for C&D (imagine the crying on the forums) or a shadowstep + cripple (Dancing Dagger). Either way, those skills would be way, way too good to carry all that and that’s just in order to make these weapon sets more attractive compared to the short bow in terms of mobility.

The thief just doesn’t have enough weapon skills to carry all that, so that, at the very least, the short bow will probably remain the only viable option for mobility.

Huh?
Adding new weapons doesn’t change that the previous exist.

The only thing really suffering in mobility is the Pistol, one has none, the other requires melee range. Sword doesn’t excel as strongly without a target. HS can get you distance, but not vertical. I don’t see much of a qualm. Just fix what is there.
HS is a fine mobility skill, it doesn’t get vertical but so what, it’s good at horizontal distance which is fine in it’s own right. Improve the access to good Increased Movement Speeds and D/ will Fall in line due to Heartseeker.

You can address thief mobility without ever touching a single off-hand.
-Make both Infiltrators Strike, and Infiltrator’s Signet Ground-targeted.
-Have Body shot warp you back like Phase retreat. Throw a chain skill to restrict it’s kiting like what has been done with Infiltrator Strike.
- Improve the IMS by going over acrobatics, improving Expeditious Dodger, removing Assassin retreat, re-evaluating SOS, etc. Indirectly boosting HS and directly boosting mobility.

Don’t ever need to touch an off-hand.

I think a good way to balance that satisfy’s the various areas (PvE, WvW, sPvP) is to modify damage delivery rather than simple nerfs. I think what they did to Assassin’s Signet, for example, was much better received than the nerf to Dancing Dagger (though arguably warranted).

They could change things like Mug to do part of its damage as a bleed effect, or give it a debuff effect like vulnerability that will result in net equal damage over the next 5 to 10 seconds. This keeps the PvE-ers happy. WvW thieves have absolutely nothing to complain about – way more viable builds there than in sPvP. I think most of the burst damage problems with the thief revolve around Mug (and to a lesser extent, heartseeker for newer players).

ensoriki.5789:

Med.6150:

Mrbig.8019:

let me say it again:

oh dagger post nerf is USELESS

a ranged cripple dealing bad damage for 4 ini is USELESS especially when with the same set + oh pistol you have a spammable, 900 range, istant gap closer dealing very good damage.

C&D can be totally overcame with D/P by using BP + HS combo. Without target requirments.

oh dagge is terrible, it was already inferior to OH pistol regarding utility, withits damage nerf has became completely useless.

Why are you even using the quote button, if you aren’t reading what you are quoting, let alone actually replying to it.

I have been trying to make a point, which is that the current weapon sets* can hardly be adjusted to the desired goals* (mobility not restricted to shortbow, power and condition damage, utility), when there are so few weapon combinations available to the thief and the current offhands already carry suitable effects for the thief’s role.

You might not like the range cripple, but it has its uses (beyond closing a gap yourself, believe it or not). You might not like the stealth, but it’s a stealth on demand (whether BP + HS is better or not really is beside the point here, but to get technical, BP + HS has its own downsides, as you need to make sure to not put your smoke field on an already existing one, it’s more expensive in terms of initiative and it takes 1.25s to complete).

Basically, our offhand weapons are designed well (again, they are not perfect and offhand dagger skills are too expensive as mentioned 3 long posts ago), so that it’s almost impossible to adjust them accordingly.

You either end up with a smoke field that teleports you to your target, a built in shadowstep for C&D (imagine the crying on the forums) or a shadowstep + cripple (Dancing Dagger). Either way, those skills would be way, way too good to carry all that and that’s just in order to make these weapon sets more attractive compared to the short bow in terms of mobility.

The thief just doesn’t have enough weapon skills to carry all that, so that, at the very least, the short bow will probably remain the only viable option for mobility.

Huh?
Adding new weapons doesn’t change that the previous exist.

The only thing really suffering in mobility is the Pistol, one has none, the other requires melee range. Sword doesn’t excel as strongly without a target. HS can get you distance, but not vertical. I don’t see much of a qualm. Just fix what is there.
HS is a fine mobility skill, it doesn’t get vertical but so what, it’s good at horizontal distance which is fine in it’s own right. Improve the access to good Increased Movement Speeds and D/ will Fall in line due to Heartseeker.

You can address thief mobility without ever touching a single off-hand.
-Make both Infiltrators Strike, and Infiltrator’s Signet Ground-targeted.
-Have Body shot warp you back like Phase retreat. Throw a chain skill to restrict it’s kiting like what has been done with Infiltrator Strike.
- Improve the IMS by going over acrobatics, improving Expeditious Dodger, removing Assassin retreat, re-evaluating SOS, etc. Indirectly boosting HS and directly boosting mobility.

Don’t ever need to touch an off-hand.

I agree, especially regarding inf strike, altough it would become HELLYSH to land it (in that case they should buff its damage).

regarding other ones, I’m not so sure.

having inf sig ground targeted would overlap with shadow step, it’s not really needed: a revision would be more appreciated.

Regarding body shot, pre beta thief had a similar skill (retreat shot) which has been already removed and replaced with BP.

moreover, the short bow would still rule supreme due to AoE damage and AoE poison and weakness.

as I said ( and I’m actually kinda sad of it)there’s no way to buff the thief till shortbow is nerfed into the ground.

Inf sig should be changed just for the idea that the game shouldn’t play itself. Not that it hasn’t been helpful, but it shouldn’t. Just a double benefit that it’ll improve signet builds, and increase some diversity by hitting at that “monopoly” that Shadowstep has over most builds. Not that it’ll take over considering the lack of condi removal and how prevalent that is right now.

Hate to tell you this, but balancing professions in a way that works for sPvP against real intelligence is always a better solution than balancing it against AI mobs if you have to choose only one.

Only if PvE content is anything like an sPvP match, which it’s not. You need to survive damage over X amount of time is different, your need to deal damage over X amount of time is different, and fights are more likely to end up 1v1 or 2v1 in sPvP than in PvE where it’s often 5vChamp or 5v5. A class can dominate in sPvP and not be terribly useful in a dungeon, and vice-versa.

So I repeat, they should balance PvE for PvP, the other game types aren’t relevant.

Ohoni.6057:

Hate to tell you this, but balancing professions in a way that works for sPvP against real intelligence is always a better solution than balancing it against AI mobs if you have to choose only one.

Only if PvE content is anything like an sPvP match, which it’s not. You need to survive damage over X amount of time is different, your need to deal damage over X amount of time is different, and fights are more likely to end up 1v1 or 2v1 in sPvP than in PvE where it’s often 5vChamp or 5v5. A class can dominate in sPvP and not be terribly useful in a dungeon, and vice-versa.

So I repeat, they should balance PvE for PvP, the other game types aren’t relevant.

I don’t think that when balancing the Thief, at least from what I’ve read about ANet’s intentions, we need to have a fight between PvE and PvP.

I don’t know anything about PvE in GW2, but I think a glasscannon that has 1 good combo every 40 or so seconds that can instakill many other Players, won’t do too great against a big bossmonster. But that’s exatly what ANet wants to get away from in sPvP as well.

They want to make the sustained Damage more appealing and give the Thief more tools of survivability outsideof Stealth, which is probably exactly what will work better in PvE as well.

Instead of just ranting about whether PvE or PvP is more important and whether we should balance towards PvE and PvP, maybe think for a second if both Aspects of the game wouldn’t benefit from the same balance-changes?

Besides, it’s actually quite easy to balance PvP vs PvE if you’re smart about it. It’s easy to identify popular Builds in PvP and then apply a nerf at either a Point where it won’t hurt PvE as much, or you’ll just split 1 skill between PvP and PvE.

Most of the problem is that there’s very little utility in GW2. Everything is just DPS. So when someone does more DPS than you do, there’s no longer any point to using your own way of dealing DPS. Same with builds. Why use one build over another when they’re all just roads to DPS? Just use the one that deals the most.

Skills and overall design just needs to be less obsessed with numbers. Skills need to actively DO things, and those things need to matter far more than the amount of damage they’re dealing.

Suggestion: make boon hate scale with condition damage and rework sword main hand into a condition weapon.

I don’t think that when balancing the Thief, at least from what I’ve read about ANet’s intentions, we need to have a fight between PvE and PvP.

Well, two factors. If they ever think to themselves “well, we could make this change, but Thieves are already good at doing [this and that] in a PvP/WvW setting,” then we have a problem.

Second, they’re talking about giving Thieves “boon punishing” abilities. Boon punishing is fairly pointless in PvE, it can come in handy in certain situations, but not useful enough to care about. If this new “boon punishing” tool involves counterbalancing nerfs to existing options, or a reduced interest in buffing up other areas that could use it, then again, we have a problem.

So long as PvE balance doesn’t suffer for the sake of PvP, I’m fine with it, but I am concerned.

Aveneo.2068:

Alright, let’s give Warriors and Thieves ‘Boon Hate’. Then give Engineers and Rangers ‘Stealth Hate’ (the ability to see stealthed opponents).

There, now there’s a hard counter for everything.

As a diehard thief, I support the idea of stealth hate. Makes us try more. But we need alternative mobility and the aforementioned boon hate to compensate for this counterplay.

A thief without stealth is not worth to play. Even with the insane mobility from shortbow.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

A thief without stealth is not worth to play. Even with the insane mobility from shortbow.

I don’t think so, here’s my Post from the last Page (that probably got overlooked because a new Page started right after finishing the Post)….

PowerBottom.5796:

Today, I’ve again played and tested a few interesting Thief-Builds and it’s really amazing how fun to play a Thief can be if it’s not just a Glass-Cannon that abuses invis. ^^’

Maybe here the build to give you some context of what I’m gonna talk about:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-cF3V;1Vwk0-Q5wOFd0;9;4EE-T94;02;31272;0LoW4;2KJG4KJG44Js

The build is supposed to be a balanced roamer with good sustain, CC and decent DPS and the Builds works pretty well, but I don’t know if it’s as viable as the current FotM’s…

The key is to spread weakness+Poison and do AoE-DPS with the Shortbow while dodging around and crippling ppl. If you have built up enough pressure in a Teamfight with that, you go in with infiltrators strike and hit the Target with you Autoattack or Flanking Strike. I also really like to dodge right after the teleport; you’ll still hit the immobilize and get 2 ticks of the small caltrops on the target.
If you fight against a harder to kill Enemy with heals and stuff and you have others dealing DPS with you, you can also go in with the teleport, cripple with your dodge and then easily get in for a C&D and a Daze afterwards (you don’t have to dodge, but if no1 else in the team has stuns/Immo/cripple, it’s way easier to land your C&D+Daze).

Now what I’ve noticed playing this build is:

1) It’s way more useful in Teamfights, to a Point where you won’t really kill anything on your own (but you probably won’t die too easy yourself, so it’s a decent defensive roamer at least). But the Poison+Weakness, the AoE of the Shortbow, Dancing Dagger etc. is just sooooo much better in drawn out Teamfights, were you can slowly chip down a guard or another tank. Also, the teleport+[(Dodge)C&DDaze // Flanking Strike // Dodge+Autoattack] all don’t deal that much DMG and the build really only shines when you are assisting another Damage-Dealer.
The build works very well together with a Warrior, Shatter-Mesmer or D/D-Ele though, because you build up good pressure and with Infiltrators Strike, you can pretty much guarantee that the Teammate will land his Stun/Immobilize or whatever, that are often much harder to land than the infiltrators strike, which is pretty much a guaranteed 1 1/4s Immobilize on this build.

2) The Gain from Valk-Amu is way too small, I don’t really think it’s even justified, but I just don’t like Soldier’s Amu. A better Assassins Reward a more reliable Slowed Pulse and/or Pain-Response would IMHO be a good Option to consider when balancing this.

3) C&D is reaaaally expensive, almost to a point where I don’t use it, inspite the Fact that I LOOOOVE Tactical Strike. Same goes for basically any other Stealth-1 skill besides Backstab and even backstab is hard to use if you don’t play a Glasscannon. I see how this Problem is hard to balance, because C&D is such a big part of the Glasscannon builds, but you can always buff Tactical Strike and Sneak attack a bit! I really don’t think the Daze needed to be shortened for PvP – 2 seconds would be fine. Either that, or you could make Tactical Strike a bit easier to hit with maybe a short lunge forwards, like on the new “kick” of the Warrior.

4) Conditions are a big Problem for any Thief that doesn’t use Stealth and there are several reasons for it: First of all, many skills/traits that get rid of the really bad conditions are linked to stealth, secondly, if you are stealthed, you cannot be targeted by most condition-spam skills that easily and lastly, if you don’t run a glasscannon and use Valk Amu or even Clerics, your Healthpool is really small.
It’s really a big Problem because I’ve built in a lot of Condition-Removal and against any condition-build, I basically spend all my initiative on Infiltrators Strike and Shadow Return and I still get pwned very easily… ;(
I don’t know if that’s inherently bad; if the build gets better in other Aspects, you can maybe Accept a counter like that, but in the current state, it’s just one other negative Aspect of the Build.

I really love playing this build though, probably the most fun and equally hard to play build I know and even if it isn’t a Top-Tier build, if you play it right and in the right composition, it can be very effective.

I’ve also tried several variations of the build, some with more sustain, some better movement and some with higher DPS and I really start thinking that the build is rather decent!

At least it’s incredibly fun to play!

Try it out – yay!

PowerBottom.5796:

I’ve also tried several variations of the build, some with more sustain, some better movement and some with higher DPS and I really start thinking that the build is rather decent!

At least it’s incredibly fun to play!

Try it out – yay!

Well you can actually play every build you want. You can even run venom-share. But if it comes to competitive play, these builds are not viable enough.
To stealth: Thieves are one of the primary targets (especially in teamfights) due to low dmg-resistance. Imagine a thief without stealth. It’s just a free target. Like an engineer but without supply and elexier.

An engi? You must be mistaking it with a necro…at the start of a fight.

Ohoni.6057:

So long as PvE balance doesn’t suffer for the sake of PvP, I’m fine with it, but I am concerned.

Thief suffers from the same problem in PvP that it suffers from in PvE. It gets exposed faster by other players than by AI.

In the end both communities want the same thing for thief, which is more viable options that don’t force you to play full GC with Zerkers.

What is not relevant is posting about PvE in an sPvP thread. For the purpose of this discussion balance in sPvP (more specifically tPvP even) is the only thing that is relevant.

Scaling boon hate with conditions is an interesting idea that someone already brought up. Could help make some builds that are currently garbage viable and open up a few other amulet choices for thief. Not a bad idea.

Plague.5329:

Most of the problem is that there’s very little utility in GW2. Everything is just DPS. So when someone does more DPS than you do, there’s no longer any point to using your own way of dealing DPS. Same with builds. Why use one build over another when they’re all just roads to DPS? Just use the one that deals the most.

Skills and overall design just needs to be less obsessed with numbers. Skills need to actively DO things, and those things need to matter far more than the amount of damage they’re dealing.

This is the ultimate problem with this game right here. There simply isn’t any real utility in this game. This is why I feel making boon hate a dispel instead of a passive damage increase is the best option. Even if the class itself isn’t viable, it will still be brought along for its utility. And it’s not just boon hate as he mentioned. There needs to be a lot more skills in this game that provide something other than just damage.

Every class has about 50% of their traits and 75% of their skills which are absolutely useless and are never used. Why not add some secondary effects that don’t play into damage, but rather group utility (either offense or defense) to add some real depth to the PvP system this game has?

Sometimes PvP in this game feels more like 3rd person team fortress than a real action RPG/MMO.

Anet aside from mobility buffs and boon hate, you should also consider a Sword offhand weapon set for us thieves, and then no one will doubt our versatility.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Ohoni.6057:

So long as PvE balance doesn’t suffer for the sake of PvP, I’m fine with it, but I am concerned.

Scaling boon hate with conditions is an interesting idea that someone already brought up. Could help make some builds that are currently garbage viable and open up a few other amulet choices for thief. Not a bad idea.

Makes sense. But like the guy above me also mentioned, perhaps it is a good idea to make something to dispel the boons rather then just scale % damage. Or something such as make the enemy’s boons 50% less effective when you apply the “boon hate” thingy (could be maybe a debuff?).

In this way bringing a “boon hate” warrior/thief (please make sure to give this new feature to the unused specs.. and perhaps buff/fix them abit to create build diversity) would make sense, since in the high-end meta most groups are either running with 2 elementalists or 2 guardians… either way two boon-dependent classes.

I’m still confused. One minute I’m overpowered. The next minute I’m nerf dazed.

I hope they’re not going to do something about thieves. We’re the awesome. I’m in your hotjoin, stealing your cookies.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

PowerBottom.5796:

I’ve also tried several variations of the build, some with more sustain, some better movement and some with higher DPS and I really start thinking that the build is rather decent!

At least it’s incredibly fun to play!

Try it out – yay!

Well you can actually play every build you want. You can even run venom-share. But if it comes to competitive play, these builds are not viable enough.
To stealth: Thieves are one of the primary targets (especially in teamfights) due to low dmg-resistance. Imagine a thief without stealth. It’s just a free target. Like an engineer but without supply and elexier.

Did you at least try the build?

I can honestly say that I’ve tried out probably 5+ vastly different builds with each class you almost never see in high-end competetive play and probably half of them would be viable in the right Team-setup. And I didn’t even count the minor adjustments you can make to certain builds, which could easily lead to 100+ tested builds.

I never understand when ppl complain about the lack of build-diversity and you can clearly see by the way they post, that they’ve never tried anything other than the standard-builds.
I’m pretty sure 90% of Players, even ones very high in the QP-Ladder, have no clue about most skills and any builds that aren’t FotM. I’ve spent maybe 500+ hours in front of the Golems researching how certain skills exactly work, reading up on them in the Wiki and coming up with builds in my Mind.

I’m pretty sure that I have a decent understanding of what might and might not work in competetive play, so why not at least give it a try?

This particular Thief-build is IMHO pretty solid and with a little more testing, I’d probably run it in tournaments.

And stuff like that works:

1) I’ve played the now all too common Ele-Tank back when everyone said that Ele is way too bad to be played competetively. This was only weeks after the Release when Theorycrafters like [iQ]Zrave were still trying out stuff.
2) I’ve played a Trap-Ranger when no1 played a Ranger in Paid Tournaments and I literally had to plea for several days until my Team let me test it in Paids – it worked!
3) I’ve played a Sword+Shield / Longbow AoE-Condition Warrior in Paid’s and it’s awesome, despite ppl saying that only 100b was viable (before the Quickness nerf obviously).
4) I’m currently working on a Ranger-build that (ab)uses a certain timing when switching from one bird to another, that will make the F2 hit of the bird come instantly after switching your Pet with a Range of maybe 200, which results in an insta 5k hit every 15 seconds. The timing is absolutely cruel though – I’ve been trying to get it right yesterday for about 3 hours and at the end, I got the right timing at maybe 30% of my tries.

There are still tons of builds available and the mechanics of the game aren’t close to being understood, because I often quite easily find Animations that can be abused, for example in the Thief-build above, were you will hit your immobilize of your teleport instantly when you dodge right after you teleport.

Little things like that can boost a build from good to IMBAAA, so why not try around more?

IMHO, constantly playing one class or even one build is extremely overrated anyways, you learn much more about the game when you try other builds and see what’s possible.

In some cases you’re absolutely right. In the case of the thief I don’t think so.
Everything a thief can do, another class can do it better (e.g. condition, teamsupport, AoE-dmg, cc, survivability) The only thing that no other class can do, is this rapid burst from hide.
But that is just my opinion on it. No need to feel attacked by my words.
Inventors are still necessary, in every aspect. So keep it up.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

In some cases you’re absolutely right. In the case of the thief I don’t think so.
Everything a thief can do, another class can do it better (e.g. condition, teamsupport, AoE-dmg, cc, survivability) The only thing that no other class can do, is this rapid burst from hide.
But that is just my opinion on it. No need to feel attacked by my words.
Inventors are still necessary, in every aspect. So keep it up.

I think this Thief-build fits a certain niche very well, especially in the current metagame:

- No other class has such an easy time spreading Poison+Weakness, two of the key-Elements of bringing down Tanks, especially the Ele-tank, if you don’t wanna rely on spiking him down with a Backstabber and a Mesmer (which can work, but it’s still risky)
- The Mobility of this build is ridiculous, especially thanks to the Shadow-Trap – it’s basically a Portal-light.
- In Terms of a Balanced-build, the ratio of sustain and DMG is pretty good, comparable with a valk-amu Ele.
- No other class has such an easy time landing a pretty much guaranteed Immobilize for 1 second – you cannot dodge it if you don’t blindly anticipate the Teleport, which is probably 80% luck-based.
- Almost no other build (I have an Ele-build with Glyph of Elemental Power that has single-target perma-Crippling) has such an easy time to control Movement with tons of AoE-Crippling-Effects.

So yeah, In Teamfights, this build rocks, in 1v1 or 1v2 against non Condition-spammers it can at least buy time (so you can actually hold the node you are defending with your trap, sometimes even like 30 seconds against two opponents) and 1v1’s against Glass-Cannon Thiefs, and Shatter-Mesmers, I win pretty easily actually.

Plague.5329:

Most of the problem is that there’s very little utility in GW2. Everything is just DPS. So when someone does more DPS than you do, there’s no longer any point to using your own way of dealing DPS. Same with builds. Why use one build over another when they’re all just roads to DPS? Just use the one that deals the most.

Skills and overall design just needs to be less obsessed with numbers. Skills need to actively DO things, and those things need to matter far more than the amount of damage they’re dealing.

There is utility in gw2, quite a bit I would say and skills do “do things”
Look at “Surprise Shot” for instance. Really good utility on that skill.
However it’s not backstab. Obviously there’s protection granting skills, blocks, mist form, Elixer U and all that jazz.
There is a lot of % modifiers in this game which generate more interest in straight damage, or going into conditions and not giving a kitten about Protection.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

In some cases you’re absolutely right. In the case of the thief I don’t think so.
Everything a thief can do, another class can do it better (e.g. condition, teamsupport, AoE-dmg, cc, survivability) The only thing that no other class can do, is this rapid burst from hide.
But that is just my opinion on it. No need to feel attacked by my words.
Inventors are still necessary, in every aspect. So keep it up.

Post nerf, thief has the best burst in the game. Maybe tied with mesmer but I think mesmer is technically a slower burst by a few seconds.

I play burst in spvp but not so much in wvw.

In spvp it’s easier to escape using shortbow but in wvw the terrain doesn’t allow for easy escapes. You need defense and mobility.

I feel like the only appropriate build now for wvw is d/p and spvp is burst. Anything is is just kind of average or too awkward to play since nerf.

PowerBottom.5796:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

In some cases you’re absolutely right. In the case of the thief I don’t think so.
Everything a thief can do, another class can do it better (e.g. condition, teamsupport, AoE-dmg, cc, survivability) The only thing that no other class can do, is this rapid burst from hide.
But that is just my opinion on it. No need to feel attacked by my words.
Inventors are still necessary, in every aspect. So keep it up.

I think this Thief-build fits a certain niche very well, especially in the current metagame:

- No other class has such an easy time spreading Poison+Weakness, two of the key-Elements of bringing down Tanks, especially the Ele-tank, if you don’t wanna rely on spiking him down with a Backstabber and a Mesmer (which can work, but it’s still risky)
- The Mobility of this build is ridiculous, especially thanks to the Shadow-Trap – it’s basically a Portal-light.
- In Terms of a Balanced-build, the ratio of sustain and DMG is pretty good, comparable with a valk-amu Ele.
- No other class has such an easy time landing a pretty much guaranteed Immobilize for 1 second – you cannot dodge it if you don’t blindly anticipate the Teleport, which is probably 80% luck-based.
- Almost no other build (I have an Ele-build with Glyph of Elemental Power that has single-target perma-Crippling) has such an easy time to control Movement with tons of AoE-Crippling-Effects.

So yeah, In Teamfights, this build rocks, in 1v1 or 1v2 against non Condition-spammers it can at least buy time (so you can actually hold the node you are defending with your trap, sometimes even like 30 seconds against two opponents) and 1v1’s against Glass-Cannon Thiefs, and Shatter-Mesmers, I win pretty easily actually.

You can spread AoE poison + weakness even with the standard burst build. Even more since you deal more damage when your opponent has a condition on, and even more since you have 15 ini due to Preparedness.

Moreover you bring instant interrupts thanks to Head Shot and and AoE blinding field thanks to Black Powder.

While you lose some ranged control ( very expansive and abokittenely not worth it, or rather dancing dagger), you gain burst and interrupts.

The sustain damage ratio in your build is absolutely not comparable, a thief needs to CRIT otherwise thief damage is pitiful when related to its team utility/survivabiity ( unlike valky ele).

I’ve played LOTS of thief builds, overall the problem is that is simply no sinergy at all in traits in order to make a good, competitive build ( for conquests) for the thief.

There was a very good build relying on CCs and costant daze-pressure, back in november pre-nerf hammer, that was not only comparable to the burst build, but even superior.

The S/D build could completely shut down any foe ( and with flanking strike stripping boons, it would not even be countered by stability) and could compete against any class, any shape or form, with great sustain damage and great CCs.

It was actually the only build worth playing, aside burst, and in fact, in WvW ( where those nerfs are not valid) it is still dominating ( S/D thieves in WvW are by far scarier and stronger).

You can make all the builds you want, there’s no thing a thief can do that an other class can’t do better, or that you couldn’t do with the comon burst build.

Worth playing? S/D pre-nerf was stronger than current burst. It’s pretty much still stronger than D/ in WvW especially post-culling, with the exception that WvW allows simply obscene stats like 112% crit damage, which can make D/ burst more outrageous. Though the quickness nerf poked at S/D, it still is a naturally hard hitting set and would’ve been even more monstrous in it’s current state if DD and CnD hadn’t been nerfed.

Well you are right in that some builds/classes are more effective than others at differing times this has always been the way in mmo’s – AOE often becoming the winner here. Personally I enjoy the thief and think there are fun variations on playing it. I don’t need to be spamming out large numbers in damage and at the moment I feel slightly kitten with S/P but I like a challenge always winning easy is no fun.

ensoriki.5789:

Plague.5329:

Most of the problem is that there’s very little utility in GW2. Everything is just DPS. So when someone does more DPS than you do, there’s no longer any point to using your own way of dealing DPS. Same with builds. Why use one build over another when they’re all just roads to DPS? Just use the one that deals the most.

Skills and overall design just needs to be less obsessed with numbers. Skills need to actively DO things, and those things need to matter far more than the amount of damage they’re dealing.

There is utility in gw2, quite a bit I would say and skills do “do things”
Look at “Surprise Shot” for instance. Really good utility on that skill.
However it’s not backstab. Obviously there’s protection granting skills, blocks, mist form, Elixer U and all that jazz.
There is a lot of % modifiers in this game which generate more interest in straight damage, or going into conditions and not giving a kitten about Protection.

The Focus on raw Power or raw Survival in the current Meta is IMHO not only due to the lack of good support and utility-skills, but also a sign of a pretty unrefined Metagame.

Yeah, the Weakness, the Poison (that doesn’t do great dmg because it’s a Power- not a Condition-build), the Crippling, the short but very reliable and frequent Immobilizes etc. can easily be overlooked, but in the right Team-Setup, it’s pure Gold.

Take a Condition Hammer / Sword+Shield-Warrior for example, another heavily underused spec.
It has the potential for a 1 Second Stun (Shield bash), followed by a 1-Second Immobilize (Sword 3 + Leg Specialist), followed by a 4 Second-Immobilize (Sword F1) , followed by another second Immobilize (Hammer 3 + Leg Specialist), followed by a 1+ Second Stun (Hammer F1). There are various ways of getting two F1’s in quick succession, be it with Shouts+Inspiring Shouts, Zerker Stance or my favourite – Adrenal Reserves). And with good Adrenalin-gain (again with shouts, zerker-stance or Furious), you can dish this combo (maybe sometimes without shield-bash or Sword or Hammer 3) out every 10-15 seconds. Even without any additional CC on the Utilities, the build has to potential to keep sth. either immobilized or stunned maybe 50% of the time.

But here’s the Problem: There are two timings were the opposing Player can get in a dodge. The first one is easy – the opener: All the Animations to open the combo are quite easy to dodge, only Hammer 3 would be good, but you can’t open with it, because thats the second timing: It’s literally a time-frame of maybe half a second, maybe a quarter if you put everything you can into condition-duration, but it’s possible to dodge after the immobilize and before Hammer F1 Hits. And I’ve tried everything: Standing right on top of the Target, ESC-cancelling or Dodge-Cancelling Animations, I’ve even tried to combo up some Animations and work with ESC or Dodge-Cancelling, I’ve tried the Bolas and Bull’s Charge (even if it did work, I don’t wan’t the combo every 20 or 40 seconds, I want it every 10-15 Seconds), nothing worked, the chain is broken if you use your only halfway reliable opener. So you are stuck with a chain that works if you time it correctly, which isn’t too hard, but it’s useless because every good player will be able to dodge the opener and even if they don’t dodge it sometimes, they still have Defensive CD’s. For such a control-build to work, the combo needs to be nearly impossible to dodge (only through anticipation) and it should have a very low CD, so it actually comes around fast enough, so the opponent runs out of Stunbreakers.

But HEY – The Thief has a pretty much guaranteed 1-sec Immobilize he can fire off at pretty much any time that is even a Teleport, so basically impossible to anticipate!!!!

This means that this 1 meager Utility, on it’s own nothing to big, can actually be essential if you team up with another Spec.

And now tell me how many Teams actually utilize stuff like that? None – the competetive Scene is still an Infant.

If The Last Pride [EvIL] or War Machine [WM] would play this game, every now Top-Team would get completely stomped within weeks of them picking up the Game. xD

swinsk.6410:

<Insert Comment about my build>

I know it’s very kamikaze, but once you practice with it you will understand why it owns.

First, if you own them with the burst and they die, then great. For the next 45s you should have your shortbow out almost exclusively and avoid getting in melee range.

If you fail your burst and let’s say they stun break basilisk, you have to stop bursting immediately and focus on defense. I know it sucks that you just blew all your abilities, but it’s only another 45-30s before they come up.

This build in tPvP from my experience works better there. People don’t expect you to drop them in a second. There are less people on the map which means you aren’t engaged all the time so you should have all your abilities up for a lot of the fights.

This build does not hold points. I literally run from everyone at all times. I only engage when I know I have the element of surprise or I have to engage and kill to avoid death.

I was in tPvP fighting a team call SymH and this warrior was chasing me around. I played it like I didn’t see him. I let him get in steal range, and boom! He dropped so quick it was hilarious.

My point is that builds like this are very good but you need to play very well and very smart.

You cannot just enter a melee fight. You have to be on the outskirts and using your bow. Once you find a target that is hurt or just used a cool down. That’s when you pop all your stuff, steal, and boom!

Every time I kill someone with the combo I have to do /say lol. It has nothing to do with the other people. I am /lol @ how fast they just died.

I have never seen another class with as much burst as a thief.

I just have a hard time imagining why you think this playstyle is a good idea for trying to help your TEAM win in the most effective way possible, which should always be the goal in tPvP.

Even if you “succeed,” you essentially CC yourself for 40 seconds at a time. You might as well be eating rez timers.

As for your last comment, other classes can technically burst for more, but most can’t hope to deliver it as safely or reliably as a thief. You may not be seeing it, but it exists.

Daeqar.8965:

I just have a hard time imagining why you think this playstyle is a good idea for trying to help your TEAM win in the most effective way possible, which should always be the goal in tPvP.

Even if you “succeed,” you essentially CC yourself for 40 seconds at a time. You might as well be eating rez timers.

As for your last comment, other classes can technically burst for more, but most can’t hope to deliver it as safely or reliably as a thief. You may not be seeing it, but it exists.

If I succeed at dropping the guy then my team usually wins the fight for the node. If there are still enemies around I use my short bow to hit them for 1-2k (after ricochet i can hit a target for 4k on 1 arrow) a hit depending on class. My shortbow actually does very good damage. So, I help the team by dropping a target almost instantly and then back off and plucking from range for great damage waiting out my CDs. It’s a complete play style change compared to let’s say a D/P thief. Mentally, you think about the map and nodes and skirmishes completely different to remain effective. D/D is only used for burst and SB is used for sustained dps while waiting for burst to become active.

I didn’t mean to give you the idea I thought thief had “more” burst. I meant to say that thieves have the “quickest” burst. That is why you think it’s more reliable, etc. A thief can do damage on steal, cnd, and then back stab. That combo takes 1-2s. Other classes bursts can definitely do more but take more time to land all thier hits.

Full burst is still viable. It farms noobs in WvW and Glory in sPvP. It is next to get the nerf bat though and that leaves us with the lovely dance around like a complete muppet and do nothing else build. Survive all day long but do… nothing.

Yes that does tend to work in WvW, but so does the endless CnD repeater on the braindead or even having a coffee with one hand while you autoattack on the other hand. Where a thief needs to be viable is against good players in win or lose situations where your actions count… and right now, that is getting a LOT of erosion with each patch.

PowerBottom.5796:

Take a Condition Hammer / Sword+Shield-Warrior for example, another heavily underused spec.
It has the potential for a 1 Second Stun (Shield bash), followed by a 1-Second Immobilize (Sword 3 + Leg Specialist), followed by a 4 Second-Immobilize (Sword F1) , followed by another second Immobilize (Hammer 3 + Leg Specialist), followed by a 1+ Second Stun (Hammer F1). There are various ways of getting two F1’s in quick succession, be it with Shouts+Inspiring Shouts, Zerker Stance or my favourite – Adrenal Reserves). And with good Adrenalin-gain (again with shouts, zerker-stance or Furious), you can dish this combo (maybe sometimes without shield-bash or Sword or Hammer 3) out every 10-15 seconds. Even without any additional CC on the Utilities, the build has to potential to keep sth. either immobilized or stunned maybe 50% of the time.

But here’s the Problem: There are two timings were the opposing Player can get in a dodge. The first one is easy – the opener: All the Animations to open the combo are quite easy to dodge, only Hammer 3 would be good, but you can’t open with it, because thats the second timing: It’s literally a time-frame of maybe half a second, maybe a quarter if you put everything you can into condition-duration, but it’s possible to dodge after the immobilize and before Hammer F1 Hits. And I’ve tried everything: Standing right on top of the Target, ESC-cancelling or Dodge-Cancelling Animations, I’ve even tried to combo up some Animations and work with ESC or Dodge-Cancelling, I’ve tried the Bolas and Bull’s Charge (even if it did work, I don’t wan’t the combo every 20 or 40 seconds, I want it every 10-15 Seconds), nothing worked, the chain is broken if you use your only halfway reliable opener. So you are stuck with a chain that works if you time it correctly, which isn’t too hard, but it’s useless because every good player will be able to dodge the opener and even if they don’t dodge it sometimes, they still have Defensive CD’s. For such a control-build to work, the combo needs to be nearly impossible to dodge (only through anticipation) and it should have a very low CD, so it actually comes around fast enough, so the opponent runs out of Stunbreakers.

HAHAAA; I’m a genius! ^^’

I forgot the Rune with -1 sec on Weapon Swap!

So if I go 30 on Condition-Duration, I can open with Hammer 3, then Sword 3, then Sword F1 and a few autoattacks and I can switch to hammer for F1 right before Immobilize finishes…

Well, the build is a mess though, the Combo works, but you get way less Adrenalin and utilities and stuff if you don’t go 30 into crit, so it’s still better with a Thief for a guaranteed Immobilize.

I’ve realized that those two Builds work together well on many other Aspects:

- The War is Melee-Only, so the cripple/Immo of the Thief allows him to get autoattacks in, which is essential to build up adrenalin.
- The Weakness of the Thief makes it easier for the War to land a few stuns here and there if he doesn’t wan’t to or can’t fire off the whole combo (to build up pressure and make the Enemy use up CD’s for example), because -50 Endurance-Reg permanently definitely has it’s toll.
- The Combo of the War allows the Thief to easily hang on his daze, because he can land C&D + tactical Strike without any problems at the End of the Combo.
- If the War goes for Shouts, the Thief gets much needed Fury and a bit of also much needed Condi-Removal and other Utilities.
- They are both pretty mobile, so great to roam together.

Now I really wanna test those two builds together out!!!! kekekeke!!!!

@Powerbottom

Your arguments are sound and the build does have its perks, the real problem is that you are basically relegating the thief to a support build with sustained damage and control, which, unfortunately, requires other classes to take over roles, that they are not excelling at (I am not ignoring the fact that people are not bold enough to try even) in order to be successful.

People are stuck in their mind set and they are following a certain meta like sheep. Often copied from the more vocal and perhaps successful teams/players, when in reality, success in this game is based on coordination and stalling/overpowering your opponent on a node.

Conquest sucks.

swinsk.6410:

Daeqar.8965:

I just have a hard time imagining why you think this playstyle is a good idea for trying to help your TEAM win in the most effective way possible, which should always be the goal in tPvP.

Even if you “succeed,” you essentially CC yourself for 40 seconds at a time. You might as well be eating rez timers.

As for your last comment, other classes can technically burst for more, but most can’t hope to deliver it as safely or reliably as a thief. You may not be seeing it, but it exists.

If I succeed at dropping the guy then my team usually wins the fight for the node. If there are still enemies around I use my short bow to hit them for 1-2k (after ricochet i can hit a target for 4k on 1 arrow) a hit depending on class. My shortbow actually does very good damage. So, I help the team by dropping a target almost instantly and then back off and plucking from range for great damage waiting out my CDs. It’s a complete play style change compared to let’s say a D/P thief. Mentally, you think about the map and nodes and skirmishes completely different to remain effective. D/D is only used for burst and SB is used for sustained dps while waiting for burst to become active.

I didn’t mean to give you the idea I thought thief had “more” burst. I meant to say that thieves have the “quickest” burst. That is why you think it’s more reliable, etc. A thief can do damage on steal, cnd, and then back stab. That combo takes 1-2s. Other classes bursts can definitely do more but take more time to land all thier hits.

I can go with that strategy at least, although whether it’s entirely competitive with other high-end team strats is debatable. Also, it’s pretty risky as any semi-determined effort to kill you from classes with decent mobility will generally succeed without much trouble because you have so little utility and escapes built in. People are pretty accustomed to chasing down a shortbow thief, and it’s not very hard to do unless they have a deep bag of tricks to go with it. For example, I run a balanced build with high mobility that would be able to chase you down and solo kill you pretty quickly. Your only chance would be having all your cooldowns and hoping to kill me first – which is a real possibility, but so far burst thieves cannot usually accomplish it without help.

My point is just that the build design primarily leads to break-even scenarios against similarly skilled opposition.

I’ve been having a discussion with a zerging noob on another board.

Link: http://www.postcount.net/forum/showthread.php?50189-Patch-Notes-3-26/page3

It seems his biggest problem (why he urges his guild to flood ANet with abusive comments about thieves) is that thieves can escape him whenever they feel like in wvw.

He does not play spvp because he cannot zerg with 100 people.

He said so himself, thieves cannot kill his engineer in wvw, but he cannot kill the thief either. When his buddies come to help kill him, the thief runs away.

He feels the risk:reward is too skewed on a thief and that the thief has all the rewards of all the other classes and none of the risk.

I feel the opposite way after playing with culling nerf and now the 4s nerf.

A thief in wvw can longer fight in the back field of a zerg. He will take too much dps because of the 4s and culling before he has to flee or he might even get downed. Thieves in large scale battles, suck. They can’t go in the middle of people anymore and fight them and not get killed instantly. We can’t hold choke points, we can’t defend keeps or nodes, we can’t use siege well, we really can’t do any wvw missions well except for taking camps/guards/caravans easy. We are roamers in wvw and that is by design.

In small skirmishes the thief does well in wvw.

I think this is the reason thieves are getting nerfed so hard. People like Hep and angryranger from that post. Zerging ignorant noobs who just tell thier 100+ friends in their guild to complain about this class until it becomes free points for them.

Daeqar.8965:

I can go with that strategy at least, although whether it’s entirely competitive with other high-end team strats is debatable. Also, it’s pretty risky as any semi-determined effort to kill you from classes with decent mobility will generally succeed without much trouble because you have so little utility and escapes built in. People are pretty accustomed to chasing down a shortbow thief, and it’s not very hard to do unless they have a deep bag of tricks to go with it. For example, I run a balanced build with high mobility that would be able to chase you down and solo kill you pretty quickly. Your only chance would be having all your cooldowns and hoping to kill me first – which is a real possibility, but so far burst thieves cannot usually accomplish it without help.

My point is just that the build design primarily leads to break-even scenarios against similarly skilled opposition.

I have no idea how the build would do at high level play. Team vs. Team. I don’t have a team to play with. I do solo join or hotjoins.

Thieves are the ones that kill me the most because they can usually follow me pretty easily and I die in like 3 hits from auto-attack. Against a thief I have to burst them down first before they do the same to me. If there is a fight on a node. I usually drop the thief first because I have much better chance of getting away after. If I go for the warrior or ele or something, even if I drop them, the thief will drop me. Let’s say you shadowstep my basi and live through the burst. I will switch to shortbow and immediately go on the defense. Usually the burst did good damage and you aren’t 100% and I hit hard with SB. If I can keep you at bay long enough I can beat you.

To make this build effective it requires a skilled player. This build is not for a new player.

This build does not work in wvw because I can’t use my shortbow to teleport to places you can’t walk too.

I abuse the crap out of the shortbow. Please refer to this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BGAfB64nW4

You can’t do that in wvw so getting away is much harder in wvw.

I find myself thinking about a lot of thief things from a 1 v, solo perspective. It occurred to me just now, again, that a lot of things get a lot easier to land when you’re playing near your team. Yeah, a lot of things they can see coming, but if they’re looking the other way because you’re in a team fight…

It is team PvP, even if it’s hot-join. Combos are a lot easier when you don’t have to provide the field and the finish. Who wants one Combo. That’s why they’re sold by the bag.

Yeah, and I was REALLY bad at running Venom Share until I remembered you had to be with your team for the Share part.

Did I mention I was REALLY bad at details?

WyldKat.4712:

I find myself thinking about a lot of thief things from a 1 v, solo perspective. It occurred to me just now, again, that a lot of things get a lot easier to land when you’re playing near your team. Yeah, a lot of things they can see coming, but if they’re looking the other way because you’re in a team fight…

It is team PvP, even if it’s hot-join. Combos are a lot easier when you don’t have to provide the field and the finish. Who wants one Combo. That’s why they’re sold by the bag.

Yeah, and I was REALLY bad at running Venom Share until I remembered you had to be with your team for the Share part.

Did I mention I was REALLY bad at details?

My build is definitely not a 1vX build. I rely on my team a lot to distract the enemy. I will often use shortbow for a small time in a team battle to basically get a better understand of what class has what abilities up, etc. So that I can make a better choice of which target to burst.

The team plays a big part in this build. If your team sucks and they die on inc every fight you might only kill 1-2 people with this build because the rest of the time is spent running away from multiple opponents.

ensoriki.5789:

Worth playing? S/D pre-nerf was stronger than current burst. It’s pretty much still stronger than D/ in WvW especially post-culling, with the exception that WvW allows simply obscene stats like 112% crit damage, which can make D/ burst more outrageous. Though the quickness nerf poked at S/D, it still is a naturally hard hitting set and would’ve been even more monstrous in it’s current state if DD and CnD hadn’t been nerfed.

In fact i said “not only worth, but even superior”.

In WvW it’s still there, C&D an TS are not nerfed at all ( TS is even buffed, lol).

The point is that we already have a very little, niche role in the meta: as soon as the meta shifts ( or rather, it has already shifted), the thief will become “not optimal” , just like the war was pre-quickness nerf ( altough it had some nice sinergy with time warp).

That’s about it.

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Viability: thief is fine, learn to play the class.
Diversity: having 2 specs (one requiring vastly more experience, skill, and communication/cooperation than the other – thus never being seen) is somewhat stale. However that being said the only class with true build diversity is the guardian.

Complaining about skill issues is pointless. You’re crying because you don’t have haste for your heartseeker spam post burst, requiring you to outplay people instead of face roll. Learn the class, how it plays, and what it’s capable of before whining on forums about quickness as a thief. The quickness nerf didn’t even touch backstab in terms of viability, and reduced pistol whip and unload specs to completely unplayable (not to say they were viable before).

-Caed

“outplay” you say.

You know perfectly you have to ALWAYS outplay any opponent as a thief to win a single 1vs1.

What if you can’t OUTPLAY your opponent ?
What if your opponent is skilled ?

You always assume you can outplay everyone, but in reality you can’t.
Having a point assuming your opponent is a baddie and you can do as you please with him is a bad start.

Anyway, my point is totally different, and i’ll repost, as always.

---

It’s not simply about the thief. Quickness nerf affected burst classes and will soon affect the whole tPvP mentality.
Pre-nerf, it wouldn’t matter how tanky you were, you knew that with a single mistake you could be blowed up by a war/thief or a time warp+war, and had to be careful since a ranger was always there for a quick stomp in order to finish you.
Now bunkers are less punished for their mistakes.
There are no more wars, thieves can’t oneshot 100% anymore and since you can no more follow with a heartsekeer, you’re totally relying on mug-backstab to crit: if one or the other does blank damage, your burst has failed ( with haste you were able to increase dagger hit volume and somehow “standardize” your burst damage without blindly relying to RNG) and rangers can no more quick stomp.
So not only they’re less punished for their mistakes, but they can also be ressed faster ( how many times a quick stomp totally negated a signet of undead/illusion of life and similar ? ).
The meta will soon push into super bunker comps + 1 or 2 high AoE damage proff ( aka 3-4 eles+ guard + random eng/ran/mes/necro), where the comp BY ITSELF counters the thief.
It’s not that hard, really.
_

But as i said before, i was simply too hasty.

We’ll talk again after a week and we’ll see who was right.

That is a scaling issue it has nothing to do with how op thief is my buddy is having no issue with his. I think playing better is a good start or you could start spamming heartseeker like the rest. People always complain about how weak eng and ranger are so I put down my mesmer and picked up a ranger to prove them wrong, Thief is still the most op class in the game if you fail at thief you just fail the end.

Thesilentflute.8761:

Mrbig.8019:

Narcarsis.5739:

Viability: thief is fine, learn to play the class.
Diversity: having 2 specs (one requiring vastly more experience, skill, and communication/cooperation than the other – thus never being seen) is somewhat stale. However that being said the only class with true build diversity is the guardian.

Complaining about skill issues is pointless. You’re crying because you don’t have haste for your heartseeker spam post burst, requiring you to outplay people instead of face roll. Learn the class, how it plays, and what it’s capable of before whining on forums about quickness as a thief. The quickness nerf didn’t even touch backstab in terms of viability, and reduced pistol whip and unload specs to completely unplayable (not to say they were viable before).

-Caed

“outplay” you say.

You know perfectly you have to ALWAYS outplay any opponent as a thief to win a single 1vs1.

What if you can’t OUTPLAY your opponent ?
What if your opponent is skilled ?

You always assume you can outplay everyone, but in reality you can’t.
Having a point assuming your opponent is a baddie and you can do as you please with him is a bad start.

Anyway, my point is totally different, and i’ll repost, as always.

---

It’s not simply about the thief. Quickness nerf affected burst classes and will soon affect the whole tPvP mentality.
Pre-nerf, it wouldn’t matter how tanky you were, you knew that with a single mistake you could be blowed up by a war/thief or a time warp+war, and had to be careful since a ranger was always there for a quick stomp in order to finish you.
Now bunkers are less punished for their mistakes.
There are no more wars, thieves can’t oneshot 100% anymore and since you can no more follow with a heartsekeer, you’re totally relying on mug-backstab to crit: if one or the other does blank damage, your burst has failed ( with haste you were able to increase dagger hit volume and somehow “standardize” your burst damage without blindly relying to RNG) and rangers can no more quick stomp.
So not only they’re less punished for their mistakes, but they can also be ressed faster ( how many times a quick stomp totally negated a signet of undead/illusion of life and similar ? ).
The meta will soon push into super bunker comps + 1 or 2 high AoE damage proff ( aka 3-4 eles+ guard + random eng/ran/mes/necro), where the comp BY ITSELF counters the thief.
It’s not that hard, really.
_

But as i said before, i was simply too hasty.

We’ll talk again after a week and we’ll see who was right.

That is a scaling issue it has nothing to do with how op thief is my buddy is having no issue with his. I think playing better is a good start or you could start spamming heartseeker like the rest. People always complain about how weak eng and ranger are so I put down my mesmer and picked up a ranger to prove them wrong, Thief is still the most op class in the game if you fail at thief you just fail the end.

how weak eng
Thief is still the most op class in the game

eng weak

thief most op class

thief op

eng weak

LOLWOT

Here is my opinion, from the perspective of a long time Warrior player who recently switched to Thiefs seriously:
——-
First, to set some context I’ll post my builds:
Thief (10/30/0/30/0):
-Dagger/Dagger (off set seldom/never used)
-Rune of Lyssa Set
-Valkyrie Amulet with Valkyrie Jewel
-Utilities: Withdraw, Skale Venom, Shadow Refuge, Spider Venom, Basilisk Venom

Warrior (10/30/20/0/10):
-Axe/Mace, Mace/Shield
-Rune of Soldier Set
-Valyrie Amulet with Berserker Jewel
-Utilities: Mending, For Great Justice, Throw Bolas, On my Mark, Battle Standard
——-
Observations:
Survivability
Thiefs are statistically less “tanky”, however it is erroneous to say that they have less survivability. Their survivability in large part comes from them having access to the best heal skill in the game, Withdraw. If traited to gain vigor upon heal, much of a thief’s life is spent in dodge frames, this is their prime defense.

Thiefs have to be constantly moving around and jumping in and out of combat to survive, but they are good at it. If things go south thiefs have many escape utilities, Withdraw, Shadow Refuge, Swiftness on Dodge (to name a few). By contrast Warriors don’t have any reliable escapes.

Both thiefs and warriors die ridiculously fast from condition damage. Especially condition damage from Shortbow Rangers and Necros. While necro condition burst is somewhat justified given their low mobility, shortbow rangers require some revision imo.

Staying on target
Warriors have less mobility, but (ideally) this is made up for by them having more hard CC options (stun, immobilize). However, considering that players have a variety of sources of stability/stun break/block/invulnerability hard CC is not sufficient to stay on target a majority of the time. Thiefs have fewer hard CC options, but have more soft CC (dancing dagger is amazing). In general thiefs have an easier time staying on target as a result of their mobility (especially due to dodge granting swiftness).

imo warriors need shorter cooldowns on certain abilities that cause cripple, or they should get more ways to cause cripple.

Damage
Warrior and thief sustained damage are comparable assuming that the warrior can stay on target (not always the case). However, thief burst damage is better by a wide margin. This is due to the fact that 1.) thiefs have a much wider range of Damage % modifiers from traits (eg: 10% if ninitiative above 6, 10% if target has condition, 10% if endurance is not full, 20% if target is below 50% Health) 2.) initiative mechanic allows them to time their burst accurately 3.) their burst is not reliant on CC. By contrast, Warrior burst is heavily reliant on CC, and as mentioned already CC is not reliable given that there are so many stun breaks/stability/invulnerability/block sources.

All this is not to say that thiefs have inappropriate burst capability, the opposite is correct. They need to be bursty because their burst is closely tied to their survivability. If a thief stays in combat for too long he will die.

imo warrior and thief damage is at a good place right now. However, their damage cannot hold a torch to condition damage and the ridiculous state it is in right now.

Utility
Overall, I would rate warriors as having higher utility. First and most important, warriors can stay and fight at a point for a longer period of time. By contrast, as mentioned already thiefs have to keep on the move. Shadow refuge is better than Battle Standard for ressing because of its much much shorter cooldown, however pulling off a successful res is also more risky. The wider array of hard CC available to warriors allows them to interrupt death blows effectively.

-Thief-

“What’s your is mine”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ZWfFD_w-s&feature=youtu.be