Arenanet's failing ESports ideologies.

Arenanet's failing ESports ideologies.

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

I’d like to raise some concerns about Arenanet’s continual descend into poor decision making in terms of game design/e-sports ambition.

A successful Esports needs two things:
Players, and spectators. The game is actually not as important. Spectators are a straightforward concept, the more, the better. Unfortunately GW2 isn’t a particularly friendly game to spectate, and only now has Anet begun to address this issue. In terms of players there are 3 types. You begin as a player who is uninformed, trying to learn the game, and experiment. With experience you become the average player who knows the ins and outs of the game, with the ability to help the uninformed. Finally, players of this category can make the extra push to be a professional. A professional is often a beacon of inspiration for the average player; creating new ways of thinking for the meta to change and in turn, engage the developers into doing things in new ways. All three echelons of players are important. Professional players help drive the game in different directions and show spectators the amount of depth the game can have. Your average player-base helps translate this depth to the beginners. Which is where the forefront of GW2’s issues lie.

Issue #1: “Lets make GW2 the most inaccessible E-Sport out there”.

Anet have said time and time again they want to make GW2 a proper E-Sport. How well is that turning out isn’t an issue here (but the answer is not very well). The frame work for an esports community to build up just isn’t there. Three years on we still don’t have fundamental features like; saved builds, a working matchmaking system, game history and in game rankings. These aren’t just features that are QoL, these features are crucial. A competitive environment is about having the features in place for people to improve

GW2 features high customisability, which is not unlike other successful esports. Customisability is a good thing. The problem with GW2’s version of customisability is that it exists at the beginning of a PvP match. This is not a good thing for both players and spectators.

If you look at a successful MOBA like DotA 2 or LoL, you’ll see that the game type starts off with the players having very little abilities to use. Gameplay at the very beginning of a match is very mechanics-based. But as the match develops and casualties are suffered, more options are available to players to adapt and change the tide of battle. Most MOBAs involve the purchasing of items in game which essentially allows builds and tactics to change.

Now if we look at GW2 conquest, very little of this is present. Builds are locked in from the get go (which I actually agree with). Once a match gets underway and points are accrued, staging a comeback becomes much more ‘skill’ based rather than tactics based. Even this isn’t the problem, but it does make GW2 more akin to a game like counterstrike rather than a team-oriented, RPG PvP game which it is often presented as. CS works as a spectatored esport because the visuals are so easy to understand. You aim, you shoot, you win. This isn’t the case with GW2. There are hundreds of different spell effects a spectator needs to know, and for a casual spectator, the result is more important than the method. Watching a sinister engineer do a complex rotation to win a point from the opponent is boring, even though it requires great timing and skill. Watching two teams race to kill a guild lord in Stronghold on the other hand can be much more exciting. Skillful prowess in a video game are often much harder to translate visually than tactical prowess.

So not only are we wrestling with a game that is difficult to understand visually, we are also hampered by one of GW2’s most core principles:

Issue #2: “No defined roles, no 7LF Monk”.
First of all, I absolutely applaud Anet for making PvE solo friendly. The removal of the holy trinity was a very good thing. For PvE. But for PvP it falls flat on its face. I’m not saying we should have healers and tanks in PvP but we need clear and visible roles for each class. The problem is that, outside of a proper premade team, soloQ players are completely oblivious to what their team members are doing and/or capable of. You can make the argument that players are supposed to communicate, but even to that extent, the game is making it difficult for players to do this successfully and efficiently. Many team sports have a great visual and informative component that tells spectators what might happen before the game even begins. Its the dispelling of these preconceived notions that adds to the excitement of the game. In football, if you see a 4-5-1 formation you would probably expect that team to be extremely offensively minded.

In DotA and LoL during the character picking process you can easily formulate a strategy based on the preconceived roles that is attributed to that particular character. It becomes easy for random players to know what their role is, and great for spectators to watch. If a player plays a character differently to what their preconceived role is, it becomes exciting and innovative.

With elite specializations the issue mentioned above becomes even more difficult to deal with. What can I tell about a team in GW2 involving a thief, a ranger, a mesmer, a necromancer and a revenant? Not much really. If we had saved build changes we might alleviate this problem slightly, at least we can quickly change builds before a match, but even so to what extent? Currently GW2’s esport game type, Conquest doesn’t even necessitate clear and defined roles because:

Issue #3: “Conquest sucks.”
Conquest favors players being able to survive and stand on a point as long as possible. It might feel fun to play, but it is extremely boring to watch. I think Anet has realized this with the removal of the Minstrel’s amulet. This actually isn’t the biggest problem. The issue with conquest is that character defeat almost always directly translates into objective failure. If you die fighting over a point, you will most likely lose that point. This game structure doubly reinforces a team’s impending loss by both awarding points to the finisher, and the map objective.

This ends up diluting the map objectives to the point where player skill becomes much more important that team tactics, which in turn is not good for spectators. Here are some comparisons where player defeat does not equate to match defeat.

In DotA the designated roles create a weighted importance on which players need to survive. Player defeat doesn’t necessarily equate to a disadvantage for the team if certain map objectives get completed in the process. For instance, sacrificing yourself to destroy a tower allows extra tactics to emerge as the enemy’s map control diminishes due to losing a tower.

Even in a game like Counterstrike, player defeat is an important component of map awareness. Since encounters are so brief in CS, losing a teammate will quickly inform the rest of the team where their map exposures are and the necessity for the team to change tactics and adapt.

It is for these reasons why maps such as Temple and Foefire are more successful, the extra objectives on that map adds both the necessity to change tactics and is spectator friendly. I think in this respect, Stronghold is a much more successful game type for SPvP, and Esports spectating in general, but it isn’t without its own set of clunky mechanics which I won’t go into here.

And finally:
Issue #4: “Visualsgate”
I’ve already alluded to “spectability” earlier on, so I’ll touch up on it here. Anet has recently been toning down their graphical skill effects lately. These skill effects are beautifully created in the first place mind you, but these changes don’t seem to have been taken well, nor achieve what they are trying to do. Large group combat is still a mess. In short it probably has something to do with the scaling of ‘impact’ effects when stuff virtue of judgement gets activated on an enemy in PvE, but I don’t think the problem is to do with the art at all. In fact, I find it insulting (for the art team) they are making such kneejerk changes to the beautiful effects.

The issue isn’t large balls of fire being hurled by an elementalist. These visual cues are important for an esport. The issue is just that there are too many different types. The visual effects also lack a sense of hierarchy as to what is definitively powerful and what isn’t. A mesmer’s greatsword AA massive bolt of energy should be reserved for something powerful and infrequent rather than something that appears on screen every second. On the other hand, it’s the engineer’s Orbital strike getting toned down? It doesn’t make sense.

These issues could’ve been tested very early on simply by asking a seasoned developer to commentate on a round of PvP. How successful will they be at doing it? How do you differentiate the importance of one fiery fireball effect vs another? And what about all these crazy combo fields? Even as a player you’d struggle to know whether you’ve successfully activated the field you want to activate thanks to the overlapping combo fields rule, how do you expect a spectator to understand it?

For the record, I think combo fields are fun as hell, but just terribly implemented, and visually distracting.

GW2 is a very fun game to play PvP wise, when you remove map objectives and what not. Its incredibly fun to survive and claw your way back against an opponent, but unfortunately, its just terrible to watch. No amount of visual downgrades will help either because its the inherent mechanics of the game itself which are the issue.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I do no watch a lot people gaming (I prefer to play myself) so maybe my opinion here is not a good representation of the status quo.

However, I think also the game-types are important and the sPvP type is just not very fun to watch imho.

Other games I did watch a little on Twitch or Youtube where Landmark and DayZ. Those types of games imho just lent themselves much better to be watched. That said, GW2 does unofficially also have a game-mode that is much more fun to watch and that is GvG.

Maybe they should try to not only look at sPvP if they want to focus on E-sports. I know that are the type game-modes that you see a lot on E-sports, but maybe that is then also the reason that quite some people don’t find E-sports very interesting to begin with.

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

I want 10vs 10 puggable queue modes. That could be fun. Modes built from the ground up for it of course.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Honestly at this point I feel like any effort sunk into the “competitive” side of things is just a waste.

Because, this is a MMORPG. A highly PvE-successful MMORPG known for its casual-friendly nature, lighthearted design, quirky attention to detail, lots of interesting ideas (if not always executed well) and relatively open and inviting combat design in regards to grouping and teaming up.

Then it has WvW, a take on PvP which is of arguable implementation but which reflects many of the design ideas of the PvE side. It also serves well as another unique aspect as not that many MMOs had this type of PvP.

And then you have sPvP, which could only fit any less in with the above if you used a 3DS to run it and it used the graphics of Pac-Man.

It’s baffling that they sink so much effort into trying to promote it as an esport. The bigger problem is that while everyone knows the ship has sailed (especially given the prevalence of MOBAs for 5v5 combat), ANet keeps clinging on. It makes for a rather sad picture.
On top of that, both PvE and especially WvW could benefit from any additional manpower available. Big time. And those two modes (and in theory a reworked an repurposed sPvP mode) fit into the goal of being a good MMORPG.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: tim.1280

tim.1280

I think the only real problem with GW2 is it’s complexity…. It is a cool game to watch however, it is extremely hard to understand what is happening if you have never played GW2 before and why would one watch something where they have no idea what is going on?

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Posted by: Asyntyche.4827

Asyntyche.4827

I think the only real problem with GW2 is it’s complexity…. It is a cool game to watch however, it is extremely hard to understand what is happening if you have never played GW2 before and why would one watch something where they have no idea what is going on?

Pretty much this, IMO. Its fun to watch some of the top players, but is confusing if you don’t know the game and the wide variety of skills.

Compared to LoL, where I can watch the LCS and pick up new champs or item changes within a couple of games, without having to play the game.

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Posted by: Snow.2506

Snow.2506

“What can I tell about a team in GW2 involving a thief, a ranger, a mesmer, a necromancer and a revenant?”

That they are idiots for bringing the thief.

For the love of the high damage, high mobility, glass cannon. Thief to the bitter end.

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Posted by: HaxTester.9816

HaxTester.9816

Since we’re talking about “e-sports”, I’d like to share this interview with Arenanet’s founder Mike O’Brien way back in 2007.

http://www.destructoid.com/destructoid-interview-arenanet-s-co-founder-mike-o-brien-creator-of-guild-wars-34058.phtml

We switched gears a bit and spoke about Guild Wars and its competitive nature. Mike stated “Guild Wars, at its most competitive level, is an e-sport.” He went on to describe the truth behind this statement by referencing the two world championships. However, he explained that Guild Wars was also intended for more casual play, as well.

Mike then talked about the challenges this caused in the original Guild Wars when pure PvP players didn’t want to touch the roleplaying portion of the game and vice versa; “We had these two extremes and no way to bridge the gap. The fact we tried to do this hurt us more than it helped, we think.” I asked how things will change in Guild Wars 2 and he said “… we’ve divded the competition into two different aspects; ‘world PvP’ and ‘e-sport PvP.’” “In Guild Wars 2, we’ve gotten rid of a lot of the complexity in the e-sport PVP. You will have access to every skill this time.” This means that PvP players no longer need to unlock skills to use them on their PvP character.

Anvil Rockers Unite!

(edited by HaxTester.9816)

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Posted by: Loxias.2375

Loxias.2375

Some genius made a killing off selling ANet the idea that GW2 could ever be an esport. Don’t fall for the hype.

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Posted by: Notsoperky.2348

Notsoperky.2348

Sadly, GW2 is missing many components that made Guild Wars such a great pvp game, and one that was easy to spectate and to understand what was going on.

The average casual spectator in Guild Wars could track a player, see the skills they used, watch the positioning and pick up on tactics. And it had death penalty in gvg matches, split team, different maps which needed different tactics- but at all times, you could see what was happening. Building teams was way easier as you could design and share templates and as a pvp’er half the fun was working out a good team build with synergies and being able to share those builds around.

GW2 has a mess of particle effects, it’s hard to see what’s happening half the time, single players can stand on a spot and laugh at anyone trying to move them off whilst some hysterical kid screams into their microphone describing the ‘action’. It’s not fun to watch, you can’t see their build, there are no templates so trying to get others to take on the stats and build you want becomes a chore in itself- then if you change something you had better have written the original down in case you want to change back to it…

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

I think stronghold was a step in the right direction, though it’s missing some components that made Isle of Conquest and Alterac Valley great from that other game.

" ‘What can I tell about a team in GW2 involving a thief, a ranger, a mesmer, a necromancer and a revenant?’

That they are idiots for bringing the thief."

Yet the most vital and important thing of all, class balance was not even mentioned. Thief being largely confined to situational single target damage should have the highest DPS in the game due to the high skillcap. I think damage should revolve around a class’s other bonuses.

Ranger: has range, pet holds aggro. Should have good DPS, but with druid should be a 30% power turns into healing power to avoid imbalance while also avoiding crippling non-druid ranger DPS. Tune healing skills to compensate.

Guardian: Lots of group support with healing, boons, stability, aegis and such. However, their mobility and HP are relatively low, but their damage more than makes up for that.

Warrior: Stability, great HP and defense, good support with banners, mobility is lacking however. While some ranged options are decent (talking PvE here) they’re primarily meant to main melee. Their damage should be higher than what it is given what other classes have in both damage and utility.

Engineer: The shaman of Guild Wars 2. Their turrets can be destroyed, which should factor into balancing damage. They really shine in conditions. Firearms, inventions, and scrapper make a deadly combo anywhere. Great for healing, cleansing, crowd control, and condition damage. In DCUO Rifle and gadgets was the best overall build in PvP and PvE, and looks like Guild Wars 2 is following that formula. I’m confident the Punisher would solo Mordremoth or any elder dragon. I hope though Marvel doesn’t cross over with this game unless they keep it to Punisher or Captain America’s power tier since if Galactus were a villain they’d need to raise the level cap to the thousands, and I don’t want to grind that much.

Elementalist: Great mobility, decent healing, burning, and CC, and AoE damage. Something is always off CD. Dagger/dagger has faster proccing skills than staff, which due to being telegraphy makes it inferior to d/d unless in zerg vs. zerg in WvW. Is too tanky and damaging considering its utility and versatility.

Thief: Just stealth that requires traiting steal for it (which means you have to give up the other traits like group boons upon stealth for it) actives with long cooldowns and counters (even in PvE you can be knocked out of a shadow refuge complete with the reveal debuff) or initiative cost where you accept lower movement speed while in stealth. Some CC, but again who doesn’t have that and others like ele’s frost staff chill field are simply better than anything thief has access to. With initiative everything shares a CD, and while thief has mobility it isn’t good enough to justify the ludicrously bad damage or survivability. You only have two casts of shortbow 5 then you’re defenseless for a few more seconds. Considering what all the other classes have in utility without giving up damage it’s time thief receives a damage buff in light of their low base HP, toughness, group utility, or even AoE options. Thief needs to be in melee to do any decent damage, so that alone should suggests buffs. Range has easier and more convenient ways of delivering damage. Has anyone hit a mob with ranged attacks hoping they’d chase you off a cliff (in any game) but instead of that they counter with ranged? Due to the relative inconvenience of melee it should hit harder.

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Posted by: Hawke.1094

Hawke.1094

OK, here’s my thought on the e-sport thing:
Guild Wars 2, no matter how hard you try, will never become a real e-sport. Sure, you can organize a tournament yourself can call it e-sport, but the general gaming population wont.

Why? Because it’s a MMORPG.

I’m not saying MMORPG is bad, I’m just saying the type of gameplay does not fit the e-sport idea too well.
If you look at other e-sport games, generally there are 2 popular types:
+ Games with many different characters, each has a set amount of skills. Those are mostly MOBA like LoL or DotA, but can also be shooters such as Overwatch.
+ Games with only 1 characters but with different items. Most of these are shooters such as CS or CoD, BF, etc.

If you want to get in the e-sport scene, you have to fit in those 2 category.
Why?
Firstly, because it is easier for the new comers and the spectators to enjoy the game without spending 75% of the time wondering what’s going on.
Second, it is much easier to balance the game in general. You either balance the characters OR the items, not both.

Why cant Guild Wars 2 do it? Well, because the whole class system is TOO complicated for a e-sport game. Classes have different gear set, different weapons, different skills, different skill trees, etc.
For examples:

In GW2, a warrior can have 37 different main skills and 29 different utility skills. A normal person will take atleast an hour to know what all those skills do. And a GS on a war will have completely different skills and effects then on a guardian. How are people supposed to know what’s going on when matches are only 15 min max?

A character in GW2 can have tons and tons of different armor and specialization combination that is completely hidden away from a spectator and is too complicated even if it’s shown.

It is literally impossible to make a balanced gameplay with all those combinations of different skills and builds. I have never seen any MMORPG manage to balance everything.

The only thing that can put GW2 into the e-sport scene is to make preset for each weapon (not class) in sPvP. Simplify it down and give each preset a different role and name in a party. Then balance the presets.
No more customization = no more overpower or underpower builds, just presets. And instead of having to balance 9000 different builds, you only have 50 presets to work with.
By doing this, you will separate the sPvP and the PvE/WvW, but that’s the cost of going e-sport. A gear/build-dependent game will never go e-sport, simple as that.

(edited by Hawke.1094)

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

“Why cant Guild Wars 2 do it? Well, because the whole class system is TOO complicated for a e-sport game. Classes have different gear set, different weapons, different skills, different skill trees, etc.”

But it’s that potentially rich complexity that makes the game appealing in the first place. Everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

PvP is already separate gear wise since it uses amulets and not different armor combinations. Your suggestions would make gameplay bland and shallow.

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Posted by: Hawke.1094

Hawke.1094

But it’s that potentially rich complexity that makes the game appealing in the first place. Everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

The complexity is exactly what stopping GW2 from going e-sport. You cant balance something so complex, and spectators cant understand what’s going on either with all the different builds.
The complexity is good for PvE or WvW, but for an e-sport? Not really.

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

But it’s that potentially rich complexity that makes the game appealing in the first place. Everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

The complexity is exactly what stopping GW2 from going e-sport. You cant balance something so complex, and spectators cant understand what’s going on either with all the different builds.
The complexity is good for PvE or WvW, but for an e-sport? Not really.

To evolve a genre you need to ask what is it missing and add it. MMO’s in general lacked an active dodge, so GW2 took a step in the right direction there. Though it also took a step back when you couldn’t bind all your utilities and had to choose, meaning you could be in a situation where a certain utility would be good, you have the sense and skill to know to use it…but it just isn’t available due to artificial limitation. The only people who really care about watching are other players themselves for technical tips and pointers.

With VR technology coming out hopefully there’ll be some kinetic input devices that move with our characters so that even keyboard and mice get obsoleted. That would be great for the genre I think but would mechanically be closer to fighting games.

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Posted by: Hawke.1094

Hawke.1094

But it’s that potentially rich complexity that makes the game appealing in the first place. Everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

The complexity is exactly what stopping GW2 from going e-sport. You cant balance something so complex, and spectators cant understand what’s going on either with all the different builds.
The complexity is good for PvE or WvW, but for an e-sport? Not really.

To evolve a genre you need to ask what is it missing and add it. MMO’s in general lacked an active dodge, so GW2 took a step in the right direction there. Though it also took a step back when you couldn’t bind all your utilities and had to choose, meaning you could be in a situation where a certain utility would be good, you have the sense and skill to know to use it…but it just isn’t available due to artificial limitation. The only people who really care about watching are other players themselves for technical tips and pointers.

With VR technology coming out hopefully there’ll be some kinetic input devices that move with our characters so that even keyboard and mice get obsoleted. That would be great for the genre I think but would mechanically be closer to fighting games.

Dodge system isnt new in MMORPG. Other games such as Tera, RaiderZ, etc have them too and they still werent able to go e-sport.
As I said, the flaws that prevent MMORPG to go e-sport is the amount of complex, flexible and game changing factors.
There are too many things for game developers to balance.

Plus, shooters, MOBAs and RTS are e-sport because most, if not all, of the game changing factors are visible to the viewers. It’s just not the same for RPGs, they’re too complex, and most of them are hidden from the spectators and casters.

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

But it’s that potentially rich complexity that makes the game appealing in the first place. Everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

The complexity is exactly what stopping GW2 from going e-sport. You cant balance something so complex, and spectators cant understand what’s going on either with all the different builds.
The complexity is good for PvE or WvW, but for an e-sport? Not really.

To evolve a genre you need to ask what is it missing and add it. MMO’s in general lacked an active dodge, so GW2 took a step in the right direction there. Though it also took a step back when you couldn’t bind all your utilities and had to choose, meaning you could be in a situation where a certain utility would be good, you have the sense and skill to know to use it…but it just isn’t available due to artificial limitation. The only people who really care about watching are other players themselves for technical tips and pointers.

With VR technology coming out hopefully there’ll be some kinetic input devices that move with our characters so that even keyboard and mice get obsoleted. That would be great for the genre I think but would mechanically be closer to fighting games.

Dodge system isnt new in MMORPG. Other games such as Tera, RaiderZ, etc have them too and they still werent able to go e-sport.
As I said, the flaws that prevent MMORPG to go e-sport is the amount of complex, flexible and game changing factors.
There are too many things for game developers to balance.

Plus, shooters, MOBAs and RTS are e-sport because most, if not all, of the game changing factors are visible to the viewers. It’s just not the same for RPGs, they’re too complex, and most of them are hidden from the spectators and casters.

Mechanics that work for some games can be great on their own by not work for others. Skyrim for example is a good game because of its modding, flexibility, and control in the player’s hands. However, in an MMO the mechanics that make Skyrim great would need to be sacrificed in the name of balance and fair play and a mod that mitigates fall damage for example would be a banworthy offense.

The RPG genre has been dead for sometime. An RPG is a game with menus enabling lots of good options and strategic depth. Is there a very tanky boss who’ll rage? Ahh, that spell I don’t normally use because of 1% damage loss per tick seeming small suddenly can drastically shorten the length of this battle. The battle screens give a larger sense of scale to the world and skylines can be seen. Yet these mechanics also wouldn’t work in an MMO environment since it isn’t active enough. Great for singpleplayer however.

Problem with “advances” in gaming is they aren’t advancing in the right direction usually. Instead of destructible environments, meaningful paths with lots of alternate endings, and building on the menu-based combat games add cutscenes, voice acting, verbal cues (so listening to music would be a disadvantage), ditch menu based combat entirely (if I want to play an action game like Link or Dark Souls I’ll play one) and are either way too deterministic (Final Fantasy XIII though its combat system is a bit gimmicky) or open ended (Skyrim), either too linear and structured or not structured enough. What makes things worse is the RPG label getting thrown on stuff that’s nothing of the sort. Mass Effect isn’t an RPG, it’s a third person shooter. Shoot, cover, shoot some more, sniper rifle to minimize surprises, etc. It just doesn’t feel the same as the old school shooters you can just buy off Steam and since they’re first person you have no character obstructing your view.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have to be an Esport game, just offer good skill based team PvP. The infrastructure is already there, they just need a radical rebalancing of classes and separate PvP cooldown and durations on skills from PvE like what WoW does.

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Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

I would like to point out that GW2 as an esport is indeed flawed from the beginning not only in the things you mentioned in the first post but because it is an MMO, a genre that has several different modes to play. Every time they make a balance change around PvP both PvE and WvW suffer because the balance was not made because of those modes regardless of whether or not it was needed in those modes. The huge benefit that games like Dota2 and LoL have is that they effectively have one game mode which EVERY SINGLE PERSON PLAYS. So all balance changes effect everybody evenly without impacting unrelated game modes too much. It is a very arcade like style that allows this to happen.

By focusing so much on their PvP esport they are ignoring a large amount of players who also contribute to the game’s future through buying gems. As an MMO Guild Wars 2 needs to focus on what makes an MMO great which is usually any unique features the game has and PvE which most everybody needs to play. In this case the unique feature is World v World which is something I have not seen in other games and I think has the potential to be a really successful mode. The problem is that despite the game being called “guild wars” there really isn’t much guild wars going on. It is more like “let me stand on this point PvP wars”.

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

Sorry Agemnon i cant agree with anything you said. Firstly i didnt mention balance because the issues with GW2 are more fundamental than balance, its the framework the game is balanced to. Its as if the rules of football are broken, there’d be no point imposing a salary cap.

I agree with hawke in that the game is too complex for its own good. Complexity in a competitive environment should be bred from a simple paradigm, via people doing things creatively with the limited set of tools they have.

The most entertaining part of a GvG in GW1 was watching 6 of the 8 players on a team coordinate a spike on the enemy monk. Everything happens in about 2-3 seconds where eqch player pretty much only fires off two attacks. The skills they used might differ slightly but the idea is simple, the mechanics are complex.

Players making the game complex by innovation is what this game needs, not the game doing it for them.

I agree with the people above also that the ‘casual’ nature of GW2 holds it back completely in being an esport, but as I said earlier, this game is inaccessible even for casuals

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

The game itself is fine and the fundamental problem with streamlining is it takes options and potential depth away. If you play WoW at all you’d know that GW2 isn’t complex enough if anything since you’re only limited to 10 skills (utilities plus weapon skills) at a time in combat whereas in WoW you could fill your entire keyboard with abilities and getting good means knowing when to use what ability.

If things simplify too much it just degenerates into old school overly simplistic damage and healing. no conditions, CC (or very limited), and becomes like an uninteresting trash mobile game.

Dark Souls may be fun as a singleplayer game, but no one respects it (or DS II) as a serious PvP game. Same with GW2 but because class balance is weak. This is Guild Wars 2 not League of Legends. If people want to play that or DOTA II they’d play them. People are drawn to play GW2 because of the mechanics unique to it. You can do stuff in GW2 that you can’t in LoL or WoW and that’s a good thing.

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

People are (or only just maybe) drawn to GW2 because the game is fun to play. It is terrible to watch. As I said you need both players and spectators. And it has very little to do with the visuals, as I also have said. The mechanics are simply too complex to be a spectator sport.

Do you think showing off a complex build is entertaining? People want to see action in an action sport, not get explained to how masterful his build creation is.

Also, people don’t see dark souls as a pvp game because it has no official framework in it. Numerous player imposed rules needed to be applied which is simply too troublesome to make an esport.

You need the player to see the red sign which can be a matter of luck, and you need the correct person to see it too. Then you need to impose specific soul level rules, and the ways to change builds is laborious.

There is no framework for it to be a PvP game, but in terms of game mechanics and spectator friendliness it is streets, oceans and galaxies ahead of GW2.

P.S. not going to go in depth in another game anymore, it has no place in this topic.

(edited by Ramoth.9064)

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

This can’t really be an esport – the OP pretty much sums up why.
Another reason is the frequent balance passes that nerf and change things.

The problem with this is that GW2’s meta changes and it isn’t clear who’s doing what.

So you might have followed GW2 competitive back when warrior hambow was meta and now return to find warrior being a support shoutbow instead of the brawler hambow. This is confusing.

In MOBAS – such as Dota 2 – you never get this kind of situation – where one day a hero does one thing and another he does a completely different thing.
There are metas, they shift – but heroes usually even through chances maintain their role – while in GW2 a guardian can both bunker or burst dps – depending on the meta.

It makes it very confusing to watch and understand.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

Football and soccer are very complex yet they’re popular worldwide. You have countless formations, techniques, need tactical awareness in addition to elite standards of physical fitness to be watched at an international level.

“Do you think showing off a complex build is entertaining?”

Some people like knowing the underlying mechanics behind what they watch. I’m pretty sure lots of tennis fans would like to know Federer’s exercise routine and diet. The actual match itself is the most glamorous thing, but there are lots of underlying details spectators miss or don’t understand, in any sport.

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Posted by: Rogue Potato.4723

Rogue Potato.4723

Guild wars 1’s PvP worked well because of 1 simple thing. PvE and PvP were balanced separately, something this game is in sore need of. I have read around here a few times that ANet agree to this statement, but say it’s too much work to implement. If this is true, then it’s just pure laziness and they should be content with the knowledge it will never be an E-sport.

I don’t think it being “spectator friendly” is actually as big a thing as you make it out to be. In my experience, people watch games that they themselves play…

I tried to watch a StarCraft tournament final once and gave up 5 minutes into the game because I had no idea what was going, and that is arguably the biggest E-sport out there.

Sure, allow for more visibility and improve spectator options, but that alone I think is one of the smallest things that will affect whether or not this game becomes an Esport. We need class balance, we need it differentiated from PvE, we need more game types that require both tactics and strategy (there is a difference, tactics allow you to achieve your strategy). This could be simple things like making positioning more important (like a ranger lb shooting further if he’s high up, which is genius by the way). Improved mechanics, and MORE mechanics that have variety, can be manipulated by players and built around.

Thats just my 2 cents anyway.

“When there’s no point in doing something, the best idea is not to do it.”

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

Harper: Yes I agree. Spectator preconceptions are very important, because there is pay off when these preconceptions are shattered. Like I said earlier, you look at a team composition and you have no idea what they MIGHT do (other than bunker, because, see issue #3). Even the commentator has limited tools to check what build the players are running.

Agemnon: Until that ‘some people’ becomes ‘most people’ it means diddly squat. I’m sure there are people out there who watch Sharapova for her moaning, but that will never be the reason why people watch her.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Honestly, when they made the jump from instanced party limited pve to open world persistant pve, they should have also axed the notion of instanced, party limited pvp.

GW2s systems work well in their intended place. In WvW and PvE. They’re a massive mess in spvp. Conquest IS a step in the right direction, but GW2 isn’t ever going to catch on simply because it’s too hard for spectators to follow, and the combination of extreme twitch-reflexes reliant combat and statistical and ability knowledge depth makes it extremely difficult for newcomers to pick up and play a L80 build and do anything meaningful with it.

Without that ease of entry, and ease to follow for spectators, you don’t have something likely to draw a lot of fans. You’ve made a good PvP game, but not an accessible PvP game, and making it accessible is core to mass market appeal for the esports market.

Let’s stop wasting money on esports promotion, just support sPvP as a game for the people that play it in stead of the people that watch or broadcast it on twitch nad maybe seriously invest some effort in to WvW, where the mechanics are actually designed around GW2’s core gameplay.

Too many studios are attempting to ride the twitch/esports money train at the expense of the people they should be catering to: the every day players of their game.

Stop developing video games to be watched. Develop them to be fun, and support your esports community if it develops, but stop trying to manufacture one when it doesn’t actually exist.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

(edited by PopeUrban.2578)

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Harper: Yes I agree. Spectator preconceptions are very important, because there is pay off when these preconceptions are shattered. Like I said earlier, you look at a team composition and you have no idea what they MIGHT do (other than bunker, because, see issue #3). Even the commentator has limited tools to check what build the players are running.

Agemnon: Until that ‘some people’ becomes ‘most people’ it means diddly squat. I’m sure there are people out there who watch Sharapova for her moaning, but that will never be the reason why people watch her.

Regular sports are easy to watch because they’re easy to understand visually – they depict something you see in the real world. Something you at one point may have done yourself – most of us have tried at least a few popular sports in our life even if at an extremely amateur-ish level.

GW2 is different because it’s like the OP mentions very hard to watch. I’ve had people watch me play – some gamers and some not.

Gamers are put off by the fact that they know they’ll have to “learn” the game before they can watch the Esport and appreciate it. The non-gamers don’t even understand what exactly it is they’re watching.

I mean – I’ve played 3k hours of GW2, about 10k hours of Dota, Dota2 and HoN combined and I can’t really watch a LoL game and figure out exactly what’s going on because while I can grasp the concepts – some heroes are carries, some supports, this is a push, this is a fight etc- I don’t know what everyone is doing, how they’re doing it – are they doing it at the right time?

The entry barrier to watch GW2 as an Esport is very very high.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Football and soccer are very complex yet they’re popular worldwide. You have countless formations, techniques, need tactical awareness in addition to elite standards of physical fitness to be watched at an international level.

“Do you think showing off a complex build is entertaining?”

Some people like knowing the underlying mechanics behind what they watch. I’m pretty sure lots of tennis fans would like to know Federer’s exercise routine and diet. The actual match itself is the most glamorous thing, but there are lots of underlying details spectators miss or don’t understand, in any sport.

See my post above – there’s something I want to add.

Let’s take Soccer – soccer is fun but I’m willing to bet you it’s closer and more recognizable to people than a video game is even to gamers. Why? Because visually it’s easy to follow and it relies on the basic premise that you know what it means to be human – since you are a human yourself – you know the limits of what a human can do and how difficult some things are.

For example – I don’t watch soccer ( i doubt i’ve ever seen more than 15 minutes continuously) – but I can recognize a good play or a tough shot/goal because I have an inherent feel for things that I can relate to.

In GW2 – in order to recognize a skilled play you have to know the classes, the skills, the mechanics, the goals, it’s all incredibly complex.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

They could try focusing on the visualization of objectives. Make things like point gain bigger and more attention-grabbing. Make the result of a kill more visually exciting. Allow people to do stuff like zoom in on a kill animation, or run an instant replay.

I mean, some people watch football and understand it, but let’s be real, there are those who like the visual appeal of the rough and tumble, or the guys who gloat after a touchdown.

Make it staggeringly obvious when somebody gets a gain or loss, both with visuals and auditory, and I think they will be making strong strides toward interesting content for spectators. So that the game doesn’t get loaded down with effects, these could be notifications that only trigger while in spectator mode.

These guys need to hire a good cinematographer and get his input. You make the sport fun to watch and people won’t care a whole lot about how much they understand it. There are universal concepts that people understand and they can take advantage of them with some doing.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: laokoko.7403

laokoko.7403

The thing is you are comparing GW2 to stand alone MOBA such as LOL or DOTA.

That’s like comparing GW2 personal story to skyrim or fallout.

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

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Posted by: Rogue Potato.4723

Rogue Potato.4723

The thing is you are comparing GW2 to stand alone MOBA such as LOL or DOTA.

That’s like comparing GW2 personal story to skyrim or fallout.

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

comparing it to gw1 pvp, it is, in my humble opinion, worse. for the reasons i previously stated.

“When there’s no point in doing something, the best idea is not to do it.”

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

The thing is you are comparing GW2 to stand alone MOBA such as LOL or DOTA.

That’s like comparing GW2 personal story to skyrim or fallout.

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

It doesn’t matter what I compare it to, it is the end result that should matter. The end result is visual garbage no one wants to watch at the moment. It doesn’t matter if it is better than all the other garbage MMORPGs out there. Dota and LoL just happen to be good examples of very watchable esports.

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Posted by: Hawke.1094

Hawke.1094

The thing is you are comparing GW2 to stand alone MOBA such as LOL or DOTA.

That’s like comparing GW2 personal story to skyrim or fallout.

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

That’s the whole point. Being a “really good” mmorpg doesnt mean it’s any good as an e-sport game. As mentioned in my first post, LoL, DotA or shooters like CS are considered e-sport for a reason. In fact, the better an mmorpg is, the harder it is to success at goin e-sport.

Yes, e-sport games can be complex sometimes, but it’s the right kind of complex and at the right amount. They are the tactical complexity. The tactics themselves are complex, not the game itself.
While GW2 is 180 opposite. The complexity is in the builds, which, honestly, casual viewers dont give a crap about.
Thus the only way to turn GW2 into an e-sport is to eliminate the build system and give it a more tactical gameplay.

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

The thing is you are comparing GW2 to stand alone MOBA such as LOL or DOTA.

That’s like comparing GW2 personal story to skyrim or fallout.

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

That’s the whole point. Being a “really good” mmorpg doesnt mean it’s any good as an e-sport game. As mentioned in my first post, LoL, DotA or shooters like CS are considered e-sport for a reason. In fact, the better an mmorpg is, the harder it is to success at goin e-sport.

Yes, e-sport games can be complex sometimes, but it’s the right kind of complex and at the right amount. They are the tactical complexity. The tactics themselves are complex, not the game itself.
While GW2 is 180 opposite. The complexity is in the builds, which, honestly, casual viewers dont give a crap about.
Thus the only way to turn GW2 into an e-sport is to eliminate the build system and give it a more tactical gameplay.

Wow, I couldn’t have put it better myself. I think the wall of text I entered in the beginning can be easily proved in a practical sense.

Load up a nifhel map. Make it 5 v 5 elementalists only (if everyone is the same class there are no class balance issues). Get a dev to commentate on the match. I assure you these issues will occur:

Commentator will have a hard time introducing/hypothesizing team tactics.
Encounters will be extremely hard to describe due to combo fields, boons and conditions.
Very little change of tactics can be differentiated from the beginning of the match to the end of the match.

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Posted by: Vanthian.9267

Vanthian.9267

If you just compare GW2 pvp to other mmorpg pvp, it is actually really good already.

Can say this with quite the amount of certainty; absolutely false. Even Echo of Souls PvP is better than Guild Wars 2 “PvP”. There are very few mmos that do PvP worse than Guild Wars 2; maybe the same but not worse.

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Posted by: rennlc.7346

rennlc.7346

My biggest issue with watching GW2 sPvP events is they try to show us everything that’s going on and it’s too much of too little. We get to watch one team fight for 8-10 seconds, someone running to decap for 2 secounds, a cele vs cele 1v1 for 4 seconds, back to a team fight, someone getting stomped on an edge node for 2 seconds, and repeat. When compared to watching players who stream games from player-hosted tournaments and scrimmages, it’s also much less interesting. In those videos, we can focus on the player streaming the match and we can hear the communication between himself and the team. This simplifies the viewer experience to focusing more on one class and their communication can reveal a lot about the game’s strategy. It narrows the scope of the viewer and does so in a way which is simpler and more personal.

Caed once streamed a scrimmage between The Abjured and his team at the time. It was really exciting because by being able to hear the communication and focus on Caed, the games seemed like less of a 5v5 with a lot going on. It became more of a cat and mouse game between Caed and Magic Toker as they attempted to out-rotate one another. This was easier to follow, revealed more about the nuances of GW2 (particularly D/P Thief), and for me at least, was more demanding of my attention because ultimately, it told a story. When I watch sPvP events now, I’m disappointed because I want to see more of this. I want to know more about Helseth’s struggles and successes with escaping focus fire. I wanted to see more of Edison and Kim Possible attempting to out-rotate and burst the much slower, tankier composition Radioactive was attempting to defeat them with. There are stories in these games and we aren’t getting to read much into them nor are we having them brought to our attention by the commentators with the current format.

Currently, GW2’s accessibility to sPvP events in fantastic for seeing what builds people are using and witnessing the outcomes of fights, games, and tournaments. However, it can also be so much more and we the viewer can learn more about how and why a fight, game, or tournament was won. To me, that’s what’s most compelling and what would keep me coming back for more over the alternatives for this form of entertainment.

(edited by rennlc.7346)

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

As I said, the flaws that prevent MMORPG to go e-sport is the amount of complex, flexible and game changing factors.
There are too many things for game developers to balance.

Which isn’t really a flaw, either.
Only in regards to wanting to be an eSport. Because OTOH, these elements are exactly what makes the game long-term viable as a social gaming system for MMO-gamers. Including the constant balance-pendulum, which is rather important to not let class balance go stale.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Lucifer.7289

Lucifer.7289

There are many flaws to trying to make a MMO based game an Esport, often to make a MMO really competitive they will have to make sacrifices in other aspects of the game, which has a negative impact on rest of the community.

I think it boils down to corporations just being greedy, we all know these corporations never cared about Esports in MMOs when Esports was not mainstream like it is today.

All the sudden after 10+ years of hard work by the community in various games and scenes, the corporations want to try and cash in with the infrastructure created by these communities.

It’s a pretty big insult to the real Esport games that paid the way, that any game with pvp in it, all the sudden companies want to make them Esports in order to cash in on the possible advertisement space and other perks of their game being consider an Esport.

I would like to say I’m not against an MMO with pvp trying to be an Esport, I’m just saying from my experience of companies trying to do so always ended up in failure. Even World of Warcraft struggles from this, most of their viewership is based on the game title.

As someone who has competed in Brood war, Warcraft 3 and starcraft 2, it’s very hard to take games like gw2 ect seriously in a competitive environment based on how these companies go about their priorities. Just my observations over the years.

Hellion

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Posted by: Zaerah.1630

Zaerah.1630

I have never really believed in this game becoming a large scale esport (though i would want it to succeed)
Mostly because of what tim.1280 already said earlier along with op, this game is just too hard to understand for spectators and i don’t really see how a-net can fix that

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Posted by: Mefiq.7039

Mefiq.7039

its rly hard to disagree with OP. +1

“Im speaker of Truth” – Mefiq.7039 2015

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

Its interesting that one of the ESL’s competition modes is a 2v2. Some strange rules apply like no celestial and no bunker. Since the ESL is one of the only consistent esport competitions for gw2 around and they deem it fit to have 2v2 i dont see why this isnt officially implemented in the game.

They are on the right track, since the game emphasizes there are no clearcut roles each class should be able to hold their own in straight up fights. Some extra statistical implementations can also help break ties since we dont want two bunkers not killing each other.

Id love to have a 1v1 game mode that consists of 3 players per team, the winner stays on to combat the next person in an opponents team until everyone is defeated. A game mode like this brings out the strengths of gw2’s complex combat system; fluid twitch combat and is entertaining to watch. Itd be like watching a wvw roamer. The maps can then be designed to reward those with craftier mobile builds

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

OP is wrong on about half the issues:

1. Infrastructure would definitely help. But it’s not going to completely hold it back either. As long as the base game is fun and engaging at multiple skill levels, it will succeed.

2. There are defined roles, but it’s not clear what they to average players or viewers. However, giving rigid roles wouldn’t really improve anything. MMORPG PvP is very fluid – you can’t really shape it to follow some formula. Add to that, the bruiser meta further blurred the lines. When we had bunkers and burst, you could mostly tell what someone was going to do and what their strengths and weaknesses were. Now it’s just a mess.
Unfortunately, you can’t change this given GW2’s design.

3. Conquest is the best competitive PvP format for an MMORPG. No contest. Although other modes may be popular, they’re not good for competition. The biggest issue with many of them (capture the flag, deathmatch/annihilation) is the staring contest/stalemate. In deathmatch/annihilation, pushing forward typically involves blowing cooldowns, and if opponents fake it out, you’re behind. As a result, both teams end up waiting for the other to make a move. The other extreme is the stalemate where neither team can gain an advantage. In Capture the Flag, it’s often both teams sitting at their base with the enemy flag being carried by a near un-killable tank.

4. Graphic spam hurts, but I’ve grown to think that’s a facade. Even if you could see animations, would an average player know even half of them? Sure, they may know them for the profession they play, but not all 9. It goes back to the issue about defined roles. It used to be that a bunker held a node and assisted teammates, DPS needed to coordinate burst, thief would roam around to back-cap and gank, etc. Even if you weren’t that knowledgeable about how they did it, you could see if they were being effective at their job.

The best way to become an esport is to have a strong base game. When a lot of people play it, a lot of people will watch it. GW2 has a few issues with getting a lot of people to play.

  • PvP has a high learning curve. It’s hard to find out what you did wrong and iterate. Conquest is very deep with rotations, when to stay at a node and when to leave it, who to send where, etc. However, that’s not very obvious to most players and there’s no real way to teach what’s good and bad about map-level play.
  • Poor balancing, limited useful choices. Out of all the possibilities, only a few are actually useful. This is partly due to sluggish and poor balance and partly due to lack of stat customization. When only a handful of combinations are actually useful, general players will struggle to find something which works and often give up. It’s hard to tell when it’s a bad build, lack of skill, or just mis-matched. Limiting stat choices to extremes adds to this frustration. Average players will die quickly on a DPS amulet, or be frustrated at not being able to kill anything with overly tanky choices. Because traits and runes often cover for amulet choice, it’s hard to make small changes or ween into a build. You also don’t have any variation in playstyle.
Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

Theres nothing wrong with teamplay tactics involving waiting out for the enemy to make a mistake, proper balance would dictate it works both for and against a attacking or defending side such that it either tactics are favorable. This is why conquest is kittening terrible and why no other successful esport is similar. As the map objectives are being rewarded there are no shifts in tactics or how the match should be recovered, it simply invites the losing team to ‘do better’. Even regular sports allow for substitutes. Conquest is simply a glorified team arena which promotes defensive play over everything else.

I actually agreed gw2 is a fun pvp game. But people on this forum agree unanimously it is a failure of an esport, read what i said about spectators. Look at how many kittening boons and conditions we have. Only several have proper visual cues. If i watched a game of LoL or DotA much of the action can be simply explained from visual cues even as an uninformed viewer. Aside from a few odd unique effects (like winter wyvern’s ult) most of the action is self explanatory. You expect the spectator to understand why you died attacking some guy who leapt through a well of blood?

Little things matter to a game trying to be good. Dota has ranging from the most basic, like game history, to comparing when the same decision to do a certain action over a range of games. Its these tools that promote improvement in the community.

Stronghold is a step in the right direction but you cant help but think Anet is now just moving onto other ventures since conquest is a terrible game mode. They probably know it too.

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Posted by: Blasino.3128

Blasino.3128

I haven’t posted in these forums in a while due to the change of the overall community and the players that quit that I enjoyed reading from.

I haven’t played the game since a month before expansion release. When I saw how they were balancing the classes and did the borderlands stress test I cut my losses.

I had to log in to comment on the OP. This is a great thread. It deserves so much more attention and love and I really hope the developers read it and re-read it if they are serious bout GW2 PvP (which based on the trend of things they are not).

In reality this isn’t a ship they can right. This game is pretty much what it is after 3 years.

Uturunku Yana, Guardian / Chullachaqui Yana, Engie
Group Stability is a hell of a Drug – Rick James
vT

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

I’ve been playing pvp mmos since 1998. GW2 pvp is one of the best pvp experiences I’ve ever had. The others are Ultima Online, DAoC, and Darkfall. GW2 is the only game I’ve played that comes close.

It seems to me most people who think this is a failing esport are the ones who just couldn’t cut it, and they attempt to spread this Esports is a failure idea. They complain about OmG why would they spend 400k on a pvp competition when “I” think they should spend it on balance because the game is clearly imbalanced because I didn’t make it to pro leagues! Dunning kreuger.

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

(edited by NeXeD.3042)

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

I’ve been playing pvp mmos since 1998. GW2 pvp is one of the best pvp experiences I’ve ever had. The others are Ultima Online, DAoC, and Darkfall. GW2 is the only game I’ve played that comes close.

It seems to me most people who think this is a failing esport are the ones who just couldn’t cut it, and they attempt to spread this Esports is a failure idea. They complain about OmG why would they spend 400k on a pvp competition when “I” think they should spend it on balance because the game is clearly imbalanced because I didn’t make it to pro leagues! Dunning kreuger.

I think you’re the one in denial the picture below is common scene in GW2 for many, the “e-sport” you’re ranting about exist only in your fantasies
http://imgur.com/Da5ojvI

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

I’ve been playing pvp mmos since 1998. GW2 pvp is one of the best pvp experiences I’ve ever had. The others are Ultima Online, DAoC, and Darkfall. GW2 is the only game I’ve played that comes close.

It seems to me most people who think this is a failing esport are the ones who just couldn’t cut it, and they attempt to spread this Esports is a failure idea. They complain about OmG why would they spend 400k on a pvp competition when “I” think they should spend it on balance because the game is clearly imbalanced because I didn’t make it to pro leagues! Dunning kreuger.

I think you’re the one in denial the picture below is common scene in GW2 for many, the “e-sport” you’re ranting about exist only in your fantasies
http://imgur.com/Da5ojvI

So because the EU necro hero’s team got their kitten handed to them it’s an esports failure? Or is it a failure because it’s possible for good teams to get beat so badly?

At least I’m not one of the people in denial about their own skill, I know what I won’t make pro leagues, while I think lots of other entitled players think they are much better than they are so they call it a failure.

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: Harvey.7820

Harvey.7820

I’ve been playing pvp mmos since 1998. GW2 pvp is one of the best pvp experiences I’ve ever had. The others are Ultima Online, DAoC, and Darkfall. GW2 is the only game I’ve played that comes close.

It seems to me most people who think this is a failing esport are the ones who just couldn’t cut it, and they attempt to spread this Esports is a failure idea. They complain about OmG why would they spend 400k on a pvp competition when “I” think they should spend it on balance because the game is clearly imbalanced because I didn’t make it to pro leagues! Dunning kreuger.

You must be an EXTREMELY slow learner if you’ve PvPed from 1998 and still cant recognize class imbalance. Maybe you’re one of those players that plays FoTM classes on every patch release.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

I’ve been playing pvp mmos since 1998. GW2 pvp is one of the best pvp experiences I’ve ever had. The others are Ultima Online, DAoC, and Darkfall. GW2 is the only game I’ve played that comes close.

It seems to me most people who think this is a failing esport are the ones who just couldn’t cut it, and they attempt to spread this Esports is a failure idea. They complain about OmG why would they spend 400k on a pvp competition when “I” think they should spend it on balance because the game is clearly imbalanced because I didn’t make it to pro leagues! Dunning kreuger.

Just because you like it and they throw $400,000 at it doesn’t make it an e-sport.

Everyone says the e-sports ship has sailed because the viewer numbers are continually poor and the experience for the general player doesn’t encourage a large, stable community. Matchmaking is still frustrating, balance is still awful (there are less than 9 viable high-end builds) and only seems to get worse, etc.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Ramoth.9064

Ramoth.9064

Nexed I’d like to remind you that my issue is not with class balance or fun factor, in fact I’ve already said gw2 is a lot of fun to play.

But a fun game isnt necessarily a game that translates into a compatible for esports game. If you read my initial post it highlights all the isssues that are holding it back. I make these topics in hopes arenanet can improve in the esports scene, not to whine about class balance.