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Posted by: Winter.1475

Winter.1475

…and why it’s annoying to fight but not competitive.

Arken asked me to post this here:

He also asked me to say that while he didn’t mention this in the video, Spear of Justice needs a slight nerf because the cast time is too short.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

“If you have a class that doesn’t receive representation in the highest tier of play, nerfing it doesn’t make much sense.”

F1 doesn’t meed a nerf. Nothing on DH needs a nerf, but the entire class should be changed. Same goes for Engi, Ranger, Rev, Necro, Ele.

HoT powercreep is ridiculous, matchmaking needs reworked, and certain team compositions are very unbalanced.

aka FalseLights
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Posted by: Lord Hammer Hand.4815

Lord Hammer Hand.4815

i have to agree on youre point its very low skill bar, on par with MM necro, turret Engi’s, and spirit build ranger back in the day. very easy to play but lack representation in higher game play. w/ that being said should it needs a nerf? i would say no. but what happen to all those build i mention comparing to DH today?… well they got nerf.

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Posted by: phokus.8934

phokus.8934

Maybe next time he can turn off the background music…

His argument is coming off as an elitist. A “brain dead” build doesn’t mean it’s overpowered in anyway. Who cares if it’s easy to play and somewhat forgiving? This game isn’t entirely built around pulling off amazing micro combos.

DH offers nothing for team play that isn’t better from another class. They could nerf some aspects of the class but compensation elsewhere would be needed to move it into somewhat ESL viability.

Unless something drastically changes, don’t expect to see DHs as part of the tournament meta. You’ll have to wait until the next expansion to see what their next elite is.

I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.

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Posted by: Solstace.2514

Solstace.2514

Comparing high tier / viability to regular soloQ matches is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. There are some builds that are far more effective in the hands of an elite and organized team, but will perform miserably in solo Q and vice versa. When talking about balance, using only the highest tier is shortsighted.

Most people in thIs game are not playing at high tier level on an ESL team. I suspect the vast majority of us either soloQ or queue up with a friend or two. I spec my builds not to rely on other players but to function independently. I suspect if I routinely played on an organized team, I’d play a different style.

So tl;dr it’s possible for builds to be both OP and underpowered depending on the situation.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

“If you have a class that doesn’t receive representation in the highest tier of play, nerfing it doesn’t make much sense.”

F1 doesn’t meed a nerf. Nothing on DH needs a nerf, but the entire class should be changed. Same goes for Engi, Ranger, Rev, Necro, Ele.

HoT powercreep is ridiculous, matchmaking needs reworked, and certain team compositions are very unbalanced.

This is the part where you put “as a DH main” or “as someone who plays DH” because that way we all know your bias up front. Or was it a different DH named Säiyan that I played last night?

Think about Warrior F1; much slower, requires buildup of adrenaline, but very strong when it hits. Skull Grinder for example requires melee range, is blockable, and casts in 1/2s. DH F1 on the other hand has 1200 range, casts in 1/4 second, and has a CC, burns and cripples, pierces, and is unblockable… what? That is the definition of power creep Even Warrior’s longbow F1 has 1200 range, but has no CC, casts in 3/4s and you have to get your enemy to sit still inside the fire field. Not something they’re likely to do with a weapon as conspicuous and slow-casting as longbow.

I play DH casually and I don’t think it needs huge nerfs, but Spear of Justice is too easy and has too many effects compared to other F1 abilities. Even mesmers, fragile as they are, have to be in melee range of an enemy to get full use out of a shatter. Take a step back and think about how kitten easy it makes the profession that SoJ does so many things from 1200 range with a 1/4 casting time. It should require better timing to land it, or at least be blockable. On the other hand it should do much more damage, its current power damage is low and it actually lends itself more to a burn guard.

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Posted by: Erzian.5218

Erzian.5218

plot twist: it is a utility skill like thief steal, not a damage skill like warrior f1.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

plot twist: it is a utility skill like thief steal, not a damage skill like warrior f1.

Considering there’s an actual definition of utility skill, slot skills 6-10, you might wanna rephrase. SoJ is a profession mechanic, not a utility. Yes, Warrior F1 does more damage on some weapons, but overall it is much more difficult to land and requires a chargeup. Steal should not have even entered the discussion as Thieves are barely in the meta (meaning they need OP prof mechanics to be relevant) and DH are on top (meaning they do not need OP prof mechanics).

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Posted by: Rigante.2470

Rigante.2470

Comparing high tier / viability to regular soloQ matches is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. There are some builds that are far more effective in the hands of an elite and organized team, but will perform miserably in solo Q and vice versa. When talking about balance, using only the highest tier is shortsighted.

Most people in thIs game are not playing at high tier level on an ESL team. I suspect the vast majority of us either soloQ or queue up with a friend or two. I spec my builds not to rely on other players but to function independently. I suspect if I routinely played on an organized team, I’d play a different style.

So tl;dr it’s possible for builds to be both OP and underpowered depending on the situation.

No by itself its nothing special at any level of play. At lower levels of play when there are multiple DH on one side it can be a big problem because of the stacked aoe and the potential for extreme sandbagging and insta gibs.

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

F1 does need some counterplay it needs to be slower or blockable.

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Posted by: Erzian.5218

Erzian.5218

plot twist: it is a utility skill like thief steal, not a damage skill like warrior f1.

Considering there’s an actual definition of utility skill, slot skills 6-10, you might wanna rephrase. SoJ is a profession mechanic, not a utility. Yes, Warrior F1 does more damage on some weapons, but overall it is much more difficult to land and requires a chargeup. Steal should not have even entered the discussion as Thieves are barely in the meta (meaning they need OP prof mechanics to be relevant) and DH are on top (meaning they do not need OP prof mechanics).

Yes, leave thief out of the discussion because its barely part of the meta. Remind me again of the representation of warrior at the last wts.

(edited by Erzian.5218)

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

Or representation of dh in wts

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Posted by: Erzian.5218

Erzian.5218

Or that the link can be broken by moving out of range and that stability or invulnerable can be used to avoid the pull. Or that the skill only deals around ~2k damage on Marauder amulet even if the link is not broken.

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Posted by: ThatNAESLGuard.6238

ThatNAESLGuard.6238

Nerf honor GM trait
/thread

Darek.1836

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

Fair enough. If you think it’s important to compare Steal and SoJ:

Steal
* Is thief’s only profession mechanic, not including the stolen weapon.
* Instacast
* Teleports (without interrupting current action) to opponent if they’re 1200 away or closer

  • Does no damage
  • “Steals” a weapon of varying usefulness; Warr weapon is very useful with Pistol 5, Engi weapon is only useful on downed foes, and even then…
  • Can be traited to add a number of VERY useful effects; however, most of these lie in Trickery, which is not very useful aside from buffing Steal. The extra initiative is useful for PP or Staff thieves, is not necessary for D/P thieves. The most interesting Steal traits, such as Daze, Stealth, Endurance gain, and direct damage all lie in different trait lines.

While everyone will take DD for its general usefulness, Trickery is taken specifically because of Steal, meaning that you have to dedicate an entire trait line to making Steal so OP. If Steal were useful without traiting then Thieves would take some combination of DD, Deadly Arts, Shadow Arts, and Critical Strikes. Now let’s look at Spear of Justice:

SoJ

  • Is one of 3 DH profession mechanics, each with different uses (offense, healing, defense)
  • Passive effect (applies burning every 5th attack)
  • Active effects:
  • 1/4 second cast
  • 1200 range
  • Small direct damage
  • Short burning and cripple that reapplies itself every second (can’t be cleaned)
  • Pierces (can affect more than one person)
  • Unblockable
  • Can be traited to apply 10s vulnerability when target is tethered and increase damage to them by 10%, apply cripple on passive effect and increase damage to crippled by 10%, and to have passive effect reapply more frequently, apply might and retaliation, and have area burning effect.

All traiting options for SoJ lie in 2 Trait lines, DH and Virtues. Like DD, everyone takes DH. Virtues is more optional.

Similarities

  • Can deal damage
  • Can be traited to have CC (pull on Hunter’s Verdict, Daze from Sleight of Hand)
  • Can apply boons
  • Activate at range (different from ranged attack)
  • Can apply condition(s)

Differences

  • Steal requires movement to target (meaning it forces trigger of marks and traps).
  • Steal can steal boons
  • Steal can grant stealth
  • Steal’s recharge can be reduced more than SoJ’s
  • Steal can be blocked
  • SoJ applies damage and conditions without traiting; Steal needs traits for both.
  • SoJ has passive and active effects.
  • SoJ deals damage on activation and over time, Steal is only on activation.
  • Possible to have full traiting of SoJ and other professions mechanics (virtues) in one build

I’ve left out some, such as the trait that gives initiative for Steal.

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

“Steal

  • Is thief’s only profession mechanic, not including the stolen weapon.
  • Instacast
  • Teleports (without interrupting current action) to opponent if they’re 1200 away or closer"

Steal, initiative, augmented weapon skill 1 in stealth, stolen skill are thief mechanics.
Teleported skill is not a mechanic. It is simply how the skills usage cues.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

“Steal

  • Is thief’s only profession mechanic, not including the stolen weapon.
  • Instacast
  • Teleports (without interrupting current action) to opponent if they’re 1200 away or closer"

Steal, initiative, augmented weapon skill 1 in stealth, stolen skill are thief mechanics.
Teleported skill is not a mechanic. It is simply how the skills usage cues.

Can you explain your last two sentences a bit more clearly? Also “augmented weapon skill 1 in stealth” is not really intelligible, Steal doesn’t augment/alter existing weapons and stealth is neither a profession mechanic nor exclusive to thief. I’m really trying to understand what you’re saying.

I have not claimed that individual effects that Steal has, such as teleports, are all profession mechanics. Profession mechanics sometimes do things that regular skills can also do, like Skull Crack damaging and causing Stun. Skull Crack is a profession mechanic, Stun and damage are not. See the difference?

(edited by Huskyboy.1053)

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

Ah I just understood what you meant, stealth attack. Yes, that is a unique profession mechanic. That being said, the discussion is about comparing F1 abilities, should I also talk about how DH have the biggest trap radius, can trait Daze on their traps, unmatched access to aegis, etc.? You’re not incorrect, but including EVERYTHING that makes the classes different is a totally different discussion than comparing SoJ and Stealth. Please start a new thread if you want to compare the professions as a whole.

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Posted by: kdaddy.5431

kdaddy.5431

Sorry had to quit watching when he kept repeating that guardian is slow, no mobilty etc etc for 2 minutes.

Also lets just cut it to whats the problem, build diversity in HOT.

Pre HOT shout guardian (best bunker/support in game), burn guardian (best condi burst in game), dps medi guardian (really good in ranked que)

3 builds that were useful in the game. HOT comes in and kills it, with raids being the focal point of the game. Do you even believe that anet cares about PvP balance?

If you main guardian, thief, warrior and want to be in ESL i guess its like the raid comments in the forums " ESL isnt meant for everyone" which is basically saying go **** yourself.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

the discussion is about comparing F1 abilities, should I also talk about how DH have the biggest trap radius, can trait Daze on their traps, unmatched access to aegis, etc.?

And every power ability on Rev is an Evade frame, while DH only utilizes 1 stun damaging trap on their utility bar.

Everything you mentioned about F1 (burns are laughable) is more of a nuisance than some kind of high damaging(it’s not), overpowered ability. It’s a CC that’s best for pulling off obvious combos. Stand alone, it’s hands down one of the bottom tier Function abilities in the game.

If it was 50% than the current 70% hit rate, it’ll revert back to trash like it was post-HoT. There’s a reason why Anet increased its hit rate.

Ken got it right, DH is annoying in the bottom tiers, problematic in amber leagues and barely a viable 5th pick in the ESL.

aka FalseLights
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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

the discussion is about comparing F1 abilities, should I also talk about how DH have the biggest trap radius, can trait Daze on their traps, unmatched access to aegis, etc.?

And every power ability on Rev is an Evade frame, while DH only utilizes 1 stun damaging trap on their utility bar.

Everything you mentioned about F1 (burns are laughable) is more of a nuisance than some kind of high damaging(it’s not), overpowered ability. It’s a CC that’s best for pulling off obvious combos. Stand alone, it’s hands down one of the bottom tier Function abilities in the game.

If it was 50% than the current 70% hit rate, it’ll revert back to trash like it was post-HoT. There’s a reason why Anet increased its hit rate.

Ken got it right, DH is annoying in the bottom tiers, problematic in amber leagues and barely a viable 5th pick in the ESL.

Burn guard says otherwise. If you don’t trait for it, it’s laughable, if you do, it’s not. It’s literally the most damaging condition being applied passively and constantly, idk what’s laughable about that. DH even has 2 teleports (Sword 2, Judge’s Intervention) and cripple to keep people within the1200 leash range. But anyways what’s OP about it is essentially the combination of 1/4 cast and unblockability. Go ahead and find another F1 that does that. Increase cast or make it blockable and I think it’s fine, I don’t want to see DH nerfed into the ground but it needs to be changed to a more skillful profession.

As for the Rev evade frame thing, firstly that’s a huge exaggeration (sign of a bad argument), but also… do they have Aegis? Not even. They do have very obvious blocks that have far less uptime than DH Aegis + F3. Less AoE by far, can’t double-lay their utilities like a bunker trap guard can. No good ranged weapon like longbow or scepter. Horrific condi cleanse, and what they have in place (Glint heal) has a short duration and long cooldown. The list goes on. This is partly a function of the fact that rev was made from scratch a year ago as opposed to Guard being years old, but you can’t really claim that power Rev has the same 1v1 sustain with the meta build.

I’ve seen you defending meta DH all over the forums, which means you’ve seen the million threads dedicated to meta DH hate. Again, I don’t want it nerfed into the ground either, but you might consider actually looking at the class critically and trying to figure out how to change it in ways that don’t kill the class but make it more difficult to use. Blockable or longer-casting SoJ isn’t exactly a huge nerf, I’d expect that someone with your level of experience can handle it. And if you can handle it, why bring up red herrings like Rev evade frames?

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Posted by: Kuya.6495

Kuya.6495

Saiyan has posted multiple suggestions on what to nerf on guard and even made threads about it. He’s been more constructive than all the DH complainers combined.

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

the discussion is about comparing F1 abilities, should I also talk about how DH have the biggest trap radius, can trait Daze on their traps, unmatched access to aegis, etc.?

And every power ability on Rev is an Evade frame, while DH only utilizes 1 stun damaging trap on their utility bar.

Everything you mentioned about F1 (burns are laughable) is more of a nuisance than some kind of high damaging(it’s not), overpowered ability. It’s a CC that’s best for pulling off obvious combos. Stand alone, it’s hands down one of the bottom tier Function abilities in the game.

If it was 50% than the current 70% hit rate, it’ll revert back to trash like it was post-HoT. There’s a reason why Anet increased its hit rate.

Ken got it right, DH is annoying in the bottom tiers, problematic in amber leagues and barely a viable 5th pick in the ESL.

Burn guard says otherwise. If you don’t trait for it, it’s laughable, if you do, it’s not. It’s literally the most damaging condition being applied passively and constantly,

As for the Rev evade frame thing, firstly that’s a huge exaggeration (sign of a bad argument), but also… do they have Aegis?

I’m not arguing that DH doesn’t need a change. The class needs to be more skillful for sure but you’re asking for a direct nerf when it needs a mechanical change. That’s me looking at the class critically. If you want that in more detail, create a thread in the DH forums and i’ll reply.

A poor argument is warranting F1’s prowess by bringing up a bad, unviable build like Condi Guard… when we’re talking about Power DH. Makes no sense.

If you think Rev can’t self sustain longer than DH… gosh, don’t have anything else to say.

aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
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(edited by Saiyan.1704)

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

The second part of F1 pull simply needs to be evadeable. It can remain unblockable but shouldn’t interrupt one’s evade.

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Posted by: Huskyboy.1053

Huskyboy.1053

I’m not arguing that DH doesn’t need a change. The class needs to be more skillful for sure but you’re asking for a direct nerf when it needs a mechanical change. That’s me looking at the class critically. If you want that in more detail, create a thread in the DH forums and i’ll reply.

A poor argument is warranting F1’s prowess by bringing up a bad, unviable build like Condi Guard… when we’re talking about Power DH. Makes no sense.

If you think Rev can’t self sustain longer than DH… gosh, don’t have anything else to say.

Condi guard is not unviable, but I doubt you’ll be convinced of that. Anyways, if you could clear up the difference between “direct nerf” and “mechanical change” then I’ll go ahead and make that thread..

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Posted by: Saiyan.1704

Saiyan.1704

I’m not arguing that DH doesn’t need a change. The class needs to be more skillful for sure but you’re asking for a direct nerf when it needs a mechanical change. That’s me looking at the class critically. If you want that in more detail, create a thread in the DH forums and i’ll reply.

A poor argument is warranting F1’s prowess by bringing up a bad, unviable build like Condi Guard… when we’re talking about Power DH. Makes no sense.

If you think Rev can’t self sustain longer than DH… gosh, don’t have anything else to say.

Condi guard is not unviable, but I doubt you’ll be convinced of that. Anyways, if you could clear up the difference between “direct nerf” and “mechanical change” then I’ll go ahead and make that thread..

I’m speaking competitively but sure, a person can make almost any build work with dedication; assuming reaching Legendary with 300 games at a low w/l ratio is “winning”. Helseth mentioned similiar points in his solo/duo video.

Mechanically, much like how Engineers were changed prepatch; when Engi damages were allocated rather than just lowered. It wasn’t a direct nerf to the class as there was compensations.

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Posted by: Aitadis.8269

Aitadis.8269

This video was made around the start of season 4, when few if anyone had reached legend by then. 4DH team demolishes us, our dragonhunter died instantly in the mid fight when we had the advantage with +1, it was a 4v3 in our favor and we lost. The guardians had no skill too, they sat on points all game and I woulda won the 2v1 at the end against the thief/dh had the game not finished. Idk how to fix DH because I sorta agree that you see very few good quality DH’s in higher play, but they are currently roflstomping anyone that isn’t above average in pvp right now.

Also idk how I didnt avoid the spear of justice at 5:17 in this vid, as a result I lost 11k HP in 1 second.

Illusionary Mesmer
[oof] Crystal Desert

(edited by Aitadis.8269)

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Posted by: Erzian.5218

Erzian.5218

You could have used distortion once you were hit by it. Either before getting pulled to avoid almost all of the damage or before blinking through test of faith or simply not blink through test of faith at all.
You could also have blinked straight away when hit instead of after the pull. That way the link would have broken and he could not have pulled you.

(edited by Erzian.5218)

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Posted by: LucianTheAngelic.7054

LucianTheAngelic.7054

This video was made around the start of season 4, when few if anyone had reached legend by then. 4DH team demolishes us, our dragonhunter died instantly in the mid fight when we had the advantage with +1, it was a 4v3 in our favor and we lost. The guardians had no skill too, they sat on points all game and I woulda won the 2v1 at the end against the thief/dh had the game not finished. Idk how to fix DH because I sorta agree that you see very few good quality DH’s in higher play, but they are currently roflstomping anyone that isn’t above average in pvp right now.

Also idk how I didnt avoid the spear of justice at 5:17 in this vid, as a result I lost 11k HP in 1 second.

You seriously want to use this as proof that DH is overpowered? Your team’s Elementalist rage quit 2:30 into the match when you guys were only down 60 points. I can’t take anything in this video seriously because it was a 5v4. Not only that but your team had 2 mesmers against 4 DHs and no classes able to hold a point against that comp. This proves absolutely nothing.

(edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054)

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Posted by: Aitadis.8269

Aitadis.8269

This video was made around the start of season 4, when few if anyone had reached legend by then. 4DH team demolishes us, our dragonhunter died instantly in the mid fight when we had the advantage with +1, it was a 4v3 in our favor and we lost. The guardians had no skill too, they sat on points all game and I woulda won the 2v1 at the end against the thief/dh had the game not finished. Idk how to fix DH because I sorta agree that you see very few good quality DH’s in higher play, but they are currently roflstomping anyone that isn’t above average in pvp right now.

Also idk how I didnt avoid the spear of justice at 5:17 in this vid, as a result I lost 11k HP in 1 second.

You seriously want to use this as proof that DH is overpowered? Your team’s Elementalist rage quit 2:30 into the match when you guys were only down 60 points. I can’t take anything in this video seriously because it was a 5v4. Not only that but your team had 2 mesmers against 4 DHs and no classes able to hold a point against that comp. This proves absolutely nothing.

Maybe he rage quit because we lost a 4v3 in mid against 3 of the same class? I called it before gates even opened the GG twice in map/team chat because I had seen this all season, 3 or 4 dragonhunters on the same team win, and he probably realized it too after mid fight.

As for the double mesmer comment, mesmers fair just fine against DH, especially when the DH’s are as bad as the ones in that video. The only time I was under any kind of pressure was at the start because I had to go for resses on teamates and I got 2/3 off. The one res I was unable to get off was on the necro when I took 10k passive dmg instantly while the enemy DH was feared by the downstate necro. I couldnt distortion res either btw because I had to use that to get the stomp off on the enemy DH just prior.

Entire rest of the match I was under no pressure and given a bit more time I would have won those 1v1 fights, but that’s the current state of DH, is to be able to sustain like that. The whole reason I decided to record that match was because I already knew what the outcome was going to be because I had seen it all season, granted I thought we would have done at least a bit better…

Illusionary Mesmer
[oof] Crystal Desert

(edited by Aitadis.8269)

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Posted by: Aitadis.8269

Aitadis.8269

I think the best way to fix this would be to increase the radius of point nodes so that you aren’t forced to sit in traps and other AoE to contest a node, they have always been too small if you ask me.

Illusionary Mesmer
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