Guild Wars 2

The age ole gw2 issue of passive vs active play.

Of course passive play isn’t bad just not when its that that drives combat.

And while Gw2 has the best combat formula the amount of skill it takes to dish out damage vs the amount of available ways to avoid that damage is just at a bad ratio.

So to stem that problem i suggest we look at number 1 skills. Auto attacks.

I believe auto attacks are great design, keeps the gameplay fluid and fun, and is a great way to see your passive damage especially when most MMO just let autos be done on their own.

Now that is the good the bad is that if you take a player who has been playing for an entire year, is a pvp king, and plays for hours each day and put him/her next to someone who just started, looked up a build online and is in their first game 80% of their game play (laying on auto attack dmg) is going to be the same. Which in my eyes, isn’t good design.

Now I don’t believe that in flat out lowering auto attack damage its a fun mechanic but currently doesn’t require any thought.

I believe that Auto attacks should be reworked to be 3 part attacks (maybe 4 part in some cases, like thief dagger)
- The first two attacks should have their damage reduced by roughly about 25% of what they currently are, as well as losing any addition effect that it has
- Though the last 3rd attack should be given a cast time (such as Guardian hammer) have its damage increased roughly 12 %and be given the combined additional effects of what all 3 attacks currently have

Simply put. All autos would be made into a 3 or 4 part series (like many of them are now), with the last attack being slower, easier to dodge, cancel able, and very powerful.

What will this do

1st it will reduce auto attacks damage overall but still make this feel fun and powerful
-By roughly reducing auto attack damage by about 12% overall fights and gameplay will be extended but still be fun by having a big painful attack string with the increased 3rd attack

2nd it will add a big chance for counterplay in fights
-Fighting any hammer guard you can always see his last most painful auto attack coming so it just takes avoiding that damage to mitigate his attack. Whereas trying to stop the damaging autos from lets say a thief, necro, or ranger is pointless if not wasteful, Because by dodging auto you really only stop about 2 attacks and set yourself up to be just hit with the next ones since its so passive

3rd it will make skills such as block, dodge, aegis, and other single time mitigations important.
-How often do you play a warrior, mesmer, Guard, ect and have a single time melee block and just see it wasted on almost nothing? I’m pretty sure all the time. With this change by seeing the attack coming and being casted you can set up counterplay and with a quick reaction you can not only stop big damage but also turn it into an advantage

4th the attacker can use more skill in landing his attacks
-As a person who also plays hammer guard to land my 3rd auto attack. Or many of my castable attacks for that matter i find myself canceling many attacks to get my enemy to waste a dodge roll and recast it before the timer resets so i can guarantee and land. And i find it very balanced and this sort of play should be set across the board.

5th It wouldn’t effect PvE/WvW gameplay too much
-of course lowering the overall dmg of autos by 12% would have a big impact on every part of combat but not so much in a way that it would change the game. And i for one am slightly against a big split between pve and pvp (i think it being so far from the main game is the reason PvP sees so little attention

6th people would really have to pay attention
-Even as a thief my goal when i’m not in stealth is to make sure i’m landing my autos not really making sure that i’m behind or beside my target. With this change thieves and rangers who are position dependent and what their damage to land like it should will really have to focus on their 3rd attack.

7th a psuedo nerf to the condition meta
-And my favorite, because so much of the condi meta is reapplication rate especially though a blanket of auto attacks, with this change all classes would have to take care not to miss their 3rd attack with all their conditions on them because being then being able to dodge and cleanse would let classes have a chance at surviving applications and condis

8th WvW wouldn’t be so zerg train-y
-Auto attack trains are normal for WvW but with this change their trains wouldn’t just destroy anyone in their way (well less than before) so while still doing insane amounts of dmg they would actually have to fight each other instead of number just rolling the others

Alright i could go on about the benefits all night but i really want to hear the devs/communities thoughts on this!

YES!! This is exactly what I’ve been saying.

Making EVERY auto attack in the game a 3 part chain with a large portion of the dmg (or “reward”) placed on the third attack such as guardian hammer, it would add a lot of “risk” to high dmg auto attacks, it forces you to COMMIT to get that dmg off, instead of spamming high NO-RISK dmg nonstop with no punishment for it.

And if you ever aren’t able to commit to a full chain auto, then you do small filler dmg (and maybe some utility) from the first 2 parts, which fills it’s role.

Take Ranger Shortbow for example, it could be :

Chain 1 – Small dmg and applies weakness (or vuln, or cripple, or 1 second poison, etc)

Chain 2 – Small dmg, same thing

Chain 3 – 1.5 second channel, fires 4 moderate dmg rapid shots that apply 5s bleeding.

It would also make it much more interesting/satisfying to use, that’s for sure.

And this may not be very popular, but having more short cast time/channels that immobilize you for high benefit would be nice. Imagine more skills that are like bit sized versions of Killshot. It’s nice to be zipping around constantly and all, but sitting still for 1.5 seconds to get off a really nice hit once in a while in between is super satisfying IMO.

I’m taking a lot of this “satisfying” experience from Dragon Nest TBH. The combat there is insanely satisfying lol, this game could borrow a few things from it.

yes i agree with this, autoattacks are too powerfull on most professions… they should be just a timefiller when other hard attacks are on cooldown, not main source of spam… oh i mean dmg… because game is about dodging and timing, autoattacks just demote that… look at for example shortbow ranger, so unfun spec with zero skill, just stay and autoattack and sometimes accidentaly press some other button :/ thats bad design :/

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

Knote.2904:

YES!! This is exactly what I’ve been saying.

Making EVERY auto attack in the game a 3 part chain with a large portion of the dmg (or “reward”) placed on the third attack such as guardian hammer, it would add a lot of “risk” to high dmg auto attacks, it forces you to COMMIT to get that dmg off, instead of spamming high NO-RISK dmg nonstop with no punishment for it.

And if you ever aren’t able to commit to a full chain auto, then you do small filler dmg (and maybe some utility) from the first 2 parts, which fills it’s role.

Take Ranger Shortbow for example, it could be :

Chain 1 – Small dmg and applies weakness (or vuln, or cripple, or 1 second poison, etc)

Chain 2 – Small dmg, same thing

Chain 3 – 1.5 second channel, fires 4 moderate dmg rapid shots that apply 5s bleeding.

It would also make it much more interesting/satisfying to use, that’s for sure.

And this may not be very popular, but having more short cast time/channels that immobilize you for high benefit would be nice. Imagine more skills that are like bit sized versions of Killshot. It’s nice to be zipping around constantly and all, but sitting still for 1.5 seconds to get off a really nice hit once in a while in between is super satisfying IMO.

I’m taking a lot of this “satisfying” experience from Dragon Nest TBH. The combat there is insanely satisfying lol, this game could borrow a few things from it.

Sounds like really good ideas. And a way to open up ways for some classes who are constantly mobile to be damaged. Though some classes (mainly light and medium) if they are forced to stand still to layout counter damage vs heavy melee classes (mainly engis and necros) might be destroyed. So that kinda change would need to be watched very carefully. Though i do think of having more skills like kill shot, metor storm, guard hammer 5, would be much better for gameplay. Maybe not have a self root for autos? but for more damaging skills

MaXi.3642:

yes i agree with this, autoattacks are too powerfull on most professions… they should be just a timefiller when other hard attacks are on cooldown, not main source of spam… oh i mean dmg… because game is about dodging and timing, autoattacks just demote that… look at for example shortbow ranger, so unfun spec with zero skill, just stay and autoattack and sometimes accidentaly press some other button :/ thats bad design :/

Well auto attacks themself i don’t think are bad design i mean if you’ve played other MMOs quite a bit of your damage is from auto attacks and to do that you
-Right click on target
- Move next to it (if you’re melee)
-Wait…..
Now that i believe is bad design
GW2s is fun, fast paced and very action oriented

Just for most classes their most damaging string of attacks. Is just being able to lay on 1. And their auto attacks don’t leave room for counterplay. This would remedy both of those issues. 1 allowing the overall damage of auto attacks to be lowered (and possibly have other skills buffed) as well as allowing actual action to be put back into auto attacks (yea that is like an oxymoron)

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

Not that i totally disagree with you. But Gw2 isn’t an mmo where you have 8 hot bars, like 88 skills, 10 extra hot bars of skills on top of that, as well kitten macros just to get though combat. It takes the core skills you’ll need in a fight, combines them, allows you to make actually different builds from it, and then places the action in your hands. And one of those ways is though auto attack damage. And i personally find auto attacks fun.

Because believe it or not auto attacks do a lot of your damage normally in games (look at the over all dam contribution of Ranger and necro pets.)

And I for one, don’t want to see all damage being put into skill because seeing more damage off of skills like heartseaker, or rapid shot, or things like 100 blades being buffed as well as found more ways of lands (to make up for losing auto attacks) just doesn’t sound like fun and being bursted down all the time would make for a lot of QQ

MaXi.3642:

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

well, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t turn off auto-attack completely as various other MMOs have done it, to great success, eg: Rift.

mjharrison.3209:

MaXi.3642:

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

well, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t turn off auto-attack completely as various other MMOs have done it, to great success, eg: Rift.

Other MMO’s still have filler spam skills though, even Rift.

Even if “auto attack” didn’t have an “auto cast” function anymore, that wouldn’t change anything.

Knote.2904:

mjharrison.3209:

MaXi.3642:

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

well, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t turn off auto-attack completely as various other MMOs have done it, to great success, eg: Rift.

Other MMO’s still have filler spam skills though, even Rift.

Even if “auto attack” didn’t have an “auto cast” function anymore, that wouldn’t change anything.

It would if they also changed it to where the attack chain didn’t reset when it didn’t hit anything so it was just a combo of swings. For instance think of a giant hulking Berserker. He has a mighty hammer. He swings to the left with all his might, then to the right, then with that momentum lifts the hammer and slams down on the ground before him. Just because his left swing didn’t land on anything he wouldn’t just give up and keep swinging left.

Additionally; all duel-wield #1 combo chains need to change and add in off-hand effects. Like the second swing of 3 with Dual axes versus Axe+sword would be different and be swung with the offhand.

ronpierce.2760:

Knote.2904:

mjharrison.3209:

MaXi.3642:

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

well, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t turn off auto-attack completely as various other MMOs have done it, to great success, eg: Rift.

Other MMO’s still have filler spam skills though, even Rift.

Even if “auto attack” didn’t have an “auto cast” function anymore, that wouldn’t change anything.

It would if they also changed it to where the attack chain didn’t reset when it didn’t hit anything so it was just a combo of swings. For instance think of a giant hulking Berserker. He has a mighty hammer. He swings to the left with all his might, then to the right, then with that momentum lifts the hammer and slams down on the ground before him. Just because his left swing didn’t land on anything he wouldn’t just give up and keep swinging left.

Additionally; all duel-wield #1 combo chains need to change and add in off-hand effects. Like the second swing of 3 with Dual axes versus Axe+sword would be different and be swung with the offhand.

Yes but the chain doesn’t matter as much as it should.

And there are autos that don’t have ANY chain.

Knote.2904:

ronpierce.2760:

Knote.2904:

mjharrison.3209:

MaXi.3642:

mjharrison.3209:

couldn’t disagree more. Auto-attacks are terrible design, and one of the key reasons why this game is so spammy and unappealing to watch.

The game needs more aimed abilities/skill shots if anything… too much stuff is auto-aimed.

well, you cant remove autoattack completely and this is one of the solutions how to make them less spammy, easier to avoid their main dmg and overall make them less valuable

well, there’s no technical reason they couldn’t turn off auto-attack completely as various other MMOs have done it, to great success, eg: Rift.

Other MMO’s still have filler spam skills though, even Rift.

Even if “auto attack” didn’t have an “auto cast” function anymore, that wouldn’t change anything.

It would if they also changed it to where the attack chain didn’t reset when it didn’t hit anything so it was just a combo of swings. For instance think of a giant hulking Berserker. He has a mighty hammer. He swings to the left with all his might, then to the right, then with that momentum lifts the hammer and slams down on the ground before him. Just because his left swing didn’t land on anything he wouldn’t just give up and keep swinging left.

Additionally; all duel-wield #1 combo chains need to change and add in off-hand effects. Like the second swing of 3 with Dual axes versus Axe+sword would be different and be swung with the offhand.

Yes but the chain doesn’t matter as much as it should.

And there are autos that don’t have ANY chain.

That’s why you change some stuff for the better of the game. Its not a dead-end issue, the developers might have to develop a bit.