Guild Wars 2

For clarification: “Auto-balancing” occurs when one team in structured PvP has least two more players than the opposing team. A pane will appear on the user interfaces of each player representing the team containing the most participants, asking if they would like to volunteer to change sides. Ten seconds later, players are shifted in an attempt to lessen the disparity between teams.

When your team has the player advantage, would you volunteer to switch teams? Not many would.

The issue this creates (an issue I’m sure many of us have experienced at one point or another) is as follows: A player can spend the majority of a match representing a team— Capturing nodes, killing opponents, tending to secondary objectives, etc., only to be relocated prior to reaching that coveted 500th point. All effort exerted leading up to this point has, in reality, gone towards securing the player’s loss rather than victory.

So what can be done?

The simple answer is to implement some brand of penalty applying to those who choose to leave a match before it ends. The penalty itself can be a variety of things ranging from disallowing the player to re-queue for a set duration, to limiting the valor acquired in the player’s next match. This way, players will less often opt out of an SPvP match midway and reduce the need for the auto-balancing feature.

What would you change to accomplish this?

The simple answer is to have a queue system like every game ever instead of a server browser. Just take someone from the queue and throw them into a low-pop game.

Penalizing leavers is draconian and will do nothing to solve the problem. If they’re not going to implement a queue, then just take the lowest score player (or person who has been in the game for the least amount of time) and swap them.

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

I sympathize with your concerns OP, but like Xahz I think your solution is not appropriate. I don’t understand why we have this “server browser” interface to “just get me into akittengame”, particularly when lopsided team player counts (even by 1 player) have such a strong impact on team success. I’d prefer a system that by default inserts players into teams that need people, and only if you really must do so, you can search for a particular server to join. What we have now instead is a system that tempts players first into joining any server they can click on, and has a small “play now” queue button in the bottom left of the server browser, which is backwards imo.

Probably the simplest solution that would have the greatest effect on this problem is a super obvious “play now” button (such as always on the right of the screen in gw1 random arenas) that 99% of people could click on without moving an inch in heart of the mists, and retain the “server browser” npc if people want to select a specific server for other reasons (like attempting to play with friends on a particular server or whatever).

I agree with the last two posts. Either make it a queue system by default OR take away the benefits of Winning. I would also suggest lowering the points obtained from kills from 5 to 1. That way the game becomes even more focused on capturing points and getting other players out of them by any means necessary and even less emphasis on running around zerging the map looking for kills. This would make point defending/capping more rewarding as well, at least in feeling anyway.

There should also be glory rewarded for amount of time spent inside captured points for people who actually defend. Often times people don’t stick around captured points because they are missing out on glory but actually securing objectives, which seems a little antagonistic to the whole goal of the maps.

If this increases glory gain per match, the simplest solution would be to increase cost of vendors.

Since I’m adding suggestions still, I’ll add one more and say remove glory sharing between characters as well as Rank; but that is just a personal preference, and I think it would give people more reason to pvp with other professions if they wanted more bragging rights or something.

Xahz.8406:

If they’re not going to implement a queue, then just take the lowest score player (or person who has been in the game for the least amount of time) and swap them.

I like this a lot.

Chesire.9043:

I agree with the last two posts. Either make it a queue system by default OR take away the benefits of Winning. I would also suggest lowering the points obtained from kills from 5 to 1. That way the game becomes even more focused on capturing points and getting other players out of them by any means necessary and even less emphasis on running around zerging the map looking for kills. This would make point defending/capping more rewarding as well, at least in feeling anyway.

There should also be glory rewarded for amount of time spent inside captured points for people who actually defend. Often times people don’t stick around captured points because they are missing out on glory but actually securing objectives, which seems a little antagonistic to the whole goal of the maps.

I agree with this. sPvP doesn’t feel very structured at all when it’s nothing but a giant zergfest and you get nothing from defending points unless you kill someone while defending, which is really hard to do since if you defend your generally alone and then get zerg rolled by 4+ members of the opposing team.

It does also get irritating when you’ve played a game and gotten tons of points and helped your team say get up to 400 points to 200 and then the enemies rage-quit because they are losing and it’s like, oh you did work for this team well here, have a free loss by being swapped over.

There definitely needs to be some adjustments. It’s very odd to join a match right at the end and have 10 Glory for your effort just to wait around for a match where your team (having just lost 153 to 500) is probably not going to rally just because you’ve shown up.

Quick play being quick is fine enough but a “queue for fresh match” option or something wouldn’t be a terrible thing to have alongside the server browser.

Go play tPvP if you want perfect games. sPvP is simply for fast pvp games with randoms and is supposed to be easily accessible, which it currently is.

Sure, it’s annoying when I can a last minute auto-rebalance, but it happens once a session max and that isn’t enough to warrant changing the current system.

I do agree the ‘play now’ button needs to weigh up the amount of games with less than 10 players and start to prioritise them until they have 5v5, and then look to topping up the other games.

It seems like an easy enough thing to remedy, Sol. At least by principle.

It is a feature used very frequently and the reasons to implement a change heavily outweigh the reasons not to in my humble opinion.

Sol.3296:

Sure, it’s annoying when I can a last minute auto-rebalance, but it happens once a session max and that isn’t enough to warrant changing the current system.

Funny you say once a session max, happens to me on a regular basis, just got done with a game where i was on a team that was up by 200 points got swapped to the other team, came back was winning on that team and got team swapped again, twice in the same game. Both times fighting to defend a point the team i was on currently controlled.

Two things that might help this. First, point out to players when they leave that they are not getting their accumulated glory for the match (since it doesn’t give it to you until the game is over… at least I’m pretty sure that’s how it works). Just a message popping up saying ‘You will lose out on 40 glory by leaving now. Are you sure?’ would probably get a lot of rage quitters to reconsider. You don’t have to penalize them at all, just point out what they’re already missing out on by leaving.

Second, when an imbalance still happens regardless, give a glory boost for switching sides, which increases based on the current score of the game, so late game switches right before your former team wins won’t be so terribly painful. Maybe even give a tiny amount, like 5 points, for even volunteering to switch, then a bigger bonus, like 20 or so, for the person who actually is switched. Then make them immune to switching for the rest of the game in case the losing team turns it around (and to avoid exploiting).

This happened to me last night, and I raged incredibly hard.

Was a 6v6 match on Khylo. We were at 440:220 or so, then 3 of their team leaves and auto balance shifts me over to the other team, and I lose.

Suffice to say I was extremely annoyed.

Sol.3296:

Go play tPvP if you want perfect games. sPvP is simply for fast pvp games with randoms and is supposed to be easily accessible, which it currently is.

Sure, it’s annoying when I can a last minute auto-rebalance, but it happens once a session max and that isn’t enough to warrant changing the current system.

I do agree the ‘play now’ button needs to weigh up the amount of games with less than 10 players and start to prioritise them until they have 5v5, and then look to topping up the other games.

this is what i was going to say. go play tourney if you want balanced games. 8v8 is just a mess

BobTheJanitor.4936:

Two things that might help this. First, point out to players when they leave that they are not getting their accumulated glory for the match (since it doesn’t give it to you until the game is over… at least I’m pretty sure that’s how it works).

you’d think so as this would make a lot more sense, but no. some times i am missing 10 glory to buy a salvage kit or something so i’ll just join a 8v8, cap a point, and leave :P

also what is stupid is that when i join a game sometimes, if i see one side is winning by 200 points or something, i’ll just switch to the winning side if it was an even number of players before i joined. then the irony is that if someone on my original losing team leaves, the autobalance will likely put someone who actually contributed to the win on the losing team and I get a free win:P

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Sorry but there is a problem with that that i hope you guys over at anet have considered. If people leave a game and create unbalance, its usually because they are losing (probably getting creamed). If this is implemented, then when they press Play Now they will always be put into a game where they are losing and have no chance of winning. People will quickly get tired of being dominated and they will eventually all turn to selecting servers manually, and the only people left to press play now are very nooby players, who, lets face it, wont help that team on the losing side win.

Im Too Godlike.5629:

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Sorry but there is a problem with that that i hope you guys over at anet have considered. If people leave a game and create unbalance, its usually because they are losing (probably getting creamed). If this is implemented, then when they press Play Now they will always be put into a game where they are losing and have no chance of winning. People will quickly get tired of being dominated and they will eventually all turn to selecting servers manually, and the only people left to press play now are very nooby players, who, lets face it, wont help that team on the losing side win.

I disagree. While filling the team with lesser players will be more likely to put new players on a losing team, the point is to fill the room so the game can come to completion. Upon the completion of a game the Server will still randomly mix up the teams for the next game, so just because you’ve joined a team in the progress of losing a match it doesn’t mean the team is destined to lose the next match.

This change would vastly improve the issue of a player doing well the entire match getting penalized because people left early and shouldn’t lead to players abandoning the Play Now button at all.

I think this is a fine idea. However, speaking from experience with this very problem in Rift, you need to implement this change while being very cognizant of the problem of premades vs pugs. A premade team simply steamrolls s pug team, every time. I implore you to create a solution which truly balances the match instead of simply throwing more pug players against the onslaught of a premade team.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I think this is a fine idea. However, speaking from experience with this very problem in Rift, you need to implement this change while being very cognizant of the problem of premades vs pugs. A premade team simply steamrolls s pug team, every time. I implore you to create a solution which truly balances the match instead of simply throwing more pug players against the onslaught of a premade team.

The server randomly mixes teams up between each map in SPvP. The only time it doesn’t is in Tournaments, which are Premade vs. Premade.

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Well that is going to kill W/L records.

Unless joining a losing game just doesn’t count.

Screw the penalty, I’m not staying with a team that is not working together….and I’ll bekittenif I’m getting a penalty for leaving them…

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Great!

But I don’t understand why we need a serverbrowse anyway?

It would be much better if we could simple choose the map and click play now.

+ Why isn’t it possible to play sPVP with 5v5???

Apathy.6430:

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Well that is going to kill W/L records.

Unless joining a losing game just doesn’t count.

^
This!

It shouldn’t count as loss if you join a loosing team and it should count as loss
if you leave a game. So overall W/L ratio is still balanced.

Glowdeggel.2613:

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

Great!

But I don’t understand why we need a serverbrowse anyway?

It would be much better if we could simple choose the map and click play now.

+ Why isn’t it possible to play sPVP with 5v5???

I like the idea of a server browser.

For one, it lets you join the same server as your friends, even if you do end up playing against each other (which I’m not complaining about, I actually think it is required to make random matches not terrible).

On a larger stretch, it also gives the possibility of a “community” forming, or meeting up. Maybe the people from SomethingAwful want to meet up, they could just designate server 123 and meet up there.

They should make it like it was in GW1, press play now and wait in a queue until you find a game.

I don’t know what people are talking about with the win/loss ratios, as far as I know there is no such thing. I’d guess there won’t ever be such a thing in pug spvp so you won’t have to stress out about your rank when you’re just unwinding or whatever.

I can only assume there might be some kind of personal elo rating that is updated after tournaments, and if I had to make a further guess I’d say maybe only after paid tournaments when they implement them. At least I hope so.

In any case it seems natural that they would implement a personal rating system. Forming groups at the moment for tourneys look for high “glory rank” which is odd because you can use glory boosters.

There needs to be an incentive for switching. A point bonus would more than make up for it. Punishing people for leaving a match that obviously isn’t worth staying for will accomplish nothing other than making people hate unorganized sPvP. Usually when this happens it’s because one side is getting demolished, after all.

Just give us a little glory or a small multiplier to our existing points. Maybe even buff losing sides when the point disparity becomes too great. Most points come from personal kills, etc, after all. Actually winning doesn’t do a whole lot.

Yeah, volunteering to switch should just give you an extra 15-20% glory for the round. Otherwise, I really don’t even see the purpose of the prompt. Who is going to volunteer to switch to a losing team to get less glory?

They just need to get rid of auto balancing the way it currently functions. Nothing is more frustrating than to be personally playing well and helping your team win, only to be switched to the losing team. Just bring new players into the match from outside the match, and create a penalty for leaving. If there is a penalty, people will think twice about leaving. It works fine in other games. Someone has to lose every match – and if leaving has a penalty, they’ll stick it out and try their best and go on to a different game – just not the people who already were on the winning team, because then they are just screwing themselves and have no choice in the matter.

can i offer another suggestion to help deal with team size balance issues in pvp?

only ever add players to games in pairs. If a game has 10 players on it, and an 11th tries to enter the game, make him wait until a 12th also enters. #11 and #12 are then dropped into the game together, on opposite teams.

It’s also always wired to me when i end up fighting against people that were just in my team. I always feel a little strange to stomp a player that not 2 min ago helped me from my downed state and turned what seemed to be a sure death to winning the fight.

Move me to a new game / group of players, not simply swap me from the red team to the blue team in the same game (or the next game)

just my 2 cp =)

PS – if a penalty for dropping out is in place, give enough time to allow people to recover from a hardware / network “hiccup”. DC players should be able to get back in the same game within a reasonable amount of time =P

Xahz.8406:

If they’re not going to implement a queue, then just take the lowest score player (or person who has been in the game for the least amount of time) and swap them.

im not sure, but i think it already works like that
every time i see it on a match i just joined, im always the one getting swaped (since i just recently got in the game, i have the lowest score)

I think one of the problems that leads to imbalance (and one of the reasons I am against a penalty if you leave a match) is the speed in which a new game starts.

First of all you are auto queued for the next match without having to do anything, then when the game is over you very quickly get sent to that next match, about ten seconds later the match begins.

Pretty much any time I need to AFK and leave a match the game has already started. I suspect the same for other players as well and I think this may be causing imbalances just as much as people rage quitting because their team sucks.

It is kind of a weird system. Nice to have instant games but doesn’t really give you a moment to breath between games.

I really think that if a player has volunteered or is automatically chosen to switch teams then if their new team loses that loss should not be counted on their personal win/loss ratio, but if their team wins then they are credited with the win.

This way you still get the bonus for volunteering but you won’t be penalized for trying to balance the teams. I know it’s a stupid thing to complain over, but I really dislike the fact that my games played and games won tally doesn’t reflect the fact that easily 25% of my loses come from switching teams.

Suggestion to solve this problem easily:

Add a “sweetener” to voulenteering for a team swap! It’s that easy. If you voulenteer you could get a substancial one-time glory boost (long time since i played now but:) of 40-60 or so. That should have people pressing the button like mad, and you would have balance easier. You could even only offer the voulenteer option to the top 5 players of the team with most players, in order to ensure that the worst players just swap teams, gets the bonus and then leaves the game.

Additionaly: make sure all glory is rewarded at the END of matches, thus forcing people to play it out if they want their reward.

BloodMyst.3296:

I really think that if a player has volunteered or is automatically chosen to switch teams then if their new team loses that loss should not be counted on their personal win/loss ratio, but if their team wins then they are credited with the win.

This way you still get the bonus for volunteering but you won’t be penalized for trying to balance the teams. I know it’s a stupid thing to complain over, but I really dislike the fact that my games played and games won tally doesn’t reflect the fact that easily 25% of my loses come from switching teams.

I’m pretty sure that the way it works now, if you volunteer and get swapped, you’re given the win regardless of the outcome of the match. At least, that’s what I’ve noticed from checking my record before and after volunteering, and I remember other players mentioning the same thing in the past. I believe the change was implemented at the same time as the 5 point volunteer bonus was added, but don’t quote me on that.

Also, old topic. =x

Ah sorry about that, new to the game and maybe should pay more attention next time I volunteer.

Thanks for the correction.

Honestly in my opinion, not just sPvP but the whole hotjoin system is a big mistake.

It encourages you to play for yourself and not care which team you are on, not care about the score or winning the game, only your own personal score.

This is even more of a problem when you factor in auto balancing. In a game with this type of combat, being down a player is a huge disadvantage. If you join a game and your team is up a player, thats a huge advantage. This is a fundamental problem of the game mode. And sure, it’s only hotjoin, you don’t lose anything if you lose the game. But that’s another fundamental problem of the game mode. It doesn’t encourage working with your team to win.

Autobalance does not really solve any of those problems I just mentioned. Sure, it “sounds” like a solution when it evens out the players on each team, but you just took a key part of synergy from the winning team and threw them on the other team, once again encouraging them to play for themselves rather than for the team. And with people leaving and joining constantly, theres always an imbalance going on each team.

Hotjoin is a mode that was designed off FPS games, but this is not a FPS game and should not be treated as one. FPS games work much better if your playing solo and not working with your team. RPG style games, it doesnt work.

Not to mention it makes it a pain to play with freinds in this type of mode, and that’s another form of imbalance. So it’s not a good thing for community play OR balance.

JonPeters.5630:

milo.6942:

tl;dr: “Play now” button needs to strongly prioritize servers with player imbalances (very possible it does this already) and be put in a super obvious place like stuck to the side of the screen when in the heart of the mists. Keep everything else the same. Problem = largely solved.

Great suggestion. Promise I’m not just saying that because we’re already working on it.

Jon

nobody, and i mean nobody uses the Play Now button. take it out.

ALL games need to be 5v5 by default (unless modified in a custom arena) and players need to be punished for leaving like in Dota2/LoL (unless changed in a custom arena). this is highly recommended.

ZenoSpyridon.1396:

Honestly in my opinion, not just sPvP but the whole hotjoin system is a big mistake.

It encourages you to play for yourself and not care which team you are on, not care about the score or winning the game, only your own personal score.

This is even more of a problem when you factor in auto balancing. In a game with this type of combat, being down a player is a huge disadvantage. If you join a game and your team is up a player, thats a huge advantage. This is a fundamental problem of the game mode. And sure, it’s only hotjoin, you don’t lose anything if you lose the game. But that’s another fundamental problem of the game mode. It doesn’t encourage working with your team to win.

Autobalance does not really solve any of those problems I just mentioned. Sure, it “sounds” like a solution when it evens out the players on each team, but you just took a key part of synergy from the winning team and threw them on the other team, once again encouraging them to play for themselves rather than for the team. And with people leaving and joining constantly, theres always an imbalance going on each team.

Hotjoin is a mode that was designed off FPS games, but this is not a FPS game and should not be treated as one. FPS games work much better if your playing solo and not working with your team. RPG style games, it doesnt work.

Not to mention it makes it a pain to play with freinds in this type of mode, and that’s another form of imbalance. So it’s not a good thing for community play OR balance.

yup, horrible system. in a fps one skilled player can make up for team balance not so in low skill cap gw2 where 3 people who just picked up the game could easily down the most elite player in the game.

Sprawl.3891:

yup, horrible system. in a fps one skilled player can make up for team balance not so in low skill cap gw2 where 3 people who just picked up the game could easily down the most elite player in the game.

Not just that, but RPG style combat is designed from the ground up around teamwork with a full team. Which makes it completely silly that you aren’t rewarded for working with your team.

GW2 does have a low skill cap for “solo” players, but for a coordinated team has a very high skill cap, since most the mechanics are based around a team. The combo fields, the downed system, the buff system, the condition system, the AoE nature of most abilities, and the majority of special mechanics for most class, all support teamwork rather than solo and are not fully efficient without a team.

But as sad as it sounds, none of these things are rewarded in hotjoin, and you will progress much better bunkering or roaming and farming points, since things are not balanced by team and winning don’t matter.

Even if teamwork was rewarded, you would still progress better bunkering or roaming and farming points, and even without points bunkering or roaming fits the mode better. The whole system is flawed.

We dearly need more modes or else the amazing team combat of the game is never going to shine. Once again I gotta say, I give up on this game until it becomes more like GW1. This isn’t a Guild Wars PvP game yet. I hope it becomes one some day…

And that pains me to say, because I was a huge fan of GW2 leading up to release, the dev team is awesome as I’ve talked to them myself and even played the game at Comiccon before release. Got all my friends to play, who now are afraid to buy any games on my recommendation again. With as many smart designers who actually play their own game, I don’t know how things are turning out this way, there must be some business issues behind the scenes we’re not aware of that are ruining things for everyone. Especially considering noone will even respond to the loyal GW1 players who were told to expect similar things from GW2 PvP.

i think we can all agree on two things:

1. 8v8 needs to go (unless someone modifies it in custom arenas)
2. hotjoin needs to go

we need:
1. 5v5 based on rank
2. some sort of disincentive for leaving a 5v5 halfway through the match

most of GW2’s pvp woes would be solved by abolishing 8v8. it’s a horrible idea considering the game is barely balanced around 5v5!

Spvp is about fun and gaining glory. Simplest solution in my eyes is awarding glory to someone who switches. More than they would get by being on the winning team. Now you’ve created two rewards on opposite sides: increased currency (glory) or the esoteric reward of victory.

Xp bonus is another possible reward.

Just need to develop a method to stave abuse.