Guild Wars 2

After Anet’s attention on the issue with how strong (some of the) auto-attacks are, and mentioning the possibility of toning them down for pvp (with a split for other modes), I think it would be wise to discuss them further. I want to talk about them within the context of pvp, but also within the context of pve. I understand that this forum is for pvp only, but we all know that it is also the “unofficial game balancing forum”, and any decisions to pvp affect the other modes greatly. Also, any nerf I might suggest in this thread is targetted at how “spammable” auto-attacks are, and do not take into consideration how they affect the entire profession’s balance.

My thoughts on the current situation:

CONCLUSION: The damage of auto-attacks should generally be toned down across all formats. PvE, WvW, PvP. Such a change shouldn’t be split between PvE and PvP, possible exceptions aside. It should be universal and affect Guild Wars 2 as a whole.

But then, it creates a new problem. The possibility of them not being worth the time spent using them, unless everything else is under cooldown. It would make the main bar consist of 4 skills, and a “left-over” that has no purpose but to be used when no other skill is available. Not very interesting. Spending time using auto-attacks instead of any other skills should still be a viable, strategical choice, and not simply a “better-than-nothing filler”.

The solution? The best I’ve seen from this community, is to keep auto-attacks strong, but through utility and not through damage. “Utility” here can mean many things, including the idea of auto-attacks fueling the power of other skills. Because the remaining options are under a cooldown, you would want to use them at the best possible time, instead of wasting their cooldowns. Auto-attacks could be used to set up/ build up “the best possible time” to use them.

How would that work? I’ll take inspiration from two popular builds from GW1’s elementalist.

How can we adapt this to GW2’s skill system, where energy does not exist? Simple. Boons and conditions. Those are the “investment”. Let’s create a few examples:

Examples that already exist in the game:

All those examples are a “first step” for auto-attacks that fuel the remaining skills, or add utility. But in most of those cases, those attacks still revolve around damage first, and utility second. It should be reversed. Maybe the gs’s auto-attack should have weaker damage but stronger might. Maybe mind slash should have stronger vulnerability, but vapor blade definitely should. Maybe conjure axe’s auto-attack should see its damage nerfed and its possible might addition become even stronger. Although being a conjure with charges makes it a different case. Etc.

That’s pretty much what I wanted to say, I think.

Good ideas. I think these are better than just nerfing autos across the board. Even so, there are a lot of factors that we need to be careful of.

A major part of how you build is risk/reward as well. If autoattacks are toned down across the board, will anyone build risky like five gauge did for MLG? Right now, glass cannon builds rely on pressure as much as burst.

If autoattacks are nerfed, I think we’ll really have no choice but to nerf healing across the board as well. We’ll probably have to nerf thieves, engineers, and even eles, because they don’t have to rely on autoattacks as much as other professions do. We’d need to nerf pet damage and spirit burning for rangers.

That’s why instead of nerfing, I suggest changing them to fuel other attacks. For example, instead of having high base damage, they would have low base damage but a good build-up with boons/ conditions for other attacks to deal higher damage. The overall dps would probably remain the same or close, but the playstyles would rely more on the cooldown skills and less on the spammable attacks.

Always like your posts Diogo.
Your suggestions are good.
Boon and condi idea is good I think, but I dislike them in general for being a bit too… umm… without consequence I guess I want to say, and too common already. I was thinking of your suggestion and thought of an auto attack chain of 2 skills, where the last skill applies some condition to enemy, and then a couple other skills on the bar will provide bonus damage or effect if enemy is under that condition. Possibly would remove or “shatter” that condition on foe for the effect. But then I think in a group fight how easy it would be for a 2nd class to apply this condition and it might easily become overpowered (but the entire discussion is theoretical and vague so even my concerns are without merit for now).

Then another thought occurred to me, that regular weapon sets might occasionally feature weapon-specific “boons” or even possibly conditions. they could be inert and provide no benefit or other effects (i guess they should be called charge counters or something), and simply be used as “currency” for other skills on the bar (e.g. use auto attack to gain charge counters which another few skills may require or benefit from). I don’t think they should have any other functionality so not to intrude in condition and boon territory. also, these charges should be visible to enemies and yourself, so there is chance to counterplay or play mind games.

Here is simple example: auto attack causes you to gain a charge counter on completion of 3rd attack in chain, skill #2 will use 1 charge to provide some boon for 3 seconds (in addition to its regular effects), skill #3 will use 3 charges to provide a knockdown effect to the skill if the charges are available (in addition to its regular effects).

For some professions, auto-attacks can be used as a source of initiative, adrenaline, etc.

The idea of applying boons and then self-shattering them with the other main bar skills is also pretty cool.

Another possibility, is that the sequence of an auto-attack could determine the following skill. For example, skill #2 could have different effects depending on first chain, where doing the full chain would lead to a stronger #2 attack, but self-interrupting the chain would lead to a more utility #2.

DiogoSilva.7089:

For some professions, auto-attacks can be used as a source of initiative, adrenaline, etc.

The idea of applying boons and then self-shattering them with the other main bar skills is also pretty cool.

Another possibility, is that the sequence of an auto-attack could determine the following skill. For example, skill #2 could have different effects depending on first chain, where doing the full chain would lead to a stronger #2 attack, but self-interrupting the chain would lead to a more utility #2.

That is also an interesting idea, there is really a wide array of things that are possible, even within the limited framework of current gameplay mechanics.

I agree with all that make this game less brainless and spammy. And you is a great idea

I like the ideas, but here are things to consider/thoughts for debate:

Range vs Melee
Keep in mind that, as a Melee class, it is generally harder to connect your auto attacks than it is as a ranged class. I think “strong-ish” auto attacks for melee classes are a way for them to keep other classes under pressure if they manage to connect all their hits (ranged class standing in front of melee should just die, not facetank you).
Anyway, I’m not sure melee classes would be really balanced with a reduction to auto attack damage or a need to “setup” a burst by adding boon after boon to use one powerful melee attack (more easily countered, as positioning is more critical).
It was my understanding that melee auto are generally slightly stronger than range auto for that (people should kite you, and you should connect 50% of your hits).

Cleaves
Melee autoattack has cleave (except for dagger). It is a powerful mechanic (in a way) but reducing AA damage would imbalance melee classes multiplicatively.

• Applying personal boons vs applying opponent conds *
  It is generally better to apply personal boons than conds to opponents, for quicker target swapping without losing the benefit of the “stack” (On a side note and should this idea go everywhere, if anything, melee should always apply boons to themselves given how much more difficult it is to connect attacks).

• Time to setup/predictability of burst*
  The time to setup your “burst” and the addition of stacks of might/vuln/etc. would make fights generally slower and make you more predictable (guy has full stack = run away or stealth).

• OP-ness of cleansing *
  People who can cleanse boons and conds (necros good example) would be OP.

Suggestion of build:
If you want to try what this whole thing would feel like in a live situation, you should try the build below:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHbhG2IjWxelm2G/eCA6Rv16cMDkPm+Q5A-TsAg0EBpCyFkJIZQ2gGUsKYTwkAA
This is a Axe necro Power mid-range build that bases its damage on stacks of vuln + other conds to setup a burst with weak auto attack on Axe (amazingly weak given that this build has high power) and then you use Axe 2 (the “meat grinder” for high damage) to damage ennemy on a 6s CD for channelled burst (+20-25% dmg from vuln, using the signet of spite +12% from “Target the weak” trait and 3 stacks of might, +20% when ennemy below 50% health).
It feels rather frustrating and you will hit all the problems mentioned above (time to setup, predictability, difficulty to swap targets).

The issue about melee classes is interesting, and all the more complex when we take into consideration that in pve most of those problems don’t exist. Melee is “overpowered” in pve due to predictable AI and PBAoE boon-spreading.

I wonder, was there ever a single case where pvp versions of skills were stronger than the pve versions? It’s usually the opposite, but maybe in this case, something like that could be considered.

A simpler change could be to tone down the cleave effects, to only deal half the damage to non-target opponents.

When I read some of the ides another game comes to mind and that is the neverwinter and its cleric class.
Not sure there are other games with this mechanism but was the first one I ever played and something I found to be a unique ability.
The system works like this:
You damage the enemy to fill up 3 charges, much like adrenaline for warriors but with 3 times as much. Once you have filled up some charges you can activate then to give special effects to your already existing skills.
I would love it if auto attack worked the same way and that we get a system where we can add special effects to our weapon skills. Even more fun if the effects give some utility effects and not just some boring extra might or bleeding, like different kind of auras, teleport to target location, “borrow” 10% damage from target enemy(reduce there dmg and gain it temporary). I can go on with more examples but you get the general idea.

I dont think we will see something like this though but one can always wish