(edited by Moderator)
Auto balancing
The thing which frustrates me most about PvP is the auto-balance mechanic. Three out of five games in a row I was top or second scoring and was auto balanced to the other team and lost shortly afterwards.
Auto-balance should not be random, and given my experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if the formula was more likely to swap higher scoring players. I doubt that’s the case though, as that’s the complete opposite of what it should be.
It should swap the person coming last; the person who has contributed the least to their team, and who wouldn’t mind as much being swapped. If someone has joined one minute ago and been away from keyboard for half of that time, he should be the one to be swapped, not the person who is playing the game and helping his team seize victory.
I still think the volunteer system is a good idea, perhaps if you are balanced after volunteering you could get a glory bonus, similar to the top scoring bonuses you get at the end of the match. But if no one volunteers, the bottom scoring player should be the one to be balanced. Auto-balance is based purely on team numbers, not score discrepancy.
Please show your support here so that the auto-balance mechanic can be examined, as currently it is the worst part of many people’s Structured player vs player experience.
I think petitions are actually against forum policies or something.. unless this forum is different?
The balance in sPvP is bad. There are builds out there that are nearly impossible to beat with any profession or set up. Skills that can make any fight completely unfair and alot of bugs. I have played defensive/offensive warrior, balanced elementalist and condition/AoE bombkit engineer.
Too strong:
1. Moa… There are some things up for debate that might be countered. This one is not! With all the mesmer effects up there is no way you are going to see it being cast. There is a very high chance you will lose the fight while being a moa
2. Any kind of quickness. Quickness + pistol whip, hundred blades, crossfire (shortbow ranger) etc.
Argueably you dodge these abilities. I say that’s not doable. Sure you can see the herpkittenwarrior coming. But how am I to dodge the stealthed thief? How am I to cure my conditions every 5s because you have rank 10+ bleeds on in that time?
3. Target drops. Mesmers and thieves have alot of these. I do not care I need to reselect him, but if I already pressed my skill it will fire and miss. You can lose so much damage missing because of that.
4. Condition builds. High direct damage means high power and high precision. High condition damage means just some condition damage stat. There is alot of room for being very very sturdy while dealing alot of damage. Removing conditions does not help so much because of the cooldown being too long.
5. The trebuchet in Battle of Khylo. It’s not too strong, it’s just way too easy to repair. It’s not fun getting the treb down 10 times.
It seems to be a trend to shoot down any thread about something being unbalanced. So please, some constructive comments about other things you think are too strong or too weak.
I dunno about your condition removal comments.. I haven’t played every class extensively, but as a thief/elementalist/guardian, I’ve been able to remove conditions quite easily, repeatedly. Especially on the Thief.. So many condition removals.
Target drops is mostly irrelevant when attacks still fire in the general direction of whatever you’re aiming at.
Once you learn that targeting is irrelevant, mesmers become easy.
Quickness+pistol whip. Seeing as the thief just burned his 2 dodges for the next 10+ seconds, I’m sure you can find some way to whoop him after he’s done dancing. That being said, it does need something done to it. Not quickness, but pistol whip.
The balance overall is alright.
There’s room for many specs, and each spec has many advantages, while also having many weaknesses.
The only problems SPvP suffers from balance-wise, is downed state, and Moa (which you mentioned)
Either everyone should have a hindering ability in their downed state available instantly upon being downed, or no-one should.
I would prefer if no-one had one within the first 8 seconds of being downed.
It’s not fun for anyone to need to try and finish at least twice each time, unless it’s an elementalist.
In regards to the trebuchet: Don’t destroy it. Dodge the boulders. You have an extra man for capture points, and they have one man down, who’s desperately trying to do something useful, but ends up bringing down his team.
.. whats the difference between pistol whip and hundred blades? Not much, really. Quickness is definitly the issue, not pistol whip. It has a .5 second stun which is really used more as an interrupt than anything.. it has a longish cast time (takes a moment to hit with your pistol, then a moment to start channeling sword hits). The only issue right now is with stealth — For whatever reason, when you attack from stealth, you are not instantly revealed on the other person’s screen. So, for the time that you are starting to channel pistol whip you are not visible when you should be. Try using pistol whip out of stealth.. it’s incredibly hard to get all of the damage off.
I dunno about your condition removal comments.. I haven’t played every class extensively, but as a thief/elementalist/guardian, I’ve been able to remove conditions quite easily, repeatedly. Especially on the Thief.. So many condition removals.
thief:
infiltrator’s strike
shadowstep
healing
roll for initiative
??then??
half of them are stunbreak.
Downed state is not too bad. The only classes that you can’t down on the first try are thieves and mesmers but teammates also cant revive them when they are teleporting around. Stability or any of the many blinds in this game will stop the other classes from being able to interrupt the stomp.
.. whats the difference between pistol whip and hundred blades? Not much, really. Quickness is definitly the issue, not pistol whip. It has a .5 second stun which is really used more as an interrupt than anything.. it has a longish cast time (takes a moment to hit with your pistol, then a moment to start channeling sword hits). The only issue right now is with stealth — For whatever reason, when you attack from stealth, you are not instantly revealed on the other person’s screen. So, for the time that you are starting to channel pistol whip you are not visible when you should be. Try using pistol whip out of stealth.. it’s incredibly hard to get all of the damage off.
The difference lies in the stun, and the amount of Pistol-Whips you can get off, compared to Hundred Blades.
I also would somehow like to see attacks immediately breaking stealth, regardless of whether they land or not.
Upon the very start of the animation, the thief should leave stealth and be visible to the enemy.
This would also make the skill requirement a bit higher. A miss is a lost backstab, compared to now, where you can just repeatedly attempt to backstab until you pull it off.
(edited by Rika.7249)
Its funny that only ppl which play classes like mesmer, guardien… state that the balance is alright
Its funny that only ppl which play classes like mesmer, guardien… state that the balance is alright
Oh? Right now. You and me are going to play a game.
You’re going to look down the list of users who posted in here. You will reply as such:
Name.2938 plays Mesmer.
Name.4873 plays Guardian.
So on.
Its funny that only ppl which play classes like mesmer, guardien… state that the balance is alright
Oh? Right now. You and me are going to play a game.
You’re going to look down the list of users who posted in here. You will reply as such:
Name.2938 plays Mesmer.
Name.4873 plays Guardian.So on.
I don´t talk about you…i mean in general (in all threads about balance recently) !
Warrior can get just as much damage off by switching weapon sets. That stun doesn’t make much of a difference.. Infact, the warrior being able to bullcharge you and knock you down for 2 seconds is worse.
I also don’t agree with being revealed upon animation. It should only be revealed upon dealing damage. In most cases it does (for the thief, the target still won’t see you because of rendering issues). The rendering issue really needs to be adressed though because that does cause a major imbalance.
I dunno about your condition removal comments.. I haven’t played every class extensively, but as a thief/elementalist/guardian, I’ve been able to remove conditions quite easily, repeatedly. Especially on the Thief.. So many condition removals.
thief:
infiltrator’s strike
shadowstep
healing
roll for initiative
??then??
half of them are stunbreak.
Shukran, I use the trait that removes a condition every 3 secs in stealth. Shadow refuge will remove all my conditions, blinding powder will remove one, dagger 5 will remove 1, etc. I use Sword/Dagger, my normal ‘combo’ will start off with a 2 to shadowstep to enemy, then a 5 to get into stealth. if at anypoint I get stunned I’ll 2 back.. my stealth will have removed 1 condition, the shadowstep return from 2 will have removed 1.
Warrior can get just as much damage off by switching weapon sets. That stun doesn’t make much of a difference.. Infact, the warrior being able to bullcharge you and knock you down for 2 seconds is worse.
I also don’t agree with being revealed upon animation. It should only be revealed upon dealing damage. In most cases it does (for the thief, the target still won’t see you because of rendering issues). The rendering issue really needs to be adressed though because that does cause a major imbalance.
What do you propose is done about the rendering then. Revealing upon animation makes the thief visible earlier, while hardly anyone would be able to dodge it.
Furthermore, a miss in stealth just shouldn’t be given a second chance. Or a third. Or a seventh.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
Uh. No.
I’ll let you figure out why you’re wrong.
Makes it all the more fun.
Warrior can get just as much damage off by switching weapon sets. That stun doesn’t make much of a difference.. Infact, the warrior being able to bullcharge you and knock you down for 2 seconds is worse.
I also don’t agree with being revealed upon animation. It should only be revealed upon dealing damage. In most cases it does (for the thief, the target still won’t see you because of rendering issues). The rendering issue really needs to be adressed though because that does cause a major imbalance.
What do you propose is done about the rendering then. Revealing upon animation makes the thief visible earlier, while hardly anyone would be able to dodge it.
Furthermore, a miss in stealth just shouldn’t be given a second chance. Or a third. Or a seventh.
Rendering? It should be fixed, then. There are probably technical problems that cause it, and technical solutions to fix it. I’m not a programmer and I don’t know the code anyways, so I can’t tell you how to fix it.
Why should a miss in stealth matter? what makes the other person away of the thieve’s presence? it’s usually the damage, and that’s why they become revealed. Stealths don’t last forever anyways.. if you miss, you’re already not gonna have enough time to do another pistol whip chance because of it’s cast time. You could use another ability to stealth again, but then you’re blowing all your CD’s for one attack. Good luck getting away if you have no stealths up.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
Uh. No.
I’ll let you figure out why you’re wrong.
Makes it all the more fun.
Nice, very constructive and useful post right there.
I dunno about your condition removal comments.. I haven’t played every class extensively, but as a thief/elementalist/guardian, I’ve been able to remove conditions quite easily, repeatedly. Especially on the Thief.. So many condition removals.
thief:
infiltrator’s strike
shadowstep
healing
roll for initiative
??then??
half of them are stunbreak.Shukran, I use the trait that removes a condition every 3 secs in stealth. Shadow refuge will remove all my conditions, blinding powder will remove one, dagger 5 will remove 1, etc. I use Sword/Dagger, my normal ‘combo’ will start off with a 2 to shadowstep to enemy, then a 5 to get into stealth. if at anypoint I get stunned I’ll 2 back.. my stealth will have removed 1 condition, the shadowstep return from 2 will have removed 1.
very interesting..
what is your role in team then?
i never found a good use of s/d build so im very interested .
Wasn’t aware of that. Changed the name, don’t consider it a petition, I would however like to see other people’s opinions and if they agree with me.
I dunno about your condition removal comments.. I haven’t played every class extensively, but as a thief/elementalist/guardian, I’ve been able to remove conditions quite easily, repeatedly. Especially on the Thief.. So many condition removals.
thief:
infiltrator’s strike
shadowstep
healing
roll for initiative
??then??
half of them are stunbreak.Shukran, I use the trait that removes a condition every 3 secs in stealth. Shadow refuge will remove all my conditions, blinding powder will remove one, dagger 5 will remove 1, etc. I use Sword/Dagger, my normal ‘combo’ will start off with a 2 to shadowstep to enemy, then a 5 to get into stealth. if at anypoint I get stunned I’ll 2 back.. my stealth will have removed 1 condition, the shadowstep return from 2 will have removed 1.
very interesting..
what is your role in team then?
i never found a good use of s/d build so im very interested .
I still build a lot of power for damage, but my team utility for s/d is immobilizing and crippling with 2 and 4 to secure kills, intterupting with the 2s daze from sword backstab skill, and removing boons with the s/d 3 skill. A guardian is wayyy easier to kill when you remove their retaliation and protection. I build lots of Vitality and Toughness, because you simply can’t live long enough in teamfights to help everyone. I use 30 pts in shadow arts for massive regen and extra stealth duration, I make it a point to rez other people while stealthed so the enemy doesn’t notice.
Scorpion Wire is amazing for stopping people from finishing others, and also for pulling people out of position for a kill. Shadow Refuge with shadow arts traits will heal your team a lot and provide for easier rez’s.
You can kill people with just the power from Knight’s amulet, but it does take awhile. Right now I’m using the Balthazar rune set for the 3s burn when using healing skill (I tested those runes, it’s actually like 5 seconds burn). I use Signet of Malice with the 20% cd reduction on it, so it because a ~4k heal ~ 2.3k aoe burning damage on 12 sec CD. because you lose the stealth on healing skill, you need to make sure you take stealths in utilities and make good use of dagger 5 stealth.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
I can say, as a Necro, I’ve tried all possible builds to maximize the condition damage and I felt that it is the only effective way to play the Necro (power builds are in common sense unviable) and I thought they were good at it. Than I played a Ranger with Shortbow and I understood how stupid I was.
Press 1, strafe all around the target, stack 20+ bleeds in 2-3 seconds, see the target dying.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
Uh. No.
I’ll let you figure out why you’re wrong.
Makes it all the more fun.Nice, very constructive and useful post right there.
Just like your very nice and constructive “RANGERS CAN’T DO ANYTHING ELSE THAN THIS. IT R WORST PROFESSION IN GAME.”
Lol can you really complain about condition rangers being UP with a straight face?
Lol can you really complain about condition rangers being UP with a straight face?
Sir, please, everyone knows that Duckzor has claimed that rangers are beyond the weakest profession in PvP.
Lol, I really can’t say that with a straight face, rofl.
I also would somehow like to see attacks immediately breaking stealth, regardless of whether they land or not.
Upon the very start of the animation, the thief should leave stealth and be visible to the enemy.
This would also make the skill requirement a bit higher. A miss is a lost backstab, compared to now, where you can just repeatedly attempt to backstab until you pull it off.
As far as I can remember, it was like that in Beta. Stealth broke upon taking actions, not landing damage.
Changed at release.
Stealth easy mode.
Thief easy mode.
I think you should just play tournaments
Well I can’t say I follow you line of thinking when it comes to conditions….yes there may be some flexibility and yes some of the options to improve condition damage has defensive stats tied into it but it also takes longer to kill someone via conditions then huge burst….so again do not follow you. Secondly there are hard counters to conditions, burst damage counter is defense but burst damage out scales defense which is why a thief can still easily drop even durable built characters in seconds.
For conditions you have removals of all kinds and of course high HP is a strong counter to them.
As for the ranger, Im rank 20 and my most played is the Ranger. If you removed quickness the ranger would take a massive hit and be stuck into 1 possibly 2 builds.
Condition build as your not as reliant on QZ but it still is very good. Or a ghetto bunker build running mass regeneration.
Seeing as most every poll I have seen across various websites places the ranger at around #6 on pvp balance tier lists….and you nerfed conditions and haste….Ranger would easily fall into the weakest profession in the game.
Instead of saying you will let us figure it out, like you have some mega secret about rangers…why not just tell us and give some credibility? As of right now it just comes off sounding like you have no answers and a lack of exp playing the profession.
Moa yes, even mesmers agree that it needs some changes.
Treb is fine, mesmer portal is not. Treb gives tactical depth to the map in various ways. The mesmer portal really screws this up though.
Haste on warriors is not a huge deal, it is a deathwish if they fail to execute their combo correctly. Thieves it is a problem due to the init system and stealth. If thieves lost haste they would function perfectly well but not be able to insta drop someone from stealth with PW. Their damage, survival and backstab crits would still all be there. Warriors would could still function without it but I honestly see it as less of an issue for them. Rangers would be hit very hard.
Do you realize how many threads have been posted about auto balancing? If you don’t, the answer is a lot.
If you suggest that they don’t auto balance to keep the game as fair as it can be at all times, what do you suggest they do? You have to understand that structured pvp is actually the “casual” version. If you really want to rid yourself of auto balance, I recommend forming a team and trying tournament pvp.
I see threads like this pop up a lot and most of them say something along the lines of “auto balance is stupid!”, but provide no input as to how to resolve their issues with it.
I can’t take full credit for the following idea, but I did see it posted by somebody and still think its the best idea regarding auto balance that I’ve seen. It’s pretty simple really, instead of auto balancing when too many players leave one team, just end the match and move on to the next map. Once the next map loads the game will have already “auto balanced” the teams.
In the end, the point I’m trying to get at is that if you’re going to make a thread on something you don’t particularly care for in the game, perhaps you should provide some constructive feedback as opposed to just calling a feature “stupid”.
It says “incredible”.
I was in a match when i wrote the initial post, edited with more content. I’m sure there are a ton of threads but here’s one more for emphasis.
There is no reason for an autobalance in a game that lasts about 5-7 minutes. If the game loses some players, tough luck, finish the game off and start a new one in 1 minute. Don’t punish me because i did well and switch me at the last second so i dont get my win.
Tournaments are NOT the answer to autobalance issues. I should not have my win stolen from me 30 points away from finishing a game because the game feels its unfair. There’s no reason the losing team can’t suck it up until the next match when teams are remade. They dont lose anything for losing, but I lose the win I earned by being switched randomly.
For starters, you aren’t really being punished for being auto balanced to a losing team. What do you miss out on, 30 glory for the win bonus? Most of your earned glory is determined by your contribution to the match.
Once again: sPvP is CASUAL, whether you like it or not. It’s just a fact of the game. Considering this little nugget of knowledge regarding this specific aspect of the game, you have to come to understand that players are going to join your game in progress, sometimes leave and that you may or may not be auto balanced to the other team.
As I said above, if you truly want to rid yourself of auto balancing: Stop playing the casual version and go form a team to play tournament mode.
It says “incredible”.
Actually, yes, tournaments ARE the answer to folks trying to rid themselves of the evil “auto balance monster”. What you fail to understand is that sPvP is CASUAL. There will be players who leave mid game, players who join mid game and also times when you will be auto balanced to the other team.
If you are not okay with auto balancing there is only one answer: Form a team and play tournament mode.
It says “incredible”.
Tournaments are not the solution, its a copout answer from a fanboi that thinks ANet can do no wrong. I understand maybe fixing teams if people leave under 100 points, but when im 30 points from the win don’t take that from me. I just started sPvP so 30 glory is fantastic. When im like 50 or so it wouldn’t be a big deal. But just starting out with my friends, we don’t have a team all the time. Most of my friends are in school and working so I have to do regular games most of the time.
I never said they could do no wrong (there’s lots of things I would change if I could, I even mentioned above a solution to auto balancing if you actually read my post), I just understand their logic as to why they have an auto balancing feature in their CASUAL version of PvP. Is that too hard a concept for you to grasp?
I’ve been auto balanced when my team has had 480+ points. We’ve all experienced losses because of auto balancing. It’s unfortunate, of course, but its part of the game.
It says “incredible”.
It’s part of the game that can and should be changed though. Who says a casual game has to be remade? The game shoudl start, it should play out, and then it should end when there is a winner, and a new game should begin. Tough luck if pugs rage quit, just wait for a new game 2 minutes later.
Isn’t sPvP designed for pugs? I like how you’ve now moved your position from “Don’t do it, it’s stupid” to “it should be changed though”. I wholeheartedly agree! As I said in my first post, I mentioned a potential solution to auto balancing which I feel would work very well. For one, it would let you finish on the team you started with, and then auto balance on the next map. Fixed, right?
If you feel auto balance should be changed, what is your idea on how it could be changed?
It says “incredible”.
I haven’t changed my position. The change is that it should be removed. Your solution is fine, unless the game ends quickly, that’s just no fun for anyone. And just ending the game takes away kills people on any team could earn within that time.
No one loses anything for losing, there’s no reason to try and stop a team from losing by taking someone from the winning team to help them. As someone that gets switched over, I refuse to help that team anyway. They don’t deserve a win after all I did to make sure they could not.
TL:DR: Dont do it. just dont. stupid.
To me, this sounds like you want it removed.
It’s part of the game that can and should be changed though.
This sounded like you’ve changed from remove it completely, to change it.
I haven’t changed my position. The change is that it should be removed.
It is unlikely that they will remove this part of sPvP altogether, however they may modify it at some point. Remember, the game isn’t even a month old yet so of course their are going to be kinks to work out as the game progresses.
If the idea to end the match if too many people quit isn’t what they want to do then perhaps this one would work. Instead of always auto balancing when too many people quit, perhaps their should be a score limit as to when auto balance no longer occurs. I’d say 450 points should make it so auto balance no longer occurs during that match.
Another idea would be to auto balance the most recently joined players instead of choosing somebody at random.
It says “incredible”.
Tournaments are not the solution, its a copout answer from a fanboi that thinks ANet can do no wrong. I understand maybe fixing teams if people leave under 100 points, but when im 30 points from the win don’t take that from me. I just started sPvP so 30 glory is fantastic. When im like 50 or so it wouldn’t be a big deal. But just starting out with my friends, we don’t have a team all the time. Most of my friends are in school and working so I have to do regular games most of the time.
So agreeing with ANet’s design means that you’re a blind fanatic? That just as dumb as saying that people voicing complaints or dislikes on the forums are anti-ANet Blizzard aficionados…. So trying to refute statements with that argument just shows your level of illogical, subjective rage.
It looks like to me that ANet simply wants their casual PvP to play similarly to an online FPS (TF2 for example), as evidenced even by the server browser feature. In those games, autobalance is a core mechanic that keeps things fun for the entire server. Instead of rage-quitting leading to an inevitable roflstomp where not even the victors get a satisfying win, autobalance gives the game a chance to remain even. I’ve been a long time player of TF2 and have had many years to feel the pain and frustration of getting autobalanced, so I understand what it feels like. But it’s nowhere near as frustrating as losing b/c your team is outnumbered or as boring as crushing a team who has no chance.
Plus, since there is no gear treadmill, who cares if you lose 30 glory? 6 kills, 3 skirmisher kills (or is it 2?), 10 treb hits? So easy to earn. I’d rather have less roflstomping and more fun for everyone in the casual pvp mode than let those who can’t suffer the ego shot of missing out on a minute amount of points that don’t really mean anything in the grand scheme of things get to feel warm and fuzzy. I’d much rather people like you just learn to think CASUAL in the CASUAL game mode.
No option to reply.. But no, soley agreeing with their design is not my reason for saying that, I say that because every thread concerning this issue has someone making that point that they should just do tournys, when clearly thats not a solution people are finding appropriate.
Its not about what you find is not a big deal. It’s a big deal to me. Not just the points I lost, but the victory I deserved. And then its just rubbed in my face because I helped the other team beat myself now.
Autobalance works in FPS games because they last 15-20 minutes or so. not just 5 minutes. It’s such a small amount of time to play, there is no reason to change teams.
If it can’t be removed then at least make the games first to 2000. That way when I get switched il at least have plenty of time to make a comeback. When I was swapped it was literally completely impossible for us to win, short of the other team sitting in spawn.
Crossfire + quickness = OP?
Sir, you obviously don’t play a ranger.
This is the only way rangers can even have a small chance against other classes. Rofl. Take it away and rangers are easily far below the worst pvp class in the game.
Uh. No.
I’ll let you figure out why you’re wrong.
Makes it all the more fun.Nice, very constructive and useful post right there.
Just like your very nice and constructive “RANGERS CAN’T DO ANYTHING ELSE THAN THIS. IT R WORST PROFESSION IN GAME.”
And to you, obviously I was exaggerating. My point is they would be extremely less effective and have virtually no burst.
QZ is almost a necessity on anyone with half a brain.
Please remove this feature, I lost about 5 games in a row with a 10-20 point difference and the one game that I am about to win with myself being top player I get balanced to the other team for my 6th loss. I have had this happen a few times. this ruins spvp for me
Autobalancing is the most irritating feature I have ever seen. If I play to win and a buddy of the other team quits…why I deserve to loose? Tell me Anet, why? I played good, I scored points, so whats the point of this?