Guild Wars 2

I dont know how anyone else feels but i watched the Pro League finals. The Astral and Rank 55 were very good games but i have to say that thief and necro were not very good.

The 2 NA teams tried using necro and thief and PZ simply dropped the ball. But in the Astral case, toker had moments where he did everything right and it didnt matter all he was there for was decaps. There was 3 situations where we was far superior like when he blew up the mesmer (he was rezzed up quickly) and when he engaged levin who was on rev and toker should of had him but simply put the thief class just isnt as good.

Even necro seemed absolutely useless at times. Nos is the past has kept necro viable by simply having the best 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 situations but he couldnt do that at all. You heard many times that in the match especially on temple when they had to split apart that the necro needed support help.

I dont know anet plans on how to fix these things but you cant have ESL leagues where you have to use a different class and yet 3 classes seem to be ineffective. Guardian/DH, Necro/reaper, thief/daredevil.

Also i would like to point out 2 things, these were the 4 best teams in the GW2 community and TCG blew out both teams they played. If it can happen to the best players in the game it will happen in ranked games.

2nd is to anet, please balance the game around high level play. The nerf to DH forced the ESL players to not use them which for the most part meant alot of other players in game didnt use them. there also needs to be multiple of builds people can play. It was seriously hard to take it seriously when toker is running from far to mid back to far and the mesmer is just chasing. Maybe there was a build toker could of used to win a 1 vs 1 consistently in that situation. IDK but some of the things in the game just seem ridiculous such as a decap thief that +1 but couldnt +1 a warrior.

Thats….simply not true.

Team PZ would have been steamrolled even if they played warrior and mes instead of nec/thief, their comp was awkward considering their personal playstyles and TCG was just simply way stronger mentally/individually.

And Astral Authority did NOT loose because of their comp, they lost because of small mistakes in decisionmaking or r55 executing their decisions better towards the end of each game. Toker actually did a LOT of work, and so did Nos.

Also +1ing the warrior as a thief is fine, but not if you +1 your rev (both of the classes with little condi remove), it can work but its extremely risky (AA was just in a situation where they had to try, and quite franky was just really well played by Texbi).

TCG blowing out both teams also has NOTHING to do with classbalance lol they pretty much played a mirror comp in the finals.

So please, think a little more next time before you try to ask for better balance….

kdaddy.5431:

Also i would like to point out 2 things, these were the 4 best teams in the GW2 community and TCG blew out both teams they played. If it can happen to the best players in the game it will happen in ranked games.

Yes, but let’s be clear… TCG didn’t blow out both teams because they were premade q’ing in a soloq world. You can have a completely balanced game in terms of classes, and still have blowouts. That’s the skill part.

Another thread where you showcase that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The only reason Astral stayed as close as they did in points is because of their Thief.

The only obvious comp with a disadvantage was PZ, with skill and rotational issues aside (playing favorable matchups). The other sets were purely decided on a combination of “on the spot decisions” and rotational gameplay, if somebody got cleaned out in a 1v1 it is a very big deal because skill becomes greater than build at that point (or vice-versa). To place balance on teams that win tournaments is completely wrong, because some builds are made to only work in coordinated groups while others are made for meta battle and they are all-rounder type of builds.

Jelzouki.4128:

Another thread where you showcase that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The only reason Astral stayed as close as they did in points is because of their Thief.

This is why I think its important to have another board that everyone can read, but only accounts that have MMR in the top few% can post.

Jelzouki.4128:

The only reason Astral stayed as close as they did in points is because of their Thief.

And all the other 4 players playing around the fact that tbey knew they had a thief comp. I mean, granted, Toker is one of the best thieves, but a thief comp is something the whole team knows how to play.

Here’s the problem.

When you balance your entire game around top level competitive play, you crate an evironment that is less attractive to new players.

When you have the massive population issues GW2 does, the last thing you need to do is phrase the game around esports. Heck, the last thing you need to do in any game is design it around esports.

Esports will not pay your studio’s bills. Riot does not turn the numbers it does because of esports. Same for Valve’s Counterstike and now DOTA properties. It funds esports because it has a very accessible, easy to learn game that has a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. All those scrubs are what keeps the game going, and those scrubs are ultimately the major portion of people playing your game.

GW2’s problem is that is has always had a very high skill floor, far too close to its skill ceiling. In addition it is a very difficult game to watch due to the large number of effects, similar visual tells, and a rather dull main competitive mode the actively encourages not using most of the map and fleeing rather than sticking out fights.

Conquest is a game type that is never exciting with such a small player count. This is one of the many reasons GW1’s PvP had a larger following. The basics of “kill the lord to win the match” were simply easier for the average player to understand and encouraged teamwork on the field more than map awareness and running to arbitrary points in the map that more often than not are completely devoid of enemies.

I don’t honestly think ESL should be considered for balance at all.

The pro league players simply don’t play anything like everyday pvp. This is particularly true in solo queue.

It makes no sense at all to accommodate such a small percentage of players at the expense of the majority.

Hes absolutly right with what he did state. Necro is like warrior but inferior and thief is like revenant but inferior.
That was actually the main problen from Na teams. Thief and necro does work. But only if the enemy comp plays with thief and necro as well. Against revenant and warrior comp you are in a disadvantage right from the start.

And you ALWAYS should balance from an esl point of view and never from a causal point of view where learn to play issues are considered with

can you balance sPvP around ESL classes if players don’t play with same rules?

Don’t forget unranked and ranked queue allow class stacking and we all know some stacked class are insane.

What about balancing around top PvP? Obv casual/average pvp should not affect balance, and Pro League PvP is about competitivity more than fun. If top PvP is balanced, Pro League PvP will be nearly balanced except for some clutch builds/comps that only work better in high skill/coordinated teams, which imo is a legit reason to be stronger.

You should not balance on casual players but if you sacrifice build diversity for Balance on ESL level you are going to destroy your large long term player base. As mentioned top level play is only a minority. So in the end for a MMO you need both but diversity > balance. But ruined balance leads to OP builds which destroys diversity ^^.
So you need a good balancing/designer team that is dedicated …

Pvt Frosty.6973:

Thats….simply not true.

Team PZ would have been steamrolled even if they played warrior and mes instead of nec/thief, their comp was awkward considering their personal playstyles and TCG was just simply way stronger mentally/individually.

And Astral Authority did NOT loose because of their comp, they lost because of small mistakes in decisionmaking or r55 executing their decisions better towards the end of each game. Toker actually did a LOT of work, and so did Nos.

Also +1ing the warrior as a thief is fine, but not if you +1 your rev (both of the classes with little condi remove), it can work but its extremely risky (AA was just in a situation where they had to try, and quite franky was just really well played by Texbi).

TCG blowing out both teams also has NOTHING to do with classbalance lol they pretty much played a mirror comp in the finals.

So please, think a little more next time before you try to ask for better balance….

So you are saying there is no coincidence that the NA teams who played thief and necro lost? PZ best game was when muffins got off of the thief.

Also saying they did work is not how you access a situation. Was toker all over the map, yes but he didnt bring anything other then decaps. When he tried to +1 the warrior didnt die and 1 of astral did.

There was multiple times where nos was alone/or in a 2 vs 2 fight without the engy or ele and he straight lost.

Here is the thing too, acting like astral could of won maybe 1 of the first 2 games is crazy. They were not gonna be able to save lord because they didnt have a mesmer and Rank 55 did. You saw the counter TCG had for rank 55 on legacy. Rank 55 also straight beat Astral on Kylo. If anything Rank 55 should of 3-0 Astral on the forest map.

Also your comment about mirror classes in the finals, what is that? Did you read my post? Also they blew out PZ 500-100 in games where as rank 55 at times were actually very competitive. Crazy thing the mirror comp was way more competitive, is that just a coincidence?

Jelzouki.4128:

Another thread where you showcase that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The only reason Astral stayed as close as they did in points is because of their Thief.

How do you figure? Those decaps were huge plays man except when he couldnt decap like on kylo. He also couldnt bring +1 to win fights such as temple. They actually lost the fight he +1.

Seriously think about it, many people there called toker the best thief in the game. He had little to no effect because TCG didnt run thief and im pretty sure they did ok. Jebro asked Levin if it would of been better had they basically ran a better comp.

I didnt ask that, lastly you never make any points. You state your opinion which never even has a fact in it. You have 2 teams from NA who prefer thief/necro builds and Eu prefer mesmer and warrior.

The 2 NA teams lost 6-1 and should of lost 6-0. Team PZ did better without the thief. Storm said that team PZ would have a much closer game because he wasnt playing thief. He said it it not me, toker the so called best thief in game. Not NA, not EU but in all of the game cant even give enough decaps or +1 enough fights to give Astral a legit win.

Once again this is me making a thread and you not bringing anything to the table other then you think he did a good job, which he did from the perspective he played a under powered thief class.

Why is it that everyone doing the play by play and interviews are making comments about the thief and necro, as the guys being ineffective from the perspective of the whole match. Not 1 play where nos made a good play or toker but the fact that threw a 12-15 minute game they were not as effective as the player they are countering. Other dude tells me to know what im talking about, i am literally using what the people in the room and the results of the match as criteria so what is your counter argument?

Wolfric.9380:

You should not balance on casual players but if you sacrifice build diversity for Balance on ESL level you are going to destroy your large long term player base. As mentioned top level play is only a minority. So in the end for a MMO you need both but diversity > balance. But ruined balance leads to OP builds which destroys diversity ^^.
So you need a good balancing/designer team that is dedicated …

Ive found the balance to be less then less over the years even before HOT. In a AG tourney there was a staff/conjure ele who won a 1 vs 1 vs the OP d/d ele. They nerfed conjure weapons so another build went out the door.

I truly do not know how or why they balance certain things the way they do. All i know is you cant cater to the ineffectiveness of certain players. Example, in the NBA they want to change the free throw rule. 99% of the former players and current players dont want it changed. They will change it for the viewers of the game.

Instead of telling the players to get better at free throws they are trying to make it easier for the bad players. A better example was the 3 point line change in 93-94. They shortened the distance by 2-3 feet. What happened was it was to easy for the pro players. They changed the 3 point line back the next year.

Im not sure about you but in regular ranked games, who ever the better player are win not matter the class. At the ESL level from what i saw, all anyone could talk about was the mesmer to thief aspect and imo the necro be lesser then the warrior. Cant have that in a actual PRO LEAGUE.

kdaddy.5431:

Im not sure about you but in regular ranked games, who ever the better player are win not matter the class. At the ESL level from what i saw, all anyone could talk about was the mesmer to thief aspect and imo the necro be lesser then the warrior.

^
TCG and Rank 55 did even confirm it themself that nec and thief does work but is simply inferior to revenant/warrior comps. You have to play much more properly and are still in a slight disadvantage. So to say that thief and necro comp is equal to warrior/rev is just wrong and that PZ would have lost against TCG anyways even with a different composition doesn’t matter at all.

Then people telling how great Toker was on thief and how great Nos was on nec – they indeed were absolutly amazing and from what I’ve seen astral played much more impressive than rank 55 somehow – and that’s the point, they still lost. You simply can do much less mistakes and wrong decisions with a rev/warrior comp not to mention that the classes themself are way easier to play.

And I’m 100% sure neither PZ nor Astral would have played necro/thief comp if they scrimed EU comps more often before. Necro just sucks in comparison to warrior and a thief simply will create a more complicated game to yourself by making rotations way harder.

dominik.9721:

kdaddy.5431:

Im not sure about you but in regular ranked games, who ever the better player are win not matter the class. At the ESL level from what i saw, all anyone could talk about was the mesmer to thief aspect and imo the necro be lesser then the warrior. Cant have that in a actual PRO LEAGUE.

^
TCG and Rank 55 did even confirm it themself that nec and thief does work but is simply inferior to revenant/warrior comps. You have to play much more properly and are still in a slight disadvantage. So to say that thief and necro comp is equal to warrior/rev is just wrong.

Im 100% sure neither PZ nor Astral would have played necro/thief comp if they scrimed EU comps before.

EU>NA tho

I don’ think we need to argue about this, we all know this proven fact

dominik.9721:

I don’ think we need to argue about this, we all know this proven fact

But The Abjured with OE is 1-0

kdaddy.5431:

So you are saying there is no coincidence that the NA teams who played thief and necro lost? PZ best game was when muffins got off of the thief.

Best PZ game was indeed when muffins got off the thief because he is a much better mesmer than he is a thief (in terms of his character and he has been playing it for far longer aswell).

kdaddy.5431:

Also saying they did work is not how you access a situation. Was toker all over the map, yes but he didnt bring anything other then decaps. When he tried to +1 the warrior didnt die and 1 of astral did.

Similarly Toker nearly won the fight against Levin and killed/won against Misha. So I kinda totally disagree that Thief is just straight up a worse version then Rev (especially since it did not even take the rev spot in their comp).

kdaddy.5431:

There was multiple times where nos was alone/or in a 2 vs 2 fight without the engy or ele and he straight lost.

I don’t remember a situation like that, but if it did happen, then it was a rotation issue on AAs part.

kdaddy.5431:

Here is the thing too, acting like astral could of won maybe 1 of the first 2 games is crazy. They were not gonna be able to save lord because they didnt have a mesmer and Rank 55 did. You saw the counter TCG had for rank 55 on legacy. Rank 55 also straight beat Astral on Kylo. If anything Rank 55 should of 3-0 Astral on the forest map.

Sigh. This is getting ridiculous. As soon as r55 lordrush-portaled, they won the game. AA needed to either a) do it first or b) kill Misha or c) actually be prepared for the portal. It took them way too hard by surprise

kdaddy.5431:

Also your comment about mirror classes in the finals, what is that? Did you read my post? Also they blew out PZ 500-100 in games where as rank 55 at times were actually very competitive. Crazy thing the mirror comp was way more competitive, is that just a coincidence?

I’m not even gna bother anymore

Pvt Frosty.6973:

kdaddy.5431:

So you are saying there is no coincidence that the NA teams who played thief and necro lost? PZ best game was when muffins got off of the thief.

Best PZ game was indeed when muffins got off the thief because he is a much better mesmer than he is a thief (in terms of his character and he has been playing it for far longer aswell).

kdaddy.5431:

Also saying they did work is not how you access a situation. Was toker all over the map, yes but he didnt bring anything other then decaps. When he tried to +1 the warrior didnt die and 1 of astral did.

Similarly Toker nearly won the fight against Levin and killed/won against Misha. So I kinda totally disagree that Thief is just straight up a worse version then Rev (especially since it did not even take the rev spot in their comp).

kdaddy.5431:

There was multiple times where nos was alone/or in a 2 vs 2 fight without the engy or ele and he straight lost.

I don’t remember a situation like that, but if it did happen, then it was a rotation issue on AAs part.

kdaddy.5431:

Here is the thing too, acting like astral could of won maybe 1 of the first 2 games is crazy. They were not gonna be able to save lord because they didnt have a mesmer and Rank 55 did. You saw the counter TCG had for rank 55 on legacy. Rank 55 also straight beat Astral on Kylo. If anything Rank 55 should of 3-0 Astral on the forest map.

Sigh. This is getting ridiculous. As soon as r55 lordrush-portaled, they won the game. AA needed to either a) do it first or b) kill Misha or c) actually be prepared for the portal. It took them way too hard by surprise

kdaddy.5431:

Also your comment about mirror classes in the finals, what is that? Did you read my post? Also they blew out PZ 500-100 in games where as rank 55 at times were actually very competitive. Crazy thing the mirror comp was way more competitive, is that just a coincidence?

I’m not even gna bother anymore

A few things here,

1- you are picking and choosing the arguments you want to present. For instance toker nearly killed someone. You wrote that as a actual point. And that he did in fact win a fight. The best thief in the game won a fight, so now he gets a gold star for a 30-60 match up he actually won. In a 12-15 min game he gave them a +3-4 minutes of positive game play as a team. This isnt knocking him as a player but the role he is in and the class he is in which is created by Anet. He playing thief costed his team a chance to win imo.

2- Muffins played thief for years and now that hes playing mesmer we are gonna say hes better at it? Thats fine if you want, hes a thief main and coming from NA (which want to play thief and necro) the 2nd that thief might possibly be usable he took a chance at it. How can you sit here and say hes better at mesmer when mesmer overall is just a better class?

3- Rotation issue you say, thats why Astral lost? You say rotation issue and i say warrior and mesmer are far better/complete classes then thief and necro.

4- The portal play on legacy just adds to my argument which you are missing. Thief role was decap and +1 and toker did his best and it seemed ineffective at times. The mesmer from rank 55/TCG made alot of plays that are stand out. To the point the Helseth is clowning NA for not having any good mesmers. Helseth by the people there commenting wasnt even the best mesmer there and here we have the best thief in the game unable to make 1/2 the plays a mesmer can. I was trying to point out how having the mesmer allowed counter options for defense or offense which TCG could do and AA could not.

5- Please you shouldnt bother because your just being argumentative. Just like your friend Jelzouki you are just picking outs you can actually debate. You have no counter answer for the many things the shout casters and play by play guys were saying. All the NA games you heard things like he cant do anything there hes a thief, Nos cant be left alone because he needs support on necro and so on and so on.

All i said was i felt NA lost because necro/ thief looked a little under powered. You wrote that i should think before asking for better balance.

When other people in this thread agree with me, others posted that the ESL players from EU said themselves that the necro/thief is a lesser team comp.

If you wanted to say that EU is just better, that would actually be a better argument/debate. Instead you and another decided to act like i have no idea what im talking about but im using the actual things said by the people doing the play by play.

Im literally taking what i felt i saw, adding in the words of heirux,storm, jebro, said during the event and adding my own comments. You used that toker nearly won a fight against levin as a reasonable answer to use thief. You literally gave toker a golden ribbon for trying his best………………………..

dominik.9721:

kdaddy.5431:

Im not sure about you but in regular ranked games, who ever the better player are win not matter the class. At the ESL level from what i saw, all anyone could talk about was the mesmer to thief aspect and imo the necro be lesser then the warrior.

^
TCG and Rank 55 did even confirm it themself that nec and thief does work but is simply inferior to revenant/warrior comps. You have to play much more properly and are still in a slight disadvantage. So to say that thief and necro comp is equal to warrior/rev is just wrong and that PZ would have lost against TCG anyways even with a different composition doesn’t matter at all.

Then people telling how great Toker was on thief and how great Nos was on nec – they indeed were absolutly amazing and from what I’ve seen astral played much more impressive than rank 55 somehow – and that’s the point, they still lost. You simply can do much less mistakes and wrong decisions with a rev/warrior comp not to mention that the classes themself are way easier to play.

And I’m 100% sure neither PZ nor Astral wouldnt have played necro/thief comp if they scrimed EU comps more often before. Necro just sucks in comparison to warrior and a thief simply will create a more complicated game to yourself by making rotations way harder.

+1, Pvtfrosty what this guy said. Dont miss it