Guild Wars 2

Anet, I have made a [small] recompilation of some of the things that wont let this game shine as long as this things happen.

> High hp, high regen, disengage at will, insane CC, insane damage, immunity to all conditions and CC, all in one build. Yes, warriors.

> Conditions spamming. Conditions should be tactical, just like condition cleansing are, thats why you have most condition cleansing skills on 40-80 seconds CD and cleanse only 2-3 conditions. Yet you have abilities that spam more than 2-3 conditions in 8-12 secs CD, some go as far as spamming it on ever autoattack.

> AI still too strong, nobody likes to go to a PvP to play PvE, only to be eaten by people who have never played the class before and are just running around. It is not fun to watch as an observer, it is not fun for the losing aprty, and the winning party doesnt feel any reward other than simply running around and getting points.

> Insta bursts. This is mostly about 10k Backstabs and 7-8k HS, isntant, from stealth, without any counter, same as AI, not fun to watch, no skills required.Yes, Im an ele defender but I admit that scepter needs some tuning down. Not because it is OP, but because it is not letting the real problem get addressed.

Let me explain a very important point. This is something that has killed many games in competitive environment. First you have to take into account 3 group of players; Your Team, Enemy Team, Observers.

For the health of the game, I advise you to fix it ASAP, because this is what killed SC 1 when zerg rush came out. Brain dead easy, effective, but required no skills. What happened to the community? When someone does this to good players it negates any skills they have acquire, the game becomes a cheap excuse, therefore these players leave. The ones that used the cheap technique think of themselves as good players, and when they start to experiment outside said build (either out of boredom, because all thats left is said build or because like in SC1, it got nerfed) they dont do well outside of it, but they fail to realize that they now need to improve themselves, they still think of themselves as good players, their “rank” drops and so they also start quitting. Then you have the observer, which gets no satisfaction from seeing people blow in a second without any legit counter, or get melted by invisible conditions which, once again, adds no counterplay, or simply get bored of trying to figure out whats going on in the midst of all those minions and pets.

But dont take my word for it, watch this video, it explains in detail the problem. I want to see the game to succeed, but you have to start somewhere.

Another Extra Credits quote, noooooooooooooooooooo.

Edit: Nobody disagrees with you. But a full rework of thief, warrior, and condition applying skills is more than is reasonable to get done.

No dimishing returns on crowd control effects, insane bursts, massive condition dumping and ridiculous passive survivability are the four great offenders of the current meta. It all comes back to one problem and that problem is power creep. It’s time to wear the big boy pants and let that nerf hammer speak for itself.

Lol 10k backstab.. trust me if he hits you for 10k , he has
2k armor and 10k hp . And warriors yes the healing signet
allows you to faceroll stuff and the cleansing ire but if they fix
warrior necro would be OP . They need to nerf their signet only.

Counterplay;

Stealth is the biggest offender IMO. Lets take for example stealth in various games.

Usually stealth is a clutch, that comes with handicaps or interesting ways to counter. I will use the WoW and LoL example. In Wow stealth was permanent, with the draw back that if you blatantly walked in front of someone in an open field, you would have a great chance of being visible for a split of second. This created a counterplay wher eyou would actively look around for the thief, you would try to get in their shoes and step where they stepped. You knew that they were most likely going to come from the sides or behind. You could position yourself and your team accordingly, to make it so that they have to think about it. Rogue felt sneaky but at the same time vulnerable, if he failed at it he had a skill to go into forced stealth at a very long CD, so it was a meaningful skill that couldnt be spammed. Movement speed was lower than normal and under no reason could they take 90% to 100% of your life in 1 ability no matter how squishy you were. (this is coming from a glass cannon mage/resto druid, which reached 2.2k arena rating).

LoL, you have wards that have some cost but the benefices greatly outweight the drawbacks, since stealthy characters could also use said wards to clear enemy wards, same goes for the teammates of the stealthed units.

In most balanced games, stealth is by itself the reward!. Here? You get movement speed, insta nukes that cant be blocked by nothing, you get to spam it, you can heal on it, you can still have access to plenty of hard hitting skills that require no more than pressing #2 without minding your positioning, without any drawback except a couple of seconds CD in which you can repeat it all over again.

Same goes for AI, you ignore it, you die, you dont ignore it, you still die. Passive regen which cannot be skillfully interrupted, unmatched mobility, highest base hp, immunity, insane damage, no drawbacks. There is no depth to those things, there is no fun for the one in the receiving end, basically you are not playing agaisnt other players but rather trying to beat a unfair system.

A good video of counterplay and how it plays:

a t s e.9614:

Lol 10k backstab.. trust me if he hits you for 10k , he has
2k armor and 10k hp . And warriors yes the healing signet
allows you to faceroll stuff and the cleansing ire but if they fix
warrior necro would be OP . They need to nerf their signet only.

It is hilarious to watch badly played thieves who go in, burst someone and then die, most of them are jumping on the wagon and picked up the class a few days prior to that. Well played thieves get away with stealth, teleports, blinds and then go and repeat the combo on somebody else. Then those “new thief” players get decimated because they die to quickly and come to complain about how their class is UP.

But suddenly if we want to make skillful eles be able to get that amount of damage from nowhere without any warning nor casting and the ability to disengage like thieves at will, then everyone loses their mind.

\Double standards/

Fortus.6175:

disengage at will,

We can disengage at will?

Is Rush, Whirlwind attack and Savage leap not effected by immobilize, chill and cripple anymore?

Pro eles can win , maybe you need to learn your class a bit more .
I never said backstab hits for 2k , I said maybe whiners want
it to hit for 2k for a perfect balance . As I said S\F burst ele
is beter because it’s a RANGED burst . I don’t even play ele
and I know it’s strong in the hands of a GOOD player .

runeblade.7514:

Fortus.6175:

disengage at will,

We can disengage at will?

Is Rush, Whirlwind attack and Savage leap not effected by immobilize, chill and cripple anymore?

Berzerker Stance no working for you anymore? Brains to not use said skills when cripple/chilled/immo or to cleanse it not working anymore? I dunno man, if I have to choose in between having 3 disengages, one of them with 1550 range at the cost of only one cleanse, than having none at all, I would go with the warrior ones O_o

Fortus.6175:

runeblade.7514:

Fortus.6175:

disengage at will,

We can disengage at will?

Is Rush, Whirlwind attack and Savage leap not effected by immobilize, chill and cripple anymore?

Berzerker Stance no working for you anymore? Brains to not use said skills when cripple/chilled/immo or to cleanse it not working anymore? I dunno man, if I have to choose in between having 3 disengages, one of them with 1550 range at the cost of only one cleanse, than having none at all, I would go with the warrior ones O_o

So he gotta waste tankiness skills that could be used to be op in a fight to escape. okay.

a t s e.9614:

Pro eles can win , maybe you need to learn your class a bit more .
I never said backstab hits for 2k , I said maybe whiners want
it to hit for 2k for a perfect balance . As I said S\F burst ele
is beter because it’s a RANGED burst . I don’t even play ele
and I know it’s strong in the hands of a GOOD player .

Argument fallacy; “hey, im sure someone ou there must be doing well, everyone must be total noobs, im sure of it, yep, total nobs” Im well aware im not the best ele in the world, let alone in NA. Yet I have 1500 hours on my ele, so I would dare to say Im quite experienced (gasp!). But I see where you want to take this thread: “ele vs thief”, and I will stop you right on your tracks, this is not what this thread is about, this thread is about problems that affect the game overall. And if you bothered to read the Opening Post (gasp, I know, too hard, right!?) you will see I mentioned that scepter ele needed some tuning down (GASP!, im starting to run out of air) but not for the reasons you are saying, but rather because it is holding back the class from getting the fixes it needs, since right now we are coined into playing this one-trick pony that only works agaisnt inexperienced players who have no coordination, but in any respectable team, focus the non-stealth, lacking-clones, right-in-plain-view-with-only-1-cantrip ele and he wont be able to burst anyone because he will be too busy healing himself up or eating the ground.

runeblade.7514:

Fortus.6175:

runeblade.7514:

Fortus.6175:

disengage at will,

We can disengage at will?

Is Rush, Whirlwind attack and Savage leap not effected by immobilize, chill and cripple anymore?

Berzerker Stance no working for you anymore? Brains to not use said skills when cripple/chilled/immo or to cleanse it not working anymore? I dunno man, if I have to choose in between having 3 disengages, one of them with 1550 range at the cost of only one cleanse, than having none at all, I would go with the warrior ones O_o

So he gotta waste tankiness skills that could be used to be op in a fight to escape. okay.

I know right?! A warrior having to make a mindful decision every profession has to make, the horror!

Fortus.6175:

a t s e.9614:

Lol 10k backstab.. trust me if he hits you for 10k , he has
2k armor and 10k hp . And warriors yes the healing signet
allows you to faceroll stuff and the cleansing ire but if they fix
warrior necro would be OP . They need to nerf their signet only.

It is hilarious to watch badly played thieves who go in, burst someone and then die, most of them are jumping on the wagon and picked up the class a few days prior to that. Well played thieves get away with stealth, teleports, blinds and then go and repeat the combo on somebody else. Then those “new thief” players get decimated because they die to quickly and come to complain about how their class is UP.

But suddenly if we want to make skillful eles be able to get that amount of damage from nowhere without any warning nor casting and the ability to disengage like thieves at will, then everyone loses their mind.

\Double standards/

The perma stealth & instagib thieves are troll thieves and should be compared to kill shot warriors. People play them because they want to wind up people, not because they want to win the match. These thieves don’t have enough mobility to roam properly, nor can they defend a point.

-“A small community of players.”-I’d bet less than 1% of ppl who bought gw2 on day 1 still pvp today

-skill means nothing on a tiny map where any old roamer can come up and gank the best engagement you’ve had all day. There is no tactic to being stomped from behind

-“leave new comers feeling alienated”- that’s what skill splitting does. The new player now has no recognition of the skills they’ve come to know in PvE. Balancing skills off 1% of players in one sector is asinine.

“Noob tube”-an effective means for new comers to have a chance vs veterans. “It benefits the game.” You post video supports the idea of a profession that allows new players to have a chance. Warrior is decidedly one of the most regularly picked professions. Hammer is user friendly. It makes sense.

“progressive development of skill” With only one game mode, there is a ceiling. There is only so many ways to approach a node and hold it. It is node holding that wins matches, not stomps.

You may as well just ask for pinball to be more balanced. It seems apparent that gw2 pvp most benefits from just pound-pound-pound..don’t take it too seriously. If you crave some form of elite skill use game play, maybe pick another game and just leave gw2 for days you feel like entertainment..but hair trigger reflexes/god like skill use is n not going happen in this game. Even if it did, there is no rewards for it and only an endless quest of grinding for skins and a title that was diminished from skyhammer farming. These balance threads are like watching a blind man in a dark room looking for a black hat that doesn’t exist and insisting it is there..you just need to work a little harder to find it.

Fortus.6175:

Counterplay;

Stealth is the biggest offender IMO. Lets take for example stealth in various games.

Usually stealth is a clutch, that comes with handicaps or interesting ways to counter. I will use the WoW and LoL example. In Wow stealth was permanent, with the draw back that if you blatantly walked in front of someone in an open field, you would have a great chance of being visible for a split of second. This created a counterplay wher eyou would actively look around for the thief, you would try to get in their shoes and step where they stepped. You knew that they were most likely going to come from the sides or behind. You could position yourself and your team accordingly, to make it so that they have to think about it.

And this game doesn’t require you to have a target to activate any of your skills, like something like WoW does – You do the same thing in this game. D/P – SB thief stealthed? I wonder where he might be trying to go…. (hint, it’s behind you) – use your autoattacks and AoE. See a black powder pop up out of nowhere? There’s a thief extending his stealth, and lucky you, he just told you exactly where he was before he leapt – keep a mental note of roughly how much longer he’ll have stealth, and play accordingly.

Rogue felt sneaky but at the same time vulnerable, if he failed at it he had a skill to go into forced stealth at a very long CD, so it was a meaningful skill that couldnt be spammed. Movement speed was lower than normal and under no reason could they take 90% to 100% of your life in 1 ability no matter how squishy you were. (this is coming from a glass cannon mage/resto druid, which reached 2k arena rating).

What Game are you playing where a thief takes 90% – 100% of your HP in 1 strike? This is beyond an exaggeration, it’s an outright lie. A 9-10k BS is GC vs GC blowing every utility to boost their damage and having traits slotted that are entirely dedicated to buffing that one strike. Even then, it’s likely out of 13-14k HP minimum- if you built your character with 10k HP (only possible with 3 classes, btw), then that’s on you – you made the choice to be a squishy DPS monster with all its associated strengths and weaknesses, you need to watch out for other squishy DPS monsters.

In most balanced games, stealth is by itself the reward!. Here? You get movement speed, insta nukes that cant be blocked by nothing, you get to spam it, you can heal on it, you can still have access to plenty of hard hitting skills that require no more than pressing #2 without minding your positioning, without any drawback except a couple of seconds CD in which you can repeat it all over again.

In this game, stealth is a liability! You can’t contest points in stealth, and seeing as CP is the only game type, that’s a pretty big deal. You also can’t launch any attacks and retain stealth (except a few Passive-style AoE’s like choking gas and caltrops).
You only get movement speed if you trait for it…like in other games I’ve played. Stealth in this game lasts 3-4s, as opposed to other games where it lasts 30s or is permanent – if thieves moved more slowly in stealth, they’d never be able to maneuver behind an opponent, because nobody worth their salt stands still in a PvP match, Especially when a thief stealth’s near them.
There isn’t a single stealth skill that’s unblockable, so I don’t know where you got that from. Neither are they spammable, because landing a stealth attack gives you revealed for 4s.
You’re still complaining about Heart seeker? It’s almost 2014 man, people learned how Heart seeker worked over a year ago.

This reads like you’ve never fought a thief, much less rolled one and tried it out. Go roll a thief, play for 20 minutes, and see how ridiculously inaccurate everything you’ve said is.

thieves are already underpowered no need to ask for a nerf. :-(

Yes while I do agree that there should be certain traits and weapon for certain which are noob friendly, I also believe these shouldnt be more effective than aything else, which is the point of this thread.

It creates this false sense of skills in the game, and then you have players which come to the forums defending their [OP] classes since at their level of skills, they are still getting beaten playing them, but a skilled player will not only make the OPness of their class shine, but make it painfully obvious.

Example; take a warrior. Most warriors dont know when to disengage, they go all in and use bezerker stance right off the bat. These warriors are bad, really bad, but most of the time they are effective, because during that time, it is very difficult to stop the pain that will come your way. A good warrior will not only time said skill for when it is really necessary, but will also know when to use their GS skills to disengage if they feel they are not going to win (and given that warriors have the best mobility in the game), a well played warrior that knows what he is doing will not die easily, if at all, unless more than 2-3 people completely coordinate all their CCs to have a cahnce.

Same for thieves. A badly played thief (pretty much most of those who picked up the class and have little understanding of what they can do) will blow in teamfights, they wont know how to use stealth effectively and will run in straight lines which makes them walk right into AoE. A thief that knows what he is doing will not cast stealth right in front of any enemy, which makes said enemy weary of thier presence. A god thief will sneak around, cast a 10k backstab and back away, after the enemy wastes some long CDs in the hope to hit them, the thief will repeat said 10k backstab, apply blindness if necessary, will dodge if necessary, will teleport if necessary, instead of all the newbs who spam HS HS HS. After the enemy is out of dodges, the thief will use HS for a guaranteed 7-8k it.

The problem isnt that those two arent newb friendly, on the hands on a newb they are “balanced” and thats what they think they are because they dont know any better. In the hands of someone with a clue they are OP and greatly outdo anyone. This goes to well played spirit rangers, S/D and D/D thieves, warrior, condi necro, minion necro, etc etc

The great thing about these forums is that everyone can voice their opinion as long as it’s not breaking the forum’s rules. What I challenge people to do is to look up the stats on the people making suggestions on balance. Try something like gwshack to see a person’s history on the leader board. Then, decide of you trust someone’s opinion about spvp balance by knowing their rank. Finally, if they’re not ranked it means they have not completed 11 games of tpvp and/or solo queue. Knowledge is power

FYI, in case anyone cares, thieves don’t have guaranteed 7-8k HS in spvp.

Cheers!

Hype.8032:

The great thing about these forums is that everyone can voice their opinion as long as it’s not breaking the forum’s rules. What I challenge people to do is to look up the stats on the people making suggestions on balance. Try something like gwshack to see a person’s history on the leader board. Then, decide of you trust someone’s opinion about spvp balance by knowing their rank. Finally, if they’re not ranked it means they have not completed 11 games of tpvp and/or solo queue. Knowledge is power

FYI, in case anyone cares, thieves don’t have guaranteed 7-8k HS in spvp.

Cheers!

Disregarding the opinion of non-top-100 players is another thing that kills many games. Just because person has decided not to invest time into grinding for a leaderscore place doesnt mean they dont know what they are doing. Personally i find that the game is so unbalanced that it boils down to whoever has the strongest specc rather than skills. The fact that there was no ele in the last MLG and there was only 1 ele in the other pro scene (which costed them the game) , coupled with the fact that there was around 3x% zoo pet ranger (more than the combined ratio of 3 classes) tells you a whole lot about this! The more you know

Yes, certainly they dont hit 7-8k everytime, sometimes it doesnt crit and it hits for about 2-3k, but lets be honest, do you REALLY think it takes all that much skill to take a 15k hp class with 2.8k toughness down to 0hp in less than (not exaggerating here) 1.5 seconds? 9k BS followed by 3k HS and a 5k HS (which is overkill) for which you cant see at all or use Aegis nor any other block, and even if you dodge one the next HS will come shortly after. Do you really believe so? Cmon! Lets get real. Sure is fun for the thief, but as an observer if I see this the first thing Im going to do is mouse over the [x] button on the tab. If I enter a match and see a ranger using #1 skill and running, see the poor ele blow in a sec without any notice, after said ele stunlocked the ranger the entire time but still the ele dies a horrific death, yes, i (and many others) will hit the [x].

You really have to take those things into considerations. Fights that last too long are boring, but fights that last less than 1 seconds are even more boring.

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

The great thing about these forums is that everyone can voice their opinion as long as it’s not breaking the forum’s rules. What I challenge people to do is to look up the stats on the people making suggestions on balance. Try something like gwshack to see a person’s history on the leader board. Then, decide of you trust someone’s opinion about spvp balance by knowing their rank. Finally, if they’re not ranked it means they have not completed 11 games of tpvp and/or solo queue. Knowledge is power

FYI, in case anyone cares, thieves don’t have guaranteed 7-8k HS in spvp.

Cheers!

Disregarding the opinion of non-top-100 players is another thing that kills many games. Just because person has decided not to invest time into grinding for a leaderscore place doesnt mean they dont know what they are doing. Personally i find that the game is so unbalanced that it boils down to whoever has the strongest specc rather than skills. The fact that there was no ele in the last MLG and there was only 1 ele in the other pro scene (which costed them the game) , coupled with the fact that there was around 3x% zoo pet ranger (more than the combined ratio of 3 classes) tells you a whole lot about this! The more you know

Yes, certainly they dont hit 7-8k everytime, sometimes it doesnt crit and it hits for about 2-3k, but lets be honest, do you REALLY think it takes all that much skill to take a 15k hp class with 2.8k toughness down to 0hp in less than (not exaggerating here) 1.5 seconds? 9k BS followed by 3k HS and a 5k HS (which is overkill) for which you cant see at all or use Aegis nor any other block, and even if you dodge one the next HS will come shortly after. Do you really believe so? Cmon! Lets get real. Sure is fun for the thief, but as an observer if I see this the first thing Im going to do is mouse over the [x] button on the tab. If I enter a match and see a ranger using #1 skill and running, see the poor ele blow in a sec without any notice, after said ele stunlocked the ranger the entire time but still the ele dies a horrific death, yes, i (and many others) will hit the [x].

You really have to take those things into considerations. Fights that last too long are boring, but fights that last less than 1 seconds are even more boring.

I didn’t say ignore all opinions of those not in top 100. What I did say is that you can tell a lot about someone’s skill by their place on the leaderboard. I question the spvp knowledge of anyone not even ranked. It only takes 11 games to be ranked and many people get into the top 1000 with those first 11 games. It is not a grind at all and it’s quite exciting.

Fortus.6175:

Yes, certainly they dont hit 7-8k everytime, sometimes it doesnt crit and it hits for about 2-3k, but lets be honest, do you REALLY think it takes all that much skill to take a 15k hp class with 2.8k toughness down to 0hp in less than (not exaggerating here) 1.5 seconds? 9k BS followed by 3k HS and a 5k HS (which is overkill)

I’m sorry but you are in fact exaggerating there. On an opponent with 2.8k toughness that thief will be hitting a BS for ~5k, which might not crit or hits in the front so average is closer to 3k. Following that BS with a HS is a very bad decision but if you chose to do it you’d hit for 3k if you crit, another one would be another 3k probably. So, an opponent (2.8k toughness) that stood perfectly still for a period of time that is well over a reasonable reaction time, would have been hit for 9-11k. Their heal should then be enough to take them nearly back to full health. In reality, that opponent would have dodged or pop’d a defensive skill after the BS and avoided most the damage. You are flat out wrong about this but I don’t want to discourage you to keep learning and improve your knowledge.

If you still disagree with me then I’d like to issue this friendly challenge. I think it takes a lot of skill to play thief well enough to get to the top 1000. However, your post seems to indicate thief is easy to be successful with. So here it is: make a thief if you haven’t yet and play enough solo queue games to get ranked. Then we can review the results and discuss further how hard or difficult it was.

Thanks for the discussion!

Hype.8032:

snip

Nope, guardian here, 15k hp, 2.7k toughness almost 2.8k, dont have screenshot but I have definitely been hit for 8-9k BS, and 5-6k HS, on my ele 9-10k in valkiry (ele in valkiri has 11k hp) and 10-11k BS on zerker are normal sightings too.

edit: No, I wont bother to climb a ladder to prove my point, so either take my word and about everyone else’s word for it or simply drop it because we are not going to get anywhere any time soon.

I can guarantee you that many(not all, but many) of those people high above 1000 have been “carried” by cheap cheese builds, just like it happened in SC1 with zerg rush. What happened when it got nerfed? Or when Xin Zhao or Vayne or Ezreal got nerfed in LoL? Bunch of people’s ranks plummeted, and we are not talking about small figures here! I wont bother to go farm rank here in the hopes I get a team with bad builds agaisnt my strong builds. The few times I have done tournaments they have been plagged with FoTM builds, enough to deter me from playing it.

3 hammer/LB warrior, another game 2 condi necro and 2 spirit ranger , both games games in a row, most games boild to that; pick the OP combo for better cahnces to win rather than truly display skills with an “alternative” build to the cheese builds.

Fortus.6175:

Nope, guardian here, 15k hp, 2.7k toughness almost 2.8k, dont have screenshot but I have definitely been hit for 8-9k BS, and 5-6k HS, on my ele 9-10k in valkiry (ele in valkiri has 11k hp) and 10-11k BS on zerker are normal sightings too.

So the highest HS you’ve seen on your guard is 6k? Were you not claiming a guaranteed 7-8k crit in an earlier post? A 9k BS on a guardian in spvp is like seeing a 3 horned unicorn (think about that for a second). A trickery based d/p thief in spvp (this is one very small step away from being maxed thief dps) will hit that guardian for 5-6k BS assuming it crits and hits from behind. Finally, why are you talking about the low ele health pool? My thief has that same health pool with that gear. Are you claiming ele burst isn’t as high as a thief? O_o I sure hope you’re not.

Fortus.6175:

No, I wont bother to climb a ladder to prove my point, so either take my word

I don’t take your word for it. Why would I when you’re spreading misinformation around? Most people know better but newer people might actually believe you!

When you construct your arguments on a solid foundation based on fact they carry a lot more weight.

Fortus.6175:

No, I wont bother to climb a ladder to prove my point, so either take my word and about everyone else’s word for it or simply drop it because we are not going to get anywhere any time soon.

I can guarantee you that many(not all, but many) of those people high above 1000 have been “carried” by cheap cheese builds, just like it happened in SC1 with zerg rush. What happened when it got nerfed? Or when Xin Zhao or Vayne or Ezreal got nerfed in LoL? Bunch of people’s ranks plummeted, and we are not talking about small figures here! I wont bother to go farm rank here in the hopes I get a team with bad builds agaisnt my strong builds. The few times I have done tournaments they have been plagged with FoTM builds, enough to deter me from playing it.

3 hammer/LB warrior, another game 2 condi necro and 2 spirit ranger , both games games in a row, most games boild to that; pick the OP combo for better cahnces to win rather than truly display skills with an “alternative” build to the cheese builds.

I hear you, but unfortunately A-net doesn’t realize any of this and the forum community is more worried about justifying terrible play.

Good posts, and good points but nothing is going to be done. Even if something is done it’ll be a long time with their “slow changes” and the supposed big reworks don’t change anything.

Try again in the 4th quarter of 2014 then maybe.

Hype.8032:

snip

WHo would have guess, a person playing more than one class, one build, right? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, I dont play tanky guardian all the time? Is it even justifiable to hit 9-10k on a class with 11k hp, even if you are an assassin? No.

I dont care if the thief blows in about 2-3 hits, most of the time they stealth too quickly to be able to do anything about it anyways. I dont want more rock/scissor/paper gameplay. I want interactions! I dont want a game where the first one to jump on the other wins, and right now, given the lack of counters to stealth, a thief will have the jump on you 99% of the time.

No sir, this is not healthy for any game, I wont name any more games, but I can guarantee you that any non-FPS game where battle is decided by whoever gets the first jump or by rock/paper/scissor will get as much esport attentions as hello kitty.

And like I said, once again, you only want to take into consideration “top” players, which might not even represent the “skilled” bunch, nor the majority. Should we ignore the people in a democracy and let a selected few have the saying? No, it is called dictatorship, because I can assure you (been born in a dictatorship myself) they dont know whats best!

A 1000 ranked person has a much say in the matter as a non-1000, learn to accept that, or live to see that you will only see 1000 players in sPvP, which is [sadly] becoming a reality already.

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

snip

WHo would have guess, a person playing more than one class, one build, right? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, I dont play tanky guardian all the time? Is it even justifiable to hit 9-10k on a class with 11k hp, even if you are an assassin? No.

I dont care if the thief blows in about 2-3 hits, most of the time they stealth too quickly to be able to do anything about it anyways. I dont want more rock/scissor/paper gameplay. I want interactions! I dont want a game where the first one to jump on the other wins, and right now, given the lack of counters to stealth, a thief will have the jump on you 99% of the time.

No sir, this is not healthy for any game, I wont name any more games, but I can guarantee you that any non-FPS game where battle is decided by whoever gets the first jump or by rock/paper/scissor will get as much esport attentions as hello kitty.

And like I said, once again, you only want to take into consideration “top” players, which might not even represent the “skilled” bunch, nor the majority. Should we ignore the people in a democracy and let a selected few have the saying? No, it is called dictatorship, because I can assure you (been born in a dictatorship myself) they dont know whats best!

A 1000 ranked person has a much say in the matter as a non-1000, learn to accept that, or live to see that you will only see 1000 players in sPvP, which is [sadly] becoming a reality already.

Wow you played the dictatorship card! That’s awesome! That’s an auto-win move in my book.

The numbers you’re basing your argument on are wrong so I find fault with it. Fix them and we can have a deeper conversation. Annnnddddd….. since you asked, I think it is VERY JUSTIFIABLE AND DESIRED for an extreme glass cannon to be able to VERY QUICKLY dispatch of another extreme glass cannon. It is extremely fun knowing you have to be so aware of your surroundings to stay alive. It is very rewarding when you do it right. For people that don’t like living on the edge there are more balanced and even bunker builds available to them. This game is fast paced and it is awesome because of it.

Cheers!

P.S. I don’t think you understand what 99% means. That means 99 times out of a 100 fyi. You just claimed that out of 100 engagements the thief will have the jump 99 times. Four horned unicorn this time?

Hype.8032:

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

snip

WHo would have guess, a person playing more than one class, one build, right? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, I dont play tanky guardian all the time? Is it even justifiable to hit 9-10k on a class with 11k hp, even if you are an assassin? No.

I dont care if the thief blows in about 2-3 hits, most of the time they stealth too quickly to be able to do anything about it anyways. I dont want more rock/scissor/paper gameplay. I want interactions! I dont want a game where the first one to jump on the other wins, and right now, given the lack of counters to stealth, a thief will have the jump on you 99% of the time.

No sir, this is not healthy for any game, I wont name any more games, but I can guarantee you that any non-FPS game where battle is decided by whoever gets the first jump or by rock/paper/scissor will get as much esport attentions as hello kitty.

And like I said, once again, you only want to take into consideration “top” players, which might not even represent the “skilled” bunch, nor the majority. Should we ignore the people in a democracy and let a selected few have the saying? No, it is called dictatorship, because I can assure you (been born in a dictatorship myself) they dont know whats best!

A 1000 ranked person has a much say in the matter as a non-1000, learn to accept that, or live to see that you will only see 1000 players in sPvP, which is [sadly] becoming a reality already.

Wow you played the dictatorship card! That’s awesome! That’s an auto-win move in my book.

The numbers you’re basing your argument on are wrong so I find fault with it. Fix them and we can have a deeper conversation. Annnnddddd….. since you asked, I think it is VERY JUSTIFIABLE AND DESIRED for an extreme glass cannon to be able to VERY QUICKLY dispatch of another extreme glass cannon. It is extremely fun knowing you have to be so aware of your surroundings to stay alive. It is very rewarding when you do it right. For people that don’t like living on the edge there are more balanced and even bunker builds available to them. This game is fast paced and it is awesome because of it.

Cheers!

P.S. I don’t think you understand what 99% means. That means 99 times out of a 100 fyi. You just claimed that out of 100 engagements the thief will have the jump 99 times. Four horned unicorn this time?

-sigh-, ok, I now understand whats going on, you just want to derail the thread, aka, old-school trolling.

Thanks sir but I will now refrain myself lowering to that. Thanks for the “arguments” but I believe there is nothing else you can add to this discussion since you are purposely trying to sabotage it.

I will however leave you with a note;

99% means 99 out of 100 times,meaning that whoever has stealth will engage first most of the time, hint; eles dont have stealth.

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

Fortus.6175:

Hype.8032:

snip

WHo would have guess, a person playing more than one class, one build, right? Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, I dont play tanky guardian all the time? Is it even justifiable to hit 9-10k on a class with 11k hp, even if you are an assassin? No.

I dont care if the thief blows in about 2-3 hits, most of the time they stealth too quickly to be able to do anything about it anyways. I dont want more rock/scissor/paper gameplay. I want interactions! I dont want a game where the first one to jump on the other wins, and right now, given the lack of counters to stealth, a thief will have the jump on you 99% of the time.

No sir, this is not healthy for any game, I wont name any more games, but I can guarantee you that any non-FPS game where battle is decided by whoever gets the first jump or by rock/paper/scissor will get as much esport attentions as hello kitty.

And like I said, once again, you only want to take into consideration “top” players, which might not even represent the “skilled” bunch, nor the majority. Should we ignore the people in a democracy and let a selected few have the saying? No, it is called dictatorship, because I can assure you (been born in a dictatorship myself) they dont know whats best!

A 1000 ranked person has a much say in the matter as a non-1000, learn to accept that, or live to see that you will only see 1000 players in sPvP, which is [sadly] becoming a reality already.

Wow you played the dictatorship card! That’s awesome! That’s an auto-win move in my book.

The numbers you’re basing your argument on are wrong so I find fault with it. Fix them and we can have a deeper conversation. Annnnddddd….. since you asked, I think it is VERY JUSTIFIABLE AND DESIRED for an extreme glass cannon to be able to VERY QUICKLY dispatch of another extreme glass cannon. It is extremely fun knowing you have to be so aware of your surroundings to stay alive. It is very rewarding when you do it right. For people that don’t like living on the edge there are more balanced and even bunker builds available to them. This game is fast paced and it is awesome because of it.

Cheers!

P.S. I don’t think you understand what 99% means. That means 99 times out of a 100 fyi. You just claimed that out of 100 engagements the thief will have the jump 99 times. Four horned unicorn this time?

-sigh-, ok, I now understand whats going on, you just want to derail the thread, aka, old-school trolling.

Thanks sir but I will now refrain myself lowering to that. Thanks for the “arguments” but I believe there is nothing else you can add to this discussion since you are purposely trying to sabotage it.

I will however leave you with a note;

99% means 99 out of 100 times,meaning that whoever has stealth will engage first most of the time, hint; eles dont have stealth.

No, he’s pointing out the myriad flaws in your poor argument full of exaggeration, hyperbole, and outright lies. You don’t like it because it challenges the firmly anchored notions you have, which are incorrect on almost every level. Labeling him a troll is your only escape from having to actually try some of the things he’s suggested and see how very wrong you are. He’s been very calm and polite in tasking you to actually perform the things you’ve claimed are so commonplace that they’re ruining the game and you can’t deliver (because it can’t be done, not because of you specifically).

Your position on thieves in analogous to claiming thieves can fly – it’s not a discussion unless the basic premise is plausible, and yours just isn’t.

evilapprentice.6379:

No, he’s pointing out the myriad flaws in your poor argument full of exaggeration, hyperbole, and outright lies. You don’t like it because it challenges the firmly anchored notions you have, which are incorrect on almost every level. Labeling him a troll if your only escape from having to actually try some of the things he’s suggested and see how very wrong you are. He’s been very calm and polite in tasking you to actually perform the things you’ve claimed are so commonplace that they’re ruining the game and you can’t deliver (because it can’t be done, not because of you specifically).

Your position on thieves in analogous to claiming thieves can fly – it’s not a discussion unless the basic premise is plausible, and yours just isn’t.

Wow, that was fantastic evilapprentice. Nail – Hammer -> BOOM. Needing to exaggerating numbers to make an argument simply proves the argument isn’t valid. I was trying to catch him saying he was exaggerating but he held firm in stating that 99 times out of 100, a thief will get the jump (and this is the spvp forums so that’s the context for that comment). I can only dream of initiating 99% of my encounters with a backstab to an unaware opponent!

EDIT: I don’t really like being called a troll but I’ll gladly accept being called sir, thank you very much and you’re very welcome as well!

Fortus.6175:

Thanks sir

Although I agree with the original post, and how certain things need to be toned down including burst, not to mention I’m also against rock, paper, scissors play as well.

The current play of glass vs glass is actually pretty fine IMO if not the most balanced fight in game. Most classes have a way to avoid or out play clear burst, and none of it is spammy enough to be completely overwhelming unless your just playing bad that day or round. Unlike the problem with condi.

Glass can take down most bunkers over time and majority don’t out last and kill without significant outplay of the glass cannon(excluding rangers). For the game type I don’t this this is a horrible design either.

Specifically in terms of thieves a lot are predictable and even the ones who aren’t are still countered pretty well. Sure every now and then you’ll be in a crappy situation but I would never say any of it, is unfair and even less so claim a player had no options.

It does kind of suck to get almost insta gibed but ever since steal was made unable to crit I feel more builds glass included have been able to deal with this more.

Good thread, valid points, but as Chaith mentioned, i doubt a full re-work will be in process, especially when it comes to thiefs being able to spam skills since their whole mechanic is about spamming and disengaging.

Regarding the discussion that it developed, it is very sad to see some people holding into some numbers to disregard the whole thread. Sure some numbers might be a bit off to loop, doesn’t mean that it does not happen, or make his general points invalid.

And if you don’t take his word for it, how about Chaith? one of the top NA engineers.
How about Ostricheggs? How about Helseth (check his rant videos)? I remember Phantaram saying that stealth openers were to strong and should be toned down, same with Teldo. Oh wait, i forgot they’re all incorrect and you’re right because there must definitely be some players out there who are insanely good and can beat cheesy builds.. Sure there is, but that’s not the point at all, i hope you understand that.

Not a full blown rework but steps towards it would be appreciated, for now lets see how the Cooperative Development thread develops, which to be honest, and I wish this is total cynicism from my part, I really hope they actually intend to take those stuff into consideration rather than have that thread as a way to shush people about how they are not “doing” something about it (like a political campaign).

Take too long and people will start to lose interest, but I have my faith in the devs, after all, for being only 2 dudes they have done well, and I feel so sorry that they are so overworked with all this, Anet really needs to redirect more resources from LS to balancing overall, not just sPvP (PvE is a mess, with warirors being top tier since day -2, now that also translated to PvP , their only “weak” spot til then)