Guild Wars 2

Hello,

Just interested in people’s perspectives on how they see “balance” when it comes down to 1v1s, vs how Arenanet sees 1v1 playing out in the game. I haven’t mentioned specific professions because this conversation affects every profession.

I’m not horrible at PvP and I can generally hold my own. I’m always learning how to counter new builds and I enjoy the learning process. That said, for me personally, there are certain profession builds that I find so hard to beat that sometimes I will just turn around and run the other direction when I see them because I know it’s not worth my time. Call me chicken or tell me to l2p, but really some professions I just know from experience that there is literally no point in engaging. Maybe they are OP, maybe my profession is UP; that’s not the point. The point is that I already can predict the outcome of the battle in advance.

I have played MMOs for many years now, and I have never played an MMO where there hasn’t been very strong (and very weak) 1v1 classes, so it’s not like I am really surprised that I find myself in these situations in GW2. I am a little disappointed, but not surprised.

My question is: has this situation, in which some professions just seem to be superior in 1v1, always been part of the GW2 PvP vision? Is this part of “being balanced”? Should it be? Does anyone think it will change? Or should we just accept that some professions will always be (relatively) stronger than others (eg. require less effort for greater reward), assuming the same level of skill, in a 1v1 scenario?

For me, given that we have no healers or tanks in GW2, I think every profession and build in GW2 should have the same chance at success given the same skill level, and should have the same effort/reward ratio. I may be just being naive though!

PS – For those who are wondering, the answer is yes! I just got stomped by a certain build/profession for the hundredth time and it made me quietly log out, swear under my breath, count to ten, then put up this post!

The game usually comes down to 2v1/5v5/4v4 due to how roamers function.
Otherwise, everyone would be running nothing but Trap Rangers, Shout Warriors, and Bunker Eles.
Basically, the tankier you build, the better 1v1 potential you will have. But the glassier you can build and still outplay your opponents, the more useful you will be to your team overall, generally.

It is notoriously difficult to make builds equal in 1v1. Even if that was attained, it means that they would very likely not be balanced in groups.

The game is based around groups (as all games should be).

That’s just the issue you have to deal with playing in pubs (as with all games).

misda.2859:

It is notoriously difficult to make builds equal in 1v1. Even if that was attained, it means that they would very likely not be balanced in groups.

The game is based around groups (as all games should be).

That’s just the issue you have to deal with playing in pubs (as with all games).

Do you think that this difficulty has historically come from the healer/tank/dps model that GW2 has moved away from?

I think the removal of tank/healer classes should have made balancing easier but it seems not.

misda.2859:

It is notoriously difficult to make builds equal in 1v1. Even if that was attained, it means that they would very likely not be balanced in groups.

Given a hypothetical perfect 1v1 balance, how could XvX be unbalanced? Please provide some kind of example, because i dont see how.

Well here is why i think 1vs 1 balance is imperative.I may be wrong, but this is what i think.
Lets first make things very simple and assume there are only 2 classes in the game : mesmers and warriors.Now, to balance mesmer and warrior all you have to do is make sure that 1 class has no unfair advantage over the other, and that outcome of the fight is decided by skill and/or luck only.To do that you cannot, for example, give mesmer unremovable elite like MOA.Why? because it incapacitates warrior for 10 seconds which more than enough for burst mesmer to burn him down with warrior having no chance to defend himself.So, all you have to do is balance mesmers vs warriors skills, traits sigils etc.
Now lets move on to 5vs5 balance (very similar to what we have now imo).
You give mesmer MOA elite because, after all game is, or should be, 5vs5 balanced and there are other people to “save” you even if you get MOAd.What happens?
Example scenario: 5 mesmers vs 5 warriors, mesmers pop 3 clones each no warrior can find real target and they get MOAd and killed 1 by 1 like chickens.
So you, once again, need to find the way to balance that encounter, presumably by removing MOA elite and toning down that clone spam ( exactly what you need to do in 1vs1 balance).But it dont stop there you also need to test and balance every possible 5vs 5 scenario to be able to call the game 5vs5 balanced,for example:1 warrior 4 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 2 warriors 3 mesmers etc list is endless.
This is why i view 5vs5 balance as an impossible thing to do even if there were only 2 classes in the game and there are 8 atm to work with.
Again, maybe i am wrong but this is my opinion.

In a perfect world the game would be balanced between every class in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and 5v5.

However, you need to be realistic: perfect balance is not achievable. It’s just not. Because of that, yes, some classes will have more of an advantage over others in 1v1s. What that means is you need to build you strategy around it. This is a team game, and balance will be around having a team. Can’t kill that mesmer on their back point? Maybe that means forcing a 2v2, or doing something more creative like having a high mobility build make the mesmer use their portal, and then run back into a team fight.

Also, try not to get caught up in the mindset of “there’s nothing I can do because x person, or x team, is completely counter-comping me.” There’s usually a way, and it takes a while for someone to figure something out. This holds especially true since the game is relatively new.

Donedusted.9846:

Do you think that this difficulty has historically come from the healer/tank/dps model that GW2 has moved away from?

I think the removal of tank/healer classes should have made balancing easier but it seems not.

I do not. I think it comes from just making classes different. I didn’t even mean MMORPGs. I mean FPS (TF2) and any type of multiplayer game with different classes.

In order to balance everything evenly, they’re going to have to give every class essentially the exact same tools. And that makes a game not fun.

It’s ridiculously hard to balance everyone without making everyone boringly equal. And if you make classes unique, some are going to counter others.

This is a problem I already have with the game- although I know I’m in the minority. I think the classes are all too similar currently (do some dps while keeping your team/yourself healed, and cc people as necessary). Sure you have a lot of things you can do, but they just don’t feel super unique to me, and I don’t feel like I can really specialize at things because every class has everything.

Highre.5704:

Given a hypothetical perfect 1v1 balance, how could XvX be unbalanced? Please provide some kind of example, because i dont see how.

Anything that can be used 1v1 that then one character can use 1vX while the other character can still only use 1v1 is a good example.

Necromancer condi’s are buffed and/or they get a decent amount of HP leech so that they can more easily kill someone who they are fighting 1v1.

Now they get to use that same increased damage/health leech against multiple characters at once.

Some classes, notoriously thieves, are woeful at 1on1s vs most classes in tpvp because they spec pure burst, which is very useful for team games. in a 1on1, a very good player will be ready for ur burst combo, dodge or stun break out of it, and then win, or force you to run.

But, you can build thieves to be excellent @ 1on1, regretfully such specs dont seem to be viable in tpvp.

mobility, survivability, damage and being able to 1v1 basically needs to be all balanced on the maps and for the right team size.

many classes have the all in 1 package which is why they are better than the other classes. Some classes are just no good at some things so their builds are forced to be a specific spec and to only play 1 role in the team.

Jumper.9482:

The game usually comes down to 2v1/5v5/4v4 due to how roamers function.
Otherwise, everyone would be running nothing but Trap Rangers, Shout Warriors, and Bunker Eles.
Basically, the tankier you build, the better 1v1 potential you will have. But the glassier you can build and still outplay your opponents, the more useful you will be to your team overall, generally.

trap ranger and bunker ele can still be killable in 1 v 1 match by glass cannon..it all depend on the players on what kind of play style they prefer and what their good at.

Balance is subjective. Everytime you make a build, you will not be balanced against every class cause every build has a trade off in stats, abilities and utilities.

Balance for me is Usability at team pvp while still winning beeing king at 1on1.

If a class is unbeatable 1on1 and unchangable in team setup(mostly elementalists d/d elementalists >.<) i would call it unbalanced.

Other then that 1on1 balance wil never exist in RPG game

Every profession balanced in 1v1? Absolutely.

Every build? No.

You pick the profession based on the flavor and playstyle you want to do.

You make your build based on what objectives you want to specialize in.

Therefore some builds are more specialized in a 1v1 dueling situation, while others are more geared to team oriented fire fights, and still others are designed specifically for running dungeons or solo pve.

It’s just the nature of any class based character system. You make choices based on your preferences and play according to those preferences.

This game is balanced towards team play.

NaturalPortman.9562:

This game is balanced towards team play.

Sure but not like other MMO’s, GW2 is balanced where every class can 1v1, unlike WoW’s “Rock, Paper, Frost Mage” balance, GW2, team balance comes from 1v1 balance, so in a way you are right and wrong.

I am glad they didn’t balance GW2 with “Rock, Paper, Frost Mage” in mind, balancing a game that way only creates the illusion of personal player skill.

Let me tell you this, I been MMO gaming for over 13 years and I can say without hesitation that GW2 is one of the most balance MMO I have ever played, IMO the skill level of this games PvP balance is on par with old school Asheron’s Call, and says allot, GW2 however still needs some tweaks but give it time.

Its what Anet has always said: “one class is a better control character, while the other is a better support character”.
So the Thief for example, has less support or control skills. But a lot of burst/damage potential.

Anet uses dungeons most of the time to give “balance and teamplay” examples. Like: “We have played a dungeon with only Thieves, which was a perfect viable option”.

So as we know this game is balanced around team, they can still tone down some skills to not be OP in a 1 v 1 confrontation. Even when a close 5 v 4 is going on randomly, a mesmer can AoE (not EoE) bomb almost everything down. And of course the long lasting Moa skill is quite annoying in a 1 v 1. Gives the mesmer all the time to heal up or burst you to death.

I always liked the GvG in GW1:
- How a team suddenly spiked one target to hopefully overdamage the monks who were trying to save the poor target.
The spike skills weren’t all that spikey, but using them with the team all at once “coördinated” was effective. And FUN to watch!
- How flag runners had to survive while holding the flag, tricking the other runner. And still support the team.
- How control and positioning was they key to victory. Cripshot rangers keeping flagrunners and dangerous targets from doing their part of the job. And bodyblocking to keep targets away from the backline. And pulling targets in a big AoE attack.

Some of these aspects have returned in GW2, but now its pretty much balanced around conquest and PvE dungeons. Imagine a 8 v 8 GvG in GW2. It will be a mess with all skill effects flying around. Random bursts on multiple targets. Lucky rallies because of 1 target dying. And cross combo’s making the zergs actually worse (thats what I feel).

But what if skills get toned down a bit. That burst are only viable trough team coordination. And key targets are a bit more easy to follow to be snared or cc’d. And pressure still being viable because there’s no dedicated healer and bodyblocking. There is control however, so running to your Guardian is a viable escape option.

The state we are in now is just a big zerg mess in a 8 v 8 situation. As like I said before its balanced around 5 v 5 conquest).

I think it will still be possible to tone down skills, make 1 v 1 and 8 v 8 AND conquest 5 v 5 still possible! At least this is how I feel about it…

I have found, generally speaking, the closer I come to attaining a balanced build that can win or compete in most 1v1 situations, the weaker I contribute to my team in tPvP because supporting each other’s strengths and having a specific role tends to win out over the former, because as someone said earlier, good tPvP teams will never allow you the time to have any sort of decent 1v1 with anyone before help arrives.

However for general pick up play… just hanging out in sPvP pick up groups… yes, the game can be quite balanced. Most professions have at least a build or two that can competetively 1v1 another.

@aydenunited: Hmmm … many classes feel like this. But D/D-ele’s can build quite well for both duel-ability and nice group-support. Sure, you can’t be optimal in both (there are only so many traits available at once), but aura-share-builds have both fields/finishers, healing, buffs and aura’s … not bad, really. And on top they have mobility and are fun to play

aydenunited.5729:

I have found, generally speaking, the closer I come to attaining a balanced build that can win or compete in most 1v1 situations, the weaker I contribute to my team in tPvP because supporting each other’s strengths and having a specific role tends to win out over the former, because as someone said earlier, good tPvP teams will never allow you the time to have any sort of decent 1v1 with anyone before help arrives.

However for general pick up play… just hanging out in sPvP pick up groups… yes, the game can be quite balanced. Most professions have at least a build or two that can competetively 1v1 another.

I remember there was lots of debating going on during the betas on guru about whether balanced specs or extreme specs would define the metagame. Looks like we’ve found our answer (the overwhelming majority believed that balanced specs would dominate).

To tell you the truth, even though I argued that extreme specs would take over, I find the balanced playstyle more fulfilling to play.

Anet said very early on is development that they didn’t design class balances for 1v1, so of course they won’t be balanced for it. It’s designed for groups.

that’s why they didn’t give us a dueling feature at launch