Balancing premade vs soloqueue

Balancing premade vs soloqueue

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

(if tldr skip these paragraphs)
So it sounds like we won’t be getting segregated queues any time soon, the technology isn’t there and the development of this would likely take forever based on what the devs have said + how long they’ve taken with spvp development thus far. So without further ado I would like to present a different way to work around the premade vs solo queue pug issue, and that is to balance premade vs solo queue play.

To understand how to balance this ideology we first have to analyze what gives premades the upper hand over a solo queue group (assuming equal individual skill level of players for both teams), and then we have to think about how we can minimalize these advantages. If anyone would like to contribute to this segment of the thread (if I miss something) just leave a post and I’ll give your suggestion some thought and maybe add it in.

Things that give premades advantage over pugs: (the What)

  • Communication: Most premades will use VOIP (Skype, Vent, TS3, ect…), the ability to communicate vocally means a few things, the first is that premades can be more organized in fights -coordinating bursts and cc and yelling at people to focus on the target can secure victory for organized players. Another thing VOIP entails is free global awareness; premade players can call out numbers on each point as they are fighting, or call out “incomings” as they engage in another task.
  • Team Comp: Team comp hasn’t been a HUGE issue yet, since GW2 is relatively imbalanced, there are no “set strategies” or comps yet, but this could become more of an issue in the future.
  • Less Roster Issues (no leavers): A huge problem right now (especially in the higher end of the bracket where queue times are longer) is people submitting a roster, then forgetting about it and logging out of the game; when the match eventually starts, that person’s team will be a man short (4v5). Premades don’t have this issue because if someone has to leave, the leader will retract the roster before queue pops and find the group another person to play with.

How to minimalize these advantages: (the How)

  • Communication: Improving the mini map and targeting in sPvP would be the best workaround for communication (ie; tab targeting prioritizes marked targets, replace green dots with class icons + show icons of enemy’s engaged in combat with ally players).
  • Team Comp: Tacking on a simple algorithm to match players based on their “games per class” stats (the pie chart in pvp window) to fit a pug into the meta at least somewhat (1 guard + off-node bunker class + 3 roamer classes) would be a good workaround to the whole queuing into a team of 4 of the same class as me issue. Like I said above though, this isn’t a huge issue right now, but as the game becomes more balanced and as population climbs back up, it will be something to consider when those 2 variables align.
  • Less Roster issues: This is kind of a no-brainer, just make the queue system remove SOLO players out of the roster if they logg out, but let duo+ (anyone in a party) players swap around characters while they remain in queue to coordinate what they want to play with their teams. -I’m pretty sure Anet is already dealing with this and likely has a better solution than the simple one I’ve come up with.

tldr; Things that give premades an advantage over pugs = the above bold, we should try to minimalize these advantages to give solo queuers a real shot against premades that have players of equal individual skill level.

I probably missed a lot (mainly for time sake -I threw this together in like 5 minutes, have to get back to work) so let me know what else you guys think gives premades an edge over pugs and I’ll throw it in later if its worth the thought.

Also, for those of you who don’t know who I am -my names Nick Knowles (Neglekt) and I’m a journalist over at esportsgaming.net, I’m the main content contributor for the GW2 section of the site. Cheers!

Neglekt

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Posted by: CutePicsHunter.7430

CutePicsHunter.7430

If team of 5 ppl join roster – they must fight against other team of 5 ppl. Roster with party of 4 ppl must fight against 3-4 ppl. 3 against 2-3-4, 2 against 1-2-3. This will be the best solution.
Also, i still dont understand why i cant leave tournament when its going 1×5, for example. If current system will continue to exist, you MUST make people able to not join the game if they were matched against 5 ppl team. It means that people should be able to see players which belong to the same group, and leave before game starts without any penalty. That’s the way to balance it.
I am very disappointed with the current state of affairs.

HoT is just a cash grab.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

If team of 5 ppl join roster – they must fight against other team of 5 ppl. Roster with party of 4 ppl must fight against 3-4 ppl. 3 against 2-3-4, 2 against 1-2-3. This will be the best solution.
Also, i still dont understand why i cant leave tournament when its going 1×5, for example. If current system will continue to exist, you MUST make people able to not join the game if they were matched against 5 ppl team. It means that people should be able to see players which belong to the same group, and leave before game starts without any penalty. That’s the way to balance it.
I am very disappointed with the current state of affairs.

Your first idea is technology that Anet doesn’t have at this point (and the point of this thread), I found your second Idea interesting though -kind of like how WoW used to work with their random bg queue (can queue into games that have already started). While I like/agree with this idea overall, there was nothing worse in WoW casual pvp than queuing into the last 3 minutes of a game that people were getting destroyed in.

There are also some technological situations that contradict this system -like if someone’s game crashes then they are removed from the match (even if winning) and then replaced with another player before they have time to logg in.

Thanks for your post and for giving me something to think about!

Neglekt

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Posted by: Valkyriez.6578

Valkyriez.6578

The only way to counter the game crashing and replacement issue is a 2min timer and after that it replaces them.

Game crashes aren’t that common, so catering to the lowest denominater shouldn’t be done. Implement a timer to start at the DC and replace them 2 minutes later. A panelty needs to be put in for leavers etc and if the odd person who crashed gets a 15min no que debuff, so be it.

It’s not that common for a DC nowadays, don’t let leavers etc get away with zero punishments just because a few DCs will upset people. Other competitive games do just fine with very harsh panel ties.

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Posted by: Nord.5360

Nord.5360

Your first idea is technology that Anet doesn’t have at this point (and the point of this thread),

The current matchmaking system already prioritizes matching solo players against solo players, duo queue against duo queue, so on and so forth. The main problem right now is that there simply isn’t enough people queuing into 2-team tournaments, meaning that the matchmaking system resorts to matching solo q’ers against premades after all other options are exhausted.

A big problem with the population is the segregation of the PvP player-base into multiple map formats.. Right now you can join three SEPARATE types of PvP formats in the mists.

1. Hot Joins – The main staple of the casual community.
2. 8 Team Tournaments – an outdated format.
3. 2 Team Tournaments – The only viable tournament format.

My suggestion is as follows:

-Remove hot-joins and 8 team tournaments. Replace 8 team tournaments with an additional 2 team tournament system (much like we have now.) Both of the two team tournament systems will be affected by hidden MMR, but only one will track stats for the incoming ranking system. One will essentially be casual games, and the other hardcore, but both much more structured than hot-join.

I’ve been tracking hot-join participation during off-peak hours over the past week and I’ve found that on average about 250 people are playing. That’s an additional 25 active tournaments.

This would do wonders for filling in the MMR gaps and the “solo, duo, tri, quad, and premade” queue problems we’re currently facing.

My 2c.

Grouch

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Posted by: Zinwrath.2049

Zinwrath.2049

Your first idea is technology that Anet doesn’t have at this point (and the point of this thread),

The current matchmaking system already prioritizes matching solo players against solo players, duo queue against duo queue, so on and so forth. The main problem right now is that there simply isn’t enough people queuing into 2-team tournaments, meaning that the matchmaking system resorts to matching solo q’ers against premades after all other options are exhausted.

A big problem with the population is the segregation of the PvP player-base into multiple map formats.. Right now you can join three SEPARATE types of PvP formats in the mists.

1. Hot Joins – The main staple of the casual community.
2. 8 Team Tournaments – an outdated format.
3. 2 Team Tournaments – The only viable tournament format.

My suggestion is as follows:

-Remove hot-joins and 8 team tournaments. Replace 8 team tournaments with an additional 2 team tournament system (much like we have now.) Both of the two team tournament systems will be affected by hidden MMR, but only one will track stats for the incoming ranking system. One will essentially be casual games, and the other hardcore, but both much more structured than hot-join.

I’ve been tracking hot-join participation during off-peak hours over the past week and I’ve found that on average about 250 people are playing. That’s an additional 25 active tournaments.

This would do wonders for filling in the MMR gaps and the “solo, duo, tri, quad, and premade” queue problems we’re currently facing.

My 2c.

2 problems that pop into my head with your suggestion.

1. Many people dont want to be stuck only playing one map for a week.
2. They’re putting in custom servers…even if they get rid of hotjoin (which they sound like they will eventually) you would still have peoples own servers that people will migrate to, especially if they want a less competitive atmosphere, or having certain features turned on/off make the game funner than what tspvp is offering.

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

Your first idea is technology that Anet doesn’t have at this point (and the point of this thread),

The current matchmaking system already prioritizes matching solo players against solo players, duo queue against duo queue, so on and so forth. The main problem right now is that there simply isn’t enough people queuing into 2-team tournaments, meaning that the matchmaking system resorts to matching solo q’ers against premades after all other options are exhausted.

A big problem with the population is the segregation of the PvP player-base into multiple map formats.. Right now you can join three SEPARATE types of PvP formats in the mists.

1. Hot Joins – The main staple of the casual community.
2. 8 Team Tournaments – an outdated format.
3. 2 Team Tournaments – The only viable tournament format.

My suggestion is as follows:

-Remove hot-joins and 8 team tournaments. Replace 8 team tournaments with an additional 2 team tournament system (much like we have now.) Both of the two team tournament systems will be affected by hidden MMR, but only one will track stats for the incoming ranking system. One will essentially be casual games, and the other hardcore, but both much more structured than hot-join.

I’ve been tracking hot-join participation during off-peak hours over the past week and I’ve found that on average about 250 people are playing. That’s an additional 25 active tournaments.

This would do wonders for filling in the MMR gaps and the “solo, duo, tri, quad, and premade” queue problems we’re currently facing.

My 2c.

2 problems that pop into my head with your suggestion.

1. Many people dont want to be stuck only playing one map for a week.
2. They’re putting in custom servers…even if they get rid of hotjoin (which they sound like they will eventually) you would still have peoples own servers that people will migrate to, especially if they want a less competitive atmosphere, or having certain features turned on/off make the game funner than what tspvp is offering.

I predict many sub-gametypes being created in custom games, like people might start just doing death match games on spirit watch (title game “team deathmatch” then just having ongoing fight right out of spawn by the orb). Kind of like how Aram got started in LoL or Dota in warcraft. It will be hilarious if these sub-gamtypes become more played than actual conquest lol.
But this thread was created to promote ideas of how we could level the playing field between premades and pugs without having to reformat a bunch of stuff that would have to go through approval from ncsoft. So lets try to stay on topic! ;p

Neglekt

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Posted by: CutePicsHunter.7430

CutePicsHunter.7430

-kind of like how WoW used to work with their random bg queue (can queue into games that have already started).

I’m sorry, but you definitely didnt understand. Im absolutely against leaving the game when it is already started, but… I just want to give people opportunity to see if there are some groups in roster and concretely which players are in these groups. Also, anet MUST give people ability to see guildtags in roster and to leave the roster before game starts. After they leave, game should be cancelled and then system will search for a replacement player. I might bring a bit sad news but NO ONE wants to play against 5 people team. For as long as anet do not correct matchmaking system, I will just leave any game against 4-5 people with same guildtags.

HoT is just a cash grab.
Almost nothing in this game will ever be fixed.
Anet fix things only if it might increase gemstore sales.

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Posted by: Wooyadeen.6491

Wooyadeen.6491

I might bring a bit sad news but NO ONE wants to play against 5 people team. For as long as anet do not correct matchmaking system, I will just leave any game against 4-5 people with same guildtags.

Only “Sado Maso Bondage Slave” can find pug vs premade interesting. Anyone with a brain would leave immediately. Where is fun if you know outcome even b4 game start???

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Posted by: Void.4239

Void.4239

here’s a solution for the problems:

they need more options in the queue’s

1) solo Q :
solo players get match up against solo players

2) group Q :
groups of 2-4 can Q up here , teams are mixed once game starts
( you can end up against some of your friends)

3) 5Man Q:
premade full teams get to battle it out against each other.

groups of 2-4 that do not want to get mixed should make 5man team
hopefully increasing the amount of 5man premades , so that “5man Q” line gets more folks playing it.

if any Q option takes to long to get a match-up = its cause to less people playing/interested in that sort of Q option.

With these options its not really needed to match-up same ranks
premades will only dominate in “5man Q”, against other premade teams ( hence rank shoudn’t matter there )