Guild Wars 2

Tao.1234:

Counterplay?

Now you succeed in convincing me that you do not play Warrior in PvP.

Non sequiturs are cool.

Tao.1234:

Considering that Necromancer is No.1 of course.

Whilst i agree necro has a ton of removal, You have to land your removals (Just like cleansing ire, which we seem to be ignoring because it requires you to land skills.)

I would also argue that for removing conditions from one self Necro, Ele, Ranger, gaurd, and warrior are all above thief anyway. (You can’t compare the top condi removal builds by other classes and ignore shoutbow, That’s not how balance works)

@Shala.8352

You can’t compare distortion and zerker stance. They have significantly different durations. One is a class mechanic one is a utility. One is a full invulnerability whilst the other is basically an unremovable boon with some slightly different functions.

It’s a full invun from all damage, Those have no removable version as far as i’m aware. If other invuns could be removed (Doesnt much much logical sense because it’s an invun but okay) then they should all be treated the same. Much like zerker stance and resistance.

Ontop of that your point about necros condicluttering you with wells is moot. Necromancers well’s are mostly used in power builds, The only way it’s possible to apply conditions with them is if its converting your boons. No condi necromancer uses wells.

I won’t even adress your point about a 10sec icd passive that removes 1 condition as being op. Unless you don’t swap warrior weapons every 10seconds then you can easily achieve this too. Ontop of that ele and guardian both have signets with the same passive and they’re untouched because they’re not good at all. The ranger one isn’t even used.

x Charlie.4820:

Tao.1234:

Considering that Necromancer is No.1 of course.

Whilst i agree necro has a ton of removal, You have to land your removals (Just like cleansing ire, which we seem to be ignoring because it requires you to land skills.)

I would also argue that for removing conditions from one self, Ele, Ranger and gaurd are all above thief anyway.

Are you really comparing Condition Removal between necromancer and warrior?

Especially when most of the “send conditions from yourself to target” are unblockable?

Fine, if you love to qq about it then, give me a hint how Warrior is supposed to deal with your cool change against:
- PU Mesmer(Confusion, Torment, Burn, Bleed)
- P/D Thief(Confusion, Bleed, Torment)
- x/T Guardian(Burn)
- S/S+LB Warrior(Bleed, Burn, Torment)
- Condimancer
- Condition engineer(Burn, Confusion, Bleed, Poison)
- Condi Ranger(Bleed, Poison, Burn)

Take into account that every single class listed here, has viable condition removal skills and also available Blocks, evades, teleports, blinds, stealth.

Now, give me a hint how to time and successfully remove conditions from myself by landing a Burst skill with CI trait equipped.

Let’s say, your proposed change gives 10 seconds of Resistance.

x Charlie.4820:

@Shala.8352

You can’t compare distortion and zerker stance. They have significantly different durations. One is a class mechanic one is a utility. One is a full invulnerability whilst the other is basically an unremovable boon with some slightly different functions.

It’s a full invun from all damage, Those have no removable version as far as i’m aware. If other invuns could be removed (Doesnt much much logical sense because it’s an invun but okay) then they should all be treated the same. Much like zerker stance and resistance.

Why shouldnt i compare it? “it is a game mechanic” isnt a reason that makes distortion worst than berserker stance+endure pain, just he doesnt even have to waste 2 utility then XD. You have say no reason for distortion to be removable if you make berserker stance removable XD XD. Talking about duration, as I already said, in a 60 seconds cicle, mesmer will have more seconds of distortion than warrior with berserker stance, so even about the duration you are miss informed. With the difference he can chose to split the times where he is invincible.
But you know what? you like to remove things? lets make death shroud removable. And lets add that warrior’s skill weapons remove boon. Like it? isnt this fair? Cant counterplay 8 seconds? I can counterplay all the time during the fight necro using death shroud, and i can tell you is much more than 8 seconds.

x Charlie.4820:

Ontop of that your point about necros condicluttering you with wells is moot. Necromancers well’s are mostly used in power builds, The only way it’s possible to apply conditions with them is if its converting your boons. No condi necromancer uses wells.

Come on you didnt read a kitten of what i said, just try to play warrior and then any other class, then check your combat log and you will see that in average warrior got much much more condi on him than other classes. That’s happen cuz warrior play in melee, and is easiest to target with aoe and ranged condi spam attacks.

x Charlie.4820:

I won’t even adress your point about a 10sec icd passive that removes 1 condition as being op. Unless you don’t swap warrior weapons every 10seconds then you can easily achieve this too. Ontop of that ele and guardian both have signets with the same passive and they’re untouched because they’re not good at all. The ranger one isn’t even used.

We were talking about cleansing ire beeing not effective, but if you want to go brawler recovery then okay, but remember you give up to a decent dps trait destruction of the empower, without that you will never kill any ele or any bunker boon with a decent skill. And in fact, removing one condition on swap as i already said is almost useless and remeber that is not on demand, a smart player should inflict condi after warrior swap to outplay this trait. O
Oh wait i forgot: condi players have no brain, they just spam condition no care to what the opponent is doing. ANDThat’s the real reason you want to nerf berserker stance.
Come on watch at mesmer/thief/necro/ele/engi, they inflict condi every fartt they do.

Tao.1234:

Are you really comparing Condition Removal between necromancer and warrior?

I’m not comparing them no. I’m telling you that choosing to ignore CI and then saying necro has tons of cleanses through landing skills is a double standard.

Tao.1234:

Especially when most of the “send conditions from yourself to target” are unblockable?

Untraited, none of them are unblockable. Not sure where you got that from.

Tao.1234:

Fine, if you love to qq about it then, give me a hint how Warrior is supposed to deal with your cool change against:
- PU Mesmer(Confusion, Torment, Burn, Bleed)
- P/D Thief(Confusion, Bleed, Torment)
- x/T Guardian(Burn)
- S/S+LB Warrior(Bleed, Burn, Torment)
- Condimancer
- Condition engineer(Burn, Confusion, Bleed, Poison)
- Condi Ranger(Bleed, Poison, Burn)

Take into account that every single class listed here, has viable condition removal skills and also available Blocks, evades, teleports, blinds, stealth.

Now, give me a hint how to time and successfully remove conditions from myself by landing a Burst skill with CI trait equipped.

By your logic necro would die to all of these classes too, Seeing as their transfers all have to be hit to transfer.

Lets take a look at them all individually. Engineer, mesmer and thief all have lackluster condi cleanse, Warrior already has more.

Medi Burn gaurd has smite condition which is just 1 condi and a full cleanse on 48 sec cd. Warrior has condi cleanse on weapon swap (Significantly lower cooldown than smite condition) a full cleanse on a 36 sec cd. You already have more than a burn gaurd with that alone.

That’s already half the classes in your list that have less condition removal than you without factoring in the double resistance you would have which would effectively make you able to control the burn from a medi burn gaurd anyway.

Unless you see them coming and pre-activate zerker stance that burn is still going to chunk most of your health, With resistance it’s less of a passive activation and more of a “Condis are going to hit hard now, i should use resistance.”’

Also PU condi mesmer basically kills anything 1v1 given enough time but is completley useless in conquest.

Oh also there’s another thing to add: berserker stance stop condition to be applied, but dont stop condition that have already been applied before to work properly. Means if you blind/poison/bleed me before, resistence will work to condi already applied.
But then you would be happy cuz you will have your boon removal! YEAA counterplay!
But in fact you are ignoring that you are counterplaing the counterplay XD XD XD.
Is this your balance vision? Someone counterplayed your condi , you must have the counterplay to his counterplay?(for i repeat 8 seconds!!!! with all the condi spam there’s already in this game, you’ve been counterplayed for 8 seconds!!!)

Shala.8352:

Why shouldnt i compare it? “it is a game mechanic” isnt a reason that makes distortion worst than berserker stance+endure pain, just he doesnt even have to waste 2 utility then XD. You have say no reason for distortion to be removable if you make berserker stance removable XD XD.

It’s an immunity to everything, Theres no logical reason it would be removeable. Perhaps stop u using skills like elixer S does but thats a different topic completley.

Shala.8352:

Talking about duration, as I already said, in a 60 seconds cicle, mesmer will have more seconds of distortion than warrior with berserker stance, so even about the duration you are miss informed. With the difference he can chose to split the times where he is invincible.

You are assuming he always has 3 clones up everytime he needs his invincibility, usually not the case.

Shala.8352:

But you know what? you like to remove things? lets make death shroud removable.

As funny as your trying to be with that comment, Engi and mesmer can already remove deathshroud via moa transforms. So that backfired on you.

Shala.8352:

And lets add that warrior’s skill weapons remove boon. Like it? isnt this fair? Cant counterplay 8 seconds? I can counterplay all the time during the fight necro using death shroud, and i can tell you is much more than 8 seconds.

Fine by me, it would have to do lackluster damage to be balanced though and have a slow hit chain like mesmer sword.

Deathshroud doesnt make me immune to anything so that comparison is moot.

Shala.8352:

Come on you didnt read a kitten of what i said, just try to play warrior and then any other class, then check your combat log and you will see that in average warrior got much much more condi on him than other classes. That’s happen cuz warrior play in melee, and is easiest to target with aoe and ranged condi spam attacks.

most classes will have condi dmg top of death log, The only exception is if your get bursted by a glass cannon. I play all classes (For the last time.) Stop assuming stuff based on a flair.

Shala.8352:

We were talking about cleansing ire beeing not effective, but if you want to go brawler recovery then okay, but remember you give up to a decent dps trait destruction of the empower, without that you will never kill any ele or any bunker boon with a decent skill. And in fact, removing one condition on swap as i already said is almost useless and remeber that is not on demand, a smart player should inflict condi after warrior swap to outplay this trait.

Sorry, You complain that passive signets that don’t give ondemand are op.

Then say brawlers recovery is bad because it isn’t on demand? Your not making any sense. Brawlers recovery is more ondemand than a passive signet.

Shala.8352:

Oh wait i forgot: condi players have no brain, they just spam condition no care to what the opponent is doing. ANDThat’s the real reason you want to nerf berserker stance.
Come on watch at mesmer/thief/necro/ele/engi, they inflict condi every fartt they do.

Now i see the real issue. You have no interest in a balance between condi and power and just want a power meta. Anyone who doesn’t play what you are personally interested in is skillless/bad.

While i agree some classes have strong condition application and specs that complaint is ridiculous. Especially as necro was basically untouched, with poison getting a buff but bleeds getting a nerf. Burn is the main problem.

This explains why you want to keep your UTILITY SKILL which has no counterplay for a condition build. (I use utility skill in caps because you seem to keep confusing it with profession mechanics.)

Counterplay to Berserker stance is “do not unload conditions for 8 seconds.”

If you cant just live for 8 seconds then something’s wrong with your
build.

Shala.8352:

Oh also there’s another thing to add: berserker stance stop condition to be applied, but dont stop condition that have already been applied before to work properly. Means if you blind/poison/bleed me before, resistence will work to condi already applied.

Which is why it should be changed. Less passive guessing and more skillful use.

Shala.8352:

But then you would be happy cuz you will have your boon removal! YEAA counterplay!
But in fact you are ignoring that you are counterplaing the counterplay XD XD XD.
Is this your balance vision? Someone counterplayed your condi , you must have the counterplay to his counterplay?(for i repeat 8 seconds!!!! with all the condi spam there’s already in this game, you’ve been counterplayed for 8 seconds!!!)

No. You can counterplay the boon removal. All the signets have telegraphed attacks, As well as the focus skill. Now you’ve kept your resistance.

Not to mention, Again. That only a condition necro will have this. Every other condi class won’t and will still require team assistance.

Zerker stance has 0 way to counter it in a condition build. None at all. Which other utility skill in the game does that?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Counterplay to Berserker stance is “do not unload conditions for 8 seconds.”

If you cant just live for 8 seconds then something’s wrong with your
build.

If “Running away” is classed as a counterplay for something, Can’t we apply that to everything? Nothing will ever be op because “Running away” is apparently a counter-play.

Lets not even mention the fact warriors have the highest mobility in the game.

what things like this need is a better indication outside of ui. some easily recognizeable effect on resistance, berzerker stance, quickness so the more important effect in general

x Charlie.4820:

I’m not comparing them no. I’m telling you that choosing to ignore CI and then saying necro has tons of cleanses through landing skills is a double standard.

What is double standard?
First thing didn’t land due to blind/evade and you can drop another one.
Warrior has to build 30 adrenaline again and still wait for cooldown on Burst skill to go off.
So, how can you call it double standard?
Elaborate.

x Charlie.4820:

Untraited, none of them are unblockable. Not sure where you got that from.

And so what if traited. Still you have range, homing system and GTAoE on Staff.

There is a reason why Necromancer is the best counter against conditions.
Stop fooling around.

x Charlie.4820:

By your logic necro would die to all of these classes too, Seeing as their transfers all have to be hit to transfer.

How would they by my logic?
Putrid Mark, Plague Signet, Deathly Swarm and if all of those fail, you still have Consume Conditions or Well of Power.

Are you really playing Necromancer?

Lets take a look at them all individually. Engineer, mesmer and thief all have lackluster condi cleanse, Warrior already has more.

Are you talking about Shoutbow? Then yes.
Talking about melee? Of course not.

Medi Burn gaurd has smite condition which is just 1 condi and a full cleanse on 48 sec cd. Warrior has condi cleanse on weapon swap (Significantly lower cooldown than smite condition) a full cleanse on a 36 sec cd. You already have more than a burn gaurd with that alone.

Guardian also has condition removal on Virtue if traited, has tons of heals and blocks. And on top of that, Guardian has higher dps than Warrior.

x Charlie.4820:

That’s already half the classes in your list that have less condition removal than you without factoring in the double resistance you would have which would effectively make you able to control the burn from a medi burn gaurd anyway.

You still don’t realize that Resistance is useless against condition spec due to enromous time window between Resistance cooldown and condition restack/duration refresh.

You simply don’t realize that against any condition spec class listed above, Resistance only delay you being stomped. It doesn’t even give you a chance to fight against condition spec player, because you’re also eating soft CC such as Cripple, chill – disable your only way to remove conditions by applying Blind, and rekt your dps by applying Weakness.

Unless you see them coming and pre-activate zerker stance that burn is still going to chunk most of your health, With resistance it’s less of a passive activation and more of a “Condis are going to hit hard now, i should use resistance.”’

I’ll rather get 3 stacks of bleed, torment and burn, than drop down right after Resistance goes off.
You know what Confusion is?
It hits you each time you use a skill.
Decent Engi and Mesmer will easily drop 12 stacks of it – that’s 2.7k per skill usage in your face. Burst skill – 2.7k. Heal skill – 2.7k. Utility – 2.7k. Gap closr – 2.7k.
Count here also burn, bleeds and torment which tick alike in various stacks.
1 second will drop you down by 7k at least.

x Charlie.4820:

Also PU condi mesmer basically kills anything 1v1 given enough time but is completley useless in conquest.

I can’t imagine a Necromancer losing to PU Mesmer.
Even with 300ms, PU Mesmer simply stand no chance.
And all you need is Staff, which is glued to every single Necromancer.

x Charlie.4820:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Counterplay to Berserker stance is “do not unload conditions for 8 seconds.”

If you cant just live for 8 seconds then something’s wrong with your
build.

If “Running away” is classed as a counterplay for something, Can’t we apply that to everything? Nothing will ever be op because “Running away” is apparently a counter-play.

Lets not even mention the fact warriors have the highest mobility in the game.

why are you putting “Running away” in quotes like that is what I said?
I didn’t say “Run away.”
I said “Dont unload for 8 seconds.”
Evade, block, use normal attacks, and save your condi burst for when it runs out. If balanced stance isnt up a launch eats lots of Zerker stance time.

Tao.1234:

What is double standard?
First thing didn’t land due to blind/evade and you can drop another one.
Warrior has to build 30 adrenaline again and still wait for cooldown on Burst skill to go off.
So, how can you call it double standard?
Elaborate.

You can’t compare 2 skills to one skill, You have to compare a direct 1 for 1. If necro misses his transfer he doesnt remove conditions, Same applies to warrior.

You can’t just assume the necro has a second cleanse to use after, That holds as much strength as me assuming you have a signet to remove all conditions after aswell.

Tao.1234:

And so what if traited. Still you have range, homing system and GTAoE on Staff.

There is a reason why Necromancer is the best counter against conditions.
Stop fooling around.

And you have unavoiable aoes/multiple chances to land your cleanse with CI because not all your burst skills hit once.

Also necro isn’t the best against condition classes. It’s the best against punishing them but survival ranger is probably the most forgiving class to fight condi classes with.

Tao.1234:

How would they by my logic?
Putrid Mark, Plague Signet, Deathly Swarm and if all of those fail, you still have Consume Conditions or Well of Power.

Yes because people take all of them skills together.
Warrior has CI, Brawlers Recovery, Signet cleanse, Shake it off passive, Shake it off slotted. Seems you have more than enough condi cleanse too in a build that does nothing but cleanse conditions.

Tao.1234:

Are you really playing Necromancer?

I would argue that your probably not with that build.

Tao.1234:

Are you talking about Shoutbow? Then yes.
Talking about melee? Of course not.

And your talking about specific builds too. That being said warrior still has more than mesmer and engi with CI alone.

Tao.1234:

Guardian also has condition removal on Virtue if traited, has tons of heals and blocks. And on top of that, Guardian has higher dps than Warrior.

Wrong. Burn would have to drop his most important trait to get that. Heals are because it has a lower health pool, thats how classes function.

It has 1 aegis every 45 seconds. Not sure how thats loads of blocks..

Tao.1234:

You still don’t realize that Resistance is useless against condition spec due to enromous time window between Resistance cooldown and condition restack/duration refresh.

You still don’t realise that resistance is more skill based than a “Buff up before combat” ability.

Tao.1234:

You simply don’t realize that against any condition spec class listed above, Resistance only delay you being stomped. It doesn’t even give you a chance to fight against condition spec player, because you’re also eating soft CC such as Cripple, chill – disable your only way to remove conditions by applying Blind, and rekt your dps by applying Weakness.

I’m not sure you know how resistance works. It stops all conditions on your from doing their intended function. Including fear. meaning it’s fairly easy to land CI before the duration has ended because blind will not affect you. None of the soft CC will affect you. Failing that you have healing signet active ontop of that. (Don’t tell me its not worth activating because that regen you get will do significantly less than the dmg mitigation.)

Tao.1234:

I’ll rather get 3 stacks of bleed, torment and burn, than drop down right after Resistance goes off.
You know what Confusion is?
It hits you each time you use a skill.
Decent Engi and Mesmer will easily drop 12 stacks of it – that’s 2.7k per skill usage in your face. Burst skill – 2.7k. Heal skill – 2.7k. Utility – 2.7k. Gap closr – 2.7k.
Count here also burn, bleeds and torment which tick alike in various stacks.
1 second will drop you down by 7k at least.

You basically just said “I would prefer to prebuff myself and not be punished for not cleansing when i reach high stacks.” You can cleanse before the resistance ends, This is just a lazy/low skill thing to say.

Tao.1234:

I can’t imagine a Necromancer losing to PU Mesmer.
Even with 300ms, PU Mesmer simply stand no chance.
And all you need is Staff, which is glued to every single Necromancer.

Why not? It can disengage freely at will, has tons of regen and aegis, Long stealths.

Necro isn’t going to catch it if it leaves.

If its a decent mesmer and can interrupt heal, it wins. If it’s a bad one who sits at max range spamming staff autos and chaining stealth, anyone will kill it.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

why are you putting “Running away” in quotes like that is what I said?
I didn’t say “Run away.”
I said “Dont unload for 8 seconds.”
Evade, block, use normal attacks, and save your condi burst for when it runs out. If balanced stance isnt up a launch eats lots of Zerker stance time.

Elaborate then sir. As a condition necro what do you class as “Normal attacks” The 150 autoattack crits?

x Charlie.4820:

Shala.8352:

Why shouldnt i compare it? “it is a game mechanic” isnt a reason that makes distortion worst than berserker stance+endure pain, just he doesnt even have to waste 2 utility then XD. You have say no reason for distortion to be removable if you make berserker stance removable XD XD.

It’s an immunity to everything, Theres no logical reason it would be removeable. Perhaps stop u using skills like elixer S does but thats a different topic completley.

Oh right it makes sense now. Distortion is an immunity to everything. That’s why berserker stance thats only condi immunity should be removable and distortion not.

x Charlie.4820:

Shala.8352:

Talking about duration, as I already said, in a 60 seconds cicle, mesmer will have more seconds of distortion than warrior with berserker stance, so even about the duration you are miss informed. With the difference he can chose to split the times where he is invincible.

You are assuming he always has 3 clones up everytime he needs his invincibility, usually not the case.

Mesmer has not access to distortion only with F4, but also with signets, and distortion triumphant. And Blurred frenzy?

x Charlie.4820:

Shala.8352:

And lets add that warrior’s skill weapons remove boon. Like it? isnt this fair? Cant counterplay 8 seconds? I can counterplay all the time during the fight necro using death shroud, and i can tell you is much more than 8 seconds.

Fine by me, it would have to do lackluster damage to be balanced though and have a slow hit chain like mesmer sword.

Deathshroud doesnt make me immune to anything so that comparison is moot.

You kidding? All the incoming damage is reflected on death shroud life bar, isnt this called immunity to everything?

Others things i wont even answer, its a waste of time. I’ll just tell you go play warrior and see why you cant play without berserker stance.
Any decent warrior i’ve seen without berserker stance is a bow warrior. That still is kinda bad in this new patch.

oh no i am not right. You can play without berserker stance… only against another warrior, the only class that doesnt spam condi in every attack.

Berserker stance could pulse resistance every 2-4 seconds. That way warrior can get the benefits of extra boon duration but also the negative side like getting corrupted. By pulsing small duration boon instead of just 1 big one it makes harder for people to just hard counter the skill.

Shala.8352:

Oh right it makes sense now. Distortion is an immunity to everything. That’s why berserker stance thats only condi immunity should be removable and distortion not.

Well yes, generally if your IMMUNE to EVERYTHING you would be immune to everything being applied to you.

Distortion is also a profession mechanic not a utility skill.

Shala.8352:

Mesmer has not access to distortion only with F4, but also with signets, and distortion triumphant. And Blurred frenzy?

Signets have cast times and only give 1 second of distortion. Triumphant Distortion doesn’t exist anymore. Blurred frenzy is NOT a distortion and hasn’t been for quite some time now. You should brush up on your knowledge of other classes.

Shala.8352:

You kidding? All the incoming damage is reflected on death shroud life bar, isnt this called immunity to everything?

It’s a profession mechanic, You CAN’T compare PROFESSION MECHANICS to UTILITY SKILLS.

That being said, Again your assuming it’s always up and doesn’t require management. What about at the start of the game? We effectively dont have a profession mechanic.

Ontop of that when we leave deathshroud all the conditions on us will tick for full amount, unless we remove them. Which is basically how resistance would function.

Shala.8352:

Others things i wont even answer, its a waste of time. I’ll just tell you go play warrior and see why you cant play without berserker stance.

Where did i say anywhere that you should play without it? It would work fine as resistance. I’m talking about CONVERTING IT into resistance. NOT REMOVING IT.

Nobody is asking for the condi immunity to be gone. I’m asking for it to function differently.

Shala.8352:

Any decent warrior i’ve seen without berserker stance is a bow warrior. That still is kinda bad in this new patch.

Irrelevant to the dicsussion. Any decent necro has a staff.

x Charlie.4820:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

why are you putting “Running away” in quotes like that is what I said?
I didn’t say “Run away.”
I said “Dont unload for 8 seconds.”
Evade, block, use normal attacks, and save your condi burst for when it runs out. If balanced stance isnt up a launch eats lots of Zerker stance time.

Elaborate then sir. As a condition necro what do you class as “Normal attacks” The 150 autoattack crits?

Anything that isnt your condi unload, for eight seconds.

It’s not rocket science.

If you use flesh golem then that would be a good time to charge. Zerk stance is not build crippling, you just need to keep an eye on your target bar and not unload for 8 seconds.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Anything that isnt your condi unload, for eight seconds.

In rabid/dire ect there is nothing that “Isn’t your condi unload”

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If you use flesh golem then that would be a good time to charge. Zerk stance is not build crippling, you just need to keep an eye on your target bar and not unload for 8 seconds.

If you don’t you should use??? What do you do for the other 7 seconds? If he has stability would you still say that thats a good time to use my golem charge?

Be specific, Because currently i’m thinking the best option is to run. Your telling me otherwise and i need you to elaborate on that without just repeating what you said the first time.

Berserker stance is fine. Its olny broken with rampage but it has nothing to do with the skill effect itself. Just make rampage cancel stance effects. Also funny that people complaining about 8sec immunity to conditions on 60cd while we have diamond skin eles running around facerolling any condi builds out here.

Hard counters shouldnt be in the game .
Well 2-3 seconds its not too bad but more than that its too much.
And yes berzerker stance shouldnt have so long duration, and diamond skin shoulnt be in the game.
I dont care how top player condi player u are,if u meet a ds ele u will never win , ofc im talking an ele that is not afk.
I know the game its not a out 1v1 , but u do have a few 1v1s and its so so anoying when u know there is 0 chance to win such duel as a condi player.

skowcia.8257:

While we have diamond skin eles running around facerolling any condi builds out here.

Diamond skin requires a commitment. You can’t run around hitting like a truck with diamond skin because your health threshold will drop too quick and you won’t be able to regain that health back.

(Cele ele has issues, mostly burn, i admit)

Glasscannon eles can’t get much benefit from this trait. With zerker stance it makes 0 difference if your a tank or a full glass yolo warrior, The effect is the same.

If you make it give Resistance, it needs to be on a much shorter cooldown. Otherwise that’s a severe nerf. (Unless it’s, like, pulsing Resistance? Note sure the change is meaningful enough to be warranted then, though.)

Mostly I think it could use a better graphical representation because a couple of the warrior skills icons just sorta blend together. Not too flashy, though, because too many buff particles make it harder to see animations (and this gets really annoying when people are throwing CC in between their attacks, especially — which is what warriors love to do when they’re going Berserk).

x Charlie.4820:

skowcia.8257:

While we have diamond skin eles running around facerolling any condi builds out here.

Diamond skin requires a commitment. You can’t run around hitting like a truck with diamond skin because your health threshold will drop too quick and you won’t be able to regain that health back.

(Cele ele has issues, mostly burn, i admit)

Glasscannon eles can’t get much benefit from this trait. With zerker stance it makes 0 difference if your a tank or a full glass yolo warrior, The effect is the same.

What are you talking about? A diamond skin ele will never drop below 90% health when fighting a dire/rabid build. No exceptions. Now if the ele was fighting two people (dire and power build) there would be a problem for the ele. This applies to berserker stance as well.

They’re both countered by the same thing. Power based damage.

Kagamiku.9731:

What are you talking about? A diamond skin ele will never drop below 90% health when fighting a dire/rabid build. No exceptions. Now if the ele was fighting two people (dire and power build) there would be a problem for the ele. This applies to berserker stance as well.

They’re both countered by the same thing. Power based damage.

No. If a zerker ammy ele is fighting a condi class 1v1 he would only have to lose around 1k health before conditions could be applied. Which is fairly easy to knock off. His damage output would be high and his ability to heal back to 90% would be limited by low healing power.

If hes PVT the health threshold is higher, He can sustain slightly better because he can tank while healing but has very low damage output.

If hes celestial hes inbetween the 2 examples above, He has less damage, less health but can sustain the health much better.

Diamond skin functions based on your health, which differs by which amulet your weariing.

The more health, the more diamondskin, You do less damage.
The less health, The less diamondskin, You deal more damage.

Warrior doesn’t have that commitment to make, He can go full zerker and still get a flat 8 seconds of immunity to conditions with no counterplay. It doesn’t matter what you do to him. Them 8 seconds will remain their regardless.

I’m not saying diamond skin is perfect or good for the game either. I’m saying it has a tiny bit of counterplay to remove it and your build directly affects how well beneficial it will be to you.

You can tell when the ele has diamond skin up and judge for yourself is you have enough power damage to take it down before commiting to the fight. That will never be the case for a warrior.

I would argue too that it should also be changed to a pulsing resistance but that’s for another thread.

I’m sorry, but you’re not taking regeneration and signet of restoration (protection too) into consideration. Water Magic too (even more so if they trait for it) when they reach that attunement and need some more skills to spam. All of these things happen passively by simply spamming spells. The more they spam, the more they heal. That is yoloing in a nutshell.

Even if they stood still and did absolutely nothing, you could not remove their diamond skin instantly (several hits). But if they actually use their skills, it becomes the ultimate counter to condition builds.

You’re just making stuff up to try and prove your point. A rabid/dire specced character will not drop an ele below 90% health unless he stands still and lets you take it from him.

Kagamiku.9731:

I’m sorry, but you’re not taking regeneration and signet of restoration (protection too) into consideration. Water Magic too (even more so if they trait for it) when they reach that attunement and need some more skills to spam. All of these things happen passively by simply spamming spells. The more they spam, the more they heal. That is yoloing in a nutshell.

Again, healing power directly affects everything, including regen and signet of restoration. Low toughness usually makes passive heals over time weaker than a direct heal due to the amount of time it takes you to go down.

Your talking about taking 3 specific traitlines, Which as a glasscannon s/d ele isn’t viable because you don’t have fresh air. So it’s not possible, hence the commitment.

You will lose heal and condi cleanse or heal, vigor and boon on attunement. Theres no viable way to take earth arcane and water in a glasscannon build because you need fresh air.

Again, Everything you’ve listed is based on traits. Warrior doesn’t have that commitment to make, Zerker stance will function exactly the same regardless of traits or build.

Kagamiku.9731:

Even if they stood still and did absolutely nothing, you could not remove their diamond skin instantly (several hits). But if they actually use their skills, it becomes the ultimate counter to condition builds.

I would say that varys on build.

I’ve said already i disagree with diamond skin too but your posting in the wrong thread. There is another thread discussing diamond skin already.

Kagamiku.9731:

You’re just making stuff up to try and prove your point.

Hm? That holds a lot of strength without an example.

Kagamiku.9731:

A rabid/dire specced character will not drop an ele below 90% health unless he stands still and lets you take it from him.

You can also be fully aware from the initial engage that he will have that buff on at a certain healthtreshold. You can judge your ability to take him down based on that.

Again. Warrior doesn’t have that disadvantage. Unless you can somehow see when the cooldown of their zerker stance, they never will.

As i’ve already said. I don’t agree with diamond skin (Whilst it has slightly more counterplay than zerkerstance) but that’s for a different thread.

I was actually disappointed when I realized they didn’t use their new Resistance boon for Berserker Stance. Heck, I thought that was part of the reason why they added Resistance, so they could give the stance counter-play.

ASP.8093:

If you make it give Resistance, it needs to be on a much shorter cooldown. Otherwise that’s a severe nerf. (Unless it’s, like, pulsing Resistance? Note sure the change is meaningful enough to be warranted then, though.)

Mostly I think it could use a better graphical representation because a couple of the warrior skills icons just sorta blend together. Not too flashy, though, because too many buff particles make it harder to see animations (and this gets really annoying when people are throwing CC in between their attacks, especially — which is what warriors love to do when they’re going Berserk).

Perfectly reasonable! I wouldn’t say give them pulsing resistance, but Would perhaps a 30 second cool down be sufficient? In addition, whenever you gain a condition you gain a stack of might while the skill is active?

Not sure how people can seriously claim that warrior has to rely on berserker stance in order to deal with conditions when it is common knowledge that shoutbow almost singlehandedly made most condi builds unviable…

Berserker stance really only becomes important because warriors are now combining it with cc from hammer and burst from gs. Here berserker stance is not used defensively, quite the opposite: against certain condi builds (any condi necro not having plague form ready for instance) it is not simply a hard counter but an ‘I gank you by default and there is nothing you can do’ build, especially if coupled with rampage. With all the burst damage after the update 8 seconds of immunity is more than enough to decide most fights.

Allowing for counterplay is a nobrainer and it should have been changed to (pulsing) resistance a long time ago

Tissitra.4153:

Allowing for counterplay is a nobrainer and it should have been changed to (pulsing) resistance a long time ago

I dont get it. You want resistence so you can counterplay it with boon rip, but then you say counterplay is a nobrainer XD XD XD.

Still i already said the spam of conditions is already unacceptable, especialy weakness and blind. Now a class that rely on power builds and has the slowest skill animation in gw history, and has almost no condi damage, is heavily countered by these 2 condis. Those 8 seconds of berserker stance are needed to do the damage yes, but again is just 8 seconds, and you just can counter it by simply pressing death shroud. I know you cant stop your condi spam, so is maybe this the reason? you complaining about your condi spam actualy been wasted on those 8 seconds?

Also stop taking bow in the discussion as an example, it’s a noob weapon and all the warriors would like that it disappear from warrior kitten nal

As i Said, warrior without bow and without berserker stance can win only against another warrior XD.

Shala.8352:

Tissitra.4153:

Allowing for counterplay is a nobrainer and it should have been changed to (pulsing) resistance a long time ago

I dont get it. You want resistence so you can counterplay it with boon rip, but then you say counterplay is a nobrainer XD XD XD.

Still i already said the spam of conditions is already unacceptable, especialy weakness and blind. Now a class that rely on power builds and has the slowest skill animation in gw history, and has almost no condi damage, is heavily countered by these 2 condis. Those 8 seconds of berserker stance are needed to do the damage yes, but again is just 8 seconds, and you just can counter it by simply pressing death shroud. I know you cant stop your condi spam, so is maybe this the reason? you complaining about your condi spam actualy been wasted on those 8 seconds?

Also stop taking bow in the discussion as an example, it’s a noob weapon and all the warriors would like that it disappear from warrior kitten nal

As i Said, warrior without bow and without berserker stance can win only against another warrior XD.

OK I never ever mentioned bow…

Warriors have great condi removal skills. Even if cleansing ire is not enough, you can pick up shouts and run soldier runes, you can pick up warhorn, you can remove condis with every weapon swap. But oif course that is not your actual point. Your point is that you want to pick the burst/cc power build and THEN still be able to dominate condi builds with no possible counterplay. Don’t pretend that this is about how warriors can’t deal with conditions without berserker stance.

‘You can counter it by pressing deathshroud’ I guess necros must have been blatantly oblivious to the option of pressing that button then??? Even if you have life force (which in many case you will not), it is not some kind of immunity or invulnerability skill (like well say warrior stances). What you are saying is in essence that in order to do well against a warrior necros should just have more health.

Even if cleansing ire is not enough, you can pick up shouts and run soldier runes, you can pick up warhorn,

lol this guy. So basically play shoutbow or bust. Shoutbow sucks now. It’s not even viable with how bursty everything is (notice how every warrior is yolo zerker now). And you can’t say using shouts and soldier runes is a viable way to clear conditions in the first place. That’s a runeset anyone with shouts can use, it’s not a class skill/mechanic/trait.

It’s not a “I want counterplay” it’s an “I want all stances to be food for necro’s like balanced stance already is”

There are so many overpowered skills and builds right now, and berserkers stance is far down that list. Hell, without rampage warrior is mediocre. That is their true trump card. And even with rampage, they’re still trumped by mesmers and ele’s and guards…

And whats truly funny is necros are the true condition killers. The more conditions you apply to them the more they’re going to send back at you. Or how they corrupt your boons and replace them with conditions. With a 1/2 second casttime, and unblockable. Where is the counterplay in that?

Kagamiku.9731:

Even if cleansing ire is not enough, you can pick up shouts and run soldier runes, you can pick up warhorn,

lol this guy. So basically play shoutbow or bust. Shoutbow sucks now. It’s not even viable with how bursty everything is (notice how every warrior is yolo zerker now). And you can’t say using shouts and soldier runes is a viable way to clear conditions in the first place. That’s a runeset anyone with shouts can use, it’s not a class skill/mechanic/trait.

It’s not a “I want counterplay” it’s an “I want all stances to be food for necro’s like balanced stance already is”

There are so many overpowered skills and builds right now, and berserkers stance is far down that list. Hell, without rampage warrior is mediocre. That is their true trump card. And even with rampage, they’re still trumped by mesmers and ele’s and guards…

And whats truly funny is necros are the true condition killers. The more conditions you apply to them the more they’re going to send back at you. Or how they corrupt your boons and replace them with conditions. With a 1/2 second casttime, and unblockable. Where is the counterplay in that?

So to summerize your argument: ‘Warriors should not have to deal with condis outside of just picking up berserker sance because otherwise warriors would have to deal with condis outside of picking up berskerker stance’. Also, not getting where your fear of all the incredibly OP condi necros might be coming from (that to my knowledge don’t actually exist). Which brings me back to my original point: arguing that berserker stance should continue not to allow for actual counterplay has nothing to do with the fear that warriors don’t have enough condi removal. You simply want exactly that it should still have zero counterplay period.

Necro’s are incredibly OP against other condition builds. Just mediocre against other stuff. But since you don’t consider power based damage a direct counter to berserker’s stance then I guess power based damage isn’t a counter to corrupting/transferring conditions.

Berserker’s stance lasts 8 seconds. 8 seconds is not a counter to anything. It does absolutely nothing against power damage. And even condition builds can work around it if they’re smart. Like necro’s placing wurm somewhere they can port to right after warrior activates their stance.

Berserker Stance operates on the anticipation of taking heavy conditions in a time-frame and negating the threat all together, it is at this time a defensive move against punishment through conditions.

Resistance operates on the other end of the spectrum, retaliating to sudden condition burst or application. These conditions are NOT negated while the boon is active and will persist for their duration regardless of how long Resistance lasts.

I say all of this because there seems to be some sort of impression that Resistance and the current Berserker’s stance could be changed around easily, adding a simple amount of counterplay to the stance.

Even if the stance were changed to something like pulsating Resistance on a 30 second CD, overall the Warrior’s susceptibility to conditions sky-rockets and the profession will get trashed.

The reason for this is that the only reliable methods of condition clear we have as Warriors are:

- Signet of Stamina Active (Most reliable, can be applied to many builds without reliance on any weapons)
- Brawler’s Recovery (Single Condition every weapon swap in Discipline is very nice)
- Shouts, more or less “Shake it Off”, coupled with Trooper Runes (Which isn’t really a capability just for us but hey).
- Cleansing Ire (Unreliable, countered with Blind unless using LONGBOW, and if that projectile gets absorbed or reflected the cleanse fails)
- Mending (Not worth mentioning, heal is pitiful, can be affected by Poison if the poison was not cleansed first by its initial effect)

That’s all. Yep after all of that, of those options, you might see 3 of those at any given time in a competitive build. We can’t radically clear conditions ambient or swap them to someone else or consume them, we as Warriors will end up soaking them up regardless.

The worst part about those options? Over half of them are not reliable unless you run a certain few builds, and sadly enough the balance patch recently more or less gutted those builds to mediocrity. Shoutbow’s healing got destroyed, and the high direct damage flying around makes the formerly ‘beefy’ build a little bit too slim to run effectively.

Ultimately, Signet of Stamina and Brawler’s Recovery are the only real useful capabilities a Warrior has to clear conditions without being interrupted (though, Signet active could get interrupted on that 1/4 second channel, not likely).

Cleansing Ire, I think everyone here knows what makes that one fail when you don’t have a longbow.

Sykper.6583:

Berserker Stance operates on the anticipation of taking heavy conditions in a time-frame and negating the threat all together, it is at this time a defensive move against punishment through conditions.

Resistance operates on the other end of the spectrum, retaliating to sudden condition burst or application. These conditions are NOT negated while the boon is active and will persist for their duration regardless of how long Resistance lasts.

I say all of this because there seems to be some sort of impression that Resistance and the current Berserker’s stance could be changed around easily, adding a simple amount of counterplay to the stance.

Even if the stance were changed to something like pulsating Resistance on a 30 second CD, overall the Warrior’s susceptibility to conditions sky-rockets and the profession will get trashed.

The reason for this is that the only reliable methods of condition clear we have as Warriors are:

- Signet of Stamina Active (Most reliable, can be applied to many builds without reliance on any weapons)
- Brawler’s Recovery (Single Condition every weapon swap in Discipline is very nice)
- Shouts, more or less “Shake it Off”, coupled with Trooper Runes (Which isn’t really a capability just for us but hey).
- Cleansing Ire (Unreliable, countered with Blind unless using LONGBOW, and if that projectile gets absorbed or reflected the cleanse fails)
- Mending (Not worth mentioning, heal is pitiful, can be affected by Poison if the poison was not cleansed first by its initial effect)

That’s all. Yep after all of that, of those options, you might see 3 of those at any given time in a competitive build. We can’t radically clear conditions ambient or swap them to someone else or consume them, we as Warriors will end up soaking them up regardless.

The worst part about those options? Over half of them are not reliable unless you run a certain few builds, and sadly enough the balance patch recently more or less gutted those builds to mediocrity. Shoutbow’s healing got destroyed, and the high direct damage flying around makes the formerly ‘beefy’ build a little bit too slim to run effectively.

Ultimately, Signet of Stamina and Brawler’s Recovery are the only real useful capabilities a Warrior has to clear conditions without being interrupted (though, Signet active could get interrupted on that 1/4 second channel, not likely).

Cleansing Ire, I think everyone here knows what makes that one fail when you don’t have a longbow.

I am sorry that is SIMPLY BS. You can spec into insane condi removal on a warrior (the options you listed are A LOT more than other professions have. I would say the only exception is ele, even necros don’t have this much condi removal available, while having some condi transfers OTH). You simply don’t want to because you want to not just do well against something like a condi necro, you want to dominate with no counterplay by being immune to condi all the while pummeling them with hammer/gs on your power build.

As to what the other person is saying; first of all, most warriors these days spec into the stances trait, so it is 10 seconds not 8, And yes, if you run power/cc then in many cases this is more than long enough to decide the fight. Since the update, a power build can down ANYTHING quicker than that if unchecked.

It is baffling to me that you are not even defending berserker stance as such. You are defending the fact that it has no counterplay. Making it pulsing resistance would essentially only change something against condi necros – a matchup that is currently HEAVILY skewed in the favor a warrior (if they are power then they just pop berserker and go to town with GS and hammer).

Tissitra.4153:

I am sorry that is SIMPLY BS. You can spec into insane condi removal on a warrior. you simply don’t want to because you want to not just do well against something like a condi necro, you want to dominate with no counterplay by being immune to condi all the while pummeling them with hammer/gs.

Warrior’s Balance system design is simply poor.
You either can make a build which has insane party support along with condition removal, and that build is with longbow only.
If you choose to drop longbow and play with melee weapons, may it be gs, axes, shield, swords or even hammer, Berserker’s stance is mandatory, because current condition removal availability is insufficient.

Take a notice that any changes which apply to PvP will also apply to WvW.
As proposed change to Berserker’s change may have a reason to be done, it still needs to follow with a way to give a sufficient condition cleansing without it.
And here the best solution would be to change Burst sync with CI to make it activate after spending requested amount of Adrenaline despite hitting a target or not.

Otherwise, like I have mentioned already multiple times, Warrior will become a rag doll for condi build users.
If you cannot see it, then your knowledge of the class builds and mechanics is poor.

Tissitra.4153:

As to what the other person is saying; first of all, most warriors these days spec into the stances trait, so it is 10 seconds not 8, And yes, if you run power/cc then in many cases this is more than long enough to decide the fight. Since the update, a power build can down ANYTHING quicker than that if unchecked.

I cannot understand how going stance spec does change anything.
Going for additional 2 seconds on stances simply makes you more vulnerable to conditions, because you give up on Cleansing Ire which design is poor but still give you a chance to remove conditions from yourself.

It is baffling to me that you are not even defending berserker stance as such. You are defending the fact that it has no counterplay. Making it pulsing resistance would essentially only change something against condi necros – a matchup that is currently HEAVILY skewed in the favor a warrior (if they are power then they just pop berserker and go to town with GS and hammer).

It’s not about defending, it’s about a sole fact how Warrior is designed and how every melee power spec is forced to stick to it.

If you cannot fathom how turning it into a boon will skewer Warrior’s power builds in PvP and WvW then, once again, poor knowledge.

Tao.1234:

Tissitra.4153:

I am sorry that is SIMPLY BS. You can spec into insane condi removal on a warrior. you simply don’t want to because you want to not just do well against something like a condi necro, you want to dominate with no counterplay by being immune to condi all the while pummeling them with hammer/gs.

Warrior’s Balance system design is simply poor.
You either can make a build which has insane party support along with condition removal, and that build is with longbow only.
If you choose to drop longbow and play with melee weapons, may it be gs, axes, shield, swords or even hammer, Berserker’s stance is mandatory, because current condition removal availability is insufficient.

Take a notice that any changes which apply to PvP will also apply to WvW.
As proposed change to Berserker’s change may have a reason to be done, it still needs to follow with a way to give a sufficient condition cleansing without it.
And here the best solution would be to change Burst sync with CI to make it activate after spending requested amount of Adrenaline despite hitting a target or not.

Otherwise, like I have mentioned already multiple times, Warrior will become a rag doll for condi build users.
If you cannot see it, then your knowledge of the class builds and mechanics is poor.

Tissitra.4153:

As to what the other person is saying; first of all, most warriors these days spec into the stances trait, so it is 10 seconds not 8, And yes, if you run power/cc then in many cases this is more than long enough to decide the fight. Since the update, a power build can down ANYTHING quicker than that if unchecked.

I cannot understand how going stance spec does change anything.
Going for additional 2 seconds on stances simply makes you more vulnerable to conditions, because you give up on Cleansing Ire which design is poor but still give you a chance to remove conditions from yourself.

It is baffling to me that you are not even defending berserker stance as such. You are defending the fact that it has no counterplay. Making it pulsing resistance would essentially only change something against condi necros – a matchup that is currently HEAVILY skewed in the favor a warrior (if they are power then they just pop berserker and go to town with GS and hammer).

It’s not about defending, it’s about a sole fact how Warrior is designed and how every melee power spec is forced to stick to it.

If you cannot fathom how turning it into a boon will skewer Warrior’s power builds in PvP and WvW then, once again, poor knowledge.

Don’t talk about poor traits/mechanince to someone who (at least to some extent) plays necro.

Fact of the matter is still (which I think you are not even disputing) is that warrior have great condi removal IF THEY WANT to pick it up. They have more of it than other professions. I have heard this argument repeated now so often: ‘We need unconditional condi immunity in our burst build because otherwise we could be susceptible to condis’. Well yes you might be. That is the whole point. Something like a condi necro should actually at least stand more of a chance of being useful against you.

Mind you, pulsing resistance would not even change anything against builds that can pull off REAL condi burst with burning (which necros obviously cannot). As stated above, the main consequence would be that it would make condi necros somewhat better against you. Given the great default advantage that you currently have over them I submit that would be a good thing.

‘If you cannot see it, then your knowledge of class mechanics is poor’. Great (lack of) argument.

Tissitra.4153:

Fact of the matter is (…)

Irrelevant.
Pretty much every class can have great condition removal in their build.
Difference may lay only if that build will affect nearby allies or not and to what extent.

They have more of it (…)

And condition necro does win against Warrior with Berserker’s Stance.
Just because it does struggle bit more than against other classes and builds doesn’t mean it’s an issue that need to be addressed.
Personally I play both condi and power specs on Necromancer.
And with Stun break + Stability on Death Shroud activation, neither hammer or Skullcrack is an issue if you have experience against those builds and weapons.

Mind you, pulsing(…)

It does change way too much.
It gives way too much freedom for condi spec which in majority of builds is ranged and contain soft CC such as Immobilize, cripple or chill which does lower mobility and may force melee user to use gap closers.
Nevertheless, it still allow to stack multiple damage conditions in high intensity on opponent which will start damaging the moment Resistance will disappear.
What is more, as it would become a very important Boon, it’s still vulnerable to Boon stripping abilities which lie in hands of many classes. What’s more, those classes do poses Boon removal are especially part of condition spec which will make that Boon by default – useless.

As stated above,(…)

I assure you, that even in previous state, Necromancer was above Warrior, especially when Necromancer was in condi spec.
Therefore, here we have a L2p issue rather than specific problem.

’If you cannot see it(…)

Asking for nerf and supporting any nerf without having a single insight on the class that will hit, is rather a poor argument and does land rather in the line of “whining” instead of “balance issue”.
Especially when you do ask for removal or great change which is a nerf and don’t add a compensation or propose a rework of another ability which would fill the gap created by that nerf and make that specific skill optional instead of “must have”.

Since it seems there is a great misunderstanding, I’ll try to clarify what has been said and what I mentioned in previous posts.

Warrior’s design is poor, no matter how people may believe it’s great or not.
Build variety is pretty much static and does not allow you to experiment with other abilities which in fact are great, because removal of certain abilities from those builds simply affect them too greatly.

Burst skill has been reworked couple of times.
I personally agree to decay system, because it’s manageable, and experienced warrior’s can fill up 3 bars of adrenaline before cooldown of Burst skill will be over – some conditions have to be met, but it is possible without using buffs that completely refill it.

Warrior’s biggest problem are conditions due to lack of condition clearing on majority of builds – exception is Shoutbow.
CI which is in synergy with Burst skill also doesn’t work in much favor because it’s vulnerable to multiple defense mechanisms available for all classes.
Burst skill used on those defense mechanisms will go on cooldown, will spend 3 bars of adrenaline and CI will not be affected if target does:
- evade
- have Aegis
- does Block
- became Invulnerable
- apply Blind on you
- has Distortion(mesmer)
- Stealth – I have issues sometimes when I do hit stealthed target such as thief or mesmer who go down right after, but CI doesn’t activate(can be an occasional bug, not confirmed)

CI which remove one condition per adrenaline bar spent is becoming an ability which has to be timed and require a clear shot.
That’s why it does have a great synergy for example with combos like:
Shield Bash -> [Burst Skill]

Compared to other classes, which have Condition Cleanse simply due to activation of certain ability at any given time(except Thief’s stealth), CI is poor.

Due to that reason, power builds which are equipped with melee weapons require a skill that put a sustain to conditions and won’t be affected by condi specs which mostly are equipped with Boon removal – that’s why this stance is good, because cannot be removed.
High Cooldown(60sec) and 8 second duration makes that skill pretty much a very good designed skill.

Summary:
- If you desire to nerf that skill, redesign it or whatever, give a proposition of rework of some other skill(burst preferably due to being equipped by all times) that will allow Warriors to have a comparable to other classes, condition removal on power melee specs. That for sure will increase diversity in builds and allow Warriors to pick up freely other Utility skills.

Instead of what most people do right now:
- Based on own experience vs Warriors, nerf it for the sake of my L2p issue.

Kagamiku.9731:

lol this guy. So basically play shoutbow or bust. Shoutbow sucks now. It’s not even viable with how bursty everything is (notice how every warrior is yolo zerker now).

So your comaplining shoutbow isnt viable because of certain things such as yolo warrior but don’t think they should get nerfed. Forgive me for thinking that doesn’t make much sense.

Kagamiku.9731:

And you can’t say using shouts and soldier runes is a viable way to clear conditions in the first place. That’s a runeset anyone with shouts can use, it’s not a class skill/mechanic/trait.

Yeah because ranger shoutbow is very effective. “Everyone with shouts can use it” by that you mean warrior and guard. It’s a useless runeset to everything else.

Balance doesn’t come sololey from traits and skills, Runes and sigils will always factor into it to.

Kagamiku.9731:

It’s not a “I want counterplay” it’s an “I want all stances to be food for necro’s like balanced stance already is”

There is 1 signet build on necro that has multiple corrupts which you have to trait for, Beyond that trait you only have a well in a power build and corrupt boon in a condi build. You can take ds2 conversion but then your stability conversion won’t do any damage because you don’t have terror.

You act like necros have unlimited corruptions, Which isnt the case unless that’s what they’ve specifically traited for and lost survival in the process.

Kagamiku.9731:

There are so many overpowered skills and builds right now, and berserkers stance is far down that list. Hell, without rampage warrior is mediocre. That is their true trump card. And even with rampage, they’re still trumped by mesmers and ele’s and guards…

I can’t think of any other utility skill on any other profession which makes you immune to a stat for 8 seconds with no option to remove it.

Kagamiku.9731:

And whats truly funny is necros are the true condition killers. The more conditions you apply to them the more they’re going to send back at you.

We don’t have unlimited transfers. Good players know how to dodge. Thats a simple l2play issue.

Kagamiku.9731:

Or how they corrupt your boons and replace them with conditions. With a 1/2 second casttime, and unblockable. Where is the counterplay in that?

I don’t know what your talking about, Only 1 of our corruptions/transfers is unblockable being corrupt boon.

Only 1 signet doesn’t have a casttime, because its a stunbreak the rest are all 3/4 and 3 seconds long with obvious animations. DS 2 has a very obvious animation and the well which converts will only be used in a power build and need i even say you shouldnt just stand in the well?

Removing them is your counterplay. Not allowing conditions to be applied to you would be having no counterplay.

Kagamiku.9731:

Necro’s are incredibly OP against other condition builds. Just mediocre against other stuff. But since you don’t consider power based damage a direct counter to berserker’s stance then I guess power based damage isn’t a counter to corrupting/transferring conditions.

Why would power based damage be a counter to corrupting/transfering conditions. I’m not following you here but common sence says condi removal would be the counter to that.

Kagamiku.9731:

Berserker’s stance lasts 8 seconds. 8 seconds is not a counter to anything. It does absolutely nothing against power damage. And even condition builds can work around it if they’re smart. Like necro’s placing wurm somewhere they can port to right after warrior activates their stance.

“Working around it” means slotting a utility skill to run away. That’s not counterplay.

8 seconds is more than long enough to end the fight, You said earlier that the damage is insane now. How would you feel about someone getting 8 seconds of immunity to damage? Would you still class that as balanced?

well, if its a warrior, 8 seconds of immunity isnt that much, cuz i think if he even can land more than 3 attack in 8 seconds with his slow animation and no range then i wont think about balance, i will think he is doing better than me XD

Tao.1234:

It does change way too much.
It gives way too much freedom for condi spec which in majority of builds is ranged and contain soft CC such as Immobilize, cripple or chill which does lower mobility and may force melee user to use gap closers.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that resistance stops all conditions from functioning on you, including soft CC. I’ve already told you this once.

Ontop of that your gapclosers got buffed last patch and are unaffected by soft cc if you was unaware.

Tao.1234:

Nevertheless, it still allow to stack multiple damage conditions in high intensity on opponent which will start damaging the moment Resistance will disappear.

Which is why you use CI to cleanse in them 10 seconds.

Tao.1234:

What’s more, those classes do poses Boon removal are especially part of condition spec which will make that Boon by default – useless.

1 of our 8 classes will be able to remove it in a condition spec. It’s useless then?

How many power builds can currently remove protection? That isn’t even a 100% immunity to direct damage either. It’s still picked up though.

Tao.1234:

I assure you, that even in previous state, Necromancer was above Warrior, especially when Necromancer was in condi spec.

Stop ignoring shoutbow. Which single handily pushed every condition spec out of the meta. I guess your right though, Every tourny has a condition necro and none of them ran a shoutbow warrior pre-patch.

Tao.1234:

Especially when you do ask for removal or great change which is a nerf and don’t add a compensation or propose a rework of another ability which would fill the gap created by that nerf and make that specific skill optional instead of “must have”.

Firstly have skills as “Must haves” is already telling you there is an issue.
Secondly, If something if too strong you generally don’t compensate to make up for it when you nerf it because that would make it pointless.

That being said with it changing to resistance it becomes more skill oreintated and you can go immune when the conditions rack up high, Rather than at the start of the fight.

Tao.1234:

Burst skill used on those defense mechanisms will go on cooldown, will spend 3 bars of adrenaline and CI will not be affected if target does:
- evade
- have Aegis
- does Block
- became Invulnerable
- apply Blind on you
- has Distortion(mesmer)
- Stealth – I have issues sometimes when I do hit stealthed target such as thief or mesmer who go down right after, but CI doesn’t activate(can be an occasional bug, not confirmed)

Necro transfers are also weak to everything you have just listed. I don’t understand why you want to be rewarded for not landing your skills? If someone evades your burst skill to keep their condis on you and you didn’t count dodges then they outplayed you and deserve to beat you.

Tao.1234:

Compared to other classes, which have Condition Cleanse simply due to activation of certain ability at any given time(except Thief’s stealth), CI is poor.

You have a signet that removes all conditions with an activation of an ability.

that’s why this stance is good, because cannot be removed.
High Cooldown(60sec) and 8 second duration makes that skill pretty much a very good designed skill.

So you would be okay if for example spectral armor got a 100% power damage reduction with an 8 second duration which is unremovable. You would class that as well designed and balanced?

Tao.1234:

- If you desire to nerf that skill, redesign it or whatever, give a proposition of rework of some other skill(burst preferably due to being equipped by all times) that will allow Warriors to have a comparable to other classes, condition removal on power melee specs. That for sure will increase diversity in builds and allow Warriors to pick up freely other Utility skills.

It’s only a nerf for those who wish to use it as a “Buff up before combat” skill. Those who can actually time their CI with it and use it when a class condi clutters them with a lot of conditions will completley negate all of the damage.

Now you actually have to watch your conditions and remove them like other classes, Only you still have an immunity to them on demand. Just not immunity to their application.

x Charlie.4820:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that resistance stops all conditions…<Snip>

Resistance does stop conditions from functioning, until it falls off or gets stripped.

It also doesn’t deal with the whole ‘Duration Stacking Conditions’ that well either, I would rather not run around with a massive amount of cripple because I can’t clear it at all.

Gap-closers weren’t buffed, all movement skills were normalized. In fact, Rush is actually weaker than it was before due to the clunky pause and the slow travel time being just above swiftness in speed…if the target was standing still and not kiting away. Bull’s Charge, Whirlwind Attack, and Earthshaker are the only movement skills that I can still consider practical.

x Charlie.4820:

Which is why you use CI…<Snip>

Provided ‘Resistance’ is applied, we just can’t miss (not from a blind), be dodged, be blocked, or hit an invulnerable target, with our extremely telegraphed and predictable move-set. CI isn’t an i-win card when players have seen Earthshaker a few hundred times to know when its coming, and heck, go up a slight slope to negate the AoE entirely. CI is only consistent with Longbow, and even that can have its projectile absorbed or reflected.

x Charlie.4820:

1 of our 8 classes will be able to remove it…<Snip>

I’ll agree on the sentiment that Resistance is useful, it’s just not going to work as a replacement for Berserker Stance since we have no means to take off the condition pressure, to create a break in combat like other professions. CC, Stealth (depends on profession and class), and True invulnerability are the only means to cause a break from an opposing condition class.

x Charlie.4820:

Stop ignoring shoutbow…<Snip>

Cut the snide, we all know Shoutbow matched the previous meta to a T. If the balances did one thing right, it was completely toss out the old meta, now we just have to fine-tune the damage and hopefully damage gets put in a better spot than last time, but not so abundant now.

x Charlie.4820:

Firstly have skills as “Must haves” is already telling you there is an issue…<Snip>

Speaking to the choir here, Warriors have a lot of trash skills, we know it. Kind of wish the other physical skills got the ‘Frenzy Treatment’ but whatever. Anyways, how is ‘Berserker Stance’ not skill-orientated? The Warrior makes the call on when to pop it, and if he pops it at the very beginning which both he and his opponent know, the pressure is on the Warrior to do the damage before it runs out. If he pops it too late as in after conditions are tearing into him, it doesn’t make him immune to current conditions. Thus it becomes a contest on how well (assuming the opponent is pure condition) can adjust and either kite or CC the warrior. Because once the stance falls, the Warrior will be taking a LOT of heat.

x Charlie.4820:

Necro transfers are also weak to everything you have just listed. I don’t understand why you…<Snip>

Outside of the unusual case of Longbow, I assume you already know the predictability problems with Warriors and their ranges with their bursts. If you pile on the conditions on one, just from his weapons alone you can predict what TWO abilities you have to look out for and expect them extremely soon, literally seconds. IN FACT, with the fastest bursts lasting half a second you can add Interrupt to the list of ways to deal with CI.

x Charlie.4820:

You have a signet that removes all conditions with an activation of an ability.

And we are fortunate to have it.

x Charlie.4820:

So you would be okay if for example spectral armor got a 100% power damage reduction with an 8 second duration which is unremovable. <Snip>

Sure, if you can’t refill lifeforce while in it! Stop with the profession comparisons, it’s comparing two different environments.

x Charlie.4820:

<Last Part Snipped>

It’s neat that you think Warriors without a longbow have an easy time landing bursts on competent players. It’s also neat that you think we don’t get hammered with conditions, because CI totally clears out all the conditions when you land it right? Oh, sorry being disingenuous here, but only because this entire conversation is really telling me how much you play Warrior.

x Charlie.4820:

Tao.1234:

What’s more, those classes do poses Boon removal are especially part of condition spec which will make that Boon by default – useless.

1 of our 8 classes will be able to remove it in a condition spec. It’s useless then?

How many power builds can currently remove protection? That isn’t even a 100% immunity to direct damage either. It’s still picked up though.

I’ll answer to that part of your post but it’s still about what you wrote in a whole.

1 out of 8?
Did you play anything beyond Condimancer?

Seeing such answer it clearly means that you have not.

If you did, then you would have at least a little glimpse how other classes and their builds work, and in fact, what they lack and how some are simply locked to certain abilities.

Sykper.6583:

Resistance does stop conditions from functioning, until it falls off or gets stripped…..

Hes using the arguement that he still cant use CI to cleanse because he would still be getting blinded with resistance on him. That’s incorrect.

Sykper.6583:

Gap-closers weren’t buffed, all movement skills were normalized.

It was mostly a buff in pvp with d/d ele, Engi running around with a ton of chill uptime.

Sykper.6583:

Provided ‘Resistance’ is applied…

The point about being blocked or hitting invun targets applies to every single class. If you blow your abilities into an invun target target, That’s just poor play.

If the enemy is dodging your burst skill, That’s them outplaying you is it not? Your bursting when they have endurance up. Just bait out the dodge and cast when its almost over. Unless they double dodge (In which they just outplayed you by being bad) it’ll land.

Sykper.6583:

CI isn’t an i-win card when players have seen Earthshaker …

I don’t think it’s fair to use a (Bug?) to justify the balance of a skill. Earthshaker is a big aoe stun, It needs a decent animation.

Sykper.6583:

Anyways, how is ‘Berserker Stance’ not skill-orientated?

What is the purpose behind berserker stance? To stop enemies applying conditions to you.

Against a decent player in a full condition build, Popping that at the start of the fight is a “Run away from me” skill. They don’t want to waste all their cooldowns because the conditions won’t apply. Theres nothing they can do, They just have to hope they have mobility avaliable and that the warrior cant get them down in them 8 seconds.
Because it currently stops the APPLICATION you are merley just predicting/getting 8-10 seconds of free dmg.

Changing it into resistance would mean you use it after the application of most of their hard hitting condition skills, Effectively putting them on cooldown. They could also start to fight back when your resistance is about to end on the offchance you won’t cleanse. They won’t have the “Rack up” again.

berserker stance currently is a buff before combat. Resistance change would be a direct in combat counter when you need it.

Sykper.6583:

Outside of the unusual case of Longbow…

I do. I also however don’t think it’s fair to balance your utility skills based sololy on hammer. Greatsword burst isn’t hard to land with it having bladetrail which can literally remove the blind right before you use it. Whirlwind and 100b are also easy ways to remove it.

Sword is almost instant aswell.

Sykper.6583:

Sure, if you can’t refill lifeforce while in it! Stop with the profession comparisons, it’s comparing two different environments.

Whilst i already think without the lifeforce gain it would be stupidly broken, Zerker stance is giving you adrenaline.

Sykper.6583:

Oh, sorry being disingenuous here, but only because this entire conversation is really telling me how much you play Warrior.

Baseless assumptions that contribute nothing but intent to insult just weaken your arguement, Fyi.

Tao.1234:

I’ll answer to that part of your post but it’s still about what you wrote in a whole.

1 out of 8?
Did you play anything beyond Condimancer?

Seeing such answer it clearly means that you have not.

If you did, then you would have at least a little glimpse how other classes and their builds work, and in fact, what they lack and how some are simply locked to certain abilities.

Re-Read what i said. Only 1 of 8 CONDITION speced classes will be removing it.

Nobody is going to spec into domination or take greatsword/sword in a condition build.

All your responces seem to be are based on assumptions that i don’t play warrior. I’ve told you several times i play all classes (Similarly i’ve told you several times how resistance functions but you choose to ignore it) but it’s not even relevant to the discussion because telling me i have no idea what warrior would be like WITHOUT berserker stance is irrelivent. I’m not asking for it to be REMOVED.

Converting BS into a boon will make it useless because the amount of boon strip / steal / transfer / corruption this game have.
I believe BS was made to be able to help warrior to not be a free kill against full / middle conditions specs. With resistance, agaisnt decent players will be useless.

x Charlie.4820:

Re-Read what i said. Only 1 of 8 CONDITION speced classes will be removing it.

Nobody is going to spec into domination or take greatsword/sword in a condition build.

I’ll say it again.
You have zero knowledge about builds of other classes.
You have zero experience with builds of other classes.
You have zero knowledge about Traits and Utility skills of other classes.

x Charlie.4820:

All your responces seem to be are based on assumptions that i don’t play warrior. I’ve told you several times i play all classes (Similarly i’ve told you several times how resistance functions but you choose to ignore it) but it’s not even relevant to the discussion because telling me i have no idea what warrior would be like WITHOUT berserker stance is irrelivent. I’m not asking for it to be REMOVED.

If you did play other classes at least to the point of understanding their mechanisms, build variety, possibilities, animations and finally the abilities they posses, it wouldn’t even cross your mind to write something like “Only 1 out of 8 in condi spec(or not) can remove boons”.

I’m not writing this to make you feel silly or feel like a “noob” – since it’s internet’s most common reference to gamers who are wrong or do make a mistake.

And obviously I am not counting sigils here.

Also, would be nice to stop this “condi this condi that”.
Power Builds also favor some conditions, and Berserker’s Stance affect all builds which apply any kind of Condition.

I’m ignoring your Resistance Hype for obvious reason – it’s strip able and in current Condition Removal ability for the rest of the builds outside of Shoutbow, is simply worthless.

I told you already, you have Resistance Boon on Healing Signet use.
Get Warrior, grab melee weapons, grab melee build, drop berserker’s Stance, use HS and fight Condition users – may it be necros, engis, mesmers, warriors or even guardians.

Do 50 matches against decent players and tell us how many you won.

I can already tell you that you won’t score more wins than fingers on a single hand.

x Charlie.4820:

Hes using the arguement that he still cant use CI to cleanse because he would still be getting blinded with resistance on him. That’s incorrect.

That’s fine, but can you address how my point on how dealing with duration-based conditions?

x Charlie.4820:

It was mostly a buff in pvp with d/d ele, Engi running around with a ton of chill uptime.

Irrelevant to warriors.

x Charlie.4820:

The point about being blocked or hitting invun targets applies to every single class….<Snip>

I think you are routinely missing my point. Warriors have the biggest ‘tells’ in this game on what they are going to do next, it’s absurd. If a Warrior needs to get rid of his conditions within the conditions burst (which is any given time where he is just layered with conditions) the condition applier can predict it, regardless of how many times the Warrior counts dodges, blocks, invulns, etc. This isn’t a Learn to Play issue, its an issue with our profession.

x Charlie.4820:

I don’t think it’s fair to use a (Bug?) to justify the balance of a skill. Earthshaker is a big aoe stun, It needs a decent animation.

Perfectly fair when it’s been a huge problem for us since 2012. I am OK with the animation, but I was expressing simply another side of how little effect CI has on our other skills.

x Charlie.4820:

What is the purpose behind berserker stance? To stop enemies applying conditions to you…<Snip>

Why isn’t there anything the condition user can do? You said it before, why can’t they just dodge, block, pop an invulnerability, go into stealth, etc.? There are a myriad of ways to deal with Berserker Stance, it’s not immune to CC either! It’s 8 to 10 seconds (Last Stand traited) long on a minute cooldown! Your point about ‘using it after their hard-hitting conditions’ does not apply here for the following reasons:

- Conditions that stack duration will last well beyond Resistance.
- Conditions that stack intensity will be given a nifty head-start in burst condition damage once the boon falls off.

Berserker Stance popping before a fight is one which a Warrior does when he knows the intended target can’t respond back, either through fighting the player before and seeing how heavy his conditions are and/or finding his kiting capabilities are poor. It gets popped immediately for things like spotting a Signet of Spite animation during combat, or observing the obvious tells from a Burning Guardian.

x Charlie.4820:

I do. I also however don’t think it’s fair to balance your utility skills based sololy on hammer. Greatsword burst isn’t hard to land with it having bladetrail which can literally remove the blind right before you use it. Whirlwind and 100b are also easy ways to remove it.

Sword is almost instant aswell.

Blind isn’t the only thing that stops both those bursts, and both those weapons require a really close proximity to use. If you managed to let the warrior get close after peppering him with 3+ conditions either you messed up, or he had to pop some intense cooldowns like Balanced Stance and maybe a Bull’s Charge. Mind you, you should be dodging or blinking or whatever it is to get out of that mess.

x Charlie.4820:

Whilst i already think without the lifeforce gain it would be stupidly broken, Zerker stance is giving you adrenaline.

Berserker Stance grants us adrenaline (already nerfed) to fuel our adrenaline deficiency. Funny Story, conditions on the warrior that do damage do NOT fill the gauge, that’s a good joke right?

x Charlie.4820:

Baseless assumptions that contribute nothing but intent to insult just weaken your arguement, Fyi.

That’s largely due to the fact you have ignored many other posters who have presented sound arguments about why it has to stay, yet you seem intent on saying the ‘Warrior got outplayed’ argument. We have a hard enough time as it is with our limited skill set as a whole to deal with other professions mechanics, the mind-games we have to do to bait out things like Distortion or get the Guardian to pop his invulnerability at a bad time is startling. It’s not hard to play a Warrior, but its a kitten hell to master one to fight the masters of other professions.