Guild Wars 2

Here’s the way I see ANET’s options, for better or for worse. Yes, these are my opinions.

Remove “safe” pips; 2 Seasons of experience have shown that this match making system will never “level out.” A little thought will show that the “safe” pips are all that supports a population in the mid range of the league. Removing these would quickly result in having players only at the extremes,(assuming the same style matchmaking.) Sure, it might eventually rebound and distribute the players evenly. That would take months or years though. I strongly suspect that this is why “safe” pips were created.

Adjust the current matchmaking system; A major nerf to the lopsidedness of the matches has already been tried, without success in my view. Again, 2 seasons of experience have shown that the system will never “level out” within a season. Therefore, the reasoning for lopsided matches is flawed. This is not viable.

Go all team pvp; This would eliminate many players and exacerbate match making issues by reducing the available pool of players.

Go all solo PvP; This option would heavily emphasize individual skills and make fairer matches. However, it’s contrary to ANET’s current marketing goals and it’s attempt to make GW2 a “group content” game.

Return to unranked style matchmaking; Many denigrate this system as being mere “grind.” To some extent that’s true, but only to an extent. if the system strives for 50/50, more skilled players will have better and less skilled worse. This system has the merit of not creating matches as often that are blatantly one sided.

TLDR

This is my suggestion ANET; Go with 50/50 matchmaking. Remove “safe” pips since that seems to be such an emotional issue. Finally, make any “legendary” items a reward track that may only be advanced by playing ranked. This would result in a system that distributed players across the ranks to some extent, without alienating the pve players that the reward was meant to attract.

Incidently, naming the wings “Legendary” and the top rank of the league “legendary” also was a serious error. It is clearly not necessary to ever make legendary rank to obtain the wings. The name sets up this resonance of “deserving” the reward. The reward was to motivate people to play over a period of time. It was never really a mark of high skill and it should not have been presented that way.

I think going all team PVP and completely getting rid of MMR in ranked is the way to go. Solo players would have to start using the LFG to make teams
You would face off against the team closest to your pip range

If they wanted to be fair they would have to make a solo que, a variant 2/3/4 man team que and a full party 5 vs 5 que. Three Modes to que for. Games like league of legends didn’t do this however, because it lengthened que times. I feel however I would rather wait for a fair match than a solo vs duo/trio match up.

If you are a solo player you would just need to make a team in LFG before you queue. I really think all team is the way to go.

Zelulose.8695:

If they wanted to be fair they would have to make a solo que, a variant 2/3/4 man team que and a full party 5 vs 5 que. Three Modes to que for. Games like league of legends didn’t do this however, because it lengthened que times. I feel however I would rather wait for a fair match than a solo vs duo/trio match up.

That’s funny, I could only imagine the queue time for being split 3 ways for game modes, and 5 ways for party size.

The only thing that’s a must to improve, yesterday, besides stabilized match quality would be queue times under 8 minutes as a must.

I dislike the idea of all team for a couple of reasons;

Teams carry. If the goal is to test the skill of the player, that goal is distorted by the addition of teams. This is especially true when a team goes against randoms.

On a practical level, I was always last to be picked for teams. Why would I want to relive that in GW2?

Philosophically, GW2 is allegedly about heroes. Almost by definition, a hero is a loner.
I don’t want to be beholden to a “commander.” That view is shared by many, I think.

The “Guild Wars” were a specific period of Tyrian history. King Adelburn helped end that if memory serves, before The Searing. This is why the franchise has always been about the player alone or in a small group.. be that henchies or a dungeon party.

Insisting on teams will drive away anyone perceived as not good enough to team. This type of elitism can only hurt the game.

I don’t care for SoloQ only or team only because you never know what you’re going to get. You could face three necros but everything you know how to play decently well is weak to condi while you could wind up with three guardians in another matchup who may be good players but due to the importance of inter-class interaction and environmental factors would really drag down the team. There are 8,001 potential matchups as there are 9 classes and multiples of a class are permitted (I’ve won against 5 necro teams in ranked by playing keep away and one was on Khylo in season 2 too) and most of those are going to consist of bad comps.

Team vs. team is better because two teams are organized with what they figured out was a good comp and why, but is less practical since you won’t always be on with your team and you’d have to find approximately skilled players. Sometimes on a team you know a great time to do something but the team wants you to do something else, you do that something else and stat losing then do your own thing and start winning again.

A good solution is SoloQ but no class stacking.

PVP is a team contest…

When you solo queue, you end up with a team comp that anet figured out for you. If players had to queue as a team it would be similar to forming a dungeon party in LFG. I check the ranked pvp LFG every once in a while, no one uses it. But if you HAD to queue as a team, i think players would start using the function.

Bring back solo queue please, since the majority plays solo they won’t have long wait times anyways, and I think they deserve a fair match with and against other solo players. And removing mmr from match making would be a very good improvement too, I never understood and never will understand how intentionally matching a better team against a weaker team made any sense, it always ends in a slaughter and that’s not fun, competitive matches are a lot more fun and worth doing.

I think a pure solo queue is the best option. With ANET pushing “group” content and trying to change the direction of GW2, I doubt they will do this.

So, I suggested a compromise position.

Ithilwen.1529:

I dislike the idea of all team for a couple of reasons;

Teams carry. If the goal is to test the skill of the player, that goal is distorted by the addition of teams. This is especially true when a team goes against randoms.

On a practical level, I was always last to be picked for teams. Why would I want to relive that in GW2?

Philosophically, GW2 is allegedly about heroes. Almost by definition, a hero is a loner.
I don’t want to be beholden to a “commander.” That view is shared by many, I think.

The “Guild Wars” were a specific period of Tyrian history. King Adelburn helped end that if memory serves, before The Searing. This is why the franchise has always been about the player alone or in a small group.. be that henchies or a dungeon party.

Insisting on teams will drive away anyone perceived as not good enough to team. This type of elitism can only hurt the game.

You’re the poster child for everyone gets a trophy. If you don’t want to be picked last at something, then improve. My goodness…

Ithilwen.1529:

I dislike the idea of all team for a couple of reasons;

Teams carry. If the goal is to test the skill of the player, that goal is distorted by the addition of teams. This is especially true when a team goes against randoms.

… playing in a team is a skill.

Ithilwen.1529:

Philosophically, GW2 is allegedly about heroes. Almost by definition, a hero is a loner.
I don’t want to be beholden to a “commander.” That view is shared by many, I think.

According to you, yes, and this isn’t the first time you’ve espoused this view. I’ve never seen stated anywhere that Guild Wars is about heroes or heroism or some such kitten.

Edit: and even if it was, the narrative has little bearing on the gameplay in most MMOs. A lot of MMOs do single-player RPG style storylines about a lone hero or a group of heroes, whilst simultaneously being set in a world with thousands of players, all of which are supposedly the lone hero. It’s called Ludonarrative dissonance, and it’s a poor argument for removing teamplay from a game mode based on teamplay.

Ithilwen.1529:

I think a pure solo queue is the best option. With ANET pushing “group” content and trying to change the direction of GW2, I doubt they will do this.

Group content? In an MMO? Great Scott! What will they come up with next…

@Pakkazull

(in direct reply and relevant as it relates to the philosophy behind the discussion)

The narrative of being a hero is reinforced from the very first. Every single race and division, be it noble vs commoner or which college a character represents, is introduced as a hero. In fact, the first act in-game is to distinguish oneself individually.

The vast majority of the pve world can be and is enjoyed individually. Sadly, HoT attempted to change that.

I have never been interested in being part of a herd, following a “commander.” That’s in no way heroic. If I wanted that, I’d go to any one one of several institutions on Sunday.

PvP players speak constantly about “skill.” The reality is that teams disguise poor skills.
Teams also introduce social networking as a factor in winning.

If the goal is to test and exhibit skill, then solo queue is the logical format. This would allow team play. Yet it would not allow pre organized groups to more – or – less bully non teamed players.

Ithilwen.1529:

The narrative of being a hero is reinforced from the very first. Every single race and division, be it noble vs commoner or which college a character represents, is introduced as a hero. In fact, the first act in-game is to distinguish oneself individually.

Congratulations, you managed to reply to this part:

Pakkazull.6894:

According to you, yes, and this isn’t the first time you’ve espoused this view. I’ve never seen stated anywhere that Guild Wars is about heroes or heroism or some such kitten.

… but managed to completely ignore this part:

Pakkazull.6894:

Edit: and even if it was, the narrative has little bearing on the gameplay in most MMOs. A lot of MMOs do single-player RPG style storylines about a lone hero or a group of heroes, whilst simultaneously being set in a world with thousands of players, all of which are supposedly the lone hero. It’s called Ludonarrative dissonance, and it’s a poor argument for removing teamplay from a game mode based on teamplay.

Ithilwen.1529:

I have never been interested in being part of a herd, following a “commander.” That’s in no way heroic. If I wanted that, I’d go to any one one of several institutions on Sunday.

I don’t know how being part of a five-man group of equals is “being part of a herd” or “following a commander”, but whatever floats your boat. Also you might want to look up the definition of “heroic”, because you seem to be making up your own definitions. There’s nothing in there about a hero being “lonely” or anything to support your agenda, really.

Ithilwen.1529:

PvP players speak constantly about “skill.” The reality is that teams disguise poor skills.
Teams also introduce social networking as a factor in winning.

Again, you completely ignore what I said in my previous post. I guess it was inconvenient so you decided not to address it.

Ithilwen.1529:

If the goal is to test and exhibit skill, then solo queue is the logical format. This would allow team play. Yet it would not allow pre organized groups to more – or – less bully non teamed players.

Yes, it would allow very basic teamplay, sure.

Anet just needs to push PVP LFG. That way everyone is in a “premade.” It would be lame if you weren’t allowed to queue up with your friends, so I doubt Anet would force everyone to solo queue.

I don’t think there’s really dissonance since we’re all the big hero/heroine from our end but from everyone else’s perspective we’re Pact grunts. So we are commander yet private at the same time depending on perspective.

@pazzakull

(in direct reply and relevant to the philosophy of the topic of this thread.)

Sadly, my Webster’s Unabridged is in that part of my library that is in storage at the moment. So, I refer to; “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.” Please excuse the sexist language. This is an older dictionary. The emphasis is mine.

He-ro (hir’o) noun 1. In mythology and legend, a man,often born of one mortal and one divine parent, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits and favored by the gods. 2. Any man noted for his feats of courage or nobility of purpose; especially, one who has risked or sacrificed his life.

I could go on typing. Note that the individual is emphasized time and again. Not once does this passage mention a group.

So, by implication, team play is not heroic and therefore not in keeping with the narrative of GW2.

You claim that this is a poor argument for removing team play.

First, I haven’t argued for removing team play. I’ve argued for removing what I consider exploitation by pre -mades that more-or-less act as bullies.

A pure solo queue would moderate some of the exploitation of solo queue’rs. It would also still allow team play, just on a less organized level.

Second, if the game is not to be directed by it’s own narrative, then how will it be directed? If the storyline and the actual game are out of sync, you lose one of the principle attractions of gw2 and it becomes another “streetfighter” type video game.

Group play is easy, especially when the group is pitted against individuals. That doesn’t mean it exhibits skill or the lack thereof on the part of the individuals.

@Agemnon That’s an interesting point. I guess I realized it but hadn’t articulated it to myself. Thank you for that.

This debate is really silly, heroes in MMO games are still heroes even though end game typically has tons of group content.

The nitpicked definition of a hero doesn’t dictate what type of content developers push in MMOs. It’s the game genre that’s relevant here.

MMOs are social, there are endless popular, single player RPGs on the market for complete solo immersion

Ithilwen.1529:

@pazzakull

(in direct reply and relevant to the philosophy of the topic of this thread.)

Sadly, my Webster’s Unabridged is in that part of my library that is in storage at the moment. So, I refer to; “The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.” Please excuse the sexist language. This is an older dictionary. The emphasis is mine.

He-ro (hir’o) noun 1. In mythology and legend, a man,often born of one mortal and one divine parent, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits and favored by the gods. 2. Any man noted for his feats of courage or nobility of purpose; especially, one who has risked or sacrificed his life.

I could go on typing. Note that the individual is emphasized time and again. Not once does this passage mention a group.

…WTF

So what’s the definition of Heroes (Plural)?

I guess i was wrong to assume this was a serious post.

I prefer being a solo hero than having others with me trying to boss me around and stuff then taking credit for all my heroic deeds…

The Hero argument is getting kinda weird. Sure the definition of hero emphasizes a singular person, hero is a singular noun after all. The plural of which being heroes, which would refer to a group of people. I think what Pazzakull was trying to point out is that just because someone is deemed a “hero”, it doesn’t mean they tackle the world alone. If 5 people go into a cave and slay a dragon, when they come out people might consider them heroes. Saying you have to be some sort of lone wolf to establish yourself as a hero and using that in a counter argument against team queue pvp, well, that’s quite the stretch.

The only legitimate argument against team queue I’ve seen is that some builds/professions may find it difficult to get into a group because they are not “meta”. And this is a pretty legitimate concern, because we’ve already seen this happen in dungeons and fractals in the past.

However, swapping to solo queue only in sPvP, that would be completely ridiculous. Like it or not, deny it all you want, sPvP in it’s current form is a team game. It is 2 teams of 5 players going against each other. Solo Queue does nothing but pick your teammates for you. And from what always shows up on the forums, nobody likes the teammates they get in solo queue.

Ithilwen.1529:

Any man noted for his feats of courage or nobility of purpose; especially, one who has risked or sacrificed his life.

I could go on typing. Note that the individual is emphasized time and again. Not once does this passage mention a group.

You can perform feats of courage and risk your life in a group too, you know.

Ithilwen.1529:

Second, if the game is not to be directed by it’s own narrative, then how will it be directed? If the storyline and the actual game are out of sync, you lose one of the principle attractions of gw2 and it becomes another “streetfighter” type video game.

Well ideally the narrative should fit the gameplay, which is a bit late for a game that has been out for almost four years. For all intents and purposes, sPvP and WvW exists outside the narrative and is only flimsily explained with “the Mists”.

Personally I think that the idea of having a developer made story arc for your character in an MMO is a bad way to do it and is better left for single-player games. Instead the players should dynamically create their own story through interaction. EVE Online is a good example of how to do it, in my opinion. But, that’s very off-topic and a discussion for another time.

Just leaving a thought here: there is a reason why other games have placement matches for every player when starting a new season.

If that’s too much because some will lose rewards from placing too high give rewards based on the placements.

The post is quite serious. Please refer to my original post. I suggested the following as a compromise move;

Keep the solo and group options. I’d personally prefer solo only. As I pointed out in my original post that isn’t going to happen.

Make teams evenly matched and return to “50/50” matchmaking Competition demands a level playing field.

Make any rewards for league play a reward track, unrelated to win/loss This idea and the previous one make the last possible.

Assuming even matches and the transfer of rewards to a reward track, remove “safe” pips Uneven matchmaking is only supported by safe pips. If the current matchmaking continued and safe pips were removed, players would be quickly pushed out of the mid range.

Offering a reward for “everyone” then locking it behind advancement is a basic contradiction. The only possible result of such a situation is a lot of bitterness. The goal of the “legendary” pack was to attract people to pvp. The new people who did arrive were exposed to murderous odds and a near unobtanium reward.

The predicted result of that? an overall reduction in pvp population. Hence my suggestion of a reward track.

Pakkazull.6894:

Ithilwen.1529:

Any man noted for his feats of courage or nobility of purpose; especially, one who has risked or sacrificed his life.

I could go on typing. Note that the individual is emphasized time and again. Not once does this passage mention a group.

You can perform feats of courage and risk your life in a group too, you know.

Ithilwen.1529:

Second, if the game is not to be directed by it’s own narrative, then how will it be directed? If the storyline and the actual game are out of sync, you lose one of the principle attractions of gw2 and it becomes another “streetfighter” type video game.

Well ideally the narrative should fit the gameplay, which is a bit late for a game that has been out for almost four years. For all intents and purposes, sPvP and WvW exists outside the narrative and is only flimsily explained with “the Mists”.

Personally I think that the idea of having a developer made story arc for your character in an MMO is a bad way to do it and is better left for single-player games. Instead the players should dynamically create their own story through interaction. EVE Online is a good example of how to do it, in my opinion. But, that’s very off-topic and a discussion for another time.

I imagine sPvP to be a program like Super Adventure Box where teams of people face off against each other. It’s one big Asura or even Forgotten virtual reality simulator that people watch for sport. Yes, there is television or at least entertainment in Tyria. “My transient relay will revolutionize the industry” could be heard in the crafting area in Lion’s Arch, and “the industry” references show business. So we know there are things like movies and TV shows in Tyria.

Ithilwen, I agree with you on the reward track. Anet put the prize out there to draw in PvE players. Anyone who plays enough games and tries for the prize will eventually have it, regardless of skill level. So it basically already is just one big reward track, just overly complicated. The backpiece in no way represents a player’s skill level, so it might as well be on a reward track.

As for solo queue only, that can never happen. Just as some people can’t be bothered to form a team, other players prefer to team up with friends and play together. You also can’t seperate the queues, because then queue times for team queue gets out of hand.

The best solution is team queue only for ranked. If Anet facilitated the use of the sPvP LFG tool it would be as easy as forming a dungeon group, which would be helpful to people who are only used to solo queueing. However, a lot of solo queue players protest this so I doubt this will ever happen.

So as you said we keep the same merged queue we have now. As for matchmaking, I’m with the idea they should ditch the pip system, show everyone their mmr, and match them based purely on mmr. Take a player, match him with 9 people out of the full pool of players queueing that are as close as possible to his mmr, then divide the 10 players into 2 teams while attempting to keep the average mmr of both teams as even as possible. If mmr is any indication of skill, that should provide the most balanced matches possible.

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

Well the population can’t support both team queue and solo queue. And if the rewards are the same for both, people will take the easiest/fastest route and go solo queue, creating ridiculous queue times.

You also can’t remove team queue, because telling people they can’t play with their friends in a mmo 5v5 pvp match is just plain ridiculous.

So given those options, what do you propose to do?

Shaogin.2679:

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

Well the population can’t support both team queue and solo queue. And if the rewards are the same for both, people will take the easiest/fastest route and go solo queue, creating ridiculous queue times.

You also can’t remove team queue, because telling people they can’t play with their friends in a mmo 5v5 pvp match is just plain ridiculous.

So given those options, what do you propose to do?

Like I said many times before and like many others have also said, split them like they were in the beginning, if people want to play as a team and there’s not a lot of others playing as a team then they’l just have to wait longer or join solo queue, at least matches would be fairer which is a lot better than they are right now. Have you ever wondered why the pvp community is so small? It could have something to do with non fair, non competitive, non fun matches, or at least partly to do with that. I know there’s many other things but that definitely is a part of the reason.

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

So why is it I can strictly solo Q and still beat full teams? Im not beating esl level teams or anything like that and even if I had a team I wouldn’t win…… but I am beating teams as a solo Q player.

NeXeD.3042:

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

So why is it I can strictly solo Q and still beat full teams? Im not beating esl level teams or anything like that and even if I had a team I wouldn’t win…… but I am beating teams as a solo Q player.

Duh you’re getting put on good teams, something lower mmr players don’t have the pleasure of, and probably put against some of those teams that don’t try that hard to win ( I feel sorry for the poor solo players who get put on teams with these kinds of premades) Everyone knows SOME premades suck, but most organized decent premades will slaughter your average solo player team. If I had the choice I’d never be put on a team with a premade or against a premade, that’s how I want to play, I don’t think it’s too much to ask.

I agree. I think removing solo queue was a huge error.

There’s no way I know of to convince anet of that though. They are apparently intent on creating “group” content. I think that too is a mistake.

My perception is that what is said in forums, stays in forums.

I’m just going to leave off with this statement for solo players.

ANet and the privileged of the bads, have made it clear “your KIND is not welcomed here. Go find another game to enjoy. If you want fair matches as a casual solo queuer no matter how good you actually are. So just stop whining, continued getting farmed like the cattle you are, or leave, by the way don’t let the door hit you on the way out”

Reaper Alim.4176:

I’m just going to leave off with this statement for solo players.

ANet and the privileged of the bads, have made it clear “your KIND is not welcomed here. Go find another game to enjoy. If you want fair matches as a casual solo queuer no matter how good you actually are. So just stop whining, continued getting farmed like the cattle you are, or leave, by the way don’t let the door hit you on the way out”

Well, I’m waiting for sea of thieves to come out. If I can run it on my whack computer I’ll probably play that since I’m a sucker for a good pirate game. But I’ve spent way too much money on this game to just leave it forever so stop trying to kick me out -_-

Ithilwen.1529:

I agree. I think removing solo queue was a huge error.

There’s no way I know of to convince anet of that though. They are apparently intent on creating “group” content. I think that too is a mistake.

My perception is that what is said in forums, stays in forums.

Since when did promoting group content on an mmo become a bad thing?

Ellie.5913:

Shaogin.2679:

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

Well the population can’t support both team queue and solo queue. And if the rewards are the same for both, people will take the easiest/fastest route and go solo queue, creating ridiculous queue times.

You also can’t remove team queue, because telling people they can’t play with their friends in a mmo 5v5 pvp match is just plain ridiculous.

So given those options, what do you propose to do?

Like I said many times before and like many others have also said, split them like they were in the beginning, if people want to play as a team and there’s not a lot of others playing as a team then they’l just have to wait longer or join solo queue, at least matches would be fairer which is a lot better than they are right now. Have you ever wondered why the pvp community is so small? It could have something to do with non fair, non competitive, non fun matches, or at least partly to do with that. I know there’s many other things but that definitely is a part of the reason.

Can’t do that, we’ve already established the population can’t support split queues. And PvP population was small before they split the queues.

Shaogin.2679:

Ithilwen.1529:

I agree. I think removing solo queue was a huge error.

There’s no way I know of to convince anet of that though. They are apparently intent on creating “group” content. I think that too is a mistake.

My perception is that what is said in forums, stays in forums.

Since when did promoting group content on an mmo become a bad thing?

Ellie.5913:

Shaogin.2679:

Ellie.5913:

I really hate that everyone thinks it’s ok for solo players, which are the majority, to have unfair matches against organized teams where the solo players usually get slaughtered JUST so the few teams that are out there can have faster queue times. That’s just not right. Fair match or no match. ( a lot of people go afk in extremely horrible matches where they just get continuously slaughtered anyways) I also saw a post where people said sometimes they don’t even try to win in ranked, most likely because they have a premade team so it won’t be hard for them to raise their tanked mmr back up whenever they feel like it or to win since they have a reliable team to do that with, so some 4 person or under premades make solo players that end up on their teams lose which really makes it difficult for the solo player to win from that point on since they will be getting put on worse teams because of lower mmr. So yea team queue and solo queue REALLY needs to be split otherwise solo players will never get fair matches, and what’s the point in playing in unfair matches where you are just gonna be some one’s crop to be farmed so they can advance while you never will, there’s no point in playing matches like that idc if they offered you a million dollars to compete in such matches, you’ll never be able to win so there is no point in it.

Well the population can’t support both team queue and solo queue. And if the rewards are the same for both, people will take the easiest/fastest route and go solo queue, creating ridiculous queue times.

You also can’t remove team queue, because telling people they can’t play with their friends in a mmo 5v5 pvp match is just plain ridiculous.

So given those options, what do you propose to do?

Like I said many times before and like many others have also said, split them like they were in the beginning, if people want to play as a team and there’s not a lot of others playing as a team then they’l just have to wait longer or join solo queue, at least matches would be fairer which is a lot better than they are right now. Have you ever wondered why the pvp community is so small? It could have something to do with non fair, non competitive, non fun matches, or at least partly to do with that. I know there’s many other things but that definitely is a part of the reason.

Can’t do that, we’ve already established the population can’t support split queues. And PvP population was small before they split the queues.

Oh in that case if pvp is way too extremely small they should just get rid of team queue since less people play as a team and more play solo, easy fix. I’m sure people won’t suffer too much if they have to go up against their buddies in a pvp match. You’re just running off people from the majority anyways whenever they see how lame pvp is because of the constant slaughters they have to endure, while never actually getting to play.

Ellie.5913:

Reaper Alim.4176:

I’m just going to leave off with this statement for solo players.

ANet and the privileged of the bads, have made it clear “your KIND is not welcomed here. Go find another game to enjoy. If you want fair matches as a casual solo queuer no matter how good you actually are. So just stop whining, continued getting farmed like the cattle you are, or leave, by the way don’t let the door hit you on the way out”

Well, I’m waiting for sea of thieves to come out. If I can run it on my whack computer I’ll probably play that since I’m a sucker for a good pirate game. But I’ve spent way too much money on this game to just leave it forever so stop trying to kick me out -_-

Lol I’ve spend thousands of dollars over the past 12 to 16months on GW2. I have no regrets about the past spending’s on this game. But I’ll tell you what I actually took Anet’s and the privileged of the bads advice and maybe now played GW2 over the past 2 months mmmm for mmmm lets just give GW2 a bit of leadway and say 8 to 12 hour MAX.

Money spent is spilled milk can’t get that back no matter what. I had a boat load of fun back then, why else would I have spent that type of money on GW2’s Gem store? But I’ll tell you what soon a ANet stop providing me with fun and started punishing my for being a solo queuer in PvP. I completely stopped supporting ANet financially because they stopped supporting me as a player who paid to play there game. Ultimately I understand that is there right and I am not entitled to their support, but on the same hand nether are they entitled to my continued financial support either. Now all ANet is allowed to get out of me is the spare time of my spare time while queuing up in other games “I love being able to play 2 or 3 games, listen to spotify, and mess around on different games forums at the same time btw”.

Because in my mind time is way more important then money will ever be, simply because you can always get more money, but you can never get more time to live in this lifetime. So might as well spend my time doing something I enjoy. Rather doing something I hate, more so with people who hate my guts simply because I CBA to form or maintain my position on a team, in a non competitive wanna be eSport game. So I went from being a hardcore/core GW2 player to sub-casual level GW2 player that really mostly log in to chat with friends in GW2 while playing my other games and stuff.

End of that very much needed wall of text, for anyone who feels stuck in GW2. Just because they invested a good deal of money. Don’t let money master you, instead become your own master.

Ithilwen.1529:

I agree. I think removing solo queue was a huge error.

There’s no way I know of to convince anet of that though. They are apparently intent on creating “group” content. I think that too is a mistake.

My perception is that what is said in forums, stays in forums.

Please. Please. Please. Explain to me why using LFG for PVP is not a good option. Make it a 5 person party requirement to queue, then use the LFG to team up. I mean, if it’s got to be one or the other (solo queue only or team queue only) then the choice has to be team queue.

R O C.6574:

Ithilwen.1529:

I agree. I think removing solo queue was a huge error.

There’s no way I know of to convince anet of that though. They are apparently intent on creating “group” content. I think that too is a mistake.

My perception is that what is said in forums, stays in forums.

Please. Please. Please. Explain to me why using LFG for PVP is not a good option. Make it a 5 person party requirement to queue, then use the LFG to team up. I mean, if it’s got to be one or the other (solo queue only or team queue only) then the choice has to be team queue.

Nah way more solo queuing players then team queuing players. So I’m sorry if they want to make money off of pvp it’ll have to be solo queues, if it can only be one or the other.

The choice of “hardcore” style pvp players would have to be team queue. That group is too small to support pvp on it’s own.

GW2 is a casual game. Witness ANET’s effort to attract pve players to pvp. No, if one could choose only team or solo, then solo would be the logical choice.

@ROC I’ve been an avid dungeon runner for a long time. When I first started, I’d often find myself kicked from a party without explanation.

Later I learned that I had been rejected because it was considered my gear wasn’t adequate or I had made some mistake. Or I simply wasn’t a geared out 80.

I have Dungeon Master and know a couple of the runs like the back of my hand. Still, on my alt account thief I couldn’t get into a party. She hadn’t made 80 yet.

For this reason, I am careful to make my lfg “all welcome” When I lead groups. Countless times I’ve heard players wonder why they couldn’t get on a party or got kicked. It still happens in places like Arah.

There are few if any randoms running raids. I tried but was kicked after I made some error that was never explained. This was on one of my main account Mesmers, in full ascended gear, ( including Wings of Dwayna, ironically.)

With the attitude in pvp, it would very quickly become a situation of only select players ever getting on a team.

What would the rejected players do? They’d leave. All team is a disastrous scheme and I fervently hope anet is clearsighted enough to see that.

It’s a really messy issue. On the one hand it sucks for solo players that they can be matched against pre-mades. On the other, there’s nothing stopping solo players looking for people to group up with.

Ellie brought up the point in another thread, that the majority of players would prefer to just jump in and play some games. I think she is correct about that. It’s like when you boot up your Xbox and you want to go play some Halo multiplayer. You just want to jump in and play, no messing around sitting in a lobby.

I can see the point of view from the team players too. They want to group with guildies and friends, which is pretty much a given in a MMORPG, because it’s a multiplayer game, not a single player game. It seems that the logical thing to do, is bring back the seperate queues, but Anet removed them to reduce queue times. It seems like the only fix would be to inject a new influx of players into PvP, but that’s not something they can do. They tried to draw people in with the Legendary Backpiece and look what that did.

At this point it just feels like a sinking ship.

Ithilwen.1529:

The choice of “hardcore” style pvp players would have to be team queue. That group is too small to support pvp on it’s own.

GW2 is a casual game. Witness ANET’s effort to attract pve players to pvp. No, if one could choose only team or solo, then solo would be the logical choice.

@ROC I’ve been an avid dungeon runner for a long time. When I first started, I’d often find myself kicked from a party without explanation.

Later I learned that I had been rejected because it was considered my gear wasn’t adequate or I had made some mistake. Or I simply wasn’t a geared out 80.

I have Dungeon Master and know a couple of the runs like the back of my hand. Still, on my alt account thief I couldn’t get into a party. She hadn’t made 80 yet.

For this reason, I am careful to make my lfg “all welcome” When I lead groups. Countless times I’ve heard players wonder why they couldn’t get on a party or got kicked. It still happens in places like Arah.

There are few if any randoms running raids. I tried but was kicked after I made some error that was never explained. This was on one of my main account Mesmers, in full ascended gear, ( including Wings of Dwayna, ironically.)

With the attitude in pvp, it would very quickly become a situation of only select players ever getting on a team.

What would the rejected players do? They’d leave. All team is a disastrous scheme and I fervently hope anet is clearsighted enough to see that.

With your mindset, why even play the game at all? According to you, if you simply show up to something enough you should be rewarded with top tier items. I don’t want to beat the dungeon/raid; just give me the phat lewts because I’m here.

The best option to appease everyone wouls be to split the queues, but provide greater rewards for team queue. I know solo queue players might find this unfair. Better rewards for team queue is completely fair though considering it would be a more competitive environment that requires more effort to get in to, such as having to get a team together.

This way, solo players can have their mode without getting farmed, and team players can have their mode and hopefully the increased rewards will draw more players to try team queue, thus reducing team queue times.

Pyriall.1683:

Ithilwen.1529:

The choice of “hardcore” style pvp players would have to be team queue. That group is too small to support pvp on it’s own.

GW2 is a casual game. Witness ANET’s effort to attract pve players to pvp. No, if one could choose only team or solo, then solo would be the logical choice.

@ROC I’ve been an avid dungeon runner for a long time. When I first started, I’d often find myself kicked from a party without explanation.

Later I learned that I had been rejected because it was considered my gear wasn’t adequate or I had made some mistake. Or I simply wasn’t a geared out 80.

I have Dungeon Master and know a couple of the runs like the back of my hand. Still, on my alt account thief I couldn’t get into a party. She hadn’t made 80 yet.

For this reason, I am careful to make my lfg “all welcome” When I lead groups. Countless times I’ve heard players wonder why they couldn’t get on a party or got kicked. It still happens in places like Arah.

There are few if any randoms running raids. I tried but was kicked after I made some error that was never explained. This was on one of my main account Mesmers, in full ascended gear, ( including Wings of Dwayna, ironically.)

With the attitude in pvp, it would very quickly become a situation of only select players ever getting on a team.

What would the rejected players do? They’d leave. All team is a disastrous scheme and I fervently hope anet is clearsighted enough to see that.

With your mindset, why even play the game at all? According to you, if you simply show up to something enough you should be rewarded with top tier items. I don’t want to beat the dungeon/raid; just give me the phat lewts because I’m here.

This, 100×. I don’t care if you’ve played 500 more games than me, or even 10000 more games than me, if you don’t deserve the wings, you shouldn’t get them, no matter how much you participate.

@Pyriall and Ruru

You both missed my point completely. I’m a pretty proficient dungeon runner. On a good day, I can dodge Alpha indefinitely and one-shot Lupi. ( To “one shot” in this case means to defeat her without a team wipe.)

Despite that, showing up on my alt, I couldn’t even get on a party. She was deemed unworthy .

Fractals and raids have similar issues. Elitist groups will kick without any notice or explanation.

If ANET chose to make PvP team only, the elitism would quickly exclude most players.

As to grinding versus skill. I have my dungeon master. I’ve successfully completed every path in every dungeon. At times, I have even taken very low level party members through dungeons as a challenge to myself.

No I am not asking for a handout. In raids, I don’t even get the chance to try. In high level fractals the story is the same.

I can see it now: "What? You can’t get on a PvP party? Well git gud! "

You can’t “git gud” without practice and you can’t practice without convincing someone that your are “gud.” CATCH 22 Team only would cause severe damage to pvp which is already tottering.

Ithilwen.1529:

@Pyriall and Ruru

You both missed my point completely. I’m a pretty proficient dungeon runner. On a good day, I can dodge Alpha indefinitely and one-shot Lupi. ( To “one shot” in this case means to defeat her without a team wipe.)

Despite that, showing up on my alt, I couldn’t even get on a party. She was deemed unworthy .

Fractals and raids have similar issues. Elitist groups will kick without any notice or explanation.

If ANET chose to make PvP team only, the elitism would quickly exclude most players.

As to grinding versus skill. I have my dungeon master. I’ve successfully completed every path in every dungeon. At times, I have even taken very low level party members through dungeons as a challenge to myself.

No I am not asking for a handout. In raids, I don’t even get the chance to try. In high level fractals the story is the same.

I can see it now: "What? You can’t get on a PvP party? Well git gud! "

You can’t “git gud” without practice and you can’t practice without convincing someone that your are “gud.” CATCH 22 Team only would cause severe damage to pvp which is already tottering.

And a solo queue only would prevent players from being able to play with their friends on an mmo. Which is why I made the following suggestion:

Shaogin.2679:

The best option to appease everyone wouls be to split the queues, but provide greater rewards for team queue. I know solo queue players might find this unfair. Better rewards for team queue is completely fair though considering it would be a more competitive environment that requires more effort to get in to, such as having to get a team together.

This way, solo players can have their mode without getting farmed, and team players can have their mode and hopefully the increased rewards will draw more players to try team queue, thus reducing team queue times.

I agree. The best solution would be to split the queues again. Solo and team. Unfortunately I suspect ANET will not consider that option. They are stubbornly pushing for group content and Esports.

The reality is that players in this game exclude wherever the game allows them to. This is why high level fractals and raids will always be smallish clubs.

If anet went all team in pvp, it would quickly be off-limits to me and to many others. I’m sure that would please some, but it would make PvP even less relevant than it is now.

Ithilwen.1529:

I agree. The best solution would be to split the queues again. Solo and team. Unfortunately I suspect ANET will not consider that option. They are stubbornly pushing for group content and Esports.

The reality is that players in this game exclude wherever the game allows them to. This is why high level fractals and raids will always be smallish clubs.

If anet went all team in pvp, it would quickly be off-limits to me and to many others. I’m sure that would please some, but it would make PvP even less relevant than it is now.

I really think that ANet should just go ahead and make PvP team only. This way the game mode can get it’s death out of the way, and people can find something else to complain about on these forums. We all know in the end ANet “is” going to make the game mode require “Pre Made” team to enter ranked.

I sincerely hope not. I agree, it would be one of the last nails in the coffin. I enjoy PvP as much as I kitten about it.

I used to play Final Fantasy 11 back when I was a teenager. That game was REALLY hardcore. You needed a group to do the majority of things in the game, even just leveling up required you to be a in a group.

You could solo until about level 12-14, then you needed a group. It was a very social MMO. Even unlocking the new classes in the expansion packs was really difficult. I only unlocked about 2 or 3 of the expansion classes. I believe the game is still up and running to this day, still charging it’s monthly fee, but I digress.

It would be interesting to see what happens to queue times if they seperated the queues again. I wonder if the queue times would go up even more, if just the team queue would be bad.