Guild Wars 2

I dont mind too much the other conditions, they add effects which if used correctly can changed the tide of a fights, example; poison, by itself it doesnt do much damage and spamming it is counterproductive for the most part, but if timed correctly before a heal then it is effective. Weakness inflicts no damage, but can negate a lot. Burning is strong, but the damage is something you can kind of calculate in your head since it is constant, confusion has nice visual cues and usually is a trade off if you are willing to go through it.

Bleed?

As a 11k class player I must say this is an abomination. Literally a fight of about 7-10 seconds end up with me with a total of 17k-19k bleed damage over the spawn of the entire fight. It isnt so much about the damage, but how easily accessible it is for some classes, which apply it on autoattacks, on normals skills for long duration and large stacks.

I think what this meta needs to control the condition spam is to cut down bleeds a bit.
Now, I love bleeds as much as the next guy, but even I admit that they are a little out of control. Major offenders are necros, warriors, engis and rangers. Im actually kind of wondering if burning does need some tuning down, but my opinin is biased since I play guardian.

Another solution is; make bleeds stack in large quantities on skills, such a way that they do the same net damage. Instead of constantly reapplying them in which case I havent heard of a class that has a condition cleansing spell on an autoattack CD..

Spammable low risk dmg in general is a problem, not just condition necessarily.

News flash… conditions are out of control period and they usually are complimented by toughness or vitality… go figure.

You might call me crazy but I think they need to be cut in half. If you want to survive forever sure but dont ‘burst’ me with conditions.

There should be a simple ratio of dmg out vs dmg in and maybe time as a consideration for the longer duration fighting classes. But its way off right now.

Warrior bleeds are fine, they are single target unlike all of the aoe bleeds from other classes.

Knote.2904:

Spammable low risk dmg in general is a problem, not just condition necessarily.

so true.

pot.6805:

Warrior bleeds are fine, they are single target unlike all of the aoe bleeds from other classes.

AoE bleeds tend to be very limited in terms of use, and maybe stack 4-6 bleeds on a few targets IF you manage to hit all of them.

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

Dirame.8521:

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

That’s another thing, there’s too many spammed short duration conditions which are essentially immune to condition cleanse.

Which is more threatening :

1.) 3 bleeds per second (3 second duration each).

or

2.) 3 bleeds per 5 seconds (15 second duration each).

Compare Warrior Longbow Burst ability to Thief’s Death Blossom, one is countered pretty hard by cleanse, the other is practically immune.

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

That’s another thing, there’s too many spammed short duration conditions which are essentially immune to condition cleanse.

Which is more threatening :

1.) 3 bleeds per second (3 second duration each).

or

2.) 3 bleeds per 5 seconds (15 second duration each).

Compare Warrior Longbow Burst ability to Thief’s Death Blossom, one is countered pretty hard by cleanse, the other is practically immune.

It really depends on what build you have. Some builds can cleanse so much that neither of those would even make a scratch, other builds would die to both and, like you said, some builds can definitely handle the Warrior more so than the Thief.

It’s all about the build.

Dirame.8521:

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

That’s another thing, there’s too many spammed short duration conditions which are essentially immune to condition cleanse.

Which is more threatening :

1.) 3 bleeds per second (3 second duration each).

or

2.) 3 bleeds per 5 seconds (15 second duration each).

Compare Warrior Longbow Burst ability to Thief’s Death Blossom, one is countered pretty hard by cleanse, the other is practically immune.

It really depends on what build you have. Some builds can cleanse so much that neither of those would even make a scratch, other builds would die to both and, like you said, some builds can definitely handle the Warrior more so than the Thief.

It’s all about the build.

No, even if you had a passive that cleansed every 2 seconds, my first example would do way more dmg than the second example.

Which is my point, since so much of the dmg is upfront a huge majority of the dmg is practically immune to cleanse.

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

That’s another thing, there’s too many spammed short duration conditions which are essentially immune to condition cleanse.

Which is more threatening :

1.) 3 bleeds per second (3 second duration each).

or

2.) 3 bleeds per 5 seconds (15 second duration each).

Compare Warrior Longbow Burst ability to Thief’s Death Blossom, one is countered pretty hard by cleanse, the other is practically immune.

It really depends on what build you have. Some builds can cleanse so much that neither of those would even make a scratch, other builds would die to both and, like you said, some builds can definitely handle the Warrior more so than the Thief.

It’s all about the build.

No, even if you had a passive that cleansed every 2 seconds, my first example would do way more dmg than the second example.

Which is my point, since so much of the dmg is upfront a huge majority of the dmg is practically immune to cleanse.

The damage is not upfront because it still needs to tick over half it’s duration in order to get the most out of it and cutting it off anywhere in the chain would reduce the damage.
I think you’re making bleed a bigger deal than it ought to be.

Dirame.8521:

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Knote.2904:

Dirame.8521:

Dunno, cleansing bleeds is quite easy. Which probably warrants the damage.

That’s another thing, there’s too many spammed short duration conditions which are essentially immune to condition cleanse.

Which is more threatening :

1.) 3 bleeds per second (3 second duration each).

or

2.) 3 bleeds per 5 seconds (15 second duration each).

Compare Warrior Longbow Burst ability to Thief’s Death Blossom, one is countered pretty hard by cleanse, the other is practically immune.

It really depends on what build you have. Some builds can cleanse so much that neither of those would even make a scratch, other builds would die to both and, like you said, some builds can definitely handle the Warrior more so than the Thief.

It’s all about the build.

No, even if you had a passive that cleansed every 2 seconds, my first example would do way more dmg than the second example.

Which is my point, since so much of the dmg is upfront a huge majority of the dmg is practically immune to cleanse.

The damage is not upfront because it still needs to tick over half it’s duration in order to get the most out of it and cutting it off anywhere in the chain would reduce the damage.
I think you’re making bleed a bigger deal than it ought to be.

It’s more upfront that the 2nd example, and is punished WAY less by cleanse.

Here’s another example :

1 bleed stack (60 sec duration).

5 bleed stack (12 sec duration).

Same damage output overall and target cleanses every 6 seconds.

The 1 bleed stack only gets 10% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, while the 5 bleed stack gets 50% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, massive difference.

There are a lot of skills with short duration conditions that are reapplied a lot, then you have things like Ranger Torch throw that is just a single long application (which is countered by cleanse harder).

Now compare that Torch skill to the other Torch skill that reapplies 1 second of burning every second, will cleanse do anything to the latter?

Knote.2904:

Here’s another example :

1 bleed stack (60 sec duration).

5 bleed stack (12 sec duration).

Same damage output overall and target cleanses every 6 seconds.

The 1 bleed stack only gets 10% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, while the 5 bleed stack gets 50% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, massive difference.

Exactly this.

The problem isnt that bleed is too strong, I believe the damage is ok. What I dont think is ok is the fact that most skills that apply them do it quite often, rendering cleanses useless because even if yuo were to cleanse it, it probably had 2-3 seconds left, but alas another short 5 second 2 stacks bleed is applied….

Fortus.6175:

Knote.2904:

Here’s another example :

1 bleed stack (60 sec duration).

5 bleed stack (12 sec duration).

Same damage output overall and target cleanses every 6 seconds.

The 1 bleed stack only gets 10% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, while the 5 bleed stack gets 50% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, massive difference.

Exactly this.

The problem isnt that bleed is too strong, I believe the damage is ok. What I dont think is ok is the fact that most skills that apply them do it quite often, rendering cleanses useless because even if yuo were to cleanse it, it probably had 2-3 seconds left, but alas another short 5 second 2 stacks bleed is applied….

Actually, one of my favorite parts of the game is condition management—meaning how you deal with the conditions that are on yourself. Passive cleansing is kind of lame, but if you have a few active cleanses, it’s really fun to have to think about how to get the most out of them.

If you’re getting focused in a teamfight, you could have a long row of conditions on you. You need to get to the bleed stack, but it’s covered. Suddenly the ranger switches back to shortbow and starts re-applying bleed constantly—bam, you know you can get it because of the last in, first out rule. Other times, you may have to wait until the exactly right moment to use a cleanse. Sometimes, you know you can’t get to the important one so you absolutely must blow a multiple condi cleanse. Or you have to call out to your teammates for a cleanse.

There’s no way condition removal can “keep up” with application, which was intentional. If it could, anyone could easily shut down every single condition build just by cleansing every few seconds. The fun part is the micro of getting the most out of your cleanses. It’s incredibly difficult to do perfectly and it’s one of the reasons people think that skillcap is low. Skillcap is not low.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Fortus.6175:

Knote.2904:

Here’s another example :

1 bleed stack (60 sec duration).

5 bleed stack (12 sec duration).

Same damage output overall and target cleanses every 6 seconds.

The 1 bleed stack only gets 10% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, while the 5 bleed stack gets 50% of it’s dmg out before being cleansed, massive difference.

Exactly this.

The problem isnt that bleed is too strong, I believe the damage is ok. What I dont think is ok is the fact that most skills that apply them do it quite often, rendering cleanses useless because even if yuo were to cleanse it, it probably had 2-3 seconds left, but alas another short 5 second 2 stacks bleed is applied….

Actually, one of my favorite parts of the game is condition management—meaning how you deal with the conditions that are on yourself. Passive cleansing is kind of lame, but if you have a few active cleanses, it’s really fun to have to think about how to get the most out of them.

If you’re getting focused in a teamfight, you could have a long row of conditions on you. You need to get to the bleed stack, but it’s covered. Suddenly the ranger switches back to shortbow and starts re-applying bleed constantly—bam, you know you can get it because of the last in, first out rule. Other times, you may have to wait until the exactly right moment to use a cleanse. Sometimes, you know you can’t get to the important one so you absolutely must blow a multiple condi cleanse. Or you have to call out to your teammates for a cleanse.

There’s no way condition removal can “keep up” with application, which was intentional. If it could, anyone could easily shut down every single condition build just by cleansing every few seconds. The fun part is the micro of getting the most out of your cleanses. It’s incredibly difficult to do perfectly and it’s one of the reasons people think that skillcap is low. Skillcap is not low.

Sigh.

I never said cleansing is supposed to keep up with application.

You’re completely missing my point and actually proving it.

1. I do think passive cleanse is also bad just as bad as passive dmg, everything needs player input, for the most part.

2. What you just said about waiting for the right time to cleanse, that only applies to bleeds/conditions that have a long duration and aren’t spammable.

What I mean is, if there was an auto attack that applies 10 stacks of bleed that lasted 1 second, how would cleanse do anything against that? How does cleanse stop things that apply lots of small bleeds? You can wait for a Thief to foolishly Death Blossom x3 then cleanse all 9-11 stacks of bleed, but if he pops caltrops on you cleanse is useless against it (yes you can move out of it, but that’s not the point I’m making here.)

Now you have stuff like War Longbow Burst skill that applies 2s burning every 2 seconds and can nearly have 100% uptime and covers 90% of control points, how does cleansing stop that? It doesn’t, that’s the point I’m making here.

Nevir, you have been missing the point all this time;

nobody should have mindless cleanses/conditions, because at the end of the day, the one that has the most wins, and right now we dont have any mindless cleanse but we have plenty of mindless condition (small duration) spam.

Take an example, a ranger with shortbow, or a warrior rifle, will be applying bleeds constantly (ranger conditionally, but the game is buggy enough to make it almost always guaranteed) , small duration, but cleanse will do absolutely nothing to it. Are you really ok with that? Shouldnt conditions be , as you said yourself, something that you tactically use at the right time? To me that isnt tactical at all

Fortus.6175:

Nevir, you have been missing the point all this time;

nobody should have mindless cleanses/conditions, because at the end of the day, the one that has the most wins, and right now we dont have any mindless cleanse but we have plenty of mindless condition (small duration) spam.

Take an example, a ranger with shortbow, or a warrior rifle, will be applying bleeds constantly (ranger conditionally, but the game is buggy enough to make it almost always guaranteed) , small duration, but cleanse will do absolutely nothing to it. Are you really ok with that? Shouldnt conditions be , as you said yourself, something that you tactically use at the right time? To me that isnt tactical at all

War Rifle is slow enough to be countered by cleanse for the most part.

But, there is plenty of passive/mindless cleanse, just look at any of the “cleanse per x seconds” traits/passives, or even procs, or random light field finishers.

How is a low-condi damage auto attack so different from a low direct damage auto? The feeling that you absolutely must have your condition bar clean is what I meant by feeling that cleansing should “keep up” with application.

Let’s say you cleanse nothing, face backward, and take the full 400 bleed damage from every shortbow auto. How is that so much worse than a direct damage auto? (except for sun spirit burning, but that’s another issue). If you’re getting beaten by spirits, say that, not that condi application on autoattack is killing you.

NevirSayDie.6235:

How is a low-condi damage auto attack so different from a low direct damage auto? The feeling that you absolutely must have your condition bar clean is what I meant by feeling that cleansing should “keep up” with application.

Let’s say you cleanse nothing, face backward, and take the full 400 bleed damage from every shortbow auto. How is that so much worse than a direct damage auto? (except for sun spirit burning, but that’s another issue). If you’re getting beaten by spirits, say that, not that condi application on autoattack is killing you.

Well for one, it ignores armor.