Kor The Cold Heart War
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Boon Removal
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The devs intentionally put the majority of boon stripping ability on mesmers and necros. It was the same way in GW1. If you simply add boon stripping abilities to each class that would nerf mesmers and necros (relative to other classes) and would mess with the class lore.
The classes without boon strips were balanced around the fact they don’t have them. They even specifically said so in some of the class design philosophies they put out a while ago (i.e. warrior damage was balanced to “power through” boons). So while adding boon strips to every class would add that counterplay for that individual class vs boons, it reduces the synergy between classes (i.e. timing your spike with your mesmer/necro’s boon strips), and if anything I think this game needs more of this class synergy.
The devs intentionally put the majority of boon stripping ability on mesmers and necros. It was the same way in GW1. If you simply add boon stripping abilities to each class that would nerf mesmers and necros (relative to other classes) and would mess with the class lore.
The classes without boon strips were balanced around the fact they don’t have them. They even specifically said so in some of the class design philosophies they put out a while ago (i.e. warrior damage was balanced to “power through” boons). So while adding boon strips to every class would add that counterplay for that individual class vs boons, it reduces the synergy between classes (i.e. timing your spike with your mesmer/necro’s boon strips), and if anything I think this game needs more of this class synergy.
See that’s all fine on paper… But in practice it doesnt work and hasnt worked.
The issue is that not just 2 classes have boons. Not just 2 classes assign boons or have the majority of boons. Almost every class has access to almost every boon. Due to their availability every class should have some capability to counter them, which they currently dont.
How does a warrior handle protection? he doesnt… how does he handle regen? he cant poison… so… more damage? I guess he can stun/knock heals if they dont have stability but the main weapon GS and the main utilities dont use interrupts (except Bulls Charge which you cant use for that cuz u need it for UR 100BLADE BRO) Those things aren’t counters warriors just do damage to begin with. It isn’t well thought out or solid gameplay.
how do rangers handle boons… well they have poison for regen… they have unblockable traps against aegis?
how about thieves? well either take bountiful theft which is awesome OR USE THE TERRIBLE SWORD DAG COMBO!!!!!! yeah…
See where the problems are?
Boons make up a LARGE part of pvp mechanics and need to have some feasible counter on a 1v1 basis. Not all the time, not in every build, not in every situation or at great lengths… they just need access
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
The other problem is the nullification runes arent timed or on demand. I can CHOOSE when i want boons removed with spinal shivers and bountiful theft. I can play with arcane thievery and flanking strike strategically. Nullification does not give me that option, I am at the mercy of RNG to determine if I remove a boon or not. That isn’t counter play, that’s prayer and hope that it works out for you in the way you want.
I agree with this in the specific sense, but in the general sense no.
Boon removal is intentionally class specific.
Nullifications existence is so that those not made for it, can do something about it.
How does a warrior handle protection? he doesnt… how does he handle regen? he cant poison… so… more damage? I guess he can stun/knock heals if they dont have stability but the main weapon GS and the main utilities dont use interrupts (except Bulls Charge which you cant use for that cuz u need it for UR 100BLADE BRO) Those things aren’t counters warriors just do damage to begin with. It isn’t well thought out or solid gameplay.
A warrior Smashes on you with protection with the highest damage in the kitten game.
Protection isn’t supposed to be worthless. A warrior is not supposed to remove it, he get’s a teammate to do that. Not because he actually needs protection removed to function, it makes his job easier. When you hit as hard as a warrior does, making you cut through all defenses is insane.
The great forum duppy.
(edited by ensoriki.5789)
The devs intentionally put the majority of boon stripping ability on mesmers and necros. It was the same way in GW1. If you simply add boon stripping abilities to each class that would nerf mesmers and necros (relative to other classes) and would mess with the class lore.
The classes without boon strips were balanced around the fact they don’t have them. They even specifically said so in some of the class design philosophies they put out a while ago (i.e. warrior damage was balanced to “power through” boons). So while adding boon strips to every class would add that counterplay for that individual class vs boons, it reduces the synergy between classes (i.e. timing your spike with your mesmer/necro’s boon strips), and if anything I think this game needs more of this class synergy.
See that’s all fine on paper… But in practice it doesnt work and hasnt worked.
The issue is that not just 2 classes have boons. Not just 2 classes assign boons or have the majority of boons. Almost every class has access to almost every boon. Due to their availability every class should have some capability to counter them, which they currently dont.
How does a warrior handle protection? he doesnt… how does he handle regen? he cant poison… so… more damage? I guess he can stun/knock heals if they dont have stability but the main weapon GS and the main utilities dont use interrupts (except Bulls Charge which you cant use for that cuz u need it for UR 100BLADE BRO) Those things aren’t counters warriors just do damage to begin with. It isn’t well thought out or solid gameplay.
how do rangers handle boons… well they have poison for regen… they have unblockable traps against aegis?
how about thieves? well either take bountiful theft which is awesome OR USE THE TERRIBLE SWORD DAG COMBO!!!!!! yeah…
See where the problems are?
Boons make up a LARGE part of pvp mechanics and need to have some feasible counter on a 1v1 basis. Not all the time, not in every build, not in every situation or at great lengths… they just need access
You are missing my point. Warriors handle protection by just DPS’ing through it, which is why 100B hits as hard as it does. Warriors are balanced around the fact that they DON’T have boon strips. Are Warriors balanced? Many would say they are not. But my point isn’t about current balance. My point was that by adding boon strips to every class is too simplistic and would make balance even worse and mess with class lore a great deal (I know a lot of people don’t care about lore, but it is something you would have to consider as a game developer).
Like I said above, it was the same way in GW1, so you cannot say from a design standpoint this cannot work. Yes the two games have vastly different, and there is much more team coordination in GW1 due to how the combat system worked, but as I said above I think GW2 could really use some more team coordination, instead of everybody rolling strong 1v1 classes as most people seem to do currently.
Boons make up a LARGE part of pvp mechanics and need to have some feasible counter on a 1v1 basis. Not all the time, not in every build, not in every situation or at great lengths… they just need access
1v1? It’s called patience.
If you wanted done in a timely manner you grab a second person.
We could do with some improved/more options but throwing it on every profession ain’t right.
The great forum duppy.
“A warrior Smashes on you with protection with the highest damage in the kitten game.
Protection isn’t supposed to be worthless. A warrior is not supposed to remove it, he get’s a teammate to do that. Not because he actually needs protection removed to function, it makes his job easier. When you hit as hard as a warrior does, making you cut through all defenses is insane.”
THAT quote sounds a lot like having a pocket healer follow me around…isn’t that directly against the ideals behind the design of this game?
I’m not missing your point, im disagreeing with it. Pure damage (no matter how much) isnt a counter to a % based damage reduction steroid. This is why many games have Armor ignore and Power/Damage on different stats, cuz they do different things. A warrior simply doing more damage only makes protection more effective against that warrior because it isnt a flat amount, its 33%. Conditions are supposed to counter tankiness, but condi removal is so overdone that this is no longer true in most cases. Specific mechanics that already exist (boon removal) are meant to counter other specific mechanics (boons).
You could say “damage counters healing cuz it does more damage, so if they heal just burst them”… ok but it doesnt. Poison counters healing, more damage doesnt counter healing, its just more damage.
ANET: “Professions are meant to be self sufficient and be able to handle situations in different ways specific to their own tools”
^that was their reasoning in removing the trinity…so answer why this is suddenly not true when it comes to boons. Damage does not counter boons. Not only does it not counter protection, aegis, regen, but it HELPS retaliation, AND it does nothing against fury, might, vigor, and swiftness. So that argument that a warrior simply powers through things like protection is completely off base.
Additionally LORE? flanking strike works how in the lore?
A warrior KICKS YOU SO HARD that you lose your balanced stability or protection. This makes sense, he kicks the wind out of you and you lose a boon due to lack of focus. A ele BURNS the boons from you with arcane fire…makes sense to me. A ranger’s pets have all sorts of magical properties that could make it make sense in the lore.
In terms of boon stripping additions being too simplistic look at what i chose to add it to in my OP. The utilities are all underused or not used at all. This increases build diversity and requires you to give up established “necessary” utilities in order to be able to remove 1-2 boons. If you dont time those 1-2 boons to remove stuff you actually need to remove then it goes to waste. No one will have anything anywhere near Necro or Mesmer levels of removal because they still have a specialty in this area and if you want reliable AOE removal you take one of them. This shouldnt bar all others from having this capability even if it is extremely limited. This strategy in timing and countering play increases game depth… so I see NO bearing in your statements.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
Boons make up a LARGE part of pvp mechanics and need to have some feasible counter on a 1v1 basis. Not all the time, not in every build, not in every situation or at great lengths… they just need access
1v1? It’s called patience.
If you wanted done in a timely manner you grab a second person.
We could do with some improved/more options but throwing it on every profession ain’t right.
No one has yet explained WHY it wouldn’t be right. All i’ve heard is it would make boons useless, but the suggestions I’ve made require sacrifices in other areas to take boon removal and it is limited in that sense and in the sense that it would only be 1-2 boons removed. So please explain to me how, with how fast i can replace removed boons, this would completely destroy boons rather than MAKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY THING ABOUT WHEN THEYRE USING THEM FOR A CHANGE
And yes balancing on a 1v1 AND a 5v5 team basis is the only real way to make a well balanced game. Classes need to not completely outmatch eachother when they are running similarly themed builds (dmg, defense, healing) and also need to not have insane AOE for teamfights (as an example). This is because a large portion of pvp is in on the small scale. I VERY RARELY see any 5v5 fights in tPvP, if ever.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
That’s not about pocket healing.
It’s saying a Warrior can whack on you regardless of protection and drop your health like a domino. He’s more efficient if someone removes it for him, but it doesn’t change that he can hit incredibly hard even through protection. On his own? He’s still the hardest hitter. Warriors dilemma is not lacking boon removal on an individual level, they have crippling weakness in other area’s that significantly hurt them.
^that was their reasoning in removing the trinity…so answer why this is suddenly not true when it comes to boons. Damage does not counter boons. Not only does it not counter protection, aegis, regen, but it HELPS retaliation, AND it does nothing against fury, might, vigor, and swiftness. So that argument that a warrior simply powers through things like protection is completely off base.
You didn’t disprove anything in that entire block.
No one has yet explained WHY it wouldn’t be right. All i’ve heard is it would make boons useless, but the suggestions I’ve made require sacrifices in other areas to take boon removal and it is limited in that sense and in the sense that it would only be 1-2 boons removed. So please explain to me how, with how fast i can replace removed boons, this would completely destroy boons rather than MAKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY THING ABOUT WHEN THEYRE USING THEM FOR A CHANGE
People can hardly think about when they’re using them ( to an extent) because of the way most are handled. If more people had boon removal it would just kitten on those who use it period, because they’d eventually be overswamped by frequency and their defenses rendered arbitrary.
As it is now. If your teammate uses boons a lot, there are 3 targets who can be a threat to that, which makes them priority targets in terms of protecting his defense. In exchange he’s generally a priority for him, because he’s what they’re meant to breakdown.
You throw it on everyone and there’s no prioritizing on that level.
It diminishes certain profession relevance and goes against the point of professions tackling things differently, and bringing aspects that the others cannot replicate.
An engi can stealth a teammate.
Not as well as a thief or Mesmer can.
Thief most certainly doesn’t hold pts like a Guardian, Ele, or Engi can.
Should we suddenly give Thieves inherit protection so they can Bunker? Or is it a reason to consider not running 5 thieves because they have class weaknesses that other professions cover up.
In other words, you’re supposed to be weak in certain aspects so others can work with you to accomplish a goal.
The great forum duppy.
(edited by ensoriki.5789)
That’s not about pocket healing.
It’s saying a Warrior can whack on you regardless of protection and drop your health like a domino. He’s more efficient if someone removes it for him, but it doesn’t change that he can hit incredibly hard even through protection. On his own? He’s still the hardest hitter. Warriors dilemma is not lacking boon removal on an individual level, they have crippling weakness in other area’s that significantly hurt them.^that was their reasoning in removing the trinity…so answer why this is suddenly not true when it comes to boons. Damage does not counter boons. Not only does it not counter protection, aegis, regen, but it HELPS retaliation, AND it does nothing against fury, might, vigor, and swiftness. So that argument that a warrior simply powers through things like protection is completely off base.
You didn’t disprove anything in that entire block.
No one has yet explained WHY it wouldn’t be right. All i’ve heard is it would make boons useless, but the suggestions I’ve made require sacrifices in other areas to take boon removal and it is limited in that sense and in the sense that it would only be 1-2 boons removed. So please explain to me how, with how fast i can replace removed boons, this would completely destroy boons rather than MAKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY THING ABOUT WHEN THEYRE USING THEM FOR A CHANGE
People can hardly think about when they’re using them ( to an extent) because of the way most are handled. If more people had boon removal it would just kitten on those who use it period, because they’d eventually be overswamped by frequency and their defenses rendered arbitrary.
As it is now. If your teammate uses boons a lot, there are 3 targets who can be a threat to that, which makes them priority targets in terms of protecting his defense. In exchange he’s generally a priority for him, because he’s what they’re meant to breakdown.
You throw it on everyone and there’s no prioritizing on that level.
It diminishes certain profession relevance and goes against the point of professions tackling things differently, and bringing aspects that the others cannot replicate.
An engi can stealth a teammate.
Not as well as a thief or Mesmer can.
Thief most certainly doesn’t hold pts like a Guardian, Ele, or Engi can.
Should we suddenly give Thieves inherit protection so they can Bunker? Or is it a reason to consider not running 5 thieves because they have class weaknesses that other professions cover up.
In other words, you’re supposed to be weak in certain aspects so others can work with you to accomplish a goal.
The only time that would be true is if literally EVERYONE brought boon removal and nothing else. To do their they would sacrifice a lot of other utilities and damage so i really dont see the issue. It’s a trade off that doesnt exist right now because there is no way for many classes to remove or even deal with boons.
People should think about when they use boons, if they cant then they are not very good players. Timing and strategy is just part of combat depth.
It doesnt diminish relevance because necros and mesmer do not have to build that way and they also will still be the best at it. All other uses are risky and hugely situational, but allow for counterplay. The problem with boons are that everyone has access to it but not everyone has access to things to deal with boons. This is largely different than something like stealth because everyone does not have stealth so there is no expectation for an ability to counter it directly like a “reveal” mechanic. If every class had stealth then I’d argue that it would require specific counter-play too, but since they dont auto attacks / skill shot aoes suffice.
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
Necroing threads from a month ago should be a bannable offense :/
Will the Real Pink Puma Please stand up?
Necroing threads from a month ago should be a bannable offense :/
It’s just as relevant now as it was then since nothing has changed in months…
also how is your post productive?
(edited by Rump Buffalo.2594)
kinda skim read through posts, have you tried not attacking? or kiting around being sneaky waiting for boons to wear off while you bear in mind thier cool downs of skills, thats IF you can read the game?
anyway the point is theyve got it how it is for a reason, theres SO many cool mechanics gw1 had that this dosent, lets concentrate on those before they break boons maybe?
Kick removes a boon, oh man… that would’ve been promising if say “Physical Utility Skills remove a boon, Physical skills recharge 20% faster.”
But kick of all things? C’mon.
Since people are negative about nerfs, how about we buff to balance then?
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