Guild Wars 2

So I got into a bit of an argument with a few friends of mine regarding what makes a game competitive and what makes a game popular enough to be featured in eSports.

One thing came up repeatedly: Simplicity

And I’m not talking about the overall simplicity of the games, some of them can become quite complex. I’m talking about the game basics and game mechanics are simple.

If we have a look at the current sPvP. We can see that the game can be fun to play for some people, mostly hardcore PvPers, but people going in fresh have an issue with it.
I’ve been there. Everything seems like a clusterf#&k and the way to victory isn’t really clear until 5 or 6 loses later. 1v1s make you think your class is kitten and warriors are OP yada yada yada…

It’s all fine and dandy for the most part, except that some people don’t like to stick around when they’re not actually having fun. They play games to have fun, not for the competition. And out of fun, we can make competition. The biggest games to make it into eSports are the ones that anyone can play and have fun. Same with any other sport. Sure they won’t be Micheal Jordan, but they’ll start to beat they’re friends and keep working on their game and start to dream of bring the next Mike.

When everyone just picking up a game can have a blast, that’s when you’ll have your spot in eSports. They drive the community forward. They try things that some others haven’t done yet and BAM! You got yourself a playerbase and a competitive game with little to no effort.

It doesn’t come from these complex scenarios that only people who studies the game beforehand can become valid contenders. It just scares everyone away. Sure the incentive of the reward track helps some people play that wouldn’t normally. But that’s going about it the wrong way. You don’t want to make people play the game for rewards alone. You want people to enjoy it and get something at the same time.

Now, you might ask ‘Why Aboulia.7580, if you’re such an expert on video games, why don’t you tell us how we should do our jobs?’ but alas I’m out of my specialty for that. I don’t know, to be honest.

The game direction of no healers has put a damper on any big scale deathmatches for some obvious reasons (clusterf&#ks, clusterf%@ks everywhere). Which is a shame because deathmatches is the most simple game type a PvP game can have. So you would have to either turn to smaller scaled deathmatches or some kind of other type of mode that anyone can pick up but still have their mistakes punished. The matches has to have an evident goal and the outcome can be changed from one big team play. Games that gets decided in the first 5 minutes are both boring to play, and boring to watch. Unexpected plays is another attraction to any sport, as well as team play.

As a plus to a new pvp mode. Have a nooby bracket just for kittens and giggles and only for people with 20 games or fewer. Have a free for all mode where everyone just kills each other in a big pit. Have some modes close to what the big ranked play is, while making it just for funzies.

There’s no need for the big scale complex matches. The community will do that for you. And they will thank you for it.

Thank you for reading.

esports games, except very well known games like Startcraft or Warcraft, are mostly free to play. But we already paid this game. GG

Aboulia.7580:

So I got into a bit of an argument with a few friends of mine regarding what makes a game competitive and what makes a game popular enough to be featured in eSports.

One thing came up repeatedly: Simplicity

And I’m not talking about the overall simplicity of the games, some of them can become quite complex. I’m talking about the game basics and game mechanics are simple.

If we have a look at the current sPvP. We can see that the game can be fun to play for some people, mostly hardcore PvPers, but people going in fresh have an issue with it.
I’ve been there. Everything seems like a clusterf#&k and the way to victory isn’t really clear until 5 or 6 loses later. 1v1s make you think your class is kitten and warriors are OP yada yada yada…

It’s all fine and dandy for the most part, except that some people don’t like to stick around when they’re not actually having fun. They play games to have fun, not for the competition. And out of fun, we can make competition. The biggest games to make it into eSports are the ones that anyone can play and have fun. Same with any other sport. Sure they won’t be Micheal Jordan, but they’ll start to beat they’re friends and keep working on their game and start to dream of bring the next Mike.

When everyone just picking up a game can have a blast, that’s when you’ll have your spot in eSports. They drive the community forward. They try things that some others haven’t done yet and BAM! You got yourself a playerbase and a competitive game with little to no effort.

It doesn’t come from these complex scenarios that only people who studies the game beforehand can become valid contenders. It just scares everyone away. Sure the incentive of the reward track helps some people play that wouldn’t normally. But that’s going about it the wrong way. You don’t want to make people play the game for rewards alone. You want people to enjoy it and get something at the same time.

Now, you might ask ‘Why Aboulia.7580, if you’re such an expert on video games, why don’t you tell us how we should do our jobs?’ but alas I’m out of my specialty for that. I don’t know, to be honest.

The game direction of no healers has put a damper on any big scale deathmatches for some obvious reasons (clusterf&#ks, clusterf%@ks everywhere). Which is a shame because deathmatches is the most simple game type a PvP game can have. So you would have to either turn to smaller scaled deathmatches or some kind of other type of mode that anyone can pick up but still have their mistakes punished. The matches has to have an evident goal and the outcome can be changed from one big team play. Games that gets decided in the first 5 minutes are both boring to play, and boring to watch. Unexpected plays is another attraction to any sport, as well as team play.

As a plus to a new pvp mode. Have a nooby bracket just for kittens and giggles and only for people with 20 games or fewer. Have a free for all mode where everyone just kills each other in a big pit. Have some modes close to what the big ranked play is, while making it just for funzies.

There’s no need for the big scale complex matches. The community will do that for you. And they will thank you for it.

Thank you for reading.

You know what could allow gw2 to get into the esport picture. Actual, realistic, truly next gen version of guild vs guild. If anet though did go with this idea but dumbed it down or took it a step back like they did with conquest then….gg to gw2.

Kitt.2567:

esports games, except very well known games like Startcraft or Warcraft, are mostly free to play. But we already paid this game. GG

Startcraft is now free to play except for ranked matchmaking and campaign.
All customs and unranked are free. Gw2 pvp could use being free to play, with limits on travel/talking. It would have to prevent gold spam bots and such while still letting newcomers enjoy the game.

I think you’re right, but I think there is something more important..

The game must be technically good and solid. It means : no lags, no bugs, no exploit possible.

That’s why BF4 can’t be a real e-sport (hit box so weird). That’s why LoL is an e-sport : no cheat possible, no exploit possible, almost no lags.

And look at GW2 : they had to restart one of the match of the final in NA ToL because of technical problems. Unacceptable in esport.
Some players used a bug to gain some extra power. Unacceptable in e-sport.
A thief was stuck on the roof in Khylo. Unacceptable in e-sport.

Have you ever seen a pro player stuck in a wall after a panic flash in lol LCS ? no.

I think you’ve made some strong arguments, Aboulia.7580 and I agree with almost everything there.

I think that simplicity is an important part of esports…. someone with no knowledge of the game (having never played it) needs to be able to view it, interpret the mechanics and enjoy the game without needing to dive into a tome of knowledge and information.

I also agree with the other comments that making sPvP F2P will go a long way towards making it a viable esport. And I think Anet would like to do this… except that they have to report back to NCsoft which would really like their model to be focused on immediate year-to-year profits and not bank on the possibility of being the next big thing.

That and Anet’s inability to produce viable, frequent, and crowd-sourced balancing has really put them behind the game. Unlike games like LoL and Starcraft, Anet has their attention split across many aspects of this game. PvE. WvW and PvP.

In order for sPvP to be an eSport, they would need to abandon the notion of balance in WvW. Balance in PvE and focus their efforts on producing a strong PvP environment…

Which can’t happen. Their model, as it is now, is focused on retaining as much of the player-base as possible for as long as possible to encourage micro-transactions on the black lion trading post.

tl;dr

Anet is most concerned with making all aspects of this game (PvE, WvW, PvP) as happy as possible to retain the playerbase for as long as possible to encourage micro-transactions on the BLTP.

KrazyFlyinChicken.5936:

I think you’ve made some strong arguments, Aboulia.7580 and I agree with almost everything there.

I think that simplicity is an important part of esports…. someone with no knowledge of the game (having never played it) needs to be able to view it, interpret the mechanics and enjoy the game without needing to dive into a tome of knowledge and information.

I also agree with the other comments that making sPvP F2P will go a long way towards making it a viable esport. And I think Anet would like to do this… except that they have to report back to NCsoft which would really like their model to be focused on immediate year-to-year profits and not bank on the possibility of being the next big thing.

That and Anet’s inability to produce viable, frequent, and crowd-sourced balancing has really put them behind the game. Unlike games like LoL and Starcraft, Anet has their attention split across many aspects of this game. PvE. WvW and PvP.

In order for sPvP to be an eSport, they would need to abandon the notion of balance in WvW. Balance in PvE and focus their efforts on producing a strong PvP environment…

Which can’t happen. Their model, as it is now, is focused on retaining as much of the player-base as possible for as long as possible to encourage micro-transactions on the black lion trading post.

tl;dr

Anet is most concerned with making all aspects of this game (PvE, WvW, PvP) as happy as possible to retain the playerbase for as long as possible to encourage micro-transactions on the BLTP.

Now…..your just pandering to the average casual player.

Give us a proper combat log . A ele can kill me using speed hack with super high self heal and there is no way I can prove he is cheating. I can’t even report him as hacker.

I have seem ppl walking thought wall and immue to all attack .
The best part is he can be cheating or lagging badly( the dmg didn’t load properly) or I lag badly or the server just see star or somehow all of them happen at the same time.
You can’t allow that to happen if you want competitive , balanced , fair fight

I agree with making things simple. Deathmatch, however is the anti-esport. Watch a WoW arena match, and observe how you become bored to death.

Killing other players always needs to be a secondary objective. Look at the most popular esports today, MOBA’s. You can win the game even if you get fewer player kills. That makes for exciting momentum swings, and come from behind wins.

Who would watch American Football if the only way you scored was by tackling other players? Who would watch hockey/soccer/basketball if the only way to score was dribbling past other players? Who would watch baseball if it was just a home run derby all the time?

In every team sport one team can win by AVOIDING direct conflict with the other team. A football team that is weaker and smaller than the other team can win by getting rid of the ball quickly and using speed and strategy to avoid the other team, a slower less technically skilled hockey/soccer/basketball team can win by passing around the other team and scoring, and a baseball team not good at hitting can force walks and still win even without getting a hit.

These aspects of team sports make games exciting. They make seeming underdogs come out on top. This is not to say direct conflict in a sport is bad, in most cases it means that a team will win, but it is not necessary.

We need to stop asking for deathmatch as if it will make this game a popular esport.

The problem doesn’t stem from the game modes, it’s the core mechanics of removing the holy trinity and completely detaching from Guild Wars 1 design philosophy.

In competitive GW1 you had frontlines and backlines which makes for a healthy team composition where everyone has designated roles and those roles can be fulfilled be multiple professions or builds. In GW2 everyone has their own heal and does their own thing pretty much so you could pretty much have 3 hambows each fighting on one point and still do well. Oh and the build diversity also sucks in this game, you can count how many viable builds there are with one hand for each profession, either run those or you’ll rolled. Worst of all is that these builds don’t complement with each another in any way, they don’t have any synergy, you pick them because they’re just “strong in general” not because “they fit in some sort of team comp”, whereas in GW1 even though there were definitely “meta builds” they were built around the TEAM, not the INDIVIDUAL.

Unless they can somehow solve this, which I don’t think is likely with their current progress (they will have the completely overhaul the skill and combat system). Don’t even bother thinking about “esports”.

You will never see gw2 as an export. The game is just too broken. They not only would have to balance the classes (which they obviously can’t manage), but also make the game more viewer friendly, and somehow do all this within the constraints of a game limited by bad coding and substandard server capability.

Good luck with your 2014 esport goals

this game is far too unbalanced to be even considered for esport status.

Good post Aboulia. Although others here have mentioned problems that matter, I believe you got the essence of what needs to change to promote GW2 as an eSport. Also, it seems to me that it is quite possible to make PvP more enjoyable for players of low skill. It is just a matter of structure.

The current pvp system has more problems than just that. It rewards rather passive gameplay aka bunkering a point. Where as ganking and killing players are not encouraged. Thats not to say we should turn this game into call of duty where u should only seek out to kill players, but there needs to be reward for actually eliminating players, setting up ganking position outside of points. Nobody wants to watch a game where u just see people sitting around a point and doing nothing while only a few select people get to run around and even then, in a usually predictable manner.

Another issue is how brain dead some specs are, i am looking at pets and AI specs mostly. While most of the specs aren’t that great, one thing is that when u have anything that requires barely any to no input to the player and actually have that strategy/spec be viable, it totally diminishes any sort of competitiveness the game has. Specs like minionmancers, turret engis, any ranger build, phantasm mesmers etc…nobody will take the game seriously when you have specs like these lying around that are just auto pilot. AI builds needs to actually rely less on AI and more on player input. Think games like dota where you have to control your pets manually.

Those are what i think the main issue that will stop this game from being taken as an esport.

GW2 twitch on mobiles needs sorting out so players aren’t required to scroll through B list console /handheld games to get at it.

GW2 would require to be simpler indeed, because players have barely the time to invest to understand all mechanics of the game, there are too many games out there. So indeed, simplicity needs to be there in following form:
1) The game need to be simple enough so that any newcomer can understand the character he is playing in 2 minutes.

2) The game need to be simple enough so that any newcomer can understand the game mechanic and objectives in 2 minutes.

3) The game need to have a game mode where everyone can fight equally.

4) The game need to have an area where the whole earth can meet and have fun, which means a small part of GW2 should be opened to free 2 play.

5) The game need to have incentive to progress and give the people want to continue even after reaching the level of Veteran player.

6) The game needs to be clear enough so that a viewer can understand what is going on and appreciate the skill level of players. This give the also the opportunity to players to enhance themselves while watching others or themselves to play.

7) The game needs to be play, fun to watch and fun to comment (shoutcasting)!

8) Players must know what is happening in the PvP community like tournaments, featured private servers, who are the best players, what are the most popular builds, etc.

9) The game need to be diverse enough to make an incredible number of viable tactics and strategies to win a game.

Now, GW2 may not have the weapons for reaching simplicity in the scope of eSport because:
- You start in PVE zone to be able to start PvP. I believe they should learn from GW1 with a portal with direct access to PvP zone. The character could still be shared between PvP and PvE/WvW

- Character class mechanics are all different. What is excellent for an MMORPG is not necessarily good for an eSport game. I mean, if you look at Ele where you have 4 attunements, Engineer with kits, Rangers with pets, Weapons swap in general, 2H/dual wield, etc. And I am not even counting on skills inside water. You need quite some training before understanding those concept, I mean for players not used to MMORPG.

- Character roles are not obvious and clearly linked to your build, which consists in Traits, Sigils, Runes, Amulets, Weapon Sets and Utilities. In theory any class can be bunker, burst damage, sustained damage, controller, support/heal, support cleanse, condi damage, etc. Let’s compare it to Moba. Any “hero” in a Moba will have a pre-defined role, and it is during the game that you will give him a specialty. Indeed, for newbies this is also quite difficult to understand if you didn’t play the tutorial. But still, here is the powerfull concept: during character selection, you can agree with your teamates what will be the orientation of overall your team. So if you are new, you can take the time to build slowly your character during the game. Even skills are aquired 1 by 1 for most Mobas. One things that help is the indication on which items works best on the “hero”, which are known as “recommended items”. Anet could provide pre-selected builds that fits to the class most.

- Now this related to skill set, the number of skills is not standardized either. If you had something like 11 skills and nothing more (5 weapons skills, 1 heal, 4 utilities, 1 elite, 2 1 F-skill) it would be more manageable. I mean, just for the sake of PvP, you would take the diversity of each class currently in term of skills, but you would build a standardized deck. Additionally, why not having a game mode where you can buy Runes, Sigils and Amulets in game? GvG v2.0?

- You still need to buy the game in order to taste it. I think the PvP zone should be free, with a limitation in character progression (like limited to level 10 and a restricted loot table period). I believe this will attract much much more players. (You could still expand the same concept to other game mode?).

- With respect to the visibility of GW2, well I don’t know what to say, a lot of special lights/particle effect coupled with Teleport/invisibility/AI spam and fixed camera make it difficult. Maybe a viewer mode could have a default particle/light effect mode with these toned down. I don’t know, Anet are the experts. Still, it is hard to review/learn from a game, so maybe a replay mode could be added too? For instance, At the end of the game, either you could rewind/replay the game, with slow motion and stuff, or you could download the replay, which you could share.

- The in-game announcement system could be enhanced with the stuff I like the most in Moba with the “Double-Kill, Triple-Kill, Quadrrrrra Kill, Pentaaaaaaaaaa Killl (LoL) or Annhilated (InfiniteCrisis)”, but I mean add voices! Since GW2 have its own annoucement with XXX is on the Hunt or XXX is Conquering, it would make it big. And you could have additional game mechanics like: who’s conquering get the in-game title “The Conqueror” and would activate a mission to the opponent team which would have to kill you and give, in return, a significant amount of point if they manage to stop you conquering. Additionally you could have more stuff sell in the Cash-Shop with different announcers voices like "Zaitan, Darth Vader, 50 Cents, Homer Simpson, Grouch, Japanese/French/Spanish/German/Chinese/English, etc).

- Different game mode to experiment. The current Deathmatch is a good start but I would have made the battle field flatter, much wider with stuff to break LoS and maybe some trap to activate as secondary battle field mechanic.

- Concerning the diversity in tactics and strategies, this is obviously inherent to the game mode/map. You could think about this: how come RTS/MOBA players play always the same map per game mode without ever get bored? Maps like Forest of Niflhel and Battle of Kyhlo are really good, but objectives to win a game could be broaden. For instance, why not think about point locking for a period of time? And another mechanic to unlock the point? You could either guard the point unlocker or conquer other point. Etc. Anyway, I think you get the point.

Peace

PS: ArenaNet or anyone else want to discuss about game design/economy in more detail, just PM me.

More announcer voices is a good idea ^

I would buy a Bastion voice pack so fast.

Snoop Dog voice pack 4TW.

Peace

This game will never be e-sports. Not only because the development is incapable to understand the game properly, but don’t invest enough time and resources into PvP and the whole setup with conquest is not beginner friendly.

MrYay.7063:

Now, GW2 may not have the weapons for reaching simplicity in the scope of eSport because:

- Character class mechanics are all different. What is excellent for an MMORPG is not necessarily good for an eSport game. I mean, if you look at Ele where you have 4 attunements, Engineer with kits, Rangers with pets, Weapons swap in general, 2H/dual wield, etc. And I am not even counting on skills inside water. You need quite some training before understanding those concept, I mean for players not used to MMORPG.

- Character roles are not obvious and clearly linked to your build, which consists in Traits, Sigils, Runes, Amulets, Weapon Sets and Utilities. In theory any class can be bunker, burst damage, sustained damage, controller, support/heal, support cleanse, condi damage, etc. Let’s compare it to Moba. Any “hero” in a Moba will have a pre-defined role, and it is during the game that you will give him a specialty. Indeed, for newbies this is also quite difficult to understand if you didn’t play the tutorial. But still, here is the powerfull concept: during character selection, you can agree with your teamates what will be the orientation of overall your team. So if you are new, you can take the time to build slowly your character during the game. Even skills are aquired 1 by 1 for most Mobas. One things that help is the indication on which items works best on the “hero”, which are known as “recommended items”. Anet could provide pre-selected builds that fits to the class most.

- With respect to the visibility of GW2, well I don’t know what to say, a lot of special lights/particle effect coupled with Teleport/invisibility/AI spam and fixed camera make it difficult. Maybe a viewer mode could have a default particle/light effect mode with these toned down. I don’t know, Anet are the experts. Still, it is hard to review/learn from a game, so maybe a replay mode could be added too? For instance, At the end of the game, either you could rewind/replay the game, with slow motion and stuff, or you could download the replay, which you could share.

- Different game mode to experiment. The current Deathmatch is a good start but I would have made the battle field flatter, much wider with stuff to break LoS and maybe some trap to activate as secondary battle field mechanic.

- Concerning the diversity in tactics and strategies, this is obviously inherent to the game mode/map. You could think about this: how come RTS/MOBA players play always the same map per game mode without ever get bored? Maps like Forest of Niflhel and Battle of Kyhlo are really good, but objectives to win a game could be broaden. For instance, why not think about point locking for a period of time? And another mechanic to unlock the point? You could either guard the point unlocker or conquer other point. Etc. Anyway, I think you get the point.

PS: ArenaNet or anyone else want to discuss about game design/economy in more detail, just PM me.

^This. Especially defining class roles so that the game is much easier to understand for those viewing. Unless you actually have a lot of experience in the game, you couldn’t tell a power necro from a condi necro until you see them fight. Although I don’t agree with character progression during a match, have their roles defined from the beginning of the match will go a long way for viewers to be able to understand what that particular character is doing or is going to do.

New maps with better objectives (not just standing in a circle) are needed. The secondary objectives causes too much confusion as a viewer, e.g. in Legacy, people would wonder why no one goes for the Lords most of the time, but would think that since they exist, they would play a primary role in winning the map. Personally, I think Legacy would make a great mini-moba map where the primary objective should be the Guild Lord and structural objectives placed throughout the map can be used to weaken the walls/guards defenses. Similar to what was described.

The creation of TDM was a good start, but since Anet/NCSoft is trying to monetize everything by creating an entry barrier in order to play it, it would never be mainstream since there are a limited number of custom arenas (that a few people paid for) that are TDM. So what does everyone else have to do in order to play TDM? They either find a way to pay for the custom arena or wait for a spot to open in an existing one.

gw2 will never be a popular competitive game as long as the game mode is point capture. Point capture has proven unpopular in every game it’s been tried.

Alright, so I made a thread about an idea I got thanks to Aboulia’s view here. Here’s the link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/We-Need-a-Beginner-Friendly-Ladder-System/first#post4034390

It is not like there are no other problems, but PvP right now just isn’t fun across the varying skill levels. Pretty much every game that became an eSport at some point, allows players a simple start. The game should get more complicated as you get better, and when you are ready for it. In the meantime just play at your level. Between the easy PvE and the hard PvP, all we need is a middle ground and gradual progression. WAY more people would actually get into PvP like this.

In original gw, I could watch recent top gvg or ha fights, and I actually did that from time to time. It was entertaining to watch gvg back then.
I watched some of the tournament of legends, but I was bored to death. Because of that I didn’t even stick around for the finals. Not having linebacking (because you don’t have back/front line), specified splits (because all you do is split up your team in gw2), timed kills (just after respawn timer) etc., makes it all quite dull to watch. After a game or 2-3 you’ve seen it and have enough.

If you have to secure viewers with precursor and gem giveaways on Twitch/Twitter, there is something wrong with your pvp matches, especially if you ever aimed to be an “eSport”.

But I’m just an unranked casual, what do I know.

GW2 wont be an e-sport, it is lacking some fundamentals and some can never be fixed.

Simplicity is a good point, but simplicity towards the viewer. I play GW2, a lot, i play WvW, a lot. I’m used to fighting in a clusterkitten, and im not terrible at it.
Yet i cannot follow a match in pvp as a spectator, its to fast, happening at to many points, the casters cant even keep track of it.

It should be viewable by people who never even played your game. Simply not happening with Gw2. The combat flow would need to be dramatically slowed down in order to even see whats going on.
Not to mention its visually not very clear either, one of the biggest offenders are Asura. Tiny midgets that have fairly obscure animations in a game that already doesnt have big tells to begin with. (for a viewer)

Its also stale, this is something that can be fixed. But weve seen practically the same meta for nearly a year now. Guardians and Warriors reign supreme, Hambow in almost every team. Mesmers and Engineers are a rarity.
Watching the games i very quickly got this feel of “didnt i just finish watching this match?”. Why would i watch all these games that are very similar?

Take SC2, despite just 3 races there are so many build orders and strategies. And even LoL you see champion variation. And fairly often both these games tweak their game to stirr up the meta. Because its more fun to see new things and to see teams adept.
This has nothing to do with balance by the way, but by stirring the pot and getting new games and new comps.

Just two examples, fairly big ones. But i want to avoid a wall-o-text.