Guild Wars 2

Without minstrel amulet bunker guard cannot contend with the damage output on point, we need more vitality. I have been testing it, and it is absolutely worthless, rendering all guardians to running Dragon Hunter, which has also been nerfed considerably.

So, ArenaNet, since you’re in the mood to change and balance things, please add vitality to either guardian, maybe in the form of moving it to ranger health tier? Or, change cleric to have some amount of vitality, possibly at a cost to the toughness.

If everything stays as is the only viable guardian option is dragon hunter and we need more diversity.

Yes equalise base health!

With all the hoopla about DH, people stopped complaining about burn guard, so that’s another alternative you could try.

I haven’t used my shout bunk guard since the expac though. Is it really that bad?

Yeah dedicated support builds are falling out of favor so were progressing towards another cele everything with 2 marauder meta like most of the past year and a half. Minstrels was the only decent new amulet they added, leaving us with horrible new star combos that won’t ever get used.

Id prefer a meta where tanky supporters support glass builds that deal the damage but can’t take it, but as always, it’s just more efficient to run 3 cele bruisers and 2 marauders on each team since the cele builds all AoE heal eachother while having relatively good damage. At least cele Druid has low damage on staff to compensate being forced to run cele, since it’ll instadie without vitality.

This guy is influential. The only person who didn’t like Minstrel. If anet listens to him, maybe we can bribe him to post topics that serve our best selfish interests.

cakeonroof.7385:

This guy is influential. The only person who didn’t like Minstrel. If anet listens to him, maybe we can bribe him to post topics that serve our best selfish interests.

Yes I have to wonder if they even read the thread or just looked at the post count because almost all the posts were about Druids.

cakeonroof.7385:

This guy is influential. The only person who didn’t like Minstrel. If anet listens to him, maybe we can bribe him to post topics that serve our best selfish interests.

I’m just hoping Anet can either suck up their pride and put minstrels back in or change guard health tier.

Yet some guy was telling me clerics is better than minstrel.. LOL

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

ReaperJr.5967:

Yet some guy was telling me clerics is better than minstrel.. LOL

It is for like half the possible bunker builds. Best either way on Guardian and Necromancer. Ranger, Mesmer and Revenant are best with it if the boon duration worked. Tempest is better off with Celestial, Engineer, Warrior and Thief are best with Cleric’s. Though my bunker Thief was better with this until DH does reasonable damage.

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

glaph i’ve read you say this everywhere and you’re so wrong it’s unreal. the 5.5k health lets them sustain the burst that other wise would have 1 shot them. THEN the sustain kicks in. sure it would still be very tanky on a clerics, no one is arguing that

Mooncow.6847:

glaph i’ve read you say this everywhere and you’re so wrong it’s unreal. the 5.5k health lets them sustain the burst that other wise would have 1 shot them. THEN the sustain kicks in. sure it would still be very tanky on a clerics, no one is arguing that

Yes the sole benefit of vitality on bunker builds is burst protection, but if they are CCd and being hit by burst from multiple people they should be dead either way. Maybe too many bruisers is a bad idea?

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

I’ve seen your posts in other threads and while I see where you’re coming from, it seems like you severely underestimate how vitality affects high sustain professions.

Vitality drastically increases one’s ability to sustain in outnumbered fights (1v2+) where pressure sharply increases. You’re correct in saying that Clerics is ‘just as good’, for a 1v1 in which there is not enough pressure to quickly overcome your defenses.

Vitality makes you extremely harder to neutralize by outnumbering. How many times have you died as a sustain class because you just couldn’t survive a few more seconds until your next life saving dodge or heal? Every death.

Clerics Druid for example will still be great. It will just be dealt with easily when outnumbered.

Hope that explains.

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

I want guardians to have more health so they can withstand the on point pressure and maybe be able to actually get a rez occasionally rather than being absolutely worthless.

Whether this comes as return of minstrels or guard health buff, it needs to be done or you will only ever see dragon hunters everywhere.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

I’ve seen your posts in other threads and while I see where you’re coming from, it seems like you severely underestimate how vitality affects high sustain professions.

Vitality drastically increases one’s ability to sustain in outnumbered fights (1v2+) where pressure sharply increases. You’re correct in saying that Clerics is ‘just as good’, for a 1v1 in which there is not enough pressure to quickly overcome your defenses.

Vitality makes you extremely harder to neutralize by outnumbering. How many times have you died as a sustain class because you just couldn’t survive a few more seconds until your next life saving dodge or heal? Every death.

Clerics Druid for example will still be great. It will just be dealt with easily when outnumbered.

Hope that explains.

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

People are forgetting the powerful effects the boon duration healing amulet had on NPCs in Stronghold and Foefire Lord. It was ridiculous beyond belief.

There’s a bunker who can sustain himself and offer utility supportive abilities to allies, then there’s Minstrel amulet… it definitely had a more unhealthy effect in PvP’s gamemodes.

Saiyan.1704:

People are forgetting the powerful effects the boon duration healing amulet had on NPCs in Stronghold and Foefire Lord. It was ridiculous beyond belief.

There’s a bunker who can sustain himself and offer utility supportive abilities to allies, then there’s Minstrel amulet… it definitely had a more unhealthy effect in PvP’s gamemodes.

Boon duration didn’t even work and Cleric’s has more healing power for NPCs.

glaphen.5230:

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

You say vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest, this is true, but only in a picky and disingenuous way. When I say ‘increases sustain’ I mean increases their up-time to stay alive on point under high pressure. This is because your personal survivability increases by decreasing the threat of getting caught out by immobilize, condition overload, multiple attackers.

If you survive that immobilize combo and get to your next heal rotation, you’ve added an insane amount of up-time on that point, against enemies exhausted of their cooldowns. Essentially the holes in your defensive cooldown rotation where you’re vulnerable to being downed get erased. Plug the holes, survive indefinitely against things which you never could survive with a much lower health pool.

Other builds are forced to give up the point and kite in order to cope with this extra pressure, to allow their actual sustain to work properly.

I encourage you to play Clerics Bunker Guardian (No vitality stat) without Force of Will, and then enjoy then toggle Force of Will on, and tell me how your life changes with 3,000 more health to buffer all those defensive cooldowns.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

You say vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest, this is true, but only in a picky and disingenuous way. When I say ‘increases sustain’ I mean increases their up-time to stay alive on point under high pressure. This is because your personal survivability increases by decreasing the threat of getting caught out by immobilize, condition overload, multiple attackers.

If you survive that immobilize combo and get to your next heal rotation, you’ve added an insane amount of up-time on that point, against enemies exhausted of their cooldowns. Essentially the holes in your defensive cooldown rotation where you’re vulnerable to being downed get erased. Plug the holes, survive indefinitely against things which you never could survive with a much lower health pool.

Other builds are forced to give up the point and kite in order to cope with this extra pressure, to allow their actual sustain to work properly.

I encourage you to play Clerics Bunker Guardian (No vitality stat) without Force of Will, and then enjoy then toggle Force of Will on, and tell me how your life changes with 3,000 more health to buffer all those defensive cooldowns.

I already said Guardians benefit from it even without the boon duration, Druids and the rest of the classes have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst besides DH bullkitten easily. I already play bunker Thief and see no difference with Cleric’s and Minstrel’s, just DH can’t bullkitten me as easily and the rare multiple people failing to finish me while I’m vulnerable which as you said does happen but this is solo queue and it is still rare to not be killed within 3 seconds of stun with 17k health.

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

Oh that’s where you couldn’t be more wrong. Various Minstrels amulet users can and did survive long enough to hold points neutralized while outnumbered until rotations can happen.

How do you think the a game’s time had elapsed 15 minutes to time-out before teams had reached 150 points? Because exactly what you’re saying can’t happen, was happening. Before even the concentration stat went live.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

Oh that’s where you couldn’t be more wrong. Various Minstrels amulet users can and did survive long enough to hold points neutralized while outnumbered until rotations can happen.

How do you think the a game’s time had elapsed 15 minutes to time-out before teams had reached 150 points? Because exactly what you’re saying can’t happen, was happening. Before concentration stat went live.

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

Glaphen just stop. Chaith is right lol. Just stop for a moment and check your bias. Then try and digest what he just said. He’s a top tier competitive player that probably knows more about the scene than you do.

ReaperJr.5967:

Glaphen just stop. Chaith is right lol. Just stop for a moment and check your bias. Then try and digest what he just said. He’s a top tier competitive player that probably knows more about the scene than you do.

I don’t give a kitten, he hasn’t shown me anything I didn’t already know about vitality and bunkers. Meta is currently bruisers, Bunker>Bruiser>Damage>Bunker.

glaphen.5230:

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

No, for the record, Druids can absolutely not 1vX multiple enemies with the same ease with Clerics as they can with Minstrels. This is absolute common sense, similarly how not playing bunker thief is common sense. Sorry not sorry.

If you’re posed with this scenario:

“The Druid survived 3 equally skilled people long enough for teammates to rotate in and not be faced with a losing fight”

And the burning question you have is, ‘Well, were any of those 3 people bruisers?’

It makes me think you maybe have a very wrong idea of what an acceptable 1vX time to kill should be, m8.

I don’t wanna point out the obvious, but Anet has seen enough of the Minstrels Amulet for it to ‘play out.’

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

No, for the record, Druids can absolutely not 1vX multiple enemies with the same ease with Clerics as they can with Minstrels. This is absolute common sense, similarly how not playing bunker thief is common sense. Sorry not sorry.

If you’re posed with this scenario:

“The Druid survived 3 equally skilled people long enough for teammates to rotate in and not be faced with a losing fight”

And the burning question you have is, ‘Well, were any of those 3 people bruisers?’

It makes me think you maybe have a very wrong idea of what an acceptable 1vX time to kill should be, m8.

I don’t wanna point out the obvious, but Anet has seen enough of the Minstrels Amulet for it to ‘play out.’

That’s why they let Celestial play out for this long right? Bruiser is a hybrid build, don’t expect fast kill times on pure defensive builds, pure offensive builds can kill them quite easily when they make a mistake or run out of defenses. Again I do not see how the vitality could possibly extend the kill times much unless the multiple players had low burst potential that just could break less than 5.5k.

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

So basically you are saying that 2 Celestial/Soldier Amulets cannot kill a Minstrels Amulet bunker causing the balance issue in this game? I don’t think so.

In fact classes with hybrid damage and also having huge sustain shouldn’t be able to kill things fast, so adding Minstrel was a good move for balancing the game. Players will have to go heavy Berserker or Conditions to kill them fast, which in result to cause them more squishy, and that is call balance.

Bunkers/Supports supposed to be hard to kill, but deals no damages. Reward/Risk 0% and 0%
Dps supposed to squishy, but deals the most damage and impact the game with good plays. Reward/Risk 100%/100%
Hybrid supposed to be medicore on both sustain and dmg, and shouldn’t be able to kill any bunkers even with two of them. But currently Hybrid is killing everything while being unkillable. Reward/Risk 100%/0%

Simple logic.

I believe hybrid builds with no reward/risk plays is always the problem of Guild Wars 2, so as players attitude on how to balance this game and how they communicate with Devs.

Ofc some classes like druid with Minstrel amulet are unkillable and dumb, but fixing the class is a better way than just remove an amulet that opens up so many build diversity

Anastasis.7258:

Bunkers/Supports supposed to be hard to kill, but deals no damages. Reward/Risk 0% and 0%
Dps supposed to squishy, but deals the most damage and impact the game with good plays. Reward/Risk 100%/100%
Hybrid supposed to be medicore on both sustain and dmg, and shouldn’t be able to kill any bunkers even with two of them. But currently Hybrid is killing everything while being unkillable. Reward/Risk 100%/0%

I respect the fact you had reasons to disagree with ArenaNet’s decision.

You mention 0% Risk, 0% Reward is how Minstrel bunkers were supposed to be? Haha. Did you solo queue on Minstrel Druid this week and just see how many players don’t know better than to outnumber bunkers?

Keeping even 2 people from being in other fights is ‘carrying’ in this game mode. I think ArenaNet was right to remove it. It allowed people to carry a little bit too easily.

I think the pure Support role should be better supported in PvP. That can be done through better ways than increasing personal survivability (1vX) of Supports/Bunkers, which is the definition of Minstrel Amulet.

as soon as I saw a minstrel druid played well in PvP I wanted one in my team. I miss the amulet, I would have preferred to just have druid blinds nerfed than lose an amulet. however, considering how difficult me and my pal found them to kill (we were reaper and scrapper and it was a quest) and Chaith’s input perhaps the removal of minstrel amulet was warranted.

after all, I’m not an arrogant idiot who plays bunker thief.

Chaith.8256:

Anastasis.7258:

Bunkers/Supports supposed to be hard to kill, but deals no damages. Reward/Risk 0% and 0%
Dps supposed to squishy, but deals the most damage and impact the game with good plays. Reward/Risk 100%/100%
Hybrid supposed to be medicore on both sustain and dmg, and shouldn’t be able to kill any bunkers even with two of them. But currently Hybrid is killing everything while being unkillable. Reward/Risk 100%/0%

I respect the fact you had reasons to disagree with ArenaNet’s decision.

You mention 0% Risk, 0% Reward is how Minstrel bunkers were supposed to be? Haha. Did you solo queue on Minstrel Druid this week and just see how many players don’t know better than to outnumber bunkers?

Keeping even 2 people from being in other fights is ‘carrying’ in this game mode. I think ArenaNet was right to remove it. It allowed people to carry a little bit too easily.

I think the pure Support role should be better supported in PvP. That can be done through better ways than increasing personal survivability (1vX) of Supports/Bunkers, which is the definition of Minstrel Amulet.

So you mean instead people playing proper Zerker/Condibomb builds to kill bunkers, it is better to have 4 hybrids and one zerker and delete an amulet.

Yeah, right…..

Yeah hybrids doesn’t have the DPS or the condi pressure to kill bunkers you are right.

And I am sure you are speaking about Druids, I am quite sure staff bunker Ele and bunker Guardian didn’t become that effective with this Amu, they were the ones needs the HP not the druid.

Well guys we are almost at a good spot with these nerfs Just a little more nerf and thats it. Hoping for it soon miss my good spot already ;(

Now refund my HoT Anet, since I’ve bought it only because of Minstrel.

With the addition of the Minstrel’s amulet, I found bunker guardians to be in a good place as the extra vitality felt necessary for them to deal with the power creep. I was pleased to see an “old school” spec still being kept relevant and assumed that’s one of the reasons they added the Minstrel’s ammy to begin with.

With that amulet removed, this is unfortunately no longer the case. I concede the amulet was OP when used by rangers, but the classic bunker guard still felt balanced. I have not tried to play bunker guard w/ the cleric’s amulet in this meta, but Firebird’s assessment of its non-viability seems accurate with all the extra damage/on-point cleave.

I’d really like the balance situation of the bunker guardian to be looked at in coming balance patches, specifically their 13k HP pool w/ the cleric’s option.

I’m not going to say who’s right or wrong in this debate, but I was able to play on a bunker build I made for a couple days with Minstrels and came to these results.
The build I made along with the amulet was very strong if played correctly, I could even hold 1v3’s if I played perfectly for over a minute in some cases against power builds and against notable players. However the build I had made showed struggle and was weak to condition spike or sustain, however nobody really ran conditions. So in turn I got alout of kittened off people complaining about it, which is only natural since the amulet was only out and playable for less than a week. Meaning nobody really figured out how to kill it, it was the same old mindless boat of lets run what everyone else is running instead of trying to solve the problem that was in front of them.

But it doesn’t shock me in the slightest that a-net would remove it, not because it’s a wise decision, because it’s the easy and lazy decision. However I’m quite baffled that if they had such quick judgement against an amulet like Minstrels, where were they with the same mentality when Celestial was catering to certain classes and considered by most to be a plague to the spvp community?

Removing an amulet should be a last resort. You didn’t “shave” balance in attempts to fix it, and obviously everyone knows you didn’t test it because your resources are limited. In conclusion I’m not upset that you took it out of the game because it’s a support/tanky amulet. I’m upset because you gave the player base less options when it comes to overall diversity when making a build, so much for shaving. Well this novel is finished, time for breakfast.

Countless

i love how people talk about druid and bunker guard, completely forgetting that there was a third spec using the amulet. yeah, nobody cares about tempest which needed this amulet the most.

The only counter play to ministrel druid was moa, the only counterplay to moa(or double moa) was svanir rune, now svanir rune is gone moa have no counter play, moa is aids, moa isn’t life. pls remove it and give them triple more damage on gravity well idc

I concur. The fact is we still have time but we never get any input as to whether or not the devs will address the issues us support guardians have.

I find it interesting that so many people here think they have more experience and insight into PvP than Chaith, who was on the winning team of the World Tournament Series…

i find it interesting that so many people pray to lord chaith and worship him as a god just because they think he must be right because he played in wts. there are many pvp players that just play as long as he does and have the same amount of insight and might not agree with him.

try playing a full support spec now with 13k hp and you will see how good you do. the amulet was needed but they just removed it and now we can all go back to 3-4 celestial per team. build diversity at its finest.

Dahkeus.8243:

I find it interesting that so many people here think they have more experience and insight into PvP than Chaith, who was on the winning team of the World Tournament Series…

I am also not quite sure that Chaith neutral in the subject, he plays a Hybrid with Soldier Amulet engi, it is his best interest that this amulet disappears otherwise he will have to play much more offensive (high reward/high risk) build to kill them.

Lets look to their team composition

Toker – Thief / Revenant -Glass
Phanta – normally Cele – Ele but played Revenant lately but I will accept him as Hybrid also
Nosc – Cele Necro – Hybrid
Chaith – Soldier Engi – Hybrid
Wakkey – Cele Ele – Hybrid

So their whole composition based on Hybrids and you are telling me his opinions are neutral?

This is an extremely terrible decision. Yes mistrel druid was completely out of place with minstrel ONLY because lingering light provided enough blinds to totally negate power damage. Even if I am wrong and druid is still very OP with minstrel that is a profession specific problem. Bunker guard is an extremely important role to many comps. And without it everyone is forced into running 3-5 cele which is more boring than 1 bunker imo. Bunkers allowed for glass while all cele allows for is more cele. Please. Revert. This. Change.

Yes, it is extremely suspect this placement Chaith due to the Abjured gameplay. (I could be wrong.)

With more powerful bunkers we would have compositions of 1/2 bunkers and 3 full dps. I play Guardian bunker and nowadays we have less survivability without Renewed focus and low health pool (after specs), so we need to take more careful about bursts and have less capability of bunker a point, its more about team fight support.

posthumecaver.6473:

Dahkeus.8243:

I find it interesting that so many people here think they have more experience and insight into PvP than Chaith, who was on the winning team of the World Tournament Series…

I am also not quite sure that Chaith neutral in the subject, he plays a Hybrid with Soldier Amulet engi, it is his best interest that this amulet disappears otherwise he will have to play much more offensive (high reward/high risk) build to kill them.

Lets look to their team composition

Toker – Thief / Revenant -Glass
Phanta – normally Cele – Ele but played Revenant lately but I will accept him as Hybrid also
Nosc – Cele Necro – Hybrid
Chaith – Soldier Engi – Hybrid
Wakkey – Cele Ele – Hybrid

So their whole composition based on Hybrids and you are telling me his opinions are neutral?

Well, considering that this isn’t what they’ve always played, I’d say yes. Chaith may play soldier in tourneys (and cele scrapper since the patch), but he also often plays glassy builds like marauder grenade and Static Discharge when he streams, so I can’t in good faith say that I think he just wants to support a meta that encourages him to only play tanky/hybrid builds.

Bunker guard is dead since the Toughness nerf in 2013.

It agonize until the celestial buff in april 2014.

After that, we were useless, unless we were carried by thief/mesmer combo until AOE pressure destroyed the burst/mobility duo God.

Either, un-nerf toughness at his proper level to be a real counter to power… or nerf celestial to make it less power more defensive oriented…

Another quick fix for bunker guard but not for all bunker type, would be to give shouts 1 condi cleanse baseline, so we can use other Rune than Soldier since 2012.

The last stud on the coffin was removing the attributes from trait line, bunker guard were standing around 16k before June 23 patch.

Really… we should have a PVE/WvW stats distribution system. I don’t care if it’s hard to balance… every player should be able to micro manage their attribute like the base game. I wanna put whatever the stats combo on all my gear, weapons and jewels.

Why dumbing down PVP when the other game mode are already “baseline” dumb down? (put a kitten proper save and load build to make it easier for us, not removing options)

The best comment of this thread is from Anastasis:

Anastasis.7258:

So basically you are saying that 2 Celestial/Soldier Amulets cannot kill a Minstrels Amulet bunker causing the balance issue in this game? I don’t think so.

In fact classes with hybrid damage and also having huge sustain shouldn’t be able to kill things fast, so adding Minstrel was a good move for balancing the game. Players will have to go heavy Berserker or Conditions to kill them fast, which in result to cause them more squishy, and that is call balance.

With a real attribute system like PVE and WvW this would never happen again. Players would be able to balance the meta themselves.

And Championship tourney would be way more interesting, because way less stagnant than the hybrid kill all comp.

ALL PRE HOT BUILDS ARE DEAD AND USELESS, not just bunker guard.
Anet really shot themselves in the foot with these stupidly overpowered elites.
All those years of work to balance PvP, it all went down the drain in one day.
Add to that the fact we’re stuck doing pointless unranked PvP with a bunch of clueless newbs for god knows how long…
Yeah from my perspective this is the worste MMO expansion ever. They shot PvP balance and we ended up having less to do than before HoT.
I’m soooo happy I didn’t buy it.

Wait for leagues you might say… Yeah right, leagues with solo vs premades, I’m so NOT looking forward to that.

Scambug.3502:

ALL PRE HOT BUILDS ARE DEAD AND USELESS, not just bunker guard.
Anet really shot themselves in the foot with these stupidly overpowered elites.
All those years of work to balance PvP, it all went down the drain in one day.
Add to that the fact we’re stuck doing pointless unranked PvP with a bunch of clueless newbs for god knows how long…
Yeah from my perspective this is the worste MMO expansion ever. They shot PvP balance and we ended up having less to do than before HoT.
I’m soooo happy I didn’t buy it.

Wait for leagues you might say… Yeah right, leagues with solo vs premades, I’m so NOT looking forward to that.

Overstatement.

Ya know… I was completely on Chaith’s side until I really started to remember how much I hate 4 sustain classes with 1 zerker thief meta.

The problem this weekend was all these kitten celestial or soldier builds having trouble killing a minstrel ammy. If you want to kill something like that, bring some more spike and stop playing the “you hold out on your tanky build while thief or ele rotates game.”

Unfortunately Apex tried that with 2 zerker revs and got shrekt. Now this could be because they are new to the class but we will never know since Anet is doing this brash change without looking at class balance first.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

You say vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest, this is true, but only in a picky and disingenuous way. When I say ‘increases sustain’ I mean increases their up-time to stay alive on point under high pressure. This is because your personal survivability increases by decreasing the threat of getting caught out by immobilize, condition overload, multiple attackers.

If you survive that immobilize combo and get to your next heal rotation, you’ve added an insane amount of up-time on that point, against enemies exhausted of their cooldowns. Essentially the holes in your defensive cooldown rotation where you’re vulnerable to being downed get erased. Plug the holes, survive indefinitely against things which you never could survive with a much lower health pool.

Other builds are forced to give up the point and kite in order to cope with this extra pressure, to allow their actual sustain to work properly.

I encourage you to play Clerics Bunker Guardian (No vitality stat) without Force of Will, and then enjoy then toggle Force of Will on, and tell me how your life changes with 3,000 more health to buffer all those defensive cooldowns.

All I see is you really complaining about bunker classes being bunker/support when that is what they are supposed to do. Hybrid classes shouldn’t be able to do 75% of what they’ve been doing for the last year and a half, yet you have the audacity to complain about bunkers being bunkery?

Lmao? I can’t believe this. They give support classes to help sustain themselves in this power creep and you QQ. Have you seen scrapper sustain? I have no words for this.