Bunker Ruins the Game

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Posted by: Storms Fury.9307

Storms Fury.9307

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

i dont mind the defense but they should hit like wet noodles… currently there are some builds that are bunkerish and still hit like trucks

Attention Moderators I am not
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Posted by: Storms Fury.9307

Storms Fury.9307

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

i dont mind the defense but they should hit like wet noodles… currently there are some builds that are bunkerish and still hit like trucks

Exactly.

When you have strong offense and strong defense there is no balance in that.

It needs to be glass cannon, wet noodle tank, or something moderate in between, not all of the above.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

It’s not a bunker build problem. Bunker builds have been around for years and were fine. They could survive for a while, but you had to manage cooldowns well, and they typically hit like a wet noodle.

The problem is HoT specs having too much easy to access defense abilities which makes them hard to while playing a relatively offensive build.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: Faux Play.6104

Faux Play.6104

A balanced build will always be better than a full offense or a full defense build. I think eliminating the strong passives would help tone down the survivability of some classes.

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Posted by: mrauls.6519

mrauls.6519

That doesn’t make sense. Why should a jack of all trades be more masterful than someone specialized to do one thing (offense or defense)?

Mes (Guardian)
I make PvP & WvW videos

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Posted by: megilandil.7506

megilandil.7506

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

problem is not bunker, problem is that bunkers are good at suport role .

bunkers cant resist until +1 and in that moment you get a bunker and a dps bunker (the dps that +1 bunkerized by bunkers support) defending that point

bunkers had to only be bunkers, suports only suports and dps only dps, or a mix not good in any role

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Posted by: Supreme.3164

Supreme.3164

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Some specs and classes are pushed out of the game because some burst specs vastly outperform them, they have absurd amount of damage, sustain through blocks+evades for days.

Being able to completely negate dmg is called sustain also, the devs know this luckily but most players here happily think otherwise.

The idea of “glass cannon” is very skewed …something that can engage/disengage at will, chain stealth/block/evades..is not glass cannon.

Wearing a certain amulet doesn’t make you a glass cannon, the base sustain some professions enjoy atm is insane, that’s why they can afford to use a zerker amulet

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Some specs and classes are pushed out of the game because some burst specs vastly outperform them, they have absurd amount of damage, sustain through blocks+evades for days.

Being able to completely negate dmg is called sustain also, the devs know this luckily but most players here happily think otherwise.

The idea of “glass cannon” is very skewed …something that can engage/disengage at will, chain stealth/block/evades..is not glass cannon.

Wearing a certain amulet doesn’t make you a glass cannon, the base sustain some professions enjoy atm is insane, that’s why they can afford to use a zerker amulet

Ironically |that skewed thing is what sinked gw2, and what Anet keeps forcing, and why alot of players joke about the game.

That skewed idea makes players being a bit carried w/o knowing it, works like a placebo, and makes players keep playing, GW2 is designed to carry players on metas/gimmicks since they are far easy to play than gw1 gimmicks since GW1 required better timmings and more team workforce, ATM gw2 it isnt a true players skill game, just need l2p what is to much in that skewed ANET mentality, note gw2 pvp is pve only designed classes with some sorta “controled stats” via trinkets. they might change a bit the skills but how class was designed initially is also carried to pvp, ANET should had done pvp classes to work on pve, to avoid future problems and game would be much better than this joke.
It is a way/strategy to keep players playing, they dont care about the rest.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Some specs and classes are pushed out of the game because some burst specs vastly outperform them, they have absurd amount of damage, sustain through blocks+evades for days.

Being able to completely negate dmg is called sustain also, the devs know this luckily but most players here happily think otherwise.

The idea of “glass cannon” is very skewed …something that can engage/disengage at will, chain stealth/block/evades..is not glass cannon.

Wearing a certain amulet doesn’t make you a glass cannon, the base sustain some professions enjoy atm is insane, that’s why they can afford to use a zerker amulet

Ironically |that skewed thing is what sinked gw2, and what Anet keeps forcing, and why alot of players joke about the game.

That skewed idea makes players being a bit carried w/o knowing it, works like a placebo, and makes players keep playing, GW2 is designed to carry players on metas/gimmicks since they are far easy to play than gw1 gimmicks since GW1 required better timmings and more team workforce, ATM gw2 it isnt a true players skill game, just need l2p what is to much in that skewed ANET mentality, note gw2 pvp is pve only designed classes with some sorta “controled stats” via trinkets. they might change a bit the skills but how class was designed initially is also carried to pvp, ANET should had done pvp classes to work on pve, to avoid future problems and game would be much better than this joke.
It is a way/strategy to keep players playing, they dont care about the rest.

Just because gw1 combat was slower doesn’t mEan it took more skill. I would argue the opposite…. sure in low level pvp you can certainly spam for the win but try that in higher levels and you get crushed… GW2 being faster doesn’t mean there isn’t timing and skill… to me it seems more skill based because you have to think faster and react faster.

Attention Moderators I am not
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Posted by: firelink.6329

firelink.6329

I normally don’t agree, but 4 out of my 5 matches tonight, over half of the opposing team were bunkers. How do you fight against that, especially in a disorganized group?

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

Against any organize bunker group? It’s tough need to prioritize targets and focus as a group and interupt as many heals as you can, mobility helps too and if you see two of the bunkers on one point and you don’t have it capped just leave

Attention Moderators I am not
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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Some specs and classes are pushed out of the game because some burst specs vastly outperform them, they have absurd amount of damage, sustain through blocks+evades for days.

Being able to completely negate dmg is called sustain also, the devs know this luckily but most players here happily think otherwise.

The idea of “glass cannon” is very skewed …something that can engage/disengage at will, chain stealth/block/evades..is not glass cannon.

Wearing a certain amulet doesn’t make you a glass cannon, the base sustain some professions enjoy atm is insane, that’s why they can afford to use a zerker amulet

Ironically |that skewed thing is what sinked gw2, and what Anet keeps forcing, and why alot of players joke about the game.

That skewed idea makes players being a bit carried w/o knowing it, works like a placebo, and makes players keep playing, GW2 is designed to carry players on metas/gimmicks since they are far easy to play than gw1 gimmicks since GW1 required better timmings and more team workforce, ATM gw2 it isnt a true players skill game, just need l2p what is to much in that skewed ANET mentality, note gw2 pvp is pve only designed classes with some sorta “controled stats” via trinkets. they might change a bit the skills but how class was designed initially is also carried to pvp, ANET should had done pvp classes to work on pve, to avoid future problems and game would be much better than this joke.
It is a way/strategy to keep players playing, they dont care about the rest.

Just because gw1 combat was slower doesn’t mEan it took more skill. I would argue the opposite…. sure in low level pvp you can certainly spam for the win but try that in higher levels and you get crushed… GW2 being faster doesn’t mean there isn’t timing and skill… to me it seems more skill based because you have to think faster and react faster.

Arguably the “thinking faster” and “acting faster” is more a result of avoiding so many easily (and quickly) spammed mega death skills. That’s why the builds/classes we see are those that can facilitate rotating through a series of protective/defensive/regenerative skills while dishing out the pain (if so possible), and also why passive defensive procs are desired (to shore up the holes).

If that means its more skillful, so be it. At best there’s a great deal of prediction going on, with counter offensives. Just gotta hit them harder/faster than they hit you.

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

In lower levels we see strictly rotations, higher we do not. They time their skills.

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Posted by: Kolly.9872

Kolly.9872

A balanced build will always be better than a full offense or a full defense build. I think eliminating the strong passives would help tone down the survivability of some classes.

In any other game jack of all trades can do anything, but they do it worst than any damage or defence focused build. Usually splitting stats is never the best idea. Only on gw2, things seem to work in a different way.

Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I normally don’t agree, but 4 out of my 5 matches tonight, over half of the opposing team were bunkers. How do you fight against that, especially in a disorganized group?

Depends what bunkers. Tempests? They have poor mobility, so you can either make them go to one place, then cap the other two, or make them spread out over all points, and then kill of those that are alone.
Most important point to remember is that while bunker can defend a point, it cannot capture it against any opponent.
Now, if your opponent was not a bunker, but something with just way too big sustain (looking at you, scrapper), you might have trouble.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Faux Play.6104

Faux Play.6104

Since there is no dedicated heal/prot class you will just get ista-killed in pvp once people realize you are a squishy. The only class that can run a pure damage build are ones that have very high amounts of protection in their base class and utility skills. In PVE you can max out damage because avoiding damage is just knowing where there red circles will spawn and not standing in them.

A balanced build will always be better than a full offense or a full defense build. I think eliminating the strong passives would help tone down the survivability of some classes.

In any other game jack of all trades can do anything, but they do it worst than any damage or defence focused build. Usually splitting stats is never the best idea. Only on gw2, things seem to work in a different way.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

In lower levels we see strictly rotations, higher we do not. They time their skills.

Ah, yes, that is true but also it happens in every mmo to an extent that is not gw2 exclusive, by having 1 class that can fit the roles of 2 or 3 players (that is what was needed to bust a player in gw1), it required more team effort for defense and offense, wich leads to more comunication, on gw2 there are less combat variables, game is faster pace but still doesnt meant it requires more skill since as many think, you dont have that clever skil linterrupting since theres alot of spammy aoe and cleaves, skills were require management due energy and mesmers pressure burnign your energy, even weapons swap was used to hide energy to use in emergency, condis on gw1 need more clever management to burst targets and more cordenation, a thing that 1 class in gw2 can do alone, there was more variety and more tactics avaliable.

On gw2 all build resume to just on thing, burst or be bursted, a game based on power creep builds, makes the game much more easy since every one will look ok at least.
Oh and gw2 balance….. not helping, it is another charade.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

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Posted by: Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

In any other game jack of all trades can do anything, but they do it worst than any damage or defence focused build. Usually splitting stats is never the best idea. Only on gw2, things seem to work in a different way.

GW2 doesn’t have “jack of all trades”. They let power creep get out of control and you have “master of all trades”.

Kirrena Rosenkreutz

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Posted by: TheBlackLeech.9360

TheBlackLeech.9360

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

i dont mind the defense but they should hit like wet noodles… currently there are some builds that are bunkerish and still hit like trucks

Exactly.

When you have strong offense and strong defense there is no balance in that.

It needs to be glass cannon, wet noodle tank, or something moderate in between, not all of the above.

Its amazing that this post comes up after 1-2 replies in a thread…. but the balance team at anet still can’t figure that out.

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

It also gets worse as full condition builds suffer unless they go slightly tank condition. Certain classes get completely shut down because of this. For example. Mesmer has way too much condition clear. They have the option to remove conditions on torch skills, healing skills,. mantras, mindwrack condition removal, or fields, arcane thievery, signets, or simply the dis enchanter. The idefender even takes half of their condition damage. This makes them immune to conditions literally. Necromancer has very limited condition removal by comparison as they must hit their opponent for the bulk of their removal. And unlike mesmer they cannot just distortion to avoid condition application. As a result. Necromancer is strong at aoe condition aplication but is basically a walking punching bag that couldn’t dent a mesmer speced against it even if it tried. The same applies to other less bunker based condition builds. They simply cannot kill the few classes that have pretty much have condition immunity.

There are a few classes like ranger and mesmer who have a ridiculous share of defenses. One would think with their damage reduction traits they should at least die to conditions. But no these classes are superior in both defense damage reduction and condition removal. And don’t even get me started on scrapper or tempest. The other classes simply cannot compare with this level of bunking as there is so much defense available for these class that thieves are being forced into evade spamming builds and other classes are forced to play some bunker variant of their favorite builds.

While condition damage is often requested to be nerfed by me I also would request a nerf to condition removal as it is so ridiculous right now that condition builds 100% cannot kill a condition removal build even eventually. There is no skill involved in this especially when the higher condition output comes from builds that are immune to conditions (druid and chronomancer).

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Posted by: Euthymias.7984

Euthymias.7984

>Ranger
>Ridiculous Condi Cleanse

All they have is Celestial Avatar (gated by 10 seconds CD and a bar that has to be charged regularly – and if they’re condi-bombed in CA without SotW, then thats that) and a Condi-Transfer to their pet, which already melts easily in the face of constant cleaves and AoEs.

Their shouts are crap for condi-cleanse with Soldier Runes, and with the most recent nerf, so are their Glyphs. Wilderness Knowledge barely helps with their moderate CDs on their skills, and Empathetic Bond only works every 10 seconds as a condi transfer to the detriment of their pet.

Druid is far from immune to conditions. I’d say they’re just barely resilient. Real resilience is something like your current power/condi Warrior, with their access to Resistance, quick Condi clear on burst skills and weapon swap, and constant sustained healing while landing those hits within 5~7 seconds on a 10 second CD.

(edited by Euthymias.7984)

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

I like playing Bunker. I tend to gravitate towards bunker, because I don’t like dying in a half second of burst.

I think it’s fine to be opposed to a class that can survive indefinitely, but I also think that the alternatives end up being way too glassy and require absolute precision at even low supposed skill levels.

I think that if they want to mess with the current bunker metas, it would need to come with a comprehensive overhaul of the game’s damage vs. defense mechanics, so that “full HP to zero in three seconds” encounters are no longer possible. A fight should last at bare minimum ten seconds, allowing opportunities to extend that time longer, but after about thirty seconds the options should start to run out and even the most bunker builds should have to really struggle to stay ahead of incoming damage.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Tengu Talons.7921

Tengu Talons.7921

1 or 2 bunkers isnt bad, its when the whole team has tanky comp that can pressure and have decent moblity (tempset,druid,warrior,scrapper) than the counter (necro). It doesnt work well in a conquest format when most players are solo queued and rotations are so important.

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Posted by: TainoFuerte.8136

TainoFuerte.8136

Conquest has always been terrible for precisely this reason, it does nothing but encourage brainless builds that are nearly immortal – the fact that the game allows builds this bad to exist in the first place is telling in and of itself, though. HoT just made everything even worse thanks to the introduction of both tons of sustain and the damage to make use of it.

Amulet removal has done nothing because the problem aren’t the amulets.

But Anet is Anet. How many years will it take for them to figure it out?

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Posted by: megilandil.7506

megilandil.7506

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Yeah, the only reason bunkers exist is because of high burst builds, not the other way around, so the solution to bunkers is to fix high burst builds. If you could make a medium to low tanky build that was still able to survive a concentrated alpha-strike scenario then bunkers would be a huge waste of resources and would not be considered worth having around. The reason bunkers exist is so they can survive a bursty alpha strike, recover and get on their front feet again, and then shove back.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Silv.9207

Silv.9207

That sPvP is based on Hold Points, then you have more to Survive than to Kill.
That make bunker or hybryds really good why them can hold points and take a long time to die.

But if you look there’s 2 other maps in that game where a lot of builds change why they’re lesser efficent: Stronghold and the Countryard (I think it’s that the name of that map)

That’s simply why in that 2 situations you have to Kill more than to Survive.
In stronghold you need to move fast and do some aoe, with a good offensive power to burst down the enemy guards and boss.
In the real pvp map, the countryard, you have to kill. If you’re all bunkers you can’t kill fast enough, but if you have a lot of AoE you can win easy. In all matches I played in the Countryard, the team with more AoE dps was the winner.

Basicly that sPvP is Based on Bunker and Hybrid builds why is the better way to hold points.
No need to kill fast if you’re not able to hold the point when another enemy come to you (unless you can seriously burst every enemy you face in 1vs1) and a pure dps build is bad to hold points in a team fight situation why 5 seconds of Focus and is down.
There’s a reason why every class can’t use all his offensive skills but have to use all his defensive skills before chose what to use to attack. (only few classes/builds can go in pure dps, but they’re not the best builds, or are good for 1vs1 and steal points, like the thief).

If you want to see no more bunkers or hybryds in PvP change game, that one will never be what you want to play.

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

M I L K B O I S

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Posted by: TheDevice.2751

TheDevice.2751

There’s imbalance all over in if this is the case.

“Bunkers should hit like wet noodles” but its okay that perma-evade thieves can have so much defense and hit like a train. Far more damage than any bunker build.

imo

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Posted by: OGDeadHead.8326

OGDeadHead.8326

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

This. Biggest reason for bunkers are thieves, a class that should never even have left alpha stage in development.

Win10 pro | Xeon 5650 @ 4 GHz | R9 280x toxic | 24 Gig Ram | Process Lasso user

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

They do need to ad IDC on pulmonary impact and nerf the evades on weapons so they have a precast and aftercast dealay of 1/2 a second similar to the delay before casting pistol-whip or casting flanking strike. This would have to be added to staff/Shortbow/ and D/D. Then bunkers can be fixed effectively. Right now the issue is that without bunkers, thieves could just head-shot spam during a group fight and kill someone while also preventing their skill output and are becoming perma evade bunkers in response to the bunker meta.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

This. Biggest reason for bunkers are thieves, a class that should never even have left alpha stage in development.

What if they nerfed theive attacks like back stab a little but have it some sort of armor ignore property so it won’t one shot zerks and gains a little effectiveness against bunkers

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

That is actually a good idea. But thieves don’t need backstab to one shot people. Its really the mug/Bound syncing that is one shotting people with skills like flurry or pulmonary impact. It is un-blockable too thanks to Basilisk Venom. They have been receiving power creep slowly. Mug/Bound is the new mug pre-critical chance nerf with an extra 1k. In other words its presence due to power creep is like the balance teem admitting they made a mistake nerfing mug. It was a mistake.

Also, I don’t agree with any un-blockable un-dodgeable skills Period. As they encourage random attack spamming These ideodic changes came in response to shield mesmer so they couldn’t perma block. Logic would said Why give mesmer blocks on-top of all their defenses in the first place

This game is quickly becoming rock paper scissors. Where everything, Block, stealth, armor, conditions have a specific counter spec. It isn’t there 100% yet but at this rate it is coming and player will again leave as they are guaranteed to lose against a player/team they outplay simply because he as a counter skill set to their build.The driving force of this terrible form of balance are bunker currently.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

(edited by Zelulose.8695)

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Posted by: shagwell.1349

shagwell.1349

They need to make thief more depending on initiative. HS damage isn’t bound to initiative. It has low costs and it does the same damage whatever initiative points you have left.
You don’t sacrifice your defense by using HS, you still can shadowstep away and your initiative is regenerating fast, you still can dodge, you still can roll away, restealth and everything is on a very small cooldown.
The balance between damage, defense and mobility is really bad. There should be a much higher risk of failing such as other glass cannons. If you jump into combat with a full berserker guardian, you pretty much have one chance of killing something and if you make one slight mistake you end up dead. Thief is much more forgiving.

There is a reason why thief is the #1 roaming class in wvw since beta. It’s mobility, damage, the low risk gameplay and the option to reset fights at will.
It’s not that bad in spvp, but thieves are the reasons we had bunker builds in this game. There were other high burst classes, but they all got hit by the nerf hammer one day, only thieves are allowed to exist in that niche

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(edited by shagwell.1349)

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Posted by: Kolly.9872

Kolly.9872

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

This. Biggest reason for bunkers are thieves, a class that should never even have left alpha stage in development.

What if they nerfed theive attacks like back stab a little but have it some sort of armor ignore property so it won’t one shot zerks and gains a little effectiveness against bunkers

I realy don’t understand why every f… problem have to be related to thieves. Even in the current meta where a lot of pro thieves have quit the game or have switched to other better performing classes., in every “list your OP class” topic, thieves are listed at the bottom by the majority, many pro teams don’t even use thieves anymore in their roster, a lot of classes can easily deal as much, if not more, dmg than thieves nowadays, but thief is still the answer to any problem this game is affected with.

Thief might not be as strong as last year
but they’re a lot stronger
than they will be next year!

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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

They need to make thief more depending on initiative. HS damage isn’t bound to initiative. It has low costs and it does the same damage whatever initiative points you have left.
You don’t sacrifice your defense by using HS, you still can shadowstep away and your initiative is regenerating fast, you still can dodge, you still can roll away, restealth and everything is on a very small cooldown.
The balance between damage, defense and mobility is really bad. There should be a much higher risk of failing such as other glass cannons. If you jump into combat with a full berserker guardian, you pretty much have one chance of killing something and if you make one slight mistake you end up dead. Thief is much more forgiving.

There is a reason why thief is the #1 roaming class in wvw since beta. It’s mobility, damage, the low risk gameplay and the option to reset fights at will.
It’s not that bad in spvp, but thieves are the reasons we had bunker builds in this game. There were other high burst classes, but they all got hit by the nerf hammer one day, only thieves are allowed to exist in that niche

The resets are a problem. I remember asking anet to nerf perma stealth. Instead they opted for rock paper scissors balance and introduced the ability to reveal stealth ed opponents. This ridiculous change made many thieves nonviable for a while before they swapped to a more evade/burst style of play because a class counter was introduced. A thief that is running a stealth based build is guaranteed to lose to the classes with reveal. The problem was always their resets not stealth. Instead Bound gave them an easier time using smoke field so they can perma stealth still just be hard countered by classes that bring reveal. This is one step towards skilless game-play.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: NeXeD.3042

NeXeD.3042

have you stopped just a moment to think why metas gravitate to bunkers when it is posible and people uses the many defensive automatic procs that are posible… just for a simply reason: glass canons are not allowed to exist because of thiefs, a class whith a broken by design sinergic mechanic (stealth+high movility/ports) what can chase down glass canons in a few seconds apearing off nowhere and banishing in air after down you apearing only a few seconds after to take the stomp.

This. Biggest reason for bunkers are thieves, a class that should never even have left alpha stage in development.

What if they nerfed theive attacks like back stab a little but have it some sort of armor ignore property so it won’t one shot zerks and gains a little effectiveness against bunkers

I realy don’t understand why every f… problem have to be related to thieves. Even in the current meta where a lot of pro thieves have quit the game or have switched to other better performing classes., in every “list your OP class” topic, thieves are listed at the bottom by the majority, many pro teams don’t even use thieves anymore in their roster, a lot of classes can easily deal as much, if not more, dmg than thieves nowadays, but thief is still the answer to any problem this game is affected with.

Not saying theif is op in current meta, but it does make it so no other class can play zerk, and we wouldn’t see as many bunkers. Also my suggestion really isn’t a huge nerf and it would allow theives to win 1v1s against bunkers while slightly reducing their ability to destroy non bunkers.

Attention Moderators I am not
S P E E D Starr #0 Necro NA or
I Am NeXeD awful d/D ele NA

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Posted by: R O C.6574

R O C.6574

Buff vulnerability

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Posted by: Prince Vingador.8067

Prince Vingador.8067

I think before cele ele was a problem because of good defense and strong ofense, but now i think there is no pure bunker, there is hard counters yes, but i think only scrapper needs a bit of a shave in the bunker part, and even so in a 2v1 situation i dont think there is any class atm that can hold like they could before.bring some dps or +1 some one and that "bunker " will die fast or at least give the capp fast.

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

What if they nerfed theive attacks like back stab a little but have it some sort of armor ignore property so it won’t one shot zerks and gains a little effectiveness against bunkers

Buff vulnerability

Maybe smth like reducing their base dmg but giving them a trait which makes them ignore armor against enemies afflicetd with vuln or smth like this? Just a random idea tho

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Posted by: Jourdelune.7456

Jourdelune.7456

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Lol.

Bunker build are fine (high defense, low damage).

It’s Bruiser build that are not (and were always OPed) that have bunker defenses and dps damage (or so).

Main problem here, is the Paladin amulet and most new block/evade from HoT specs.

Dal Aï Lhama (Tempest), Dal Lahu Akbar (DH), Lord Dhal of Dharma (Scrapper) 12k+ spvp games.
Former Team Captain of ggwp (ESL weekly), GLHF (AG), MIST[CORE] spvp alliance guild.
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Posted by: Zelulose.8695

Zelulose.8695

Some classes and some builds are forced out of higher end PvP because bunker outclasses them.

These leads to build inequality and forces you to play bunker meta instead of having more choices.

Bunker needs to be tapered down a bit so that other builds are more viable.

Some classes/builds have way too much defense.

Lol.

Bunker build are fine (high defense, low damage).

It’s Bruiser build that are not (and were always OPed) that have bunker defenses and dps damage (or so).

Main problem here, is the Paladin amulet and most new block/evade from HoT specs.

They honestly need to fix classes rather than fix the amulets at this rate we wont have any amulets left with toughness or vitality or healing power. They have added some (although many are just effective condition amulets.) But they have already removed Settlers amulet and Soldiers amulet. If they keep removing amulets Build diversity will become more limited.

Lucky Leaf, Ángël, Clergyman, Side Kick -Lets make Gw2 a better game

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Posted by: foogison.5067

foogison.5067

I think everyone is forgetting this game is conquest.. Aka point control – of course bunkers will be OP and always will be OP, because point control.

The game style aids directly to bunker builds.

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Posted by: BeepBoopBop.5403

BeepBoopBop.5403

Haha if thieves are the cause of bunker builds why were there still bunker builds in all seasons, even s1 and s2 when thief players were RIP? The historic salt is incredible.

Koolgai Smurf – Thief | Dazin U – Mesmer | Whats Healing Power – Ranger|
I Bought Hot – Revenant | [QQ]

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

Haha if thieves are the cause of bunker builds why were there still bunker builds in all seasons, even s1 and s2 when thief players were RIP? The historic salt is incredible.

Maybe thieves were rip cause everyone was playing bunker?

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Posted by: BeepBoopBop.5403

BeepBoopBop.5403

Haha if thieves are the cause of bunker builds why were there still bunker builds in all seasons, even s1 and s2 when thief players were RIP? The historic salt is incredible.

Maybe thieves were rip cause everyone was playing bunker?

Yeah totally not because of elite spec power creep, lol. If thieves were rip because everyone was playing bunker, but everyone was playing bunker because of thieves, what was the point of playing bunker? Maybe because it is more efficient in a point holding game mode?

Koolgai Smurf – Thief | Dazin U – Mesmer | Whats Healing Power – Ranger|
I Bought Hot – Revenant | [QQ]

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

Haha if thieves are the cause of bunker builds why were there still bunker builds in all seasons, even s1 and s2 when thief players were RIP? The historic salt is incredible.

Maybe thieves were rip cause everyone was playing bunker?

Yeah totally not because of elite spec power creep, lol. If thieves were rip because everyone was playing bunker, but everyone was playing bunker because of thieves, what was the point of playing bunker? Maybe because it is more efficient in a point holding game mode?

Ofc you need bunkers in a point holding gamemode. I’ve never said that without thieves bunkers wouldnt exist. I’ve said that because thieves and what thief comps can lead to, metas tend to have more bunk/bruisers. Btw s1 is not a good referent because back then everything turned around quickness rezz.

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