Guild Wars 2

Hey guys…. I just wanted to point out a few things about all this burn guardian qq happening in pvp atm.

First things first…. burn guardians have been a thing for almost a year now, and they are actually much less powerful after the June 23rd patch.

Yes, there is the whole burning condition stacking thing that many of you are focusing on in your reasoning as to why it needs to be nerfed…. but I assure you, the build has always been scary… and it is actually far less scary after the patch where you guys are claiming it became broken.

Lets, for the sake of argument…. hop into our time machine…. and go back eight months ago.

…to this thread.

The name of the thread is “It’s Totally Viable (It really isn’t)”

…and someone brings up a “full condition damage guardian” and wants to add it to the list of builds that are a joke.

…and what you will see is several players who actually have been running condi guardians in pvp coming out of the woodwork to set the misinformed player straight about how condition damage guardians are so much better than your regular medi guard.

Most players, who had yet to see the burn guard in action made statements like “the condition damage is wasted if burn is the only condition guardian has” or “it only works on paper” etc.

Well… guess what?

People finally caught on a little bit before the June 23rd patch….
and many Guardians are still running condition damage in pvp.

…but the best part of all of this…. is that players never really complained about the build because it was still unknown to most of the playerbase.

There was never a meta build posted on a site such a metabattle for condition damage guardian… and to my knowledge there still isn’t anything posted on the particular build I’ve been running (for over a year now), till this day.

Why?

…because nobody knew about it… and if the playerbase did… it would have started spreading around like malaria, and it would have gotten nerfed fairly quickly.

Flash forward back to today…

Now that burning stacks in intensity instead of duration…. many players are complaining about how overpowered it is…. and I do agree…. standing in a burning field and accumulating multiple stacks of burning will drop you like a stone in a pond.

…but you guys obviously have no idea how powerful condition damage guardian was before the June 23rd update.

Our traits have been nerfed…

including Amplified Wrath
(which had its effectiveness more than halved as it used to be a 33% increase in burning damage)
and
Fiery Wrath
(which also saw a 30% decrease in effectiveness)

That, when combined with the new formula for how much damage burn does does per stack….
(0.155 * Condition Damage) + (1.55 * Level) + 7.5 damage per stack per second
(0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131.5 damage per stack per second at Level 80

vs

(0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + 328 damage per second at Level 80

means we are doing less damage when we have 1-2 stacks of burning, about the same at 3-4 stacks of burning, a little more at 5 stacks, and 6+ stacks is where the burning starts to get scary.

There are hard counters to condition stacking builds in the meta now, to name a couple…

any competent Necromancer… will simply return all of your conditions to you with a bow on top, and Diamond Skin d/d elementalists

also…
Anyone worth their salt in pvp will not allow the burning to stack over 3-4 stacks before cleansing.

…and if you allow the burning to actually stack to 5 or 6 before you are in downed state (which is usually the case…. someone sees why they have no hp and they notice 5 stacks of burning), I assure you leaving the pre-patch burning on for that long would have downed you against this build no problem.

Cleanse your conditions…. we don’t apply 5+ stacks of burning instantly…. it accumulates over time, from our attacks and you standing in a fire field.

There is also burning’s duration…. which used to easily down players well after I had died in a teamfight if it was not cleansed….. which now lasts, at most…. a couple of seconds.

Burning is now a tiny bitmore front loaded….. (and i say a tiny bit more because you still need to get 3+ stacks for it to be effective) and does less overall damage with this build than it did before…. hands down.

If you played the build before and after the patch you would notice a huge drop in its effectiveness… but all you guys see is the 5th stack of burning being applied right before you enter downed state.

The thing is that prepatch u couldnt do a burst-condi dmg. Right now u can stack burnin in a second that it ticks for 4-5k. Thats why it’s called “burst condi”.

This is what ppl are talkin bout. Your “overall dmg” is totally irrelevant.

Burn guard pre-patch didn’t nuke someone in seconds with burning, it took time and intelligence to pull off, now you can just smash everything that procs a burn and drop someone.

Actually a few things to note:

1. don’t stand around in a fire ring, a well or red circles. Roll, tp, or run the heck out.
2. Burn guards were super scary the first few days of the roll out because everyone ran these ultra high damage squishy builds. Most people now are running a good amount of condi clear. If you arent running condi clear then you actually deserve to be melted into the ground.
3. I actually main necro so I have been toying with a burn guard build and found that while its fun its not the most effective (most guards are running way more bunker now) Most people know how to deal with burn guards now.

Sooo…the thread is kinda confusing now cause my sig is different. At the time I had a semi-decent Burn guard build in my sig. It didn’t use torch and instead relied on Burn duration and Burn on block and Purging Flames + Whirls.

The problem with it was, in an actual game with Shoutbow Wars and D/D Eles there was so much removal that the burn rarely got to do all of its damage. Now, you can stack enough burning that just 2-3 ticks do a huge amount of damage. That’s the important distinction. Both my and False’s more well known Condi Guard needed time for the burn to hurt.

so what you’re saying is you can stack a burn on someone and then sit their cackling like “You’re gonna be in real trouble in 45 seconds!”

when burn stacked duration you could use as many burn skills as you like, heck, get 2 minutes of burn stacked up! you’ll still be doing the same damage each seconds as you would from applying one burn.
now you can really lay on the pain, wanna see something HILARIOUS?
spec for burns, grab the 2 traits that effect virtue of justice (aoe, and proc every 3 hits) and take a staff to the big group of training dummies, its a beautiful sight to behold!

Liewec.2896:

so what you’re saying is you can stack a burn on someone and then sit their cackling like “You’re gonna be in real trouble in 45 seconds!”

when burn stacked duration you could use as many burn skills as you like, heck, get 2 minutes of burn stacked up! you’ll still be doing the same damage each seconds as you would from applying one burn.
now you can really lay on the pain, wanna see something HILARIOUS?
spec for burns, grab the 2 traits that effect virtue of justice (aoe, and proc every 3 hits) and take a staff to the big group of training dummies, its a beautiful sight to behold!

Hitting 5 targets every attack at best applies 3 stacks of burning…. and to one of the targets… 1 or two stacks to some of the others.

What’s so hilarious?

“and might has always buffed condi damage…. before and after patch.”
My quote was about vulnerability not might :/ Before patch vulnerability didnt.

befroe patch your burns would tick 1k, 1k, 1k 1k and it would still get cleansed with 5s on it so 5s wasted damage.
after patch you can tick 1.2k, 2,k, 3k, 2k, and these stacks are always falling off and going on so less burn goes to wasted opposed to before patch.

in essence before patch to do 9k damage with burns it would take 9s. after patch it can take anywhere from 3~6s for example depending on a few things.

there is no legitimate way you are correct from a mathematical standpoint. Burn after patch mathematically will do more damage than before. The only way it wont is if you are constantly spamming someone will 1 stack after 1 stack has fallen off.

You can refute this point all you want but you will always be incorrect :/ the one who is incorrigible is you not us. Unless you dont know how to stack burns fast enough to burst burn for huge damage :/

Sigmoid.7082:

“and might has always buffed condi damage…. before and after patch.”
My quote was about vulnerability not might :/ Before patch vulnerability didnt.

befroe patch your burns would tick 1k, 1k, 1k 1k and it would still get cleansed with 5s on it so 5s wasted damage.
after patch you can tick 1.2k, 2,k, 3k, 2k, and these stacks are always falling off and going on so less burn goes to wasted opposed to before patch.

in essence before patch to do 9k damage with burns it would take 9s. after patch it can take anywhere from 3~6s for example depending on a few things.

there is no legitimate way you are correct from a mathematical standpoint. Burn after patch mathematically will do more damage than before. The only way it wont is if you are constantly spamming someone will 1 stack after 1 stack has fallen off.

You can refute this point all you want but you will always be incorrect :/ the one who is incorrigible is you not us. Unless you dont know how to stack burns fast enough to burst burn for huge damage :/

Again you are right….. you can deal 9k burning damage in 3 seconds….. and then what happens?

You’ve used all your cooldowns to tick for a little over 3k a tick for 3 ticks…. and then there is a huge dropoff.

If you can put your maths on hold for just a moment and look at some real in game numbers for a second…. you will see that nothing I’ve stated is false.

Condition damage is simply more front loaded than it was before.

Just because you can blow your load completely (which is something you don’t even do to begin with) and stack burning for 3.2k for 3 whole seconds…. doesn’t mean you have a constant upkeep of that damage.

You are reduced to the virtue of justice proc…. which is 2 stacks of burning every 3 attacks…. which doesn’t even wrap.

I know of many other classes in pvp atm that can deal much more damage than 9k in a 3s timeframe…. without the “burnout” of sitting there with all your cooldowns blown.

The only true thing you have said is the burn damage from before patch :/ Condition removals are still there. Before patch what? You could do 1k a tick at a push but you cant load burns but nor cant you just fire them and leave them because of how much condition removal is in the game over time you end up doing less damage before than being able to front load say an easy 5 burns ( Zfire, Zflame and passive ) and do the 6k damage instead of doing maybe 1 or 2k to them have it removed and no no more.

Not only can you stack it to do more damage per tick then before consistently but you can also front load it and get a load of damage upfront and not give people a whole load of time to casually remove it.

No matter how its looked at burn is strong now than before patch. Saying burn before was stronger is an extremely false statement. No two ways. Only way it was better before patch is when it was returned to you you didnt condi spike yourself.

Sigmoid.7082:

The only true thing you have said is the burn damage from before patch :/ Condition removals are still there. Before patch what? You could do 1k a tick at a push but you cant load burns but nor cant you just fire them and leave them because of how much condition removal is in the game over time you end up doing less damage before than being able to front load say an easy 5 burns ( Zfire, Zflame and passive ) and do the 6k damage instead of doing maybe 1 or 2k to them have it removed and no no more.

Not only can you stack it to do more damage per tick then before consistently but you can also front load it and get a load of damage upfront and not give people a whole load of time to casually remove it.

No matter how its looked at burn is strong now than before patch. Saying burn before was stronger is an extremely false statement. No two ways. Only way it was better before patch is when it was returned to you you didnt condi spike yourself.

The pressure was constant…. always applied…. even if you removed it, it came right back…. a steady persistent burn.

Now, you are dealing less damage overall, and the pressure is completely absent.

…and even if you did blow all of your cooldowns at once, you get a 3s timeframe where you “burst” ~9k dmg and then you have nothing… and your dps screeches to a halt.

In a fight that lasts 30 seconds, you are screwed.

Before, you would win, easily…. hands down.

Everything with recent guardian change is more burst, less sustained damage. My old burn build had far more damage mods and permanent burning in spite of Condi clear. The new builds rely more on Condi damage and loading burn stacks, this larger reward is also fairly easily countered with Condi clearing. The big bursts can now either be wiped or avoided while the more constant single burns and reduced physical damage mods are less of a threat than before. This new damage mechanic and strategy hit bunker guards even harder. Between the loss of pressure damage, the reduced virtue range and all the crazy burst flying around bunking can be tricky business now.

And yes, sometimes I miss my old burn build too.

Cracks Nuckles

Let’s get right to it.

Burn Guards can have a burn burst potential that’s 3x more damage than your usual power build. It’s also 3x more risky considering our ONLY damaging condition can get cleansed off completely.

People screamed OP when they were entering and exiting Fire Fields and standing next to other players when burn Guards are cleaving. They literally have no idea about our mechanics. People didn’t have a clue about how the class was played.

Now players are learning Fire Fields, they’re spreading out in mid, they’re increasing their 11k health pool and bringing more condi cleanses in a fight. More importantly, there are at least two other classes in the game that almost completely counters us… and it’s not a Mesmer or Ele.

We have a better argument in buffing burn Guard, than nerfing them, due to all the challenges we face in TPvP.

We are balanced in 1v1 and even more balanced in TPvP.

Sayin that burst from a burn guard is ~9k in a 3s timeframe just shows that you got no idea what you talkin bout.

Instead of doin math just jump into PvP and see for urself how much it hurts to be burn bursted from guard.

I’m completely okay with Virtue of Justice’s passive activating every 3 hits (every hit traited) for 3 seconds and its active being 5 seconds. Warriors already get 2 seconds of burning per auto-attack on traited LB.

The title and OP of this thread is factually incorrect.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Hitting 5 targets every attack at best applies 3 stacks of burning…. and to one of the targets… 1 or two stacks to some of the others.

What’s so hilarious?

like i said grab the 2 Virtue of Justice traits so it procs every 3 attacks and applies aoe burn.

i imagine it’d be hilarious for pve zergs, for pvp though you can stack burns waaay higher than this on single target.

Liewec.2896:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Hitting 5 targets every attack at best applies 3 stacks of burning…. and to one of the targets… 1 or two stacks to some of the others.

What’s so hilarious?

like i said grab the 2 Virtue of Justice traits so it procs every 3 attacks and applies aoe burn.

i imagine it’d be hilarious for pve zergs, for pvp though you can stack burns waaay higher than this on single target.

This was predicted waaay before the patch arrived. The picture is nothing new; burn guards do 3x more damage as power but are also 3x more riskier of a build type.

Burns are far from being op considering the amount of counterplay an entire team can possess.

The patch is not what put Burn Guard down a peg. It’s the solid existing balance of the game.

Once condi burst became a big deal, players started carrying cleanse, lots of cleanse, which which every profession has access to in one way or another.

This is just a natural shift in meta responding to a common powerful build.

We are also seeing a lot less ’zerker burst builds than right after the specialisations patch release as players are starting to build defence to prevent instant kills.

Liewec.2896:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Hitting 5 targets every attack at best applies 3 stacks of burning…. and to one of the targets… 1 or two stacks to some of the others.

What’s so hilarious?

like i said grab the 2 Virtue of Justice traits so it procs every 3 attacks and applies aoe burn.

i imagine it’d be hilarious for pve zergs, for pvp though you can stack burns waaay higher than this on single target.

The numbers seen in that picture is the damage from Purging Flames, nothing to do with staff autos….. which is the result of a target staying in the aoe for the full duration.

Virtue of justice does not proc burning on 5 different targets at once like you are fantasizing about, either.

Try the same thing with stationary targets with a staff ele’s meteor shower and none of those targets would still be standing.

Which is more op?