Guild Wars 2

So after playing the beta this weekend, it became obvious that burn stacking is still a problem. Those who don’t run it say it is broken and those who are carried by it say to use a condition clear.

Something needs to be changed here. Instead of nerfing burning, I think condi clear needs to be changed.

The change: Remove the highest damaging condi first when activating a condi clear. Add more skill to to the game play. Be smart about when to use condi clears.

Maybe make it so same condition cannot be applied for 1 second after it’s been cleansed. Would really do wonders for spam.

All skills shouldn’t apply 3 stacks of Burning with a short duration. Instead they should reduce the stack and increase the duration to compensate.

while we are at it can we also make a change so if i eat a mesmer’s shatter combo i take less damage because I don’t like to loose?

you see, i dont like to take blocks or invuns in my build & i just hate learning tells & timing my dodges. so I’m wanting a nerf so i can perform better without improving my skills. basically i just don’t like having to react to a mesmers burst, but i also don’t like getting killed by it so i think it should be nerfed.

At least the OP is consistent. Most of the posts i see from him are him whining about burn. Right now most of the forum is whining about scrapper, chrono, reaper and herald, but at least our friend the OP stays true to his cause.

choovanski.5462:

while we are at it can we also make a change so if i eat a mesmer’s shatter combo i take less damage because I don’t like to loose?

you see, i dont like to take blocks or invuns in my build & i just hate learning tells & timing my dodges. so I’m wanting a nerf so i can perform better without improving my skills. basically i just don’t like having to react to a mesmers burst, but i also don’t like getting killed by it so i think it should be nerfed.

L2R is good for this forum. Learn to read. Look at what I wrote and then try again.

I was having tons of problem with burn even though I was playing Necro all weekend so while I am not quite the god like all our fellow forum frequenters it was the biggest problem I had this beta. Heyoooooooooo

style.6173:

choovanski.5462:

while we are at it can we also make a change so if i eat a mesmer’s shatter combo i take less damage because I don’t like to loose?

you see, i dont like to take blocks or invuns in my build & i just hate learning tells & timing my dodges. so I’m wanting a nerf so i can perform better without improving my skills. basically i just don’t like having to react to a mesmers burst, but i also don’t like getting killed by it so i think it should be nerfed.

L2R is good for this forum. Learn to read. Look at what I wrote and then try again.

L2R between the lines

style.6173:

So after playing the beta this weekend, it became obvious that burn stacking is still a problem. Those who don’t run it say it is broken and those who are carried by it say to use a condition clear.

Something needs to be changed here. Instead of nerfing burning, I think condi clear needs to be changed.

The change: Remove the highest damaging condi first when activating a condi clear. Add more skill to to the game play. Be smart about when to use condi clears.

I would like to see some serious gamewide changes to condi clears. Currently condi clears suffer from following problems:

1. Too many passives, resistances and condi immunities in some builds both in PVP and WVW completely nullifies condi builds and leads to lack of skill / lazy gameplay.

2. Condis are nearly useless or at bare minimum extremely sub-par in large scale PVP (meaning WVW) due to passives and AOE condi cleanse spam.

3. Many condi cleanses are on timers and clear what the player does not necessarily prioritize as “most threatning” at the time per given situation.

4. Condi cleanses tied to factors beyond any players control (mainly, buggy pets and pet issues).

So how to buff condi cleanses for small scale while buffing condis large scale ? Simple. Get rid of at least half if not most of the passives and AOE condi cleanse spam, and replace them with active, on demand abilities, which might even be divided further and on separate skills for different condi types.

More self active condi cleanse abilities would promote skillfull gameplay, while removal of the AOE condi cleanse spam would make condis actually consistantly usefull in large scale. Baddies would no longer be able to “hide in numbers”.

This would also put more responsibility on part of each individual player and while balance problems would remain here and there, it would be shifted towards that player to time and use those skills well.

The problem with this approach is that unfortunately, this game has simply too few available buttons. We would all need another bar, which I don’t think can happen, or can happen in any sort of reasonably timely manner.

I liked the idea of a timeout or something after you cleanse a condition, so it can not be re applied within 1 or 2 seconds.

About giving priority to highest damage condition, I disagree, what about snares, roots, slows etc… I want those cleaned before anything else, at least most of the time (unless I have 10 stacks of burning)

Most builds i meet in pvp are condi – with burn being the predominant one. The problem as I see it is that a lot of condi application is via weapons, and condi cleanse via skills. Which has the shorter cooldown?

It’s therefore easier to reapply than remove – and with burn being so powerful…

Sigil of cleansing would help. Why is it not in pvp?

I still dont die to burning often, most times its dps. And if burning will remove vamprune from beeing meta i would appreciate it a lot! I played a few matches on burn guard and engi and feel the same way as i feel fighting them: i only win against bad ppl with burning. Its like a lucky punch and if you dont hit you have to wait quite long until the next burst. There is a reason we still got a dps meta. As soon as a opponent realises its a burning build, its getting tough.

damage output plus the easy spam, not exactly one thing or another.
On my bunker atm is almost as if i were playing with mostly zerk gear.

choovanski.5462:

while we are at it can we also make a change so if i eat a mesmer’s shatter combo i take less damage because I don’t like to loose?

you see, i dont like to take blocks or invuns in my build & i just hate learning tells & timing my dodges. so I’m wanting a nerf so i can perform better without improving my skills. basically i just don’t like having to react to a mesmers burst, but i also don’t like getting killed by it so i think it should be nerfed.

You, Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar! While your satire may be lost on others here, take heart in the knowledge that your contemporary art form has touched at least one person!

Aeolus.3615:

damage output plus the easy spam, not exactly one thing or another.
On my bunker atm is almost as if i were playing with mostly zerk gear.

A bunker can also dodge. If you get hit 6+ burning ticks, it was a mistake that should also be punished for bunkers. Thats what i hate when i play dps against bunkers. They can do a lot of mistakes and still survive quite long.

People will still continue to defend condition application spam as being a L2P issue, continually validating ANET’s refusal to address the condition meta problem.

This will never change, and it will be a big reason why GW2 is always so low on the Twitch viewer count list when world championships happen.

#JustGW2things

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

trytonianYeti.4389:

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

Exhibit A in proving my previous point.

ScionKai.4907:

trytonianYeti.4389:

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

Exhibit A in proving my previous point.

Lol I main dps shatter Mesmer and carry cleansing, dodge skills that apply high burns and know when to interrupt.

trytonianYeti.4389:

ScionKai.4907:

trytonianYeti.4389:

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

Exhibit A in proving my previous point.

Lol I main dps shatter Mesmer and carry cleansing and know when to interrupt.

I bet.

I suppose i must have spent so much time playing shout guard that i’ve forgotten what burn looks like.

Burning is a problem in low tiers

trytonianYeti.4389:

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

See this is a common type of response from a newer player. Fortunately, for you, I’ll use this as a teaching moment for you.

Anyone who is any good doesn’t just apply burns on a target. They also cover those burns with other condis. So, when a player users a condi clear, you don’t always remove the condition that you want. A simple solution is to remove the condi doing the most damage. After all, isn’t that the reason you used the condi clear in the first place?

You’re welcome.

trytonianYeti.4389:

if this OP spent as much time LEARNING how to counter burning stacks from dodging the skills that apply burns and cleansing at the right time as he does whining on the forums, he’d think burns are underpowered or at least not that of a huge threat

Let me guess, you run a burn build.

Conditions bypass toughness – and then the dire stat on top makes condi builds resistant to dps builds. Celestial means they can do a bit of both quite effectively.

I’m not adverse to conditons, they’ve a place in game and should be viable. But burn IS overpowered compared to other conditions.

I’m sure you see no problems with burns but that doesn’t mean those who are concerned about this should be ignored. However, Anet won’t do anything about it.

Out of interest, those who do run burn builds – why do you? Do you happen to win more with it? Find it easier than other builds?

When not running shout guard to humiliate burn guards, I occasionally run burn guard in unranked to faceroll unskilled players who like to 1vs1 a lot and stack on me. I find that the easiest ones to destroy are warriors, thfs, engis and mesmers.

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

NOOOOOO not another burning thread.
NOOOOOO i don’t worry about burns like you guys
NOOOOOO i don’t main a burn build. I multiclass, engie main but love necro
NOOOOOO my engie main is not p/p rabid
YESSSSSSSSS i played scrapper all ranked solo queue and had no probs w/ burning
YESSSSSSSSS i carry
YESSSSSSSSS burning is a low tier problem
YESSSSSSSSS i play burn guard to troll ppl in unranked coz ppl will never learn

Just my two cents…

Elementalists’ burning still hurts, but since they got toned down, it seems far more reasonable. A good D/D Ele is still incredibly formidable, and burning is no picnic, but it doesn’t see blatantly OP relative to what it was before.

I cannot comment as much for Rangers, as I don’t see a lot of them running burn builds currently.

That being said, Engineers and Guardians are reeeaaallly crankin’ out the burn damage. Guardians especially. The quick ones can blast you into 12 burning stacks in the blink of an eye and it makes any other burst in the game, with the possible exception of the new Kill Shot, seem pretty mediocre.

I mean…it stings like the kittenens.

Edit: Really, I can’t say the last name of the famous author who wrote Oliver Twist?

trytonianYeti.4389:

Burning is a problem in low tiers

Maybe any of the top teams who run two eles should talk to you then. They haven’t gotten the memo.

In the toptier teams there a very few burnguardians and no condi engis. What does this tell?

Its not the damage, its the stacks some of the skills apply.

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Because it would neuter burning/condition guardians? I thought all classes were supposed to be able to do almost everything. We all know its a A-net lie but really do what you are saying and good bye burning guardian as viable. You may be fine with that but I think its a decent reseason.

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Started playing again after a year of not playing last night and this sure was fun to discover in the first game, was obvious by the 3k burn ticks. Literally every single death out of 15 games I played were to burning damage, every time it did 40k+ total damage by itself with the next damage source being 2k or less, did not matter if it was team fights or solo point defense, burning was always the top if I died and 2nd highest source was always 1/20th of burning. Of course I did die once to a zerker Warrior, maybe 3 times to Thieves in team fights and once to a zerker shatter burst, also one time the servers started lagging and I died unable to time dodges against zerker lich form basicx3.

There are more people running dps builds than condi builds still. And I still can’t believe there is still the notion going around that it takes less skill to play condi than dps… That’s literally only something people who are bad at pvp say.

And as far as condi application goes id have to say burn guard needs toned down A BIT. Not a lot, just a bit. I understand their ONLY condi is burn and that’s why they have so many applications for it and their class mechanic is 1/3 based on it but I mean… I can get 7-9 stacks of burning just from three weapon skills with scepter torch. Without getting close to anyone.

Other than that, you got freakin outplayed because you’re not used to that classes condi builds. Sorry.

Seriously… No one who thinks themselves competitive in anyway complains about condi damage. And no cele ele is not a condi build.

Salamander.2504:

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Read my posts in this thread. Sigh. That’s why.

I can’t believe there are some people who actually think it is balanced right now.

ragnarokda.1805:

There are more people running dps builds than condi builds still. And I still can’t believe there is still the notion going around that it takes less skill to play condi than dps… That’s literally only something people who are bad at pvp say.

And as far as condi application goes id have to say burn guard needs toned down A BIT. Not a lot, just a bit. I understand their ONLY condi is burn and that’s why they have so many applications for it and their class mechanic is 1/3 based on it but I mean… I can get 7-9 stacks of burning just from three weapon skills with scepter torch. Without getting close to anyone.

Other than that, you got freakin outplayed because you’re not used to that classes condi builds. Sorry.

Seriously… No one who thinks themselves competitive in anyway complains about condi damage. And no cele ele is not a condi build.

Condi cleanse should remove the most damaging condi. Why is that so bad? Most of the spam classes can reapply burn right away anyway.

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Another post that relies more on insult than in addressing the actual post. Tell me why condi clear shouldn’t remove the most damaging condi. Do you think anyone uses a condi clear to remove 1 stack of a bleed? No, they use it to clear the thing that is hurting them the most.

not everyone dies to condi builds Style. some of us were forced to learn how to fight condi builds in wvw & actually know how to manage condi clears. burn guard is not scary if you can apply counter pressure while managing condis.

as to why condi clears shouldn’t always remove the most damaging condition first; it would remove the ability to cover condis & kill a lot of condi builds. it’s a dumbing down of the game so someone who is bad at managing condis (you, Style) can win more.

choovanski.5462:

not everyone dies to condi builds Style. some of us were forced to learn how to fight condi builds in wvw & actually know how to manage condi clears. burn guard is not scary if you can apply counter pressure while managing condis.

as to why condi clears shouldn’t always remove the most damaging condition first; it would remove the ability to cover condis & kill a lot of condi builds. it’s a dumbing down of the game so someone who is bad at managing condis (you, Style) can win more.

Lol so removing RNG somehow dumbs down a skill based game. Remove the burn you stand a chance at winning the fight, remove the 1 stack of vulnerability/bleed/poison/cripple/blind you lose, such a skilled fight. Guess I just need to learn to dodge the chance on hit to apply burning and 5 other conditions on any attack traits and skills.

choovanski.5462:

not everyone dies to condi builds Style. some of us were forced to learn how to fight condi builds in wvw & actually know how to manage condi clears. burn guard is not scary if you can apply counter pressure while managing condis.

as to why condi clears shouldn’t always remove the most damaging condition first; it would remove the ability to cover condis & kill a lot of condi builds. it’s a dumbing down of the game so someone who is bad at managing condis (you, Style) can win more.

Wow. Burn guards are so defensive. This is not about burn guardians. This is about burn in general. This isn’t about WvW. You are in the wrong forums.

I do find it amusing those that everyone likes to personally attack vs just dealing with the facts.

style.6173:

choovanski.5462:

not everyone dies to condi builds Style. some of us were forced to learn how to fight condi builds in wvw & actually know how to manage condi clears. burn guard is not scary if you can apply counter pressure while managing condis.

as to why condi clears shouldn’t always remove the most damaging condition first; it would remove the ability to cover condis & kill a lot of condi builds. it’s a dumbing down of the game so someone who is bad at managing condis (you, Style) can win more.

Wow. Burn guards are so defensive. This is not about burn guardians. This is about burn in general. This isn’t about WvW. You are in the wrong forums.

I do find it amusing those that everyone likes to personally attack vs just dealing with the facts.

i only play zerker on my guardian ;-)

pretty cool how you complain about personal attack while accusing me of defending burn guard because i play it. pots & kettles you know?

Imho I thinonly Bleed condition should stack in intensity the rest in duration: Burn is broken,Poison is broken, Confusion is messed up big time and Torment is also in that cathegory. While Burn & Posion does insane dmg when stacked I think Confusion and Torment hinder gameplay.

I would like to see all but Bleed go back to Duration stacking. Wont happen ofc due to PvE community but whatever.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

You already answered your own question. The main argument to leaving condition clear alone is that a more skilled player will mask the condition that they want to leave in place by layering in other conditions so that the one they want to hit with is more protected from cleanses. ANet’s is pitching more skillful play. Your change would be counter to their new initiative.

I am not addressing burning, just the change concept to condition cleansing.

dearest style,

People that defend burn damage aren’t necessarily running burn builds. Some people suffer from condis less than others. If you care to look at my end game stats, you will see the effect condition damage have on me.

If ever I end up on the same team as you, I will happily cleanse your burns and shun enemies away.

respectfully yours,
abc

abc.5790:

dearest style,

People that defend burn damage aren’t necessarily running burn builds. Some people suffer from condis less than others. If you care to look at my end game stats, you will see the effect condition damage have on me.

If ever I end up on the same team as you, I will happily cleanse your burns and shun enemies away.

respectfully yours,
abc

First image is a 1 vs 2 against a condition Engineer and axe zerker Warrior. also note the zerker arrived first.
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/64q6wn.jpg[/IMG]
Second is a nice team fight that started with me being chased from one point to next by probably celestial Ele
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/2gt1648.jpg[/IMG]
Third is another 1 vs 2 with a probably celestial Ele coming first but Warrior doesn’t even appear on the damage list and burn is still the main damage dealer.
[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/27zzx9h.jpg[/IMG]
Also note this was one game a few minutes ago but burns seem to be pretty balanced when they are the main killer even when not built around them specifically.

How to fix burning: Create a deminishing returns on the stacks.
I.e every 5 stacks the next stacks after apply reduced damage.

style.6173:

Salamander.2504:

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Read my posts in this thread. Sigh. That’s why.

I can’t believe there are some people who actually think it is balanced right now.

I did read your posts. The first of them were “teaching” people to “learn to read”. The second part (the “valid argument”?) states that burn is OP because people apply cover conditions.

All of your posts were grossly condescending, but unfortunately none of them stated a detailed argument for your case. I’d like to hear it, because I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you aren’t going to get a “valid argument” by bullying people into it.

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