Guild Wars 2

Trepidation Lost.3469:

How to fix burning: Create a deminishing returns on the stacks.
I.e every 5 stacks the next stacks after apply reduced damage.

Still want conditions to be effective in PvE ? Have this effect only apply on players.

I don’t think the solution is having cleanse remove the “most dangerous” condition first because, for one, that is different conditions in different situations. And two, that would basically render builds like burn guard completely useless and really any other condi build that relied on doing most of their damage through a singular condition.

An honest suggestion towards this would be to have more cleanses that got rid of particular conditions. Similar to how there are a load of cleanse-like abilities and traits that remove cripple or immobilize.

People complain about not having enough condi cleansed but they don’t want to trade their damaging sigils in with purity/geomancy.

Then you have team syncronization… Ele, Engi and Burn Guard will obviously show huge Burn damages in the death screen as oppose to Engi War, Revenant. Yet.. people just look at the combined numbers from both classes instead of the damage breakdown :/

I’ve said it before, Burns are only an issue in lower tier, unsyncronized teams. The single condition doesn’t carry builds… if it did then condi Eles and Engi would be a thing.

I don’t know how else to say this without sounding terse but I’m really having a hard time relating to the problems you guys are having with burn damage. If you looked at my end game stats, the condi damage I received was less than 1/3 of direct damage.

I’ll post cause of death the next time I’m in-game

Saiyan.1704:

People complain about not having enough condi cleansed but they don’t want to trade their damaging sigils in with purity/geomancy.

Then you have team syncronization… Ele, Engi and Burn Guard will obviously show huge Burn damages in the death screen as oppose to Engi War, Revenant. Yet.. people just look at the combined numbers from both classes instead of the damage breakdown :/

I’ve said it before, Burns are only an issue in lower tier, unsyncronized teams. The single condition doesn’t carry builds… if it did then condi Eles and Engi would be a thing.

Condition removal skills are generally hard to get and have a long cooldown yet dont even remove everything so you have to trust luck. Conditions happen on every single attack with traits and condition causing skills have low cooldowns and low amount of actual animations, big physical skills can be dodged extremely easily besides dagger Thieves. Shouldn’t even stack, condition builds were OP a year ago and I return to see them making the strongest condition previously stack. Zerker Warrior uses a easily telegraphed stun and you fail to dodge and tries to Hundred Blades you, stun break saves you. Condition Guardian uses 3 instant no animation skills and inflicts 5+ stacks of burning on you and you use your long cooldown condition removal but oh no it removed his weapon swap caused bleed, poison and vulnerability or blind from traits and you quickly burn to death taking 3k per second as he stacks up more as you try to heal.

Salamander.2504:

style.6173:

Salamander.2504:

zapv.8051:

I’ve played pretty much every meta build in this game. I mostly run condition builds for fun in unranked because they suck and get hard countered by anyone smart at using cleanses (I miss terrormancer sooo much). I never get hard countered by diamond skin eles, shout warrs, or smart teams in teamfights when I play power builds. Listen, burn might do slightly too much damage (and it is slight), but most of the other conditions need buffs, and the aoe cleansing in this game makes most conditions irrelevant for anything over a 3vs3.

The only time I really die to burn builds is when I would have died faster to power builds. If a burn guard hits me with 10 stacks of burn, that translates to a mes/thief hitting me for like 10k burst in the same time frame I wasn’t paying attention or was without cds. While those 10 burns might hit for more over their duration, I or my team can remove them to take very little damage. You cannot say the same for power burst. Also, power burst works much better in a coordinated setup. I would much rather face two burn builds over two power builds because removing 20 burns and 10 burns requires the same amount of condi cleanse while avoiding/healing through 20k and 10k damage is vastly different.

TLDR: Condition builds have huge flaws and are only really succesful in 2vs2s or 1vs1s. Also, burning looks more OP then it is because bleeding, torment, confusion and poison are weak right now.

PS: OP is a whiner, been complaining every day since June 23rd instead of learning to counter burn builds.

Nailed it.

style.6173:

I still have not heard one valid argument for why condi cleanse should not clear the most damaging condi first.

Nor has anyone provided a valid argument for why it should.

Read my posts in this thread. Sigh. That’s why.

I can’t believe there are some people who actually think it is balanced right now.

I did read your posts. The first of them were “teaching” people to “learn to read”. The second part (the “valid argument”?) states that burn is OP because people apply cover conditions.

All of your posts were grossly condescending, but unfortunately none of them stated a detailed argument for your case. I’d like to hear it, because I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you aren’t going to get a “valid argument” by bullying people into it.

Read the OP!

Saiyan.1704:

People complain about not having enough condi cleansed but they don’t want to trade their damaging sigils in with purity/geomancy.

Then you have team syncronization… Ele, Engi and Burn Guard will obviously show huge Burn damages in the death screen as oppose to Engi War, Revenant. Yet.. people just look at the combined numbers from both classes instead of the damage breakdown :/

I’ve said it before, Burns are only an issue in lower tier, unsyncronized teams. The single condition doesn’t carry builds… if it did then condi Eles and Engi would be a thing.

Condi eles aren’t a think because dd cele gives plenty of burns plus more.

abc.5790:

I don’t know how else to say this without sounding terse but I’m really having a hard time relating to the problems you guys are having with burn damage. If you looked at my end game stats, the condi damage I received was less than 1/3 of direct damage.

I’ll post cause of death the next time I’m in-game

The end game stats aren’t a good indicator. I actually think they are bugged. Take a friend to an empty map and do nothing but burn skills. You’ll be surprised at the result.

glaphen.5230:

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Either the opposite team was entirely made of condi specs or you received a lot of transferred conditions or you healed through a lot of them with no cleansing your received healing is pretty close to both damage types. You had good healers interesting however your build worries me.

Saiyan.1704:

People complain about not having enough condi cleansed but they don’t want to trade their damaging sigils in with purity/geomancy.

Then you have team syncronization… Ele, Engi and Burn Guard will obviously show huge Burn damages in the death screen as oppose to Engi War, Revenant. Yet.. people just look at the combined numbers from both classes instead of the damage breakdown :/

I’ve said it before, Burns are only an issue in lower tier, unsyncronized teams. The single condition doesn’t carry builds… if it did then condi Eles and Engi would be a thing.

It isn’t about the single burn. The whole point of this thread is that condi removal should cleanse the highest damaging condition first. It is really easy to put a variety of conditions on an opponent. Cleanse needs to pull off the most damaging. No one uses a cleanse to clear 1 bleed stack.

Sagat.3285:

glaphen.5230:

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Either the opposite team was entirely made of condi specs or you received a lot of transferred conditions or you healed through a lot of them with no cleansing your received healing is pretty close to both damage types. You had good healers interesting however your build worries me.

3 physical, 2 condition builds. I was the only bunker build on my team and at least 3 were condition builds on my team, not sure what class the 4th even was now but one was condition Thief. Build had me at top 25 of solo queue when I played a year ago and if anything the healing was mainly the physical damage that I can possibly sustain if I don’t mess up and they don’t out play me, any time a condition build entered vision range I died quickly unless my burst was up and they were too bad to dodge it but I will still probably die before I stomp. Either way 189 removed conditions which were mainly damaging ones from Pain Response every 20 seconds and it still tied with the majority.

Since you seem to want a direct response to your original post.

style.6173:

So after playing the beta this weekend, it became obvious that burn stacking is still a problem. Those who don’t run it say it is broken and those who are carried by it say to use a condition clear.

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

style.6173:

Something needs to be changed here. Instead of nerfing burning, I think condi clear needs to be changed.

The change: Remove the highest damaging condi first when activating a condi clear. Add more skill to to the game play. Be smart about when to use condi clears.

You go on to suggest a change to condition clear based on your previously false conclusion. Which of course leads you to a somewhat outrageous change to anyone who’s ever actually played a condition build.

If the highest damage condition was removed first, condition damage builds would disappear completely from the game. Clearing anything that actually hurt would be so easy and mindless that even the worst players could do it. It would be like the current problem with condition builds in fights over 3vs3 where you can’t get enough damage because of aoe cleansing, but in every single encounter.

The current implementation where the last applied condition gets removed first allows for the skillful play of cover conditions. It also allows skillful counterplay by quickly using condition removals after a big burst application. This requires players to be smart about condition clears.

Now, all of this isn’t to say some classes don’t need better condition clear options, but a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too. You don’t get to spec for all out burst and be super resistant to conditions. The reason condition builds have a defensive stat is precisely because they have the direct counter of condition removal, and you have to land multiple attacks to reach burst levels of damage over a 1 second interval.

zapv.8051:

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

So apparently his statement is false and other peoples statement that they play don’t play condition builds is a fact based off absolutely nothing.

style.6173:

Saiyan.1704:

People complain about not having enough condi cleansed but they don’t want to trade their damaging sigils in with purity/geomancy.

Then you have team syncronization… Ele, Engi and Burn Guard will obviously show huge Burn damages in the death screen as oppose to Engi War, Revenant. Yet.. people just look at the combined numbers from both classes instead of the damage breakdown :/

I’ve said it before, Burns are only an issue in lower tier, unsyncronized teams. The single condition doesn’t carry builds… if it did then condi Eles and Engi would be a thing.

It isn’t about the single burn. The whole point of this thread is that condi removal should cleanse the highest damaging condition first. It is really easy to put a variety of conditions on an opponent. Cleanse needs to pull off the most damaging. No one uses a cleanse to clear 1 bleed stack.

I agree that a certain burst conditions such as high burn/torment/confusion stack threshold should have priority over other conditions. But these stacks should be 12 for burns and 8-9 for torment. Even then, we’re talking about supremes here; the incredibly high burn stacks that usually happen when syncronized players focus damage a single target.

You’re talking about a removal to condi bursts when Power users (zerk thieves, zerk mesmers, zerk warriors) have free realm over controlling their burst damages.

I remember the QQ threads about Zerk burst builds. Burst condi isn’t any worse than what burst power is dishing out. Especially now after witnessing what power Rev was capable of.

glaphen.5230:

zapv.8051:

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

So apparently his statement is false and other peoples statement that they play don’t play condition builds is a fact based off absolutely nothing.

Do you really think that every player defending conditions in this thread plays condition builds exclusively across all the professions they use in PvP, and that playing a condition build somehow makes them unaffected by condition damage coming from the opposing team? Most people play a variety of builds, and they all have to deal with incoming conditions. Condi builds can have trouble cleansing too if they don’t incorporate enough condition clears into their build, so conditions aren’t a unique problem for non-condi players, either. If anything, you should be accusing all of the people defending condis of playing Diamond Skin Elementalist.

In response to removing the highest-damage condition first, I think we should also rework Blinds and Blocks so that they aren’t consumed by skills that deal damage below a certain threshold. I don’t want to negate autoattacks while Heartseeker is killing me, so I’d like Blinds and Blocks to only target the opponent’s most important damage skills. This would help reduce the RNG on these effects and help give players a way to counter the power builds that all the top teams are running.

Soryuju.8164:

glaphen.5230:

zapv.8051:

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

So apparently his statement is false and other peoples statement that they play don’t play condition builds is a fact based off absolutely nothing.

Do you really think that every player defending conditions in this thread plays condition builds exclusively across all the professions they use in PvP, and that playing a condition build somehow makes them unaffected by condition damage coming from the opposing team? Most people play a variety of builds, and they all have to deal with incoming conditions. Condi builds can have trouble cleansing too if they don’t incorporate enough condition clears into their build, so conditions aren’t a unique problem for non-condi players, either. If anything, you should be accusing all of the people defending condis of playing Diamond Skin Elementalist.

In response to removing the highest-damage condition first, I think we should also rework Blinds and Blocks so that they aren’t consumed by skills that deal damage below a certain threshold. I don’t want to negate autoattacks while Heartseeker is killing me, so I’d like Blinds and Blocks to only target the opponent’s most important damage skills. This would help reduce the RNG on these effects and help give players a way to counter the power builds that all the top teams are running.

You bring up a good point unintentionally. For direct damage attacks, an opponent has blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities,and dodges. For condition damage, the only counter play are dodges. Condi cleanse is the only other option and so it needs to remove the most damaging condition first.

style.6173:

Soryuju.8164:

glaphen.5230:

zapv.8051:

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

So apparently his statement is false and other peoples statement that they play don’t play condition builds is a fact based off absolutely nothing.

Do you really think that every player defending conditions in this thread plays condition builds exclusively across all the professions they use in PvP, and that playing a condition build somehow makes them unaffected by condition damage coming from the opposing team? Most people play a variety of builds, and they all have to deal with incoming conditions. Condi builds can have trouble cleansing too if they don’t incorporate enough condition clears into their build, so conditions aren’t a unique problem for non-condi players, either. If anything, you should be accusing all of the people defending condis of playing Diamond Skin Elementalist.

In response to removing the highest-damage condition first, I think we should also rework Blinds and Blocks so that they aren’t consumed by skills that deal damage below a certain threshold. I don’t want to negate autoattacks while Heartseeker is killing me, so I’d like Blinds and Blocks to only target the opponent’s most important damage skills. This would help reduce the RNG on these effects and help give players a way to counter the power builds that all the top teams are running.

You bring up a good point unintentionally. For direct damage attacks, an opponent has blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities,and dodges. For condition damage, the only counter play are dodges. Condi cleanse is the only other option and so it needs to remove the most damaging condition first.

Blocks, blinds, and invulnerabilities all work on skills that apply conditions the same way they work on skills that do regular damage. There’s also Resistance, which will be even more prevalent in HoT. I fail to see your point.

Soryuju.8164:

style.6173:

Soryuju.8164:

glaphen.5230:

zapv.8051:

The first sentence is an opinion. The second is blatantly false because many people stating they don’t really play condition builds have said burning is not broken in this very thread. The only way I see you could reach the conclusion of the second sentence is if you literally think anyone who disagrees with you runs burn builds regardless of their own statements.

So apparently his statement is false and other peoples statement that they play don’t play condition builds is a fact based off absolutely nothing.

Do you really think that every player defending conditions in this thread plays condition builds exclusively across all the professions they use in PvP, and that playing a condition build somehow makes them unaffected by condition damage coming from the opposing team? Most people play a variety of builds, and they all have to deal with incoming conditions. Condi builds can have trouble cleansing too if they don’t incorporate enough condition clears into their build, so conditions aren’t a unique problem for non-condi players, either. If anything, you should be accusing all of the people defending condis of playing Diamond Skin Elementalist.

In response to removing the highest-damage condition first, I think we should also rework Blinds and Blocks so that they aren’t consumed by skills that deal damage below a certain threshold. I don’t want to negate autoattacks while Heartseeker is killing me, so I’d like Blinds and Blocks to only target the opponent’s most important damage skills. This would help reduce the RNG on these effects and help give players a way to counter the power builds that all the top teams are running.

You bring up a good point unintentionally. For direct damage attacks, an opponent has blocks, blinds, invulnerabilities,and dodges. For condition damage, the only counter play are dodges. Condi cleanse is the only other option and so it needs to remove the most damaging condition first.

Blocks, blinds, and invulnerabilities all work on skills that apply conditions the same way they work on skills that do regular damage. There’s also Resistance, which will be even more prevalent in HoT. I fail to see your point.

But they don’t because no condition skills have that obvious of an animation if one at all, you see a Warrior crouching with a rifle you know a Killshot is incoming and can counter it in many ways, conditions apply themselves on any skill hit and you can’t dodge those forever but there are limited dangerous physical skills and the more you add the squisher they are while condition builds are still tanky. Since you mention resistance I looked at every single new elite specialization and the only new source is the condition build of Revenant having 1 trait when you use a utility in that form and 1 utility in that form, only other reliable source is Warriors healing signet that has a long cast time and kills your sustain completely, other than that you have chill conversion utilities on some classes.

Glaphe? Is that you? Back from the dead?
The double short bow legend has made a reappearance.

To the person saying “there’s still more power builds” — duh.

Some of us play PvP to have fun, not to be an annoying tryhard playing the latest op fad. I don’t know about you but I have more fun whacking people with a hammer / shooting people with a gun, than being a little kitten burn-guard or pet-mancer abusing game mechanics and literally letting the game do 90% of the work for me.

Condition specs and pet specs are one in the same in that they give people a delusion of skill while in reality pets / conditions is just a way for the game to play itself while you sit, laugh and tell people to ‘get gud’ until the thing is nerfed and you jump on the next OP fad — in a good majority of cases. It happened to turret engineer, now it’s happening to burn.

If Revs aren’t nerfed I’m expecting a lot of revs on this forum telling people to ‘get gud’ shortly after HoT release, the same way burn people are doing right now.

It is so simple, burning is not op and doesnt need to be fixed. If it were op, esl would be full of burning builds. If you cannot handle burns, you do sth wrong, a true l2p issue. The fact you can cover burns in other conditions is still not enough for burning to be a valid option in high tier teams. If you would take this away, condi builds are even more useless.

AND NO, i dont play burning builds, i prefer sth i can rely on to work against every opponent, dps. Yes, i tried burning builds and bad players got melted in a few secs, but only the really bad ones. I main thief and still can fight against most burning builds, i prefer them a lot over the other builds those classes have as an opponent.
Its the same with turret engis, those were never hard opponents. Just a low tier games.

I laugh at all these fanbois and defenders of the new burn era.

Anyone remembering the 50% confusion damage nerf 2 years ago? Why not reactivating it to the old standards and double it as it used to be cause cond. damage can kill kitten.

And by the way, can we implement Runes of perplexity for pvp too plz and runes of torment and so on? Because we already have rune of balthasar.

Oh, no… wait… there was a big cry not long ago. DON´T implement Perplexity runes in pvp!! It kills pvp! lol There was even a petition not to implement them.

But… can we have them now since condition damage seems not to be a point in high tpvp?

kthxbye

sigh…people that fail at sarcasm should stick to being direct

glaphen.5230:

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Your build made me vomit.

cakeonroof.7385:

sigh…people that fail at sarcasm should stick to being direct

Hush, go away lil burn guard and play ur tools.

….Sooo, yeah, i find the arbitrarily patch history from Arenanet failing at sarcasm, too.

So called “Dead PvP” when implementing perplexity/torment runes into PvP Area but raising stacking burn conditon far above the old standards of formerly nerfed confusion damage. This is really failing sarcasm of arena net.

The best move was certainly nerfing maim the desillusionded cause it was much stronger than actual burning stacks… so sarcastically.

k thx bye

Burning was obviously the top damages, but there’s so much passive damage that the game can’t even keep track of what is hitting me anymore lol.

If you are not bringing clears no matter your personal damage type that is on you. We have spike bunker and condi. It isn’t that complex. If you do not bring clears use your dodges or watch your condis then what can anyone do. When burst was the meta people kittened, when tanky dps the same, and condis the same. No one builds to deal they head to the forums to complain. It gets to me every time. Nobody gets better at the game they kitten and wait for nerfs and buffs. Once HoT hits the tears will be too much to handle. We saw one weekend of it. Most players instead of learning builds and counters came to complain. I see vets and new players do the same thing. “How good are you really?” I implore you to ask yourself that question. Because at this point you have guard, trap ranger, and engi that could probably burn you to death. If you can not handle those 3 it really is on you. Bring a clear and negate the damage.

TheGuy.3568:

If you are not bringing clears no matter your personal damage type that is on you. We have spike bunker and condi. It isn’t that complex. If you do not bring clears use your dodges or watch your condis then what can anyone do. When burst was the meta people kittened, when tanky dps the same, and condis the same. No one builds to deal they head to the forums to complain. It gets to me every time. Nobody gets better at the game they kitten and wait for nerfs and buffs. Once HoT hits the tears will be too much to handle. We saw one weekend of it. Most players instead of learning builds and counters came to complain. I see vets and new players do the same thing. “How good are you really?” I implore you to ask yourself that question. Because at this point you have guard, trap ranger, and engi that could probably burn you to death. If you can not handle those 3 it really is on you. Bring a clear and negate the damage.

There’s a thread you should check out about the scrapper being ele 2.0

It looks as if a group of so called top tier players have posted on there about how OP the scrapper is and how it should be nerfed a bit. They showed no videos, no screenshots, just their word that their team thought it was OP. For them to create a fear mongering thread and then suggest that the build gets nerfed, I feel is robbing pvpers the opportunity to try out the scrapper as it was intended.

I’m not even sure if any of those guys main an engie.

It was a bit shocking for me because one would not expect such lowly actions from top pvpers.