Guild Wars 2

So we all know that burn damage, or application, like the sun is OP (or whatever) and something needs to be done about it. I’m not horribly concerned however there is one thing I have noticed.

I’m fine fending off the condition when running any instant cleanse ability (I main mes, Inspiration line with mantra heal + shatter cleanse = instant on demand cleanses), however with burning damage so high any cleanse with a cast time falls miserably short because you’ll die before you can get through the cast time (interrupts aside).

To keep burning as is all cleanse skills would need to have their cast times heavily reduced. That, or alter the way in which burn ticks execute, or apply their damage.

Conclusion: If burning damage isnt to high then the mechanics behind application and various cleansing skills are out of sync.

Today I had 17 stacks of burn messing around in a hot join and I could not remove it fast enough with shadow step, shadow return before it mulled me down. Was quite funny and all I could do was laugh.

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

Thank god we’re all playing Mesmer, and have cleanse options on mesmer that don’t have cast times. All those other options be kitten ed!

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

The OP is correct here. Some classes literally don’t have the condi cleanse to deal with the burn meta.

My mesmer does, by taking inspiration line it’s not a problem which is why mesmer is good against a cele ele for example. On mesmer when taking that line I can’t be killed by conditions 1v1.

Now let’s talk about my ranger; on ranger I take healing spring traited (pulse 2 condi removes) and 2 survival utilities for on demand 2 condi removals. That seems like a lot of cleanse right? Well, for a short while until the cele ele starts timing the fire attunement or burn guard burst you when spring is on CD, then you basically have to run or die. I could go all survival utility route and do no damage, all for the sake of cleansing. But it’s awkward and inefficient.

Some classes just don’t have great ways of getting the burning off. Should it be this way? I don’t know. The only class I really see being a problem is cele d/d ele. The other burning classes can smartly be dealt with and have sufficient weaknesses. Cele ele does not, and I think that spec in itself needs attention before burning is tweaked.

classes that apply high burn ticks are often single targeted, engie and guard.

i play Mesmer too and it’s not hard to avoid/dodge or interrupt their high burn skills.

if against an engie, use your cleanse from incendiary ammo and just keep distance to negate pistol 4. that’s it. then the engie is screwed coz of long cd.

vs guards it’s easy to dodge from blue fireball, stay away from burn field. if they teleport, use f4.

Yeah, again, the only glaring problems I see in game at the moment are

1. Cele d/d ele. Fix this darn spec. Nao; it can be beaten by nothing on point. Good mesmers and cele signet necros can give it a scare but it’s just way over the top.

2. Burning has made bleeding irrelevant. Either burning or bleeding needs to mechanically be changed because right now burning is just 3x as strong. Maybe give bleed some unique other side effect, like the other condis have, and make burning the straight up damage condi.

i wont argue with you there. ele burning is ridiculous due to ring of fire that could do 6 or more stacks of burning with a very very very very very very very short cd. 10 sec if traited and guess what, all dd eles do.

abc.5790:

classes that apply high burn ticks are often single targeted, engie and guard.

i play Mesmer too and it’s not hard to avoid/dodge or interrupt their high burn skills.

if against an engie, use your cleanse from incendiary ammo and just keep distance to negate pistol 4. that’s it. then the engie is screwed coz of long cd.

vs guards it’s easy to dodge from blue fireball, stay away from burn field. if they teleport, use f4.

Not quite so simple. Good engis can use the burning toolbelt 3 times in a row before it goes on cd. Guards proc burns that you can’t evade and running awy from the guard whenever he has a blue circle isnt always an option.

On topic: on engi my only instant cleanse is elixir s and usually im pretty much dead by the end of it if it happens to cleanse the wrong condi.
Kinda funny how conditions was supposed to be a mesmers weakspot.

Also good with bringing the other condis up to par if burning gets nerfed.

Pride.1734:

abc.5790:

classes that apply high burn ticks are often single targeted, engie and guard.

i play Mesmer too and it’s not hard to avoid/dodge or interrupt their high burn skills.

if against an engie, use your cleanse from incendiary ammo and just keep distance to negate pistol 4. that’s it. then the engie is screwed coz of long cd.

vs guards it’s easy to dodge from blue fireball, stay away from burn field. if they teleport, use f4.

Not quite so simple. Good engis can use the burning toolbelt 3 times in a row before it goes on cd. Guards proc burns that you can’t evade and running awy from the guard whenever he has a blue circle isnt always an option.

On topic: on engi my only instant cleanse is elixir s and usually im pretty much dead by the end of it if it happens to cleanse the wrong condi.
Kinda funny how conditions was supposed to be a mesmers weakspot.

Also good with bringing the other condis up to par if burning gets nerfed.

Good engies like to stay alive.

I have absolutely no issues cleansing burns on engie with my amr hgh cleansing synergy spec. I have 3 engies I primarily pvp with each with a different build. Kinetic battery is ok if against high dps opponents.

That’s the reason I’m sketchy about burn nerfs themselves, as burn guards/engi/ranger whatever else aren’t real problems. They are problems for people who don’t know how to play, ofcourse.

Ele is the only one of the burning specs that seems to be too much IMO. Burn guard maybe, but even on my ranger with average condi cleanse burn guards don’t bother me much. Ele however is just at a ridiculous level, and pretty much everyone in this game agrees with that, but for some reason anet hasn’t touched them yet. They nerfed might stacking, and I think they nerfed cele at one point? Nothing changed in regards to d/d ele. If they nerf burning, I predict nothing will change about d/d ele.

Elementalist d/d spec is the problem. Nerf it’s access to burn and might stacking. Fix the darn buggyness of ring of fire too.

abc.5790:

Good engies like to stay alive.

I have absolutely no issues cleansing burns on engie with my amr hgh cleansing synergy spec. I have 3 engies I primarily pvp with each with a different build. Kinetic battery is ok if against high dps opponents.

Good engis stack the burn, moa you and you die. Kinetic battery mainly improves burst oriented engi comps like the marauder rifle aaaand the burn engi.

Pride.1734:

abc.5790:

Good engies like to stay alive.

I have absolutely no issues cleansing burns on engie with my amr hgh cleansing synergy spec. I have 3 engies I primarily pvp with each with a different build. Kinetic battery is ok if against high dps opponents.

Good engis stack the burn, moa you and you die. Kinetic battery mainly improves burst oriented engi comps like the marauder rifle aaaand the burn engi.

This thread is about cleansing burn damage. As an engie, I have no problem with cleansing burn damage.

The only problem is Fire field. Nerf fire fields across all characters and problem is resolved.

First change what we need is reduced burning application on Fire fields from 1 sec to 2 sec like Black Powder

I have no idea why this OP skill have insanely low CD http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_field

abc.5790:

Pride.1734:

abc.5790:

Good engies like to stay alive.

I have absolutely no issues cleansing burns on engie with my amr hgh cleansing synergy spec. I have 3 engies I primarily pvp with each with a different build. Kinetic battery is ok if against high dps opponents.

Good engis stack the burn, moa you and you die. Kinetic battery mainly improves burst oriented engi comps like the marauder rifle aaaand the burn engi.

This thread is about cleansing burn damage. As an engie, I have no problem with cleansing burn damage.

cleansing burn on an engi is easy if its the only condi on you, if there is more than 2 condi’s on you & the cleanse doesnt clear burn then you’re kittened… also if they re-apply burn right after you’re kittened

abc.5790:

This thread is about cleansing burn damage. As an engie, I have no problem with cleansing burn damage.

As a 2.5 years engi main i find that sinceerly hard to believe if you have been playing against competent opponents.

abc.5790:

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

And rangers, wowowowow.. what ???
Rangers have literally the worst condi cleansing in the game currently.
We have 3 condi removel in 10 sec interval, where we don’t have a clue when this cleanse will happen, this means you’ll already eat 5-6 sec of burn which is crucial OR your pet will get those conditions and will instantly die of burning unless you are running bear or drakes.. LOL

Then we have survival skills to remove condis, really? The last thing ranger should do is waste utility stun break or any survival skill just for condi cleanse. RANGER NEEDS utility to play, not to use them for cleansing condis..

Condition melee ranger with s/t + a/d is fine, because you run signet + remove on survival skill use, because you use 3-4 survival skills anyways. BUT… to be fair if you expect power ranger to run more then 2 utilities that are survival you are wrong, because with current meta, this is IMPOSSIBLE and rangers are literally on the worst position currently to deal with this kind of problems.

Sadly game does have mechanics to prevent power damage, and we know how to deal with power builds, but in condition cases, anet did not provide enough condition clears for classes to make this fights equal, CONDI vs POWER. SO i hope anet got a call from this lecture..

Evilek.5690:

The only problem is Fire field. Nerf fire fields across all characters and problem is resolved.

First change what we need is reduced burning application on Fire fields from 1 sec to 2 sec like Black Powder

I have no idea why this OP skill have insanely low CD http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_field

No we need fileds to stay, they are the only things that make game fun (combos).
What we need is, new way and harder way to apply burning, specially with guardians and eles they have to easy way to apply burning.

Firelysm.4967:

Evilek.5690:

The only problem is Fire field. Nerf fire fields across all characters and problem is resolved.

First change what we need is reduced burning application on Fire fields from 1 sec to 2 sec like Black Powder

I have no idea why this OP skill have insanely low CD http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_field

No we need fileds to stay, they are the only things that make game fun (combos).
What we need is, new way and harder way to apply burning, specially with guardians and eles they have to easy way to apply burning.

Elementalist player right ?

Firelysm.4967:

abc.5790:

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

And rangers, wowowowow.. what ???
Rangers have literally the worst condi cleansing in the game currently.
We have 3 condi removel in 10 sec interval, where we don’t have a clue when this cleanse will happen, this means you’ll already eat 5-6 sec of burn which is crucial OR your pet will get those conditions and will instantly die of burning unless you are running bear or drakes.. LOL

Then we have survival skills to remove condis, really? The last thing ranger should do is waste utility stun break or any survival skill just for condi cleanse. RANGER NEEDS utility to play, not to use them for cleansing condis..

Condition melee ranger with s/t + a/d is fine, because you run signet + remove on survival skill use, because you use 3-4 survival skills anyways. BUT… to be fair if you expect power ranger to run more then 2 utilities that are survival you are wrong, because with current meta, this is IMPOSSIBLE and rangers are literally on the worst position currently to deal with this kind of problems.

Sadly game does have mechanics to prevent power damage, and we know how to deal with power builds, but in condition cases, anet did not provide enough condition clears for classes to make this fights equal, CONDI vs POWER. SO i hope anet got a call from this lecture..

Totaly agree with all of this. But the main problem i already said thousand times is not the fact we dont have enough condi cleanser on demand, is the fact that condi can be applied too much in this game, plus the fact condi should never burst. Its a support damage, every build that has condi damage as the main source of damage should be checked, cuz its wrong.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Today I had 17 stacks of burn messing around in a hot join and I could not remove it fast enough with shadow step, shadow return before it mulled me down. Was quite funny and all I could do was laugh.

What did you do to get 17 stacks of burning?

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

All they need to do is halve the damage and double the duration, so its closer to 2:1 of bleed rather than 4:1 in terms of damage, which would keep it as the “high damage” condition, but better fit the theme of conditions not being about burst but rolling damage that needs to be (smartly!!) removed. Right now, if you get burning on you, you basically have to get it off of you right now or you will die. That’s counter to condition design.

As for pve, would be a slight nerf at the start of fights, but as long as the duration is there, it’d just stack up higher, wouldn’t make a super huge difference, but still a bit of a nerf. Burning still out-does every other condition there, too, so maybe it’s justified.

ronpierce.2760:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

All they need to do is halve the damage and double the duration, so its closer to 2:1 of bleed rather than 4:1 in terms of damage, which would keep it as the “high damage” condition, but better fit the theme of conditions not being about burst but rolling damage that needs to be (smartly!!) removed. Right now, if you get burning on you, you basically have to get it off of you right now or you will die. That’s counter to condition design.

As for pve, would be a slight nerf at the start of fights, but as long as the duration is there, it’d just stack up higher, wouldn’t make a super huge difference, but still a bit of a nerf. Burning still out-does every other condition there, too, so maybe it’s justified.

Why do that when there is, arguably, only one class who makes burning seem op? People say nerf burning then complain about the Ele and not so much about engi, guard and rangers.

Saiyan.1704:

Why do that when there is, arguably, only one class who makes burning seem op? People say nerf burning then complain about the Ele and not so much about engi, guard and rangers.

Because celestial d/d elementalist can have great sustain, good mobility, good dps, okay team support and lots of burning in one build:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

p/p + ft condi engineer can be dish out even more burns, but after using all the skills, he has much less sustain, less mobility and awful condition cleansing:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Rabid_Flamethrower

That is why you see a lot of d/d eles in spvp, but very few condition engineers.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Saiyan.1704:

Why do that when there is, arguably, only one class who makes burning seem op? People say nerf burning then complain about the Ele and not so much about engi, guard and rangers.

Because celestial d/d elementalist can have great sustain, good mobility, good dps, okay team support and lots of burning in one build:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger

p/p + ft condi engineer can be dish out even more burns, but after using all the skills, he has much less sustain, less mobility and awful condition cleansing:

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Rabid_Flamethrower

That is why you see a lot of d/d eles in spvp, but very few condition engineers.

It was rhetorical, but thanks for making my point XD. Other classes who uses burns have apparent weakness.

Saiyan.1704:

ronpierce.2760:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

All they need to do is halve the damage and double the duration, so its closer to 2:1 of bleed rather than 4:1 in terms of damage, which would keep it as the “high damage” condition, but better fit the theme of conditions not being about burst but rolling damage that needs to be (smartly!!) removed. Right now, if you get burning on you, you basically have to get it off of you right now or you will die. That’s counter to condition design.

As for pve, would be a slight nerf at the start of fights, but as long as the duration is there, it’d just stack up higher, wouldn’t make a super huge difference, but still a bit of a nerf. Burning still out-does every other condition there, too, so maybe it’s justified.

Why do that when there is, arguably, only one class who makes burning seem op? People say nerf burning then complain about the Ele and not so much about engi, guard and rangers.

Burning is very powerful on just about anyone who uses it, Burn Guardians, even Engineer. Elementalists, yes make it a bit ridiculous. The problem with those “others” where burning is “fine” has less to do with how strong or not strong Burning is, but other contributing factors. Burn guardians have little-to-no coverage, Engineers tend to be easier to kill and harder to land (especially pistol 5 which seems to have a buggy hitbox). But even then, they manage to still be “okay” (not great) simply due to the power of Burning. If burn Guardians had decent condition coverage it’d be absolutely bonkers. Similarly, change all the burns Elementalist has to Bleeding and suddenly it wouldn’t be nearly as potent.

That said, burn is still too strong. Perhaps condition oriented guardians could use a better mix-of-access or better ways to re-apply after a burst to keep some sustain conditions. There are ways to bring things up and still bring burning down to an appropriate level, and ensure builds aren’t one-trick ponies.

The fact that burn guard can even be considered a “thing” at all with their single-type condition stacking (for the most part) without a single damage condition on any of their auto attacks should say something as to how powerful burns are alone. Burns basically carry that build, which should be helped in other ways to be less niche.

All I’m saying is burning, is too strong compared to other conditions. It’s basic math.
“Bleeding – 0.06 22 per stack per second +6 per stack per second

Burning – .155 131.5 per stack per second +15.5 per stack per second"

A single burn without condition damage (base) is 6! times a base bleed, and scales almost 3x as fast. This is how you get celestial damage that is so high, and in general, conditions should not be this bursty.

Long story short: Burns VASTLY out-class every other condition, have too high of a base and are counter to the condition design of timing cleanses, requiring immediate removal at all times. Burn Guardian issue is less of an issue simply because only 1-2 conditions ever need to be removed, and they still manage to be fairly strong, which is pretty amazing if you ask me, and should honestly have other considerations instead, such as a trait that adds a stacking damage component to vulnerability the Guardian applies, to keep it within the Guardian theme, just as a random idea.

Evilek.5690:

Firelysm.4967:

Evilek.5690:

The only problem is Fire field. Nerf fire fields across all characters and problem is resolved.

First change what we need is reduced burning application on Fire fields from 1 sec to 2 sec like Black Powder

I have no idea why this OP skill have insanely low CD http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_field

No we need fileds to stay, they are the only things that make game fun (combos).
What we need is, new way and harder way to apply burning, specially with guardians and eles they have to easy way to apply burning.

Elementalist player right ?

Sadly i hate elementalists, but i’m not this kind of ignorant player that would break play style to make my own superior, i just want that broken things get sorted, and under one condition, to keep mechanics fun and not breaking every thing just to fix one minor thing that makes some conditions and some applying way to easy.

Shala.8352:

Firelysm.4967:

abc.5790:

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

And rangers, wowowowow.. what ???
Rangers have literally the worst condi cleansing in the game currently.
We have 3 condi removel in 10 sec interval, where we don’t have a clue when this cleanse will happen, this means you’ll already eat 5-6 sec of burn which is crucial OR your pet will get those conditions and will instantly die of burning unless you are running bear or drakes.. LOL

Then we have survival skills to remove condis, really? The last thing ranger should do is waste utility stun break or any survival skill just for condi cleanse. RANGER NEEDS utility to play, not to use them for cleansing condis..

Condition melee ranger with s/t + a/d is fine, because you run signet + remove on survival skill use, because you use 3-4 survival skills anyways. BUT… to be fair if you expect power ranger to run more then 2 utilities that are survival you are wrong, because with current meta, this is IMPOSSIBLE and rangers are literally on the worst position currently to deal with this kind of problems.

Sadly game does have mechanics to prevent power damage, and we know how to deal with power builds, but in condition cases, anet did not provide enough condition clears for classes to make this fights equal, CONDI vs POWER. SO i hope anet got a call from this lecture..

Totaly agree with all of this. But the main problem i already said thousand times is not the fact we dont have enough condi cleanser on demand, is the fact that condi can be applied too much in this game, plus the fact condi should never burst. Its a support damage, every build that has condi damage as the main source of damage should be checked, cuz its wrong.

I think condi should have burst, but that should be controlled very carefully because current state of mesmers, engies and guardians in condition build wise they are just one broken ***t that anet left unbalanced on purpose to change some of meta which i support, but keep them balanced!

PROBLEM WITH ANET IS THAT THEY DID NOT DEVELOPE GOOD ENOUGH CONDI CLEAR MECHANICS.

We have dodge for for psychical dmg, but what do we have for conditions?
I’m ranger + thief main! In order to get any conditions work we have very stupid way of removing them and this is main through “interval condition clearing” which is … sorry anet kittenED.

For example Empathic Bond removes 3 condis every 10 seconds.
HUGE PROBLEM:

• we don’t know when the 10 second mark
• by the time 10 second mark to clear condition is up, your 6 second of 3k burn is already removed by itself.. and after 10 second mark they can apply conditions again, and this makes this trait STUPID and UNPROFESSIONAL RNG ***T anet seriously?
• no matter what pets you use, your pets die even bears and drakes! I won’t even mention how fast birds and spiders die..
  
  
  SOLUTION:
• Ranger should have Empathic Bond reworked, remove 2 conditions every 5 seconds of first condition application and not rotate the stupid timer on RANDOM… kittening hell!
• Ranger pet auto attacks should clear conditions
• Ranger should get condition removal on evade!

Other ranger problems:

• wasting defensive utilities just to clear conditions (2 condi remove on survival skills use), is pointless, because as ranger your survival is very dependent on saving this skills for something else then removing conditions! This type of play style only benefits condition rangers and NOTHING ELSE.. which is dumb.
  
  
  ANET NOTE: If you want to make your game more eSports…. STOP more RNG into the combat mode! It’s ruining fun and start working on active combat! You still have a lot of work to do to make this combat eSports worthy! So chop chop!

active blocking with extreme low cooldown
active quick interruptions
active pets, GIVE US MORE CONTROL!

Madisonlee.9641:

The OP is correct here. Some classes literally don’t have the condi cleanse to deal with the burn meta.

My mesmer does, by taking inspiration line it’s not a problem which is why mesmer is good against a cele ele for example. On mesmer when taking that line I can’t be killed by conditions 1v1.

Now let’s talk about my ranger; on ranger I take healing spring traited (pulse 2 condi removes) and 2 survival utilities for on demand 2 condi removals. That seems like a lot of cleanse right? Well, for a short while until the cele ele starts timing the fire attunement or burn guard burst you when spring is on CD, then you basically have to run or die. I could go all survival utility route and do no damage, all for the sake of cleansing. But it’s awkward and inefficient.

Some classes just don’t have great ways of getting the burning off. Should it be this way? I don’t know. The only class I really see being a problem is cele d/d ele. The other burning classes can smartly be dealt with and have sufficient weaknesses. Cele ele does not, and I think that spec in itself needs attention before burning is tweaked.

Wrong on the survival route. In the 1 v 1 sense, not tpvp, an equally skilled settlers ranger will beat the d/d cele ele. Already tested. Just practice more.

@Firel
Hate to be that guy but l2p.

Firelysm.4967:

abc.5790:

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

And rangers, wowowowow.. what ???
Rangers have literally the worst condi cleansing in the game currently.
We have 3 condi removel in 10 sec interval, where we don’t have a clue when this cleanse will happen, this means you’ll already eat 5-6 sec of burn which is crucial OR your pet will get those conditions and will instantly die of burning unless you are running bear or drakes.. LOL

Then we have survival skills to remove condis, really? The last thing ranger should do is waste utility stun break or any survival skill just for condi cleanse. RANGER NEEDS utility to play, not to use them for cleansing condis..

Condition melee ranger with s/t + a/d is fine, because you run signet + remove on survival skill use, because you use 3-4 survival skills anyways. BUT… to be fair if you expect power ranger to run more then 2 utilities that are survival you are wrong, because with current meta, this is IMPOSSIBLE and rangers are literally on the worst position currently to deal with this kind of problems.

Sadly game does have mechanics to prevent power damage, and we know how to deal with power builds, but in condition cases, anet did not provide enough condition clears for classes to make this fights equal, CONDI vs POWER. SO i hope anet got a call from this lecture..

You gotta be kidding me. Wilderness Survival is a must in this meta. Maybe you should re-kitten how you play a ranger. Im glad burning damage exist because ppl like you run brain-dead dps heavy builds with no consideration to cleansing. Then come here and complain.

This thread is about condi cleansing. On my ranger, the only class I’m 50/50 beating is Mesmer. Everyone else falls – condi or dps build. Rangers have amazing condi removal.

Pride.1734:

abc.5790:

This thread is about cleansing burn damage. As an engie, I have no problem with cleansing burn damage.

As a 2.5 years engi main i find that sinceerly hard to believe if you have been playing against competent opponents.

Maybe you missed the memo about engies having better condi removal after June patch. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the new specializations.

I love when people complain about Ring of Fire. It’s not like it is giant burning circle of fire that is very visible and only applies a lot of burning when you walk back and forth over it…oh wait, that’s exactly what it is. I have honestly never had Ring of Fire apply more than 3 stacks to me. But what I have seen is a ton of people trying to kite the elementalist in and out of the ring over and over. OP burning didn’t kill you, the ele didn’t kill you, that’s as close to killing yourself you can get without jumping off a cliff.

Burn is strong, but honestly I prefer it now that classes can’t really get away with running 0 condition removal and just bursting condi builds down before really dying. Obviously some classes will struggle more with conditions, but that isn’t for lack of options. People just don’t want to change their build because it worked before.

Necrotize.2974:

I love when people complain about Ring of Fire. It’s not like it is giant burning circle of fire that is very visible and only applies a lot of burning when you walk back and forth over it…oh wait, that’s exactly what it is. I have honestly never had Ring of Fire apply more than 3 stacks to me. But what I have seen is a ton of people trying to kite the elementalist in and out of the ring over and over. OP burning didn’t kill you, the ele didn’t kill you, that’s as close to killing yourself you can get without jumping off a cliff.

Burn is strong, but honestly I prefer it now that classes can’t really get away with running 0 condition removal and just bursting condi builds down before really dying. Obviously some classes will struggle more with conditions, but that isn’t for lack of options. People just don’t want to change their build because it worked before.

With cele gear and maybe a few might that’s 3 stacks for 5 seconds, which equates to 4500 dmg (after initial impact) fora. Single application. No need to walk back and forth for it to be highly effective. And in a game where you’re forced to fight on a point, a 50% uptime ring that can deal 4500 damage with one application is a lot of haphazard damage. Elementalistd like to throw around buzzwords like “learn2play” then defend the easiest haphazard damage field in the game, also ignoring the fact that they have an extended melted range. If they dance around their fire rings, it becomes much less of a “l2p” issue. People can’t just spam evades/dodge roles everything they need to cross a line that has 50% uptime.

Why is it that a everyone else has to learn to play, or so they like to say, but Elementalists don’t, and get to keep their massive silly haphazard damage. I’m sure anyone would like a 50% uptime ring that has the capability of doing 4.5k damage every time someone ends up hitting it on a point fight…

ronpierce.2760:

Necrotize.2974:

I love when people complain about Ring of Fire. It’s not like it is giant burning circle of fire that is very visible and only applies a lot of burning when you walk back and forth over it…oh wait, that’s exactly what it is. I have honestly never had Ring of Fire apply more than 3 stacks to me. But what I have seen is a ton of people trying to kite the elementalist in and out of the ring over and over. OP burning didn’t kill you, the ele didn’t kill you, that’s as close to killing yourself you can get without jumping off a cliff.

Burn is strong, but honestly I prefer it now that classes can’t really get away with running 0 condition removal and just bursting condi builds down before really dying. Obviously some classes will struggle more with conditions, but that isn’t for lack of options. People just don’t want to change their build because it worked before.

With cele gear and maybe a few might that’s 3 stacks for 5 seconds, which equates to 4500 dmg (after initial impact) fora. Single application. No need to walk back and forth for it to be highly effective. And in a game where you’re forced to fight on a point, a 50% uptime ring that can deal 4500 damage with one application is a lot of haphazard damage. Elementalistd like to throw around buzzwords like “learn2play” then defend the easiest haphazard damage field in the game, also ignoring the fact that they have an extended melted range. If they dance around their fire rings, it becomes much less of a “l2p” issue. People can’t just spam evades/dodge roles everything they need to cross a line that has 50% uptime.

Why is it that a everyone else has to learn to play, or so they like to say, but Elementalists don’t, and get to keep their massive silly haphazard damage. I’m sure anyone would like a 50% uptime ring that has the capability of doing 4.5k damage every time someone ends up hitting it on a point fight…

Burning is pretty much the only constantly threatening condition and it is only applied by ele’s while they’re in Fire Attunement(save for Cleansing Fire). Even with only one cleanse, waiting till the ele leaves fire or uses their main fire skills to cleanse isn’t that hard. In fact, the biggest damage dealers for Cele ele are in fire, condi or power.

I don’t really play much ele much, but I fight them pretty frequently and burning is rarely the issue. At worst, they stack burns on me, I eat one tick then cleanse them. If the burns are ticking on you for the full duration, then you’re either not running enough removal(thus not adapting to the meta) or you got outplayed. Prior to the change, conditions as a whole felt kinda underwhelming unless you could apply a lot of different conditions all at once, now at least there’s some bursting potential. Too many people are just clutching onto their pre-patch builds and don’t run nearly enough condition removal and still expect to be strong against classes that pack on the burns.

abc.5790:

Firelysm.4967:

abc.5790:

eles have insta cast cleanses as do guards and warriors and rangers and engies not just mesmers

im sorry but this is really a l2p issue and we shouldn’t balance classes based on what happens in hotjoin.

And rangers, wowowowow.. what ???
Rangers have literally the worst condi cleansing in the game currently.
We have 3 condi removel in 10 sec interval, where we don’t have a clue when this cleanse will happen, this means you’ll already eat 5-6 sec of burn which is crucial OR your pet will get those conditions and will instantly die of burning unless you are running bear or drakes.. LOL

Then we have survival skills to remove condis, really? The last thing ranger should do is waste utility stun break or any survival skill just for condi cleanse. RANGER NEEDS utility to play, not to use them for cleansing condis..

Condition melee ranger with s/t + a/d is fine, because you run signet + remove on survival skill use, because you use 3-4 survival skills anyways. BUT… to be fair if you expect power ranger to run more then 2 utilities that are survival you are wrong, because with current meta, this is IMPOSSIBLE and rangers are literally on the worst position currently to deal with this kind of problems.

Sadly game does have mechanics to prevent power damage, and we know how to deal with power builds, but in condition cases, anet did not provide enough condition clears for classes to make this fights equal, CONDI vs POWER. SO i hope anet got a call from this lecture..

You gotta be kidding me. Wilderness Survival is a must in this meta. Maybe you should re-kitten how you play a ranger. Im glad burning damage exist because ppl like you run brain-dead dps heavy builds with no consideration to cleansing. Then come here and complain.

This thread is about condi cleansing. On my ranger, the only class I’m 50/50 beating is Mesmer. Everyone else falls – condi or dps build. Rangers have amazing condi removal.

Who said i don’t run it, you monkeys have to learn to read arguments LOL.
And in my opinion you are only one big mouth, and in reality you lick grass more then stomp any1.

ronpierce.2760:

Saiyan.1704:

ronpierce.2760:

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

All they need to do is halve the damage and double the duration, so its closer to 2:1 of bleed rather than 4:1 in terms of damage, which would keep it as the “high damage” condition, but better fit the theme of conditions not being about burst but rolling damage that needs to be (smartly!!) removed. Right now, if you get burning on you, you basically have to get it off of you right now or you will die. That’s counter to condition design.

As for pve, would be a slight nerf at the start of fights, but as long as the duration is there, it’d just stack up higher, wouldn’t make a super huge difference, but still a bit of a nerf. Burning still out-does every other condition there, too, so maybe it’s justified.

Why do that when there is, arguably, only one class who makes burning seem op? People say nerf burning then complain about the Ele and not so much about engi, guard and rangers.

Burning is very powerful on just about anyone who uses it, Burn Guardians, even Engineer. Elementalists, yes make it a bit ridiculous. The problem with those “others” where burning is “fine” has less to do with how strong or not strong Burning is, but other contributing factors. Burn guardians have little-to-no coverage, Engineers tend to be easier to kill and harder to land (especially pistol 5 which seems to have a buggy hitbox). But even then, they manage to still be “okay” (not great) simply due to the power of Burning. If burn Guardians had decent condition coverage it’d be absolutely bonkers. Similarly, change all the burns Elementalist has to Bleeding and suddenly it wouldn’t be nearly as potent.

That said, burn is still too strong. Perhaps condition oriented guardians could use a better mix-of-access or better ways to re-apply after a burst to keep some sustain conditions. There are ways to bring things up and still bring burning down to an appropriate level, and ensure builds aren’t one-trick ponies.

The fact that burn guard can even be considered a “thing” at all with their single-type condition stacking (for the most part) without a single damage condition on any of their auto attacks should say something as to how powerful burns are alone. Burns basically carry that build, which should be helped in other ways to be less niche.

All I’m saying is burning, is too strong compared to other conditions. It’s basic math.
“Bleeding – 0.06 22 per stack per second +6 per stack per second

Burning – .155 131.5 per stack per second +15.5 per stack per second"

A single burn without condition damage (base) is 6! times a base bleed, and scales almost 3x as fast. This is how you get celestial damage that is so high, and in general, conditions should not be this bursty.

Long story short: Burns VASTLY out-class every other condition, have too high of a base and are counter to the condition design of timing cleanses, requiring immediate removal at all times. Burn Guardian issue is less of an issue simply because only 1-2 conditions ever need to be removed, and they still manage to be fairly strong, which is pretty amazing if you ask me, and should honestly have other considerations instead, such as a trait that adds a stacking damage component to vulnerability the Guardian applies, to keep it within the Guardian theme, just as a random idea.

You keep saying that burning is so op that burn guards are suddenly now viable with it. That’s simply not true. We were always viable.

The Burn condition mechanic prepatch was counter intuitive. Our 800-1k burn ticks were getting masked by Eles/Wars/Engi etc. Increasing F1 procs (permeating wrath) only increased burn duration… This meant that our 20s worth of burn damage could get cleansed within a couple of seconds. And if they didn’t, well, that’s how we were able to 1v2 and even 1v3.

We were 1v1 Gods (with the exception of certain Eles and Mesmers) because we had the appropriate burn applications through our blocks. We died in TPvP because we lacked additional burn applications unlike our 1v1 fights. People thought we needed more condition coverages but we really only need burn procs.

My point is, burn guardians have always performed well. The change was that we received a nerf in 1v1 (we needed it) and became viable in tpvp (needed that too) thanks to the burn mechanic as well as more burn procs (they listened!). Like you said, burn guardian’s cons/weaknesses is what makes our build fair.

Photinous.4628:

Honestly, burning is fine and I highly doubt Anet will nerf it since it will destroy several builds in both PvE and PvP. Any mesmer running inspiration should have enough cleanse to deal with it and enough evades/stealth/invulns to avoid it.

Burning is fine. Stacking of burns is NOT fine.

abc.5790:

Pride.1734:

abc.5790:

This thread is about cleansing burn damage. As an engie, I have no problem with cleansing burn damage.

As a 2.5 years engi main i find that sinceerly hard to believe if you have been playing against competent opponents.

Maybe you missed the memo about engies having better condi removal after June patch. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the new specializations.

The guy who posted below me even explained it already. We can remove singe condis allright-ish( mind you still not great) but burning gets applied like candy and competent players also apply some cover there is a good chance we cleanse the wrong one and die. Either you really are trolling or play against poor opposition.

Well if you’ve been playing engie for 2.5 yrs, I’m surprised that you aren’t familiar with the trait specialization that offers engies sustain and additional cleansing. It’s a bit more obvious now that traits are simplified.

Only elementalist RoF gets applied like candy but even that can be avoided.

You don’t negate burns from cleanses alone. Being in constant motion makes it harder for them to land their skills. You don’t just stand in the middle like a sore thumb. You can dodge and even interrupt their burn application.

The high stacks do not come from a single skill like many of you complain and whine about. If you cant break away from the succession of burn application, then yeah it’s a l2p issue

abc.5790:

Well if you’ve been playing engie for 2.5 yrs, I’m surprised that you aren’t familiar with the trait specialization that offers engies sustain and additional cleansing. It’s a bit more obvious now that traits are simplified.

Only elementalist RoF gets applied like candy but even that can be avoided.

You don’t negate burns from cleanses alone. Being in constant motion makes it harder for them to land their skills. You don’t just stand in the middle like a sore thumb. You can dodge and even interrupt their burn application.

The high stacks do not come from a single skill like many of you complain and whine about. If you cant break away from the succession of burn application, then yeah it’s a l2p issue

care to elaborate on which trait helps with cleansing conditions on an engi?

Obviously a troll. Everyone, Engi is super strong against condis! We can cleanse every condi burst on demnand! We also have no problem with cover conditions! And all our condiclears have super low dooldown so can constanly cleanse! /sarcasm

Lettuce.2945:

Wrong on the survival route. In the 1 v 1 sense, not tpvp, an equally skilled settlers ranger will beat the d/d cele ele. Already tested. Just practice more.

What do you mean by in the 1v1 sense, not tpvp? Are you talking about WvW? I heard there are classes that can beat d/d ele in WvW, but this is Spvp forum.

Condi ranger cannot beat a cele d/d ele right now, no matter what cleansing options you choose. They can beat bad ones o.O if that’s who you “tested” this on lol…

Unless you meant off point? You might be able to beat one off point by just dodging the hell away from fire attunement attacks since you don’t worry about capping, but a good elementalist off point will still not let you kill them…so I’m pretty sure your “tests” were with dueling bads lol

Madisonlee.9641:

Lettuce.2945:

Wrong on the survival route. In the 1 v 1 sense, not tpvp, an equally skilled settlers ranger will beat the d/d cele ele. Already tested. Just practice more.

What do you mean by in the 1v1 sense, not tpvp? Are you talking about WvW? I heard there are classes that can beat d/d ele in WvW, but this is Spvp forum.

Condi ranger cannot beat a cele d/d ele right now, no matter what cleansing options you choose. They can beat bad ones o.O if that’s who you “tested” this on lol…

Unless you meant off point? You might be able to beat one off point by just dodging the hell away from fire attunement attacks since you don’t worry about capping, but a good elementalist off point will still not let you kill them…so I’m pretty sure your “tests” were with dueling bads lol

This is in spvp on a dueling server. The duel between the ele/ranger took over 15 minutes but the ranger ended up outsustaining/pressuring the ele. Granted, no one fights that long in a ranked match. But my point is thus, eles do have counters. The problem is that it just takes too long regardless to kill one. And my point was addressed to that guy…That wilderness isn’t useless…But rather required for rangers to be even viable.

Before you bother typing up an argument, feel free to shoot me a whisper in game before doing so and we can duel.

Edit Dueled. Now you know.

Pride.1734:

Obviously a troll. Everyone, Engi is super strong against condis! We can cleanse every condi burst on demnand! We also have no problem with cover conditions! And all our condiclears have super low dooldown so can constanly cleanse! /sarcasm

Hard to tell if trolling, he seems decent but you never know.

About the cleansing, it’s a trade off. Either have more access to cleansing or have more access to condi pressure. If he’s running a p/p burn build the traits could go firearms/alchemy/inventions or firearms/alchemy/tools.

In general, I do agree that engies aren’t the best at cleansing. The light field from the mortar is another source of cleansing but it’s not the elite I use.

lol what did I say that was troll-y?

whatever

I still <3 y’all

cheers!

The problem is not cast time on cleanses. One and a half sec max for cast time u eat maybe two ticks and thats an extreme example. If you have good reaction u won’t take much damage from it even if it does have cast. Now the reapplication of condis is something to consider but if ur facing a condi build u should never be able to cleanse so much that u don’t die. If you could condi builds wouldn’t work and in a condi build condis are ur damage. If ur both not super tanky one of u is supposed to die if u don’t kill the other in a timely manner. If you run no cleanse you should be punished for it. Just like if u run a super squishy build u should be aware that physical damage will take u out easily.

Burning is simply completely out of hand right now. My engineer isn’t even specced fully for pure burning damage and I can get 15k burn damage off of pistol 4 on my turret build.

Shala.8352:

Totaly agree with all of this. But the main problem i already said thousand times is not the fact we dont have enough condi cleanser on demand, is the fact that condi can be applied too much in this game, plus the fact condi should never burst. Its a support damage, every build that has condi damage as the main source of damage should be checked, cuz its wrong.

People always say this, but clearly that isn’t true. Conditions are a main way of getting dps, and with the changes to burns it’s pretty clear they want you to be able to burst condi. They’ve never said it was a support type of damage, so it is probably rational to stop thinking of it as such.

On to the topic:

Burn damage might be a little and I mean a little bit high right now, but the main problem is d/d cele eles burn. Maybe burn guard is a little strong, but not terrible and everything else is fine. Yes, some classes might not be able to deal with conditions well enough. Fix that, don’t make conditions useless and secondary as many suggest.

I’ ve the feeling warrior torch will join the burning brainless train