Guild Wars 2

We’re all whining on burning, on how it’s OP, posting pictures and all, what about actual math???
I made them ,though I suck at math, it’s not my talent, but STILL, I made them and I think (from the tests) the actual numbers are not so stretched out

• NUMBERS & STATS

• CELE ELE WITH RUNE OF STRENGTH

The burning formula is (0.155 * condi damage) + 131.5 per stack

A cele D/D ele has 5 skills to apply burning:
A cele ele sits at 15 might with his eyes closed
1010 condi damage with might
How does that affect burning?
288.05 per tick of burning
Our cele might stacked ele deals 288 per tick of burning not bad.
Which skills applies burning:

• Drake’s breath (4 stack for 3 seconds) 5 second CD
• Burning speed (one stack 1 and 1/2 sec) 15 second CD
• Ring of Fire (3 stacks for 5 seconds each time you go through the ring) 15 second CD
• Flame burst of evasive arcana (2 stacks for 6 seconds)10 CD (available on each attunment swap)
• Cleansing fire (3 stacks for 4 seconds) 32 CD
  So on average he has one burning skill per 15 1/2 second
  On average his burning skills are on a duration of 4 second (it’s a tidsy bit lower than that)
  On average you give 3 stack of burning

Here’s your average Cantrip Cele on Strength rune. You sit at a perma 15 might without even trying and you have 5 skills that deals burning, From Drake’s breath 5 CD to Cleansing Fire 32 CD
So on average he has one burning skill per 15 1/2 second
On average his burning skills are on a duration of 4 second (it’s a tidsy bit lower than that)
On average you give 3 stack of burning
so, on average, a cele ele with 15 might deals 864.15 DoT per second.
On average, if someone has no means of clearing the stack it’s a full 3888.675 DoT of burning
Let’s be honest, no one will leave a full 4 second of burning
So 3 stacks for 2 seconds: 1728.3 DoT of burning
2 stacks for 4 seconds: 2304.4 DoT of burning
2 stacks for 2 seconds: 1152.2 DoT of burning

I think human reflex, unless mitigating circumstances, will make someone get 2 stack of burning ON AVERAGE (pure supposition, not tested), and will make it clear quite fast, but AT LEAST tick once or twice…
Still that’s not even condi…

It’s pure cele bruiser with might stack dealing 864 on 15 might stack I’m not even shy of saying that perma 20 or even perma 22 is not far of a stretch without even Pyromancer puissance.
A bruiser/power type class deals on average over 800 per second on 3 stacks of one condition on an amount of might that a good ele can maintain with his eyes closed
You’re not even specced to even TRY at condi, yet you deal around what I can achieve with 6 stacks of confusion from my mesmer sitting at 1200 condi damage…

• CONDI ELE WITH RUNE OF STRENGTH

If I trait my ele on a purely burning/condi speck in earth/fire/x with rabid amulet and rune of strength
Fire: Burning precision/Power Overwhelming/Pyromancer’s puissance
Earth: x/Strength of stone/x
With 15 might stack and the 10% from power (which also increased from might) I have 1972 condi damage.
I deal 437.16 per tick from burning alone
If I take my average from before:
Take into account that my burning duration is increased ny 10%

• Drake’s breath (4 stack for 3 1/2 seconds) 5 second CD
• Burning speed (one stack 1 and 1/2 sec) 15 second CD
• Ring of Fire (3 stacks for 6 seconds each time you go through the ring) 15 second CD
• Flame burst of evasive arcana (2 stacks for 7 1/4 seconds)10 CD (available on each attunment swap)
• Cleansing fire (3 stacks for 4 3/4 seconds) 32 CD
  The average CD and burning per CD is the same
  On average your burning skills are on a duration of 4.6 second
  On average you give 3 stack of burning
  That’s 1311.48 DoT per second on 3 stacks
  That’s a total of 6032.808 on 4.6 seconds for 3 stacks of burning

• Average cleansing from foe based on cele statistics

Let’s take another cele ele running the same setup
has 9 clear condis (I’ll leave the elite out because the CD messes everything)

• Water attunment (1 condi) 8 CD
• Cleansing Wave (1 condi on dodge) 10 CD
• Cleansing Wave (1 condi) 40 CD
• Lightning Flash (1 condi) 32 CD
• Cleansing Fire (4 condi) 32 CD
• Armor of Earth (1 condi) 60 CD
  That’s around 1 condi per 19 1/2 seconds

So on average, in an ele vs an ele scenario one can stack burning around 1 1/4 time faster than what another cele ele can remove… *
So on average, a cele ele will eat a full average stack of average burning from another cele… and *hold it for the 1/4 of the time (one second or one tick) before cleaning it and having it reapplied…
*A cele ele eats 864,15 of burning before cleansing it.
Something easily healed but that’s without all the raw DPS and other condis in the mix

Now here’s a shatter mesmer running inspiration with restorative illusion, rune of ogre, zerker amulet and ether feast
He has 5 cleanse condis (which 2 of them happens to be offensive skills as well):

• Mind Wrack (1 condi) 12 CD
• Cry of frustration (1 condi) 25 CD
• Diversion (1 condi) 38 CD
• Distortion (1 condi) 50 CD
• Ether Feaste (1 condi) 20 CD
  That’s 1 condi on an average of 29 CD

A cele ele stacks burning 1.87 times faster than what the mesmer can cleanse
So a mesmer will eat 3.48 seconds of 3 burning stacks before being able to clean it on average
That’s 3.7k of burning on average… without raw dps without other condis to cleanse

A signet boonshare mesmer (Draft 2 of chaos maestro build v2.0) has 12 condi cleanse

• Mind Wrack (1 condi) 12 CD
• Cry of frustration (1 condi) 25 CD
• Diversion (1 condi) 38 CD
• Distortion (1 condi) 50 CD
• Mirror (1 condi) 12 CD
• Signet of Inspiration (1 condi) 24 CD
• Signet of Midnight (1 condi) 24 CD
• Signet of Illusion (1 condi) 48 CD (RESETS SHATTER)

That’s still 1 condi on an average of 29 CD
A cele ele stacks burning 1.87 times faster than what the mesmer can cleanse
So a mesmer will eat 3.48 seconds of 3 burning stacks before being able to clean it on average
That’s 3.7k of burning on average… without raw dps without other condis to cleanse

We’re not in a teamfight, we’re not a burning guard, and we’re not calculating the actual percentage of skill miss/blind/block/evade the other person may do.
We’re just calculating based on formulas and numbers from the game the actual pure dps of Burning

FEEL FREE TO ADD DATA FROM YOUR OWN CLASS I DON’T KNOW THE OTHERS

• Hypothetical Bleed VS Burn

Just to give a bit of a comparison, let’s replace burning, here, with bleeding formula (let’s say that all burning skills from ele are replaced with bleeding just for fun)
Formula is:
Bleeding: (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22
Burning: (0.155 * Condi damage) + 131.5 per stack
My cele ele with 15 might stack deals (1010 condi damage):
82.6 bleeding per tick VS 288.05 per tick of burning
247.8 per second on 3 stacks VS 864.15 per second on 3 stacks
On average foe who ate the full four seconds will take:
991.2 DoT of bleeding VS 3456.6 DoT of Burning
almost 3.5 more burning DoT than bleeding

My condi/bleeding ele with 15 might stack (1972 condi damage):
140.32 bleeding per tick VS 437.16 Burning per tick
420.96 per second on 3 stacks VS 1311.48 per second on 3 stacks
On average foe who ate the full 4.6 seconds will take:
1936 DoT of bleeding VS 6032.808
Here we have a burning 3.11 times the amount of bleeding

When a condition is so superior that it deals 3 times the amount of damage FROM THE SAME STATS,
What does that tell you?

Well of course the burning formula does more damage than bleeding, but replacing burning by bleeding in the same skills isn’t a fair comparison.

I agree that burning is now out of control. Guardians, elementalists and Pistol/Pistol + flamethrower + bomb engis can pump out crazy amount of burning stacks which do massive armor ignoring damage. Most builds cannot just cleanse even half of the condition stacks. I feel that the burning on warrior LB is fairly balanced though.

Instead of nerfing burning to the ground Arenanet should look at the most offending traits, builds and skills and adjust them (guardian and elementalist come to my mind first).

Deniara Devious.3948:

Well of course the burning formula does more damage than bleeding, but replacing burning by bleeding in the same skills isn’t a fair comparison.

I agree that burning is now out of control. Guardians, elementalists and Pistol/Pistol + flamethrower + bomb engis can pump out crazy amount of burning stacks which do massive armor ignoring damage. Most builds cannot just cleanse even half of the condition stacks. I feel that the burning on warrior LB is fairly balanced though.

Instead of nerfing burning to the ground Arenanet should look at the most offending traits, builds and skills and adjust them (guardian and elementalist come to my mind first).

Ah, aside from math, I totally agree that some skills / traits need a complete recalculation of damage formula.

Even without the math, from just the TOOL TIP, you can see that each of those skills stating that it does around 8k~12k burning damage from ONE SKILL if you do not cleanse it. Problem is it doesn’t take 15~20 secs for that 8~12k damage, it usually takes 4 secs to complete the damage under the new burning stacking system.

They simply either need to tone down the formula, add some diminishing return on high stack, or just basically rework on how many stacks a skill apply burning on a target. They could increase the duration of burn, while decreases the burning stack of some skills. So people will have a more sustain and less bursty type of burning.

Appreciate the well drawn out post.

We’re playing with fire here (literally) because we could completely make it ever more unbalanced and frustrating in a 1v1 perspective (more than it already is..) just to better a solo player’s experiemce in spvp, when engaging a guardian + ele burn stack composition.

I will tell you that, right now, burn guard is no longer all that great in 1v1’s. Especially against a Engi, necro, mesmers and Eles. That bar lowered drastically. We do however, excell better in tpvp/solo pvp because of our multiple burn-on-hit group scenarios. All of which is caused by torch #5 and Whirling Wrath (retal still hurts) and Purging Flames’s Finisher Combo. It’s a hit or miss with Purging Flames and Judge’s intervention. These two skills are easily noticeable and counterable.

As much as I want to better these player’s experience on the matter, I feel burns are still subpar considering the amount of cleanses a syncronized team has to offer; as well as, the counter play we receive. That said, I can’t vouche for other classes such as Ele’s or Mesmers. The real question is, how can we have conditions/burns work in competitive play without frustrating all the unorganized solo players? Maybe emphasize more AR guards, eles or necros on a team when there are none? I guess that’s why they call it the Metagame… everyone’s hooked up on the new Marauder – high burst – hype but fail to see what their solo team really requires in their composition. Also, looking at allies conditions help; my Torch #5’s party cleanse conditions is incredibly helpful now.

Imo burn needs to come down but only by a tiny bit. I actually think bleeds need a slight boost. I had a ranger get 13 stacks of psn on me and it took 15k off of me in 3 ticks.

I honestly find mesmer atm to have a far bigger advantage then anything else. Engy and guardians that are good at stacking fire are also pretty squishy themselves. Mesmers on the other hand stack insane amounts of condi/ can do interupts/ distortion/invisibility/ and so with all that i dont know how you fix conditions without killing something.

Another thing too is offensive condi dmg is needed since pure bunkers are insane. Necro/ele/guardian bunkers need at least 2 people to take one down and even then it could take well over a minute. So i rather see burns be op rather then nerfed into the ground which is usually what happens when enough people on the forum scream enough.

Bleeding:
New damage over time: 2 + (0.25 * Level) + (0.06 * Condition Damage)
600 – 22 + 36 = 58
900 – 22 + 54 = 76
1200- 22 + 72 = 94
Burning:

New damage over time: 7.5 + (1.55 * Level) + (0.155 * Condition Damage)
600 – 131.5 + 93 = 224.5
900 – 131.5 + 139.5 = 271
1200- 131.5 + 186 = 317.5
Confusion:
New damage over time: 2 + (0.1 * Level) + (0.035 * Condition Damage)
600 – 10 + 21 = 31
900 – 10 + 31.5 = 41.5
1200- 10 + 42 = 52
New trigger damage: 3.5 + (0.575 * Level) + (0.0625 * Condition Damage)
600 – 49.5 + 37.5 = 87
900 – 49.5 + 56.25 = 105.75
1200- 49.5 + 75 = 124.5
Poison:
New damage over time: 3.5 + (0.375 * Level) + (0.06 * Condition Damage)
600 – 33.5 + 36 = 69.5
900 – 33.5 + 54 = 87.5
1200- 33.5 + 72 = 105.5
Torment:
New damage over time: 1.5 + (0.18 * Level) + (0.045 * Condition Damage)
600 – 15.9 + 27 = 42.9
900 – 15.9 + 40.5 = 56.4
1200- 15.9 + 54 = 69.9
New damage while moving: 3 + (0.36 * Level) + (0.09 * Condition Damage)
600 – 31.8 + 54 = 85.8
900 – 31.8 + 81 = 112.8
1200- 31.8 + 108 = 139.8

The base on burning is better than the combined damage of any other condition at 1200 condition damage (save moving torment, which edges it out by ~6%).

I don’t want to speak In absolutes (again, the patch is still very new), but it certainly looks like burning needs to be toned down in to various degrees in multiple areas (duration via sigils, damage, access to burning) to be anything other than 3+ times as effective as any other condition

Pepsi.8907:

When a condition is so superior that it deals 3 times the amount of damage FROM THE SAME STATS,
What does that tell you?

That Bleed needs to be buffed to Burning level?

Well the Devs have already stated that conditions are doing more damage than intended. You have to remember condition damage is passive, if it equals direct damage (which actually takes more skill to do) you’re taking a lot of skill out of the game. The Devs kept saying they wanted more active play damage in game, so why they introduced these levels of untested condi damage is beyond me. For the record no way should passive condi damage equal direct damage, it should be attritional only, so you have to work for your damage like everyone else.

Also I have regularly seen 5-6 stacks of burning on players, and more if they have been immobilised/dazed/stunned/knocked down. This is may be okay for classes that can have lots of condi clearing, can hit like a brickhouse, and still having plenty of sustain. But that is not always the case.

There is a couple things wrong with your statistics.

Any ele fighting with under 20 stacks of might is bad.
Any ele using 3 Cantips is REALLY bad.
Any ele using Rune of Strength is also bad.

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is a couple things wrong with your statistics.

Any ele fighting with under 20 stacks of might is bad.
Any ele using 3 Cantips is REALLY bad.
Any ele using Rune of Strength is also bad.

Nope, this is not true.

Why would you take Hoelbrak if you don’t face a team with high condition application?
Why wouldn’t you take three cantrips? They’re one of the best utilities ele has.
Some builds have tougher time stacking might and getting to 20 stacks will take a while.

800+ burning damage/sec. for every amulet is just insane

Thank you everyone for your input, yes I was aware that directly changing burning for bleeding is not really viable in term of numbers, especially since the duration isn’t the same for the two conditions, yet my main goal was to point out through math how op burning actually is for the accessibility that some class have to stack it (here was ele, but guardian would have been viable too)

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is a couple things wrong with your statistics.

Any ele fighting with under 20 stacks of might is bad.
Any ele using 3 Cantips is REALLY bad.
Any ele using Rune of Strength is also bad.

I don’t see where you take your assumptions, some builds have a harder time stacking might and, as I said, I wanted to use a number of stack people in DC could achieve very very easily even if they mess up their rotation: hence 15. I could have used 25, but it’s not permanent and harder to stack… Would have messed up with the data I was trying to gather for the sake of giving higher numbers… Not my goal

I don’t see where you take your idea that triple cantrip is bad. The synergy for cantrip is one of the best offered to ele all over their tree, added to actually very useful utilities, you may want to review your judgment and opinion

I don’t get how a flat 45% might duration increase added to a flat 4-5% damage increase under might is bad… Really? It s one of the best rune to use for a D/D ele simply because it make might stack so easy for an ele. Is it the only one? No. But synergy, again, is great…

Your opinions are personal, however the forum community and meta build that has been existing for awhile disagrees with you…

Try making the post based on a guard :P.

I’ll throw in guard cleanses. Assuming valor/virtues/x with smiters boon and absolute resolution:

Smite condition (1 condition) every 16 seconds.
Shelter (1 condition) every 30 seconds.
Contemplation of purity (unlimited) every 48 seconds.
Absolute resolution (3 conditions) every -need to check CD again-.

If the guard is running shouts instead with honor/virtues/x and trooper runes:

2 conditions cleansed per shout with 4 shouts (I’m not sure anyone uses any non-shelter heal).

I’ll double check the shout CDs and get back to you.

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is a couple things wrong with your statistics.

Any ele fighting with under 20 stacks of might is bad.
Any ele using 3 Cantips is REALLY bad. ?
Any ele using Rune of Strength is also bad. ?

kitten , Im 2 out of 3 bad.

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is a couple things wrong with your statistics.

Any ele fighting with under 20 stacks of might is bad.
Any ele using 3 Cantips is REALLY bad.
Any ele using Rune of Strength is also bad.

Phantaram has to be the worst Ele in game then.

I’ll try to do guard ahah but ice never played it, I’ll ask my friends for builds and such and come back with something ^. ^

I’ll give you a raw burn build if you want, although saiyan would probably give you a much better guide.

Radiance/zeal/virtues

In radiance, you take right hand strength, the torch burn trait and amplified wrath.

In zeal, you take fiery wrath, kindled zeal, and shattered aegis (would’ve been symbolic avenger if anet didn’t shut the trait down).

In virtues, you take master of consectrations, supreme justice, and the stability on courage (ermagherd not permeating wrath). You can take permeating wrath instead, but I find stability just too good to pass up.

As for rune choice, you can take any burn duration runes (Balthazar, fire, flame legion, etc) but I prefer traveler.

As for amulet choice, you can take rampager for an amazing amount of damage with 0 sustain. Personally though, celestial is looking too good. I generally don’t advise on carrion (although it provides really good condition damage and adequate power) because you can’t crit and crits are what makes power damage what it is.

As for sigils, I like air and earth. I prefer earth to geomancy because Im not forced to swap weapons for DPS before I absolutely want to.

As for weapon choices, I take scepter/torch and mace/focus. I really enjoy mace and focus because its just so good in regards to when you absolutely need to defend. Dropping down the mace symbol for a little extra healing, coupled with the blocks from mace and focus that proc with amplified wrath and supreme justice making it easier to proc VoJ more, you’re still capable of dealing damage while defending.

For utilities, I like shelter, purging flames, wall of reflection, sanctuary, and renewed focus. Now, I am adamant in my belief that judges intervention is an irreplaceable utility for guard, but I decided to go out in a limb and experiment.

Purging flames is rather obvious. More burn every time someone crosses the flame and 3 conditions cleansed every time you cross it (gotta wait for the buff to wear off though, iirc).

Wall of reflection is a real beauty. Dropping it in the middle of a team fight is hilariously debilitating for the enemy. Of course, if you’re not too fond of it, you can replace it with hallowed ground and then take permeating wrath. At this point, your virtues are pretty soft and you may as well take feel my wrath or the elite signet, which you’d be able to cast more or less uninterrupted inside your sanctuary, which would be amazing.

For your last utility, you’ve got sanctuary. Sanctuary is powerful enough to be an elite in my opinion (no surprise it has the same CD as renewed focus). Sanctuary is insanely sweet. If you’re coordinated enough, you can get the necro in your team to plant himself on the point and then you can support the kitten out of him.

The elites are fairly basic.

Your initial burst is usually smite>chains>torch4 x2 assuming the torch trait in radiance procs. This stacks around 8 burn dealing 2k+ burn. You can hit 11 easy if you throw in purging flames, but it has too many uses to just waste at the start of the fight.

You swap to mace/focus when you’re feeling pressured. Its about that simple. Cycle your blocks and feel free to waste your VoJ at the end of a fight or on a stomp for free might since a minor in radiance allows it to refresh on each kill.

Permeating Wrath’s cleaves are too good to pass up as a burn guardian. Even Zerker/Marauder Guards are taking it, assuming they’re receiving Stability from another source. The trait is that good.

If it wasn’t for Permeating Wrath, Ele’s would be the only class (can’t vouche for others) with “op” burns and Guards wouldn’t even be mentioned on this thread. Purging Flames and Judge’s Intervention are ridiculously foreseeable and counterable unless you join a finished fight where people already exhausted their condi cleanses.

Without PW, a single target burn proc every 3/5 attacks is just ridiculously lackluster as a burn guard in TPvP. This is my personal experiences with the trait :P

Yea, for sure. Personally though, when I run this, as someone pointed out in game, I play it like a ranger. I usually pick a target being pressured and help clean them up. Chances are, if the person and my team mate are similar in skill level, the surprise 8 stacks of burn quickly shut the fight down. Since I’m not looking to fight more than one target alone, I find being able to toss out the stab really good, since it allows my team to reliably DPS with me tossing out some powerful support. I’m sure you’ve had those moments where a warrior buddy would be charging in to fight two necros and your stab at the right time gave him that extra oomph he needed to resist the fears and eventually rip him down.

Don’t get me wrong, permeating wrath is stupidly good and I’m not using it to put myself on some sort of moral high ground (I believe its the base of every burn guard related complaint), but I felt like tossing in that extra support (that IS what guardians are taken for at the end of the day, right :P?).

It really doesn’t seem like the burning calculation is at fault. It seems more like burn stacks are just too prevalent in some cases.

The formula itself is at fault, the base damage is way too high, giving the opportunity for mediocre condi damage to stack what would be considered high damage normally available only to high condi build
Thus making conditions based build extremely strong in the area regarding burning.
Yes it makes condi build from Guardian and ele viable, but at the moment it’s way too strong

Pepsi.8907:

The formula itself is at fault, the base damage is way too high, giving the opportunity for mediocre condi damage to stack what would be considered high damage normally available only to high condi build
Thus making conditions based build extremely strong in the area regarding burning.
Yes it makes condi build from Guardian and ele viable, but at the moment it’s way too strong

Is everyone who has access to Burning doing too much Burning damage? Or do those classes who are doing the most outrageous amounts get too many stacks of burning on their abilities?

The equation isn’t the only dial to turn on this.

Pepsi.8907:

The formula itself is at fault, the base damage is way too high, giving the opportunity for mediocre condi damage to stack what would be considered high damage normally available only to high condi build
Thus making conditions based build extremely strong in the area regarding burning.
Yes it makes condi build from Guardian and ele viable, but at the moment it’s way too strong

Cogbyrn.7283:

It really doesn’t seem like the burning calculation is at fault. It seems more like burn stacks are just too prevalent in some cases.

Honestly, I don’t think it’s just math.
For starters, there are several different types of rng burn application from traits and skills.

There’s suppose to be other variables like rnd cleanses from traits/skills/sigils that balances this but people don’t choose them. The meta isn’t/hasn’t shifted to that direction.

The question is, are conditions currently viable in TPvP where people are choosing this meta type? If the meta type is indeed unbalanced, then by how much should they change? What area of the game needs these changes and how will it effect the areas who don’t need the change?

I wouldn’t be surprised if they reduced cd of certain condi cleanse skills and said, “There you go”.

Honestly the only problem with burning is that you can stack so much of it so fast.

That can be easily solved by looking at the abilities that apply multiple stacks of burning & reducing the number of stacks applied in exchange for increasing the durations of the burns.

Or they could spread around the boon resistance.
I have been using that on my warrior (warrior and mesmer are only ones who have any ready access to it) and I must say it makes fighting condi builds much much much easier.

Or they could make protection also reduce condi damage (currently it doesn’t)

The first option or a mixture of any of them would go a long way towards making condition builds more of a balanced play style.

Pepsi.8907:

The formula itself is at fault, the base damage is way too high, giving the opportunity for mediocre condi damage to stack what would be considered high damage normally available only to high condi build
Thus making conditions based build extremely strong in the area regarding burning.
Yes it makes condi build from Guardian and ele viable, but at the moment it’s way too strong

This could be another thing they could look at changing.

If they made burning scale almost entirely from + condition damage instead of condi damage & level then it would be less powerful for zerk & celestial builds.

Ragnar: you are right

The problem isn’t the burn’s overall damage. It’s the damage per second.
So I say reduce the stacks by a third and extend the duration 33%.

We are talking about the “burn-classes” right now… I wouldn’t call a nerf on ranger or warrior burn

Aggrostemma.1703:

Ragnar: you are right

The problem isn’t the burn’s overall damage. It’s the damage per second.
So I say reduce the stacks by a third and extend the duration 33%.

We are talking about the “burn-classes” right now… I wouldn’t call a nerf on ranger or warrior burn

I have no problems with a proportionate, higher burn duration, lower burn damage. The only problem is… this will help solo – unsyncronized teams – cleanse quicker, while even further the viability condition classes have in TPvP.
Again, where is the line drawn? I believe a more efficient (from both parties) aproach is possible.

Aggrostemma.1703:

Ragnar: you are right

The problem isn’t the burn’s overall damage. It’s the damage per second.
So I say reduce the stacks by a third and extend the duration 33%.

We are talking about the “burn-classes” right now… I wouldn’t call a nerf on ranger or warrior burn

IDk if I would go as far as a third.

First however I would make burning scale almost entirely with + condition damage and almost none with level.

This would mean it would be near useless if your not running allot of condition damage stat wise.

Second while some reduction to burning damage (with an increase in duration) is probably warranted you have to remember that some classes/specs are extremely reliant on burn damage & lack in the number of other conditions they have access to (guardian & to a lesser extent ele)

SO I would also take a serious look at any burn damage modifiers they have and adjust them as needed after the above change so as to keep their condition builds viable.

Aggrostemma.1703:

Ragnar: you are right

The problem isn’t the burn’s overall damage. It’s the damage per second.
So I say reduce the stacks by a third and extend the duration 33%.

We are talking about the “burn-classes” right now… I wouldn’t call a nerf on ranger or warrior burn

Exactly! I haven’t felt so much pain from war or ranger’s burning than the one from ele or guardian

Pepsi.8907:

Aggrostemma.1703:

Ragnar: you are right

The problem isn’t the burn’s overall damage. It’s the damage per second.
So I say reduce the stacks by a third and extend the duration 33%.

We are talking about the “burn-classes” right now… I wouldn’t call a nerf on ranger or warrior burn

Exactly! I haven’t felt so much pain from war or ranger’s burning than the one from ele or guardian

Because Wars and Rangers have other condition applications. Some are calling condi rangers op… but their roles in TPvP are very specific. I think otherwise.

The thing you guys aren’t admitting.

A warrior and many other classes may not be able to stack as much burning as a guardian or ele but they can also stack a bunch of other conditions.

This means ya they cannot stack as much condition damage as fast but it is also much harder to cleanse all their condition damage where as a guardians can be cleansed in a single cleanse and a ele’s can be cleansed in one or 2.

guardian burn is 100% OP. NEED NERF

zinavlad.7581:

guardian burn is 100% OP. NEED NERF

So… did Guardian channeled his #5 Torch and you just ate it?
Such a surprise that skill with 15s CD could deal as much damage as Spin-2-Win!

If you compare the effect of 2 skills you can try to compare the powerfull combo of the Guardian (Torch skill 4 + judge’s intervention + Purging flames) that bstack 10 Burning.
With a good condition build, you can deal more or less 12k in 4.5 sec. 16k if you crit and reactive Zealot’s fire.
It’s very high. Very very high.
But you have a skill that recharge in 15 sec, another in 32 and another in 28 (and not all condi guard use purging flames, someone like me still prefer Smite Condition for the meditation heal and fury).

Then, look to a warrior combo: Eviscerate + Rush + 100Blades.
Eviscerate can del more or less 8-9k of damage (more if you stack might), then rush can deal 1.5-2k and 100Blades can deal more or less 15k of damage.
It’s more or less 25k of damage in 5 seconds.
And you can reactive eviscerate in 8 sec, 100Blades recharge in 6.5 sec and rush in 32 sec.

Eviscerate can hit a enemy with soldier amulet and protection up, reducing the damage, but a enemy can clean (and sometimes send back) burn. And there’s more classes with a lot of skills (active and passive) that clean conditions than classes with protection. A lot of classes have skills to be immune to damage, but also some classes have skills and traits to be immune to conditions.

About block/blind/dodge both the direct and condition attacks need to hit the enemy, expecially for the guardian, that have only 3 skills to deal it’s big condition damage, out of that he can only stack 1 burn every 3 attacks (in auto attack in the same time a ranger with shortbow can deal more bleed damage)

And if you watch at the direct damage that a thief can deal in 4.5 sec… he can kill a bunker in 4.5 sec XD

Then, Guardian condition damage is very high, burn is very powerfull, but direct damage is still better than burn and other conditions.

zinavlad.7581:

guardian burn is 100% OP. NEED NERF

Bring condition cleanses.

The guardian is solely reliant on burning.

If you have a couple of them then the guardian is SOL.

Meanwhile a ranger, thief or mesmer can put up to 5 conditions on you.
Cleanses cannot keep up with that unless you have a coordinated team with AOE cleanses.

Silv.9207:

If you compare the effect of 2 skills you can try to compare the powerfull combo of the Guardian (Torch skill 4 + judge’s intervention + Purging flames) that bstack 10 Burning.
With a good condition build, you can deal more or less 12k in 4.5 sec. 16k if you crit and reactive Zealot’s fire.
It’s very high. Very very high.
But you have a skill that recharge in 15 sec, another in 32 and another in 28 (and not all condi guard use purging flames, someone like me still prefer Smite Condition for the meditation heal and fury).

Then, look to a warrior combo: Eviscerate + Rush + 100Blades.
Eviscerate can del more or less 8-9k of damage (more if you stack might), then rush can deal 1.5-2k and 100Blades can deal more or less 15k of damage.
It’s more or less 25k of damage in 5 seconds.
And you can reactive eviscerate in 8 sec, 100Blades recharge in 6.5 sec and rush in 32 sec.

Eviscerate can hit a enemy with soldier amulet and protection up, reducing the damage, but a enemy can clean (and sometimes send back) burn. And there’s more classes with a lot of skills (active and passive) that clean conditions than classes with protection. A lot of classes have skills to be immune to damage, but also some classes have skills and traits to be immune to conditions.

About block/blind/dodge both the direct and condition attacks need to hit the enemy, expecially for the guardian, that have only 3 skills to deal it’s big condition damage, out of that he can only stack 1 burn every 3 attacks (in auto attack in the same time a ranger with shortbow can deal more bleed damage)

And if you watch at the direct damage that a thief can deal in 4.5 sec… he can kill a bunker in 4.5 sec XD

Then, Guardian condition damage is very high, burn is very powerfull, but direct damage is still better than burn and other conditions.

but i thought the point of conditions was for sustain and over time damage? Not in a quick burst? the fact that you can burst some one down in under 6 seconds with burn seems to not fit the idea for condis which is supposed to require time. Or is 6 seconds now considered over time and sustained damage? just curious

I don’t know what they now consider over time and burst, but IMO, when it hurts enough that I don’t have the time to clear from the point until I notice the stack (let’s say at 50% health) and aimed to cleanse, it’s a burst